Iraq war, your opinions?

[dragoonson]

The way to combat terrorism is through intelligence, not torturing Islamists to the point they become martyrs for the cause.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but...Combating Terrorism through intelligence? In the Middle East? We could all wish. We can only deal with terrorism with war because it's the only thing that drives Middle Eastern extremists. There is no intelligence for them. Only Virgins and their Heaven...And I feel bad for them, and the innocent over there. But there is no stopping their beliefs...The other unfortunate truth is that people are tortured here AND over there by the same people that we are torturing...Again, extremists. Both captured Americans and their own people. :| (Or at least it was like that until we killed that bastard Saddam)

 

 

 

I thought it right to go over to Iraq to recapture Bin Laden, and when we killed Saddam that was good. However, killing him seems suffeciant. Unfortunately, it's still "Unstable" and kinda is because of some of the things going on there...

 

 

 

This is the thing. You torture a man, you have no idea how many people will follow his cause in inspiration of his devotion.

 

 

 

True, but we have to take that risk. And if those people follow him in his footsteps, their an enemy. They have no fear because they want their heaven. Again, I feel bad--but we have to eliminate those who pose a threat.

 

 

 

Don't you think thats a bit harsh?By intelligence first I doubt he means "If you score more than me on this SAT test you stop terrorism,okay?" more like diplomacy.And second,you can't call a man a bastard for believing in something.Oh crap you believe in America you bastard :roll: .

 

 

 

Take that risk?Right lets send another A-bomb out,they're probably all terrorists right now,lets take a risk.Seriously?

 

 

 

Oh by the way,I've heard waterboarding can lead to insanity.Surely thats worse than death?

 

 

 

By the way again,I started in this "debate" fairly neutral minded with little regard for current affairs.The way you phrase your so called "comebacks" jack,that really pissed me off.

[Lenticular_J]

It's damn near impossible to garner military intelligence as to the kind Ginger was suggesting in locations like the Middle East. Diplomacy (mostly) has nothing to do with intelligence.

 

 

 

Saddam believed in radical Islam, but he killed Sunnis and Shi'ites both left and right. He supposedly was only trying to clear out the Shi'ites, but thousands of Sunni deaths occurred as well. He is a bastard.

 

 

 

Birth deficiencies can also cause insanity, your point?

 

 

 

Your "A-bomb" retort is blown massively out of proportion. One person with very, very good evidence pointing at their activities > killing thousands for no reason.

[RichieMcD]

Jack what do you expect people to do after being locked up in "Gitmo"? They're placed there without a fair trial, they're denied many basic things, they have racial and sectarian slurs said to them daily by guards and the cell linings are known to cause acute headaches, now imagine having acute headaches and the others thing I've mentioned for 6 months to possibly 3 years.

 

 

 

People will want revenge, they will want revenge against the people who put them into that [cabbage] hole. Do you honestly expect them to go back to their home and live life as if nothing happened? If I was in their situation I'd be straight up to my local Al-Qaeda camp as soon as I was released from "Gitmo" looking for revenge.

[Yomyth105]

I say that America along with other countries should continue operations in the Middle East and establish peace within the people.

 

 

 

Everybody is constantly pointing the finger at Bush for starting the operations in Iraq. first off, the president of the US cant declare war. only congress could. the president can only make it more popular if he favors it...

 

 

 

next the mission is to get Saddam Hussein out of power and stop the "weapons of mass destruction" that Iraq claimed they have.

 

 

 

If we were not going to stop Saddam he would be close to ending up like the next Hitler. the man has so much power and murdered many innocent people. With his power in Iraq it made our lives harder to establish peace with them.

 

 

 

We were wrong with the weapons of mass destructions but we could sit back and find out. we had to take charge.

 

 

 

Conclusion: Saddam was executed and it is more peaceful there than it was before. of course there r still terrorists and bombings but there will always be that. the threat had been eliminated and Iraq had been taken under control for the most part.

[Tom_Servo]

I say that America along with other countries should continue operations in the Middle East and establish peace within the people.

 

 

 

Everybody is constantly pointing the finger at Bush for starting the operations in Iraq. first off, the president of the US cant declare war. only congress could. the president can only make it more popular if he favors it...

 

 

 

So true. At the time pretty much EVERYBODY was all for it. But politicians are politicians and they flip-flopped like none other. And then there are the "I hate Bush but I voted for him....twice" hypocrites. People seemed to have forgotten what a war was and didn't like that people were dieing, even if it is a relatively low number. War is war. People die. It sucks, but it happens.

