RWT is not beat

[remington]

I'm not going to report my friend in real life for cheating in a video game... grow up. Sure it is against the rules, and I may not like it... but i'm not going to go tattle to jagex about it. I was with my friend through the entire process so no, he doesn't know the methods qeltar.

 

 

 

And don't you think it's quite the step to say someone is evil for cheating in a video game... he may be breaking the rules and in the wrong, but he didn't do anything evil, he cut a corner and bought success in a video game instead of spending countless hours earning it.

 

 

 

Ahhh... Along the lines of "Stop snitching", huh?

 

 

 

Sorry, I would report ANYONE in the game for cheating. The same I would turn in ANY person who broke the law in real life.

 

 

 

Tattling?

 

 

 

No, it's doing the RIGHT THING.

 

 

 

I know it's hard to do sometimes. But that's how people learn responsibility. They get caught, and they learn that breaking the rules has consequences.

 

 

 

What good would reporting my friend do now? He might, might get banned from a video game? This sort of behavior repeats itself buddy, I am doing my friend a favor by not getting him caught... What greater lesson will he learn? Will he come away with more from this experience if I tattle and get him banned, or years down the road if he's done something far more serious and gets caught for that. People will do what they want to, we cannot shape someone elses decisions. Ultimately the final say is theirs.

 

 

 

The good would be:

 

 

 

Jagex would see that their system has a loophole, so they can fix it.

 

 

 

And two; he would hopefully learn a lesson and not do it again. In the very least he will not profit by breaking the rules.

 

 

 

What greater lesson will he learn?

 

 

 

He MIGHT learn that breaking the rules has consequences. And he might now. Unfortunately some people lack the self control to stop certain Machiavellian urges, and if they do, it's up to other's to have the personal responsibility to help stop them.

[remington]

 

But thankfully in a forum discussing Runescape we have a ready source of what is defined as good and bad, or good and evil.

 

 

 

If it's NOT against the rules, it's good.

 

 

 

If it's against the rules, it's bad, or EVIL.

 

 

 

Very easy, Very clear cut.

 

 

 

Remington -- you're replying to a forum troll who is incapable of telling right from wrong. He even thinks Hitler was only evil because he was portrayed that way by his enemies. You'll never get anywhere with him, trust me.

 

 

 

I know.

 

 

 

I remember him from the luring debates before Jagex re-made luring against the rules.

 

 

 

The response was more for other players that may read his response and have any question about it.

[Sly_Wizard]

Oi vey!

 

 

 

You keep bringing this up and I keep responding only to have you ignore it. Anyway, one last time can't hurt (Even though this is off-topic): History is written according to what side of the battle you happen to be on. A classic example of this: Most of the West views Stalin as a genocidal dictator. However, if you live in Russia and have taken part in the recent youth movements, you'd believe he was a great leader who did whatever was necessary to strengthen the country in the face of her enemies.

 

 

 

...But I digress >_>

 

 

 

Edit: By the way, I seem to be able to tell right and wrong apart to the point of not being permmed ;)

 

 

 

(Okay. Seriously. That's enough off-topicness for me.)

[remington]

Oi vey!

 

 

 

You keep bringing this up and I keep responding only to have you ignore it. Anyway, one last time can't hurt (Even though this is off-topic): History is written according to what side of the battle you happen to be on. A classic example of this: Most of the West views Stalin as a genocidal dictator. However, if you live in Russia and have taken part in the recent youth movements, you'd believe he was a great leader who did whatever was necessary to strengthen the country in the face of her enemies.

 

 

 

...But I digress >_>

 

 

 

(Okay. Seriously. That's enough off-topicness for me.)

 

 

 

And you ARE correct with that reply.

 

 

 

History IS written by the victors. And as such in THAT way "good and evil" ARE subjective to which side wins, and which side loses AND which of those 2 sides you happen to be on.

 

 

 

However we are not discussing history.

 

 

 

Nor are we discussing anything were anything is subjective.

 

 

 

We are discussing a privately run game, with a clear set rule base.

 

 

 

This means there are no two sides. There is no ambiguity. There is a game maker that made a game, and made rules for it.

 

 

 

Then there are those that agree to play that game under the rules.