 

 

 

Anyway I'm going to have to agree with you and the "you break it you buy it" philosophy. It's too late to turn back now. Giving up at this point will only result in Iran invading and killing more people; and then the cycle repeats. The only right thing to do is complete what we set out to do so all of those people didn't die in vain.

[l0l0lpur32]

^^ How has KSM become a martyr for the cause?

 

Well it's not hard to see how. Young Muslims see this man being tortured for what he believes in - beliefs they themselves can relate to. It encourages them to join terrorist organisations.

 

 

 

This is the thing. You torture a man, you have no idea how many people will follow his cause in inspiration of his devotion.

 

What's your solution to the ever increasing influence of hate-preaching anti-western groups? Throw money at pointless things like this (same thing on BBC) and this?

[Ginger_Warrior]

^^ How has KSM become a martyr for the cause?

 

Well it's not hard to see how. Young Muslims see this man being tortured for what he believes in - beliefs they themselves can relate to. It encourages them to join terrorist organisations.

 

 

 

This is the thing. You torture a man, you have no idea how many people will follow his cause in inspiration of his devotion.

 

What's your solution to the ever increasing influence of hate-preaching anti-western groups? Throw money at pointless things like this and this?

 

Would the Mail rather we teach Christian traditions instead? Oh wait... we already do.

 

 

 

Just use sense. If you seek to pacify someone, torturing their brothers in the faith, and bombing their countries into the Dark Ages is hardly away to go about it.

[jackattack]

^^ How has KSM become a martyr for the cause?

 

Well it's not hard to see how. Young Muslims see this man being tortured for what he believes in - beliefs they themselves can relate to. It encourages them to join terrorist organisations.

 

 

 

This is the thing. You torture a man, you have no idea how many people will follow his cause in inspiration of his devotion.

 

 

 

No ones going to be inspired by KSM. Especially when he only lasted one time of being waterboarded. The CIA agents who were there said he practically wanted to talk.

 

 

 

[hide=][/hide]

 

 

 

Does that look inspiring to you?

 

 

 

Jack what do you expect people to do after being locked up in "Gitmo"? They're placed there without a fair trial, they're denied many basic things, they have racial and sectarian slurs said to them daily by guards and the cell linings are known to cause acute headaches, now imagine having acute headaches and the others thing I've mentioned for 6 months to possibly 3 years.

 

 

 

People will want revenge, they will want revenge against the people who put them into that [cabbage] hole. Do you honestly expect them to go back to their home and live life as if nothing happened? If I was in their situation I'd be straight up to my local Al-Qaeda camp as soon as I was released from "Gitmo" looking for revenge.

 

Jack what do you expect people to do after being locked up in "Gitmo"? They're placed there without a fair trial, they're denied many basic things, they have racial and sectarian slurs said to them daily by guards and the cell linings are known to cause acute headaches, now imagine having acute headaches and the others thing I've mentioned for 6 months to possibly 3 years.

 

 

 

People will want revenge, they will want revenge against the people who put them into that [cabbage] hole. Do you honestly expect them to go back to their home and live life as if nothing happened? If I was in their situation I'd be straight up to my local Al-Qaeda camp as soon as I was released from "Gitmo" looking for revenge.

 

 

 

 

It's not innocent farmers who were angry and decided to join al qaida. It's people who were already terrorists and either tricked CIA into thinking they were innocent or guys we didn't have enough evidence to hold.

[dragoonson]

Put it this way Jack.How did you feel when your news guys were kidnapped?Felt that call to arms,a certain indignation?Thats how they feel.Believe it or not with your supremacy (even though you weren't native to America anyway) they're humans too.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Does that look inspiring to you?

 

No, but then I've not been brought up from the age of 0 to hate the Western World, and I've not seen my fellow Muslims murdered on the streets of Iraq and Afghanistan by said Western World, have I?

 

 

 

You cannot begin to deal with a problem if you cannot even understand what grievances the people who want to bomb your country have.

 

 

 

Quite clearly, people are inspired by martyrs like him. Look outside your own country for once. Look at how Islamist groups thrive in the Middle East. These people don't seek inspiration from thin air, you know.

[jackattack]

^^ They don't thrive in Iraq. al qaida kills more muslims than Americans. Thats why the Iraq militias are getting them out of their neighborhoods and killing them.

[Ginger_Warrior]

^^ They don't thrive in Iraq. al qaida kills more muslims than Americans. Thats why the Iraq militias are getting them out of their neighborhoods and killing them.

 

If they don't thrive in Iraq, why are you there again exactly?

[dragoonson]

Does that look inspiring to you?

 

No, but then I've not been brought up from the age of 0 to hate the Western World, and I've not seen my fellow Muslims murdered on the streets of Iraq and Afghanistan by said Western World, have I?

 

 

 

You cannot begin to deal with a problem if you cannot even understand what grievances the people who want to bomb your country have.

 

 

 

Quite clearly, people are inspired by martyrs like him. Look outside your own country for once. Look at how Islamist groups thrive in the Middle East. These people don't seek inspiration from thin air, you know.

 

 

 

Sorry Ginge,but they're born into Islamism,they don't get a choice.Outsiders marrying in are converted as well...

 

 

 

My cousin did that.We always make sure pork is ordered now.Shame on him,first born of the first born too (And I might be the seventh of the seventh : )

 

 

 

Jack,thats a very ignorant statement right there.Why would you kill people that are possibly going to join your army?They kill more muslims than Americans?So they only target America?You guys need to as we say "wake up your idea".

[jackattack]

^^ It's a fact.

 

 

 

^^ They don't thrive in Iraq. al qaida kills more muslims than Americans. Thats why the Iraq militias are getting them out of their neighborhoods and killing them.

 

If they don't thrive in Iraq, why are you there again exactly?

 

 

 

I'm not saying they aren't there. There are still there and still very very dangerous. But It was like a moth ago the Ryan Crocker said that al qaida has never been closer to defeat.

[l0l0lpur32]

 

Would the Mail rather we teach Christian traditions instead? Oh wait... we already do.

 

 

 

Just use sense. If you seek to pacify someone, torturing their brothers in the faith, and bombing their countries into the Dark Ages is hardly away to go about it.

 

All this is going to do (both the state-sponsored board of imams, and the teaching about islam in school citizenship lessons thing) is play into the hands of both islamist groups, and the BNP.

[Ginger_Warrior]

 

Would the Mail rather we teach Christian traditions instead? Oh wait... we already do.

 

 

 

Just use sense. If you seek to pacify someone, torturing their brothers in the faith, and bombing their countries into the Dark Ages is hardly away to go about it.

 

All this is going to do (both the state-sponsored board of imams, and the teaching about islam in schools thing) is play into the hands of both islamist groups, and the BNP.

 

The BNP are deplored by almost the entire British public, and laughed at by other countries. They have members who organise debates on Bebo to attract youths, and hang off every word Pat Condell gives them. It really doesn't bother me that the BNP profit, because the BNP are so incredibly tiny, it makes no difference.

 

 

 

Almost all people have the intelligence to look at them and see them for the racist, homophobic fascists they are.

 

 

 

Moderate imams coming into schools and informing people of spiritual Islam is harmless. What you're saying is like suggesting an Anglican priest coming into schools would play into the hands of homophobes.

 

 

 

I'm not saying they aren't there. There are still there and still very very dangerous. But It was like a moth ago the Ryan Crocker said that al qaida has never been closer to defeat.

 

This is the same person who said, and I quote: "It is no exaggeration to say that Iraq is - and will remain for some time - a traumatized society..

 

 

 

Can't you see extremist groups thrive in such societies?

[jackattack]

They are obviously not thriving. Maybe a few years ago they were but not anymore. People still have the same view of the Iraq war as last year. Iraq has completely turned around. Violence is down, the ISF is cracking down on the militias, and al qaida is on the run. They are even using women as suicide bombers.

[magekillr]

Hi:

 

 

 

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/arc ... _big_d.php

[jackattack]

^^ I don't see how that means anything. President Bush and Maliki have agreed to aspirations of when to withdraw. It's not an arbitrary timetable for retreat like Obama wants. It can be changed according to the conditions on the ground. Obama will probably change his tune once he gets back from Iraq anyway. McCain practically forced him to go. Obama has zero credibility on Iraq. Just look at the surge. Who was right there?

[1_man_army]

It's damn near impossible to garner military intelligence as to the kind Ginger was suggesting in locations like the Middle East. Diplomacy (mostly) has nothing to do with intelligence.

 

 

 

Saddam believed in radical Islam, but he killed Sunnis and Shi'ites both left and right. He supposedly was only trying to clear out the Shi'ites, but thousands of Sunni deaths occurred as well. He is a bastard.