 

 

 

As such such following the rules is "good'.

 

 

 

Breaking them is "evil".

 

 

 

Just as when you play a board game there is no way to confuse the two. What fun is a game if the rules are suddenly "subjective"?

[Sly_Wizard]

When I said "Good and evil are subjective" I merely meant that there's no strict outline as to what constitutes 'good' and what constitutes 'evil', as those definitions commonly change.

 

 

 

Wasn't arguing anything else (Though it seems as if you took it to mean something it wasn't).

[Kill_Thomas9]

 

Anyway, I've always wondered why people hate RWT's so much. They don't impose on your gameplay in any way, shape or form nor do they impose on Jagex as real money isn't going through Jagex; Just the parties involved.

 

 

 

Sorry, but I have to point out a major flaw in your reasoning.

 

 

 

The RWT's do impose on our gameplay. The RWT's are the ones who actually do the macroing. I'll inform you how the system works incase you dont know:

 

 

 

Lets say someone is interested in Real World Trading. They first go to a known cheating site, which we will call 'site x'. They find a free script on 'site x' that has decent anti-random systems for whatever task they want to their bots to do such as the pre-update essence mine.

 

 

 

They open 3 or 4 windows, and run their script for a week. At the end of that week they stop the scripts, and they have 50mil of rune essence sitting in the bank. They sell the esence, and then find a buyer for the mills on site x.

 

 

 

So in conclusion, the RWT's are the ones actually doing the macroing. And even in rare cases where the RWT's dont do the actual macroing, they are still just as big of a part of the problem as the people who are doing the actual macroing.

[Sly_Wizard]

Macro'ers often flooded the market with thousands upon thousands of raw goods, thus driving their prices down substantially. While you might not want to admit it, everyone benefited from cheaper goods (Cheaper to cook, cheaper to fletch, cheaper to runecraft etc.)-- That is, unless you never bought a single item in your life.

 

 

 

Macro'ers were like the illegal immigrants of Runescape; Everyone complained about them, but they provided the materials that most people didn't want to go out and get themselves. People complained about the prices merchants charged, but in the absence of macro'ers prices will increase as the current demand outstrips the current supply.

[spinster444]

This "way round"

 

 

 

lost all credibility when I read they need your username pass and bank pin.

 

 

 

Anything that "needs" them is account stealing and not even the people who buy stuff with RWT are dumb enough to give those details out.

 

 

 

you obviously don't understand RWT companies at all then.... a legitimate RWT company wouldn't screw over their customers because 1, legal action could be taken and 2, they make much more off of your continued business.

 

 

 

you're just being stupid now... legal action could be taken?! are you serious, the rwt 'company' is illegal, as is buying the gold, so there's no way they're going to sue...

 

 

 

that'd be like me going to buy cocaine, then me suing them after they kidnap me, we bother were doing illegal things, no one would sue

 

 

 

 

 

and even if it works, the risk of losing an account will stop LOTS of people

[qeltar]

 

Macro'ers were like the illegal immigrants of Runescape; Everyone complained about them, but they provided the materials that most people didn't want to go out and get themselves.

 

 

 

Right... we all know that nobody ever tried to fish sharks in the Fishing Guild... and those poor, lonely yew trees just had NO woodcutters wanting to give them some attention.

 

 

 

What an idiotic analogy.

 

 

 

Cheap supplies are good for consumers, but not for producers. The flood of macroers made it very difficult for those who actually want to be productive players to ply their skills.

 

 

 

Oh, and one other small thing -- they were CHEATERS. I know that doesn't matter to amoral people who can't discern right from wrong, but it does to the rest of us.

[Sly_Wizard]

It's called net gains and net losses.

 

 

 

As I said earlier (In the little portion you ignored), unless no one ever bought anything from anyone, then they were the beneficiaries of lower prices caused by macro'ers. You can't scream "Oh, this group couldn't sell for as high as they'd like!" while ignoring how that same group was able to purchase other goods at a substantially decreased price because of those same macro'ers. Yes, it would have been bad for fishers and woodcutters if the price of other goods stayed the same while the profits they made fell, but it didn't work out that way. The price of everything fell (In other words, their utility stayed just about the same).

 

 

 

Of course, looking at this from another angle, lower prices = Greater consumer surplus = Greater social benefit :thumbsup:

 

 

 

Hooray for economics!

 

 

 

And, for the record, I've already let it be known time and time again that I didn't care a lick about macro'ers. They lowered the price of raw goods and that helped me out by letting me get more out of my money.

 

 

 

Edit: All right. Humor me. Tell me the difference between auto'ers driving the price of raw goods down versus humans driving the price of raw goods down.

[kdb148]

You guys seem to think that these companies are inherently evil... They may be questionably legal, at best. But they are still companies trying to turn a profit. It is in their best interest to not get you banned, and to not scam you. The best business is repeat business, or business from their friends spread through word of mouth. What other solution do you offer will_holmes. If I sat and watched 20 Mil appear in my friends inventory less than 2 hours after the purchase... it's pretty obvious there is some loophole, or the gp wouldn't be there.

 

 

 

You can still do unbalanced trades! What's not to understand? There's no guarantee that just because it works now that it will work a month from now. Are you being this dense on purpose?

[casthewiz]

This "way round"

 

 

 

lost all credibility when I read they need your username pass and bank pin.

 

 

 

Anything that "needs" them is account stealing and not even the people who buy stuff with RWT are dumb enough to give those details out.

 

 

 

you obviously don't understand RWT companies at all then.... a legitimate RWT company wouldn't screw over their customers because 1, legal action could be taken and 2, they make much more off of your continued business.

 

 

 

you're just being stupid now... legal action could be taken?! are you serious, the rwt 'company' is illegal, as is buying the gold, so there's no way they're going to sue...

 

 

 

that'd be like me going to buy cocaine, then me suing them after they kidnap me, we bother were doing illegal things, no one would sue

 

 

 

 

 

and even if it works, the risk of losing an account will stop LOTS of people

 

 

 

Illegal in what sense? They used stolen credit cards? They are illegal and against Jagex's rules? There is no law in the US (or any country for that matter) that bans buying gold on an online game. The cocaine anology is a bad one to use for this situation. Cocaine is illegal. Pixels in a game is not.

 

I would think that you could sue them, since this is dealing with real money here, and this could be seen as stealing or as scamming, which is Illegal. (I'm not sure, as internet laws are shaky)

[qeltar]

You can't scream "Oh, this group couldn't sell for as high as they'd like!" while ignoring how that same group was able to purchase other goods at a substantially decreased price because of those same macro'ers.

 

 

Having trouble following the conversation I see.

 

 

 

Um, YOU were the one who said "everyone" benefited from cheaper goods. And I pointed out that "everyone" did not. The macroers only dropped the prices of a small basket of goods, and there were definite losers as a result of their actions.

 

 

 

The claim that bots did things others didn't want to do is pure BS.

 

 

Hooray for economics!

 

 

Indeed. Let me know when you decide to finally learn some.

[kdb148]

People buying real-world gold are misappropriating Jagex' intellectual property, which does create liability. The hard part, of course, would be for Jagex to prove damages - something likely to be impossible.

 

 

 

Remember, just because technically you have a legal cause of action against someone doesn't mean anything if you can't prove damages, because without damages, you can't sue for anything. I mean, you can always sue on the principal and collect nominal damages, but a corporation would never waste resources like that - the suit would cost them way more money than they would recover, and protecting their intellectual property against this type of abuse through the courts simply isn't cost-effective.

 

 

 

The fact that you are aiding RWT companies in this misappropriation when you buy gold is irrelevant - again, the question is damages. When you sign up for Runescape, Jagex tells you that your character and all of its items are still their property. Therefore, if someone else steals it from you, you can't claim damages, because you didn't actually lose anything, because the stuff didn't belong to you, it belonged to Jagex. And the fact that you did break the rules and got burned will almost certainly cause any court to turn a blind ear (or laugh in your face) if you attempt to claim some sort of emotional distress worthy of money damages. Especially since Jagex warns you ad nauseum not to give your password to ANYONE.

[Sly_Wizard]

Having trouble following the conversation I see.

 

 

 

Um, YOU were the one who said "everyone" benefited from cheaper goods. And I pointed out that "everyone" did not. The macroers only dropped the prices of a small basket of goods, and there were definite losers as a result of their actions.