 

 

 

 

As horrible as he was, Saddam was one of the most secular leaders in the middle east. While he was a devout Muslim privately, he hated religion in Iraq as it was an outside influence and a potential threat to his power - he had many clerics killed during his reign.

[Ginger_Warrior]

^^ I don't see how that means anything. President Bush and Maliki have agreed to aspirations of when to withdraw. It's not an arbitrary timetable for retreat like Obama wants. It can be changed according to the conditions on the ground. Obama will probably change his tune once he gets back from Iraq anyway. McCain practically forced him to go. Obama has zero credibility on Iraq. Just look at the surge. Who was right there?

 

We've not had a surge in Basra, yet the situation has improved greatly in past few months. It's Afghanistan that's our problem now.

 

 

 

Quite clearly, something other than the surge is making a difference.

[jackattack]

Immediately after the british retreated violence went up. It was only after a while that it went down. That was because the insurgents went to other areas of Iraq.

[magekillr]

So Jack: What is "winning in Iraq"?

 

 

 

I mean, they have a government, their government wants us out, their people want us out, 68% of Americans want us out...when do you swap from "winning" to "won"? Or are you just gonna believe more [cabbage] benchmarks that have "been met" until the end of time?

 

 

 

I don't understand what "winning" is when it comes to this situation. If there's a hockey game on, there's 3 periods, and whoever has the most points at the end of those 3 periods is the winner.

 

 

 

So, what is winning? It's never going to be perfect, ever, no country is, especially in that region.

 

 

 

You don't find this ironic...at all?:

 

 

 

CRAWFORD, TX (CNN) An embarrassing slip up for the White House press office Saturday, when an aide hit the wrong button and mistakenly sent to the news media a Reuters article saying Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki backs presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama's troop withdrawal plan.

 

 

 

White House spokesman Scott Stanzel says, "It was a mistake. Clips list for staff was supposed to be the addressee."

 

 

 

The Obama campaign quickly took advantage of the mistake, forwarding an ABC report detailing the incident to its press list.

 

 

 

This is not the first time the White House has emailed in error. But its timing is particularly embarrassing as the Bush administration's recent agreement with al-Maliki on a "general time horizon" for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq is being cited by some as resembling Obama's proposal that U.S. forces should leave within 16 months.

[RichieMcD]

 

 

 

Sorry Ginge,but they're born into Islamism,they don't get a choice.Outsiders marrying in are converted as well...

 

 

 

 

Sorry but that's the most [cabbage] statement I've ever heard. My auntie married a Muslim from Syria. He still holds to many of his beliefs but never once has he imposed Islam on my auntie. They have 2 kids and the only thing he asks of her is that his 2 children don't eat pork. My uncle doesn't support the actions of Al-Qaeda nor does he support the Jihad against America.

 

 

 

Not every Muslim forces their beliefs on others nor supports the Jihad and the works of Al-Qaeda. Not every Muslim believes in Sharia law nor endorses it. Seriously think about stuff before you come up with those [cabbage] comments.

[l0l0lpur32]

 

Would the Mail rather we teach Christian traditions instead? Oh wait... we already do.

 

 

 

Just use sense. If you seek to pacify someone, torturing their brothers in the faith, and bombing their countries into the Dark Ages is hardly away to go about it.

 

All this is going to do (both the state-sponsored board of imams, and the teaching about islam in schools thing) is play into the hands of both islamist groups, and the BNP.

 

The BNP are deplored by almost the entire British public, and laughed at by other countries. They have members who organise debates on Bebo to attract youths, and hang off every word Pat Condell gives them. It really doesn't bother me that the BNP profit, because the BNP are so incredibly tiny, it makes no difference.

 

 

 

Almost all people have the intelligence to look at them and see them for the racist, homophobic fascists they are.

 

 

 

Moderate imams coming into schools and informing people of spiritual Islam is harmless. What you're saying is like suggesting an Anglican priest coming into schools would play into the hands of homophobes.

 

 

What does Pat Condell have to do with the BNP? He even mentions in one of his videos he doesn't like it when white supremacists use his videos as their propaganda. And yes the BNP is a disgusting racist party but calling them "fascist" or "nazi" is just silly. The "moderate imams" in schools thing will just help extremist groups because it'll back up their propaganda of "the west is trying to water down/destroy islam". The reason why it'll all help the BNP is because it'll back up their propaganda of "britain is being islamofied and the BNP is the only party which will stop it". The whole idea is just completely naive and a waste of money.