 

 

 

I fear for your reading skills... I'll make this easy on you and just quote where I made the 'everyone' statement.

 

 

 

While you might not want to admit it, everyone benefited from cheaper goods (Cheaper to cook, cheaper to fletch, cheaper to runecraft etc.)-- That is, unless you never bought a single item in your life.

 

 

 

Pay close attention to the part in the bold. It's a conditional. Do you know what a conditional is? Apparently not. That's okay. It's you I'm speaking to, after all.

 

 

 

The claim that bots did things others didn't want to do is pure BS.

 

 

 

No. No, it's not. Refer to my previous posts if you need an explanation.

 

 

 

Indeed. Let me know when you decide to finally learn some.

 

 

 

Indeed I have, which is why you didn't bother responding to the point I made about net gains and losses (Or social benefit, for that matter. Of course, the latter point was made in jest, but it's still economics nevertheless).

 

 

 

Anyway, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question: What's the difference between an auto'er driving the price of raw goods down and a player driving the price of raw goods down?

[xpandax]

You guys seem to think that these companies are inherently evil... They may be questionably legal, at best. But they are still companies trying to turn a profit. It is in their best interest to not get you banned, and to not scam you. The best business is repeat business, or business from their friends spread through word of mouth. What other solution do you offer will_holmes. If I sat and watched 20 Mil appear in my friends inventory less than 2 hours after the purchase... it's pretty obvious there is some loophole, or the gp wouldn't be there.

 

 

 

You can still do unbalanced trades! What's not to understand? There's no guarantee that just because it works now that it will work a month from now. Are you being this dense on purpose?

 

 

 

apparently you are the dense one who did not bother to read this topic whatsoever... i have mentioned multiple times that the account used, already had the trade restriction enabled on it.

[Kill_Thomas9]

You guys seem to think that these companies are inherently evil... They may be questionably legal, at best. But they are still companies trying to turn a profit. It is in their best interest to not get you banned, and to not scam you. The best business is repeat business, or business from their friends spread through word of mouth. What other solution do you offer will_holmes. If I sat and watched 20 Mil appear in my friends inventory less than 2 hours after the purchase... it's pretty obvious there is some loophole, or the gp wouldn't be there.

 

 

 

You can still do unbalanced trades! What's not to understand? There's no guarantee that just because it works now that it will work a month from now. Are you being this dense on purpose?

 

 

 

apparently you are the dense one who did not bother to read this topic whatsoever... i have mentioned multiple times that the account used, already had the trade restriction enabled on it.

 

 

 

When you post a topic, you cant expect people to read the entire thing. They either read the first post, and reply to it without reading the thread, or read the first post, and the last post, and then respond.

[xpandax]

You guys seem to think that these companies are inherently evil... They may be questionably legal, at best. But they are still companies trying to turn a profit. It is in their best interest to not get you banned, and to not scam you. The best business is repeat business, or business from their friends spread through word of mouth. What other solution do you offer will_holmes. If I sat and watched 20 Mil appear in my friends inventory less than 2 hours after the purchase... it's pretty obvious there is some loophole, or the gp wouldn't be there.

 

 

 

You can still do unbalanced trades! What's not to understand? There's no guarantee that just because it works now that it will work a month from now. Are you being this dense on purpose?

 

 

 

apparently you are the dense one who did not bother to read this topic whatsoever... i have mentioned multiple times that the account used, already had the trade restriction enabled on it.

 

 

 

When you post a topic, you cant expect people to read the entire thing. They either read the first post, and reply to it without reading the thread, or read the first post, and the last post, and then respond.

 

 

 

My bad, i guess i expected someone to read my entire post before personally insulting my intelligence. Wishful thinking?

[Dragontotem]

Uhh ohh.... Trouble on the horizon.. In ONLY 2 hours 20 minutes, a real world trader could put 2 mil on your account! We all know that it wouldn't be time consuming, and the companies would still thrive!

 

 

 

... 20 Mil in less than 2 hours.. is not 2 hours and 20 minutes for 2 mil. The point is they have found ways around Jagex's "amazing updates"

 

 

 

No. The point is that you fail.