I think if your partner makes you feel guilty about them then they're wrong to do so. That's a fault with them, not with the type of relationship (which I assume is what you meant? I don't mean to jump to conclusions here, just trying to follow the track of conversation.)

My belief is that most people will, at some point or another, fantasize about another partner, regardless of how healthy a relationship was to begin with.

 

Some people will choose to act on these impulses by pursuing someone from their fantasy. In other words, they'll cheat. I think we can all agree that this is bad, for obvious reasons.

 

Some people will choose to act on these impulses by masturbating and getting it out of their mind (temporarily). You guys think this is good (right?). I think it's bad. Not necessarily bad for the relationship-- but for the person experiencing these thoughts. It implies dissatisfaction/frustration/guilt. The degree of those negative thoughts varies, depending on context.

 

Some people will choose not to act on these impulses at all-- they'll try to resist/ignore them. But I believe that's also bad. Again, maybe not necessarily bad for the relationship, but bad for the person with those feelings for the same reason I just described.

 

 

 

So what do I think is good? Not restricting your sexuality to just one person, and therefore never having this problem in the first place.

I think if your partner makes you feel guilty about them then they're wrong to do so. That's a fault with them, not with the type of relationship (which I assume is what you meant? I don't mean to jump to conclusions here, just trying to follow the track of conversation.)

 

I agree.

 

My belief is that most people will, at some point or another, fantasize about another partner, regardless of how healthy a relationship was to begin with.

 

Some people will choose to act on these impulses by pursuing someone from their fantasy. In other words, they'll cheat. I think we can all agree that this is bad, for obvious reasons.

 

Some people will choose to act on these impulses by masturbating and getting it out of their mind (temporarily). You guys think this is good (right?). I think it's bad. Not necessarily bad for the relationship-- but for the person experiencing these thoughts. It implies dissatisfaction/frustration/guilt. The degree of those negative thoughts varies, depending on context.

 

Some people will choose not to act on these impulses at all-- they'll try to resist/ignore them. But I believe that's also bad. Again, maybe not necessarily bad for the relationship, but bad for the person with those feelings for the same reason I just described.

 

 

 

So what do I think is good? Not restricting your sexuality to just one person, and therefore never having this problem in the first place.

 

It depends on what a fantasy is. I agree that many people will notice a random person, and think "they're hot, I'd bang them", and that's as far as it gets. But a complex, detailed, repeating fantasy about a specific person is something that I believe you allow to grow in your mind, and is entirely under your control. And that, in my opinion, is not something everyone has.

Well if a person decides to masturbate, do you think it matters what they're thinking about while they do it? Do you think it's bad that they're masturbating in the first place?

Some people will choose to act on these impulses by masturbating and getting it out of their mind (temporarily). You guys think this is good (right?). I think it's bad. Not necessarily bad for the relationship-- but for the person experiencing these thoughts. It implies dissatisfaction/frustration/guilt. The degree of those negative thoughts varies, depending on context.

 

Some people will choose not to act on these impulses at all-- they'll try to resist/ignore them. But I believe that's also bad. Again, maybe not necessarily bad for the relationship, but bad for the person with those feelings for the same reason I just described.

 

I can agree with this.

 

 

@Porndiscussion

 

I think that porn is something that can be damaging depending on the partner. Some girls would think that watching porn is equivalent to cheating where others join in on the watching of it. A lot of that comes down the the individual's beliefs and morals on that whole subject.

I fantasize about driving a Ferrari. It does not mean i am unhappy about driving my Mustang though.

When me and this girl were together, and we started kissing and getting a bit intimate, i often did feel like i had to take a step back, take a deep breath and then continue. I guess i did fantasize about having sex with her and probably more than just once or twice. But that did not mean i was unhappy about anything.

 

EDIT: Jesus, i go to the toilet before submitting my post and come back to find a whole new page of replies :shock:

 

EDIT 2: Which for some odd reason reminded me of the following. So last night at around 7pm she sent me a text. Told me that she misses talking to me the whole day. I told her that i was sorry for not texting her, but i thought it would probably be a bit better if i hadn't (for obvious reasons). We started conversing and i told her that it might not be the smartest thing of me to say, but i kinda miss talking to her/seeing her as well. She then replied by saying that she wants things to go back to how they were (ie. getting naked then having no sex). I told her that it can only happen under 2 conditions.

 

1.) If the clothes come off... then something needs to happen. She can't lead me on, get my blood pumping, then expect me to just take the keys out of the ignition. It's not fair on me, and it makes it very hard for me to remain respectable.

2.) If it is to go back to how it was, then i do not want to have the same discussion (i like you, but i don't know if that's enough) with her again in two weeks time.

 

I think the fact that she "came back" so fast might be a good sign. I think she has genuine feelings for me, and really likes my company. I first thought that it was purely because she might have been bored for the day and decided to talk to me, but i know that she has a plate full of other options to occupy her mind.

 

I guess i have a second chance with her now, and i'm going to go at things a bit more aggressive this time (in terms of taking a leap and not playing it safe).

Also, i did tell her "i need a while to think this through". Although i'll probably say yes, i did not want to seem over eager about doing so.

...you drive a Mustang too? High five!

I drastically disagree....at least on the point that a romantic relationship requires sex immediately.

 

I never said immediately. Hell you can wait however long each party agrees to, but it has to happen eventually. Which is why my quote omitted any sort of reference to timing.

 

 

to me sex is 50% of the relationship. ability to be open/honest with and conversability are the other 50%. If I'm not having sex with my girlfriend within 6-7 months there's something not clicking, and it's time to move on.

 

--

Porn is a natural thing to enjoy. It should have absolutely 0 effect on a relationship. The fact that some people let it become an issue, sows that they're way too insecure to be in a relationship to begin with.

But there's a big difference between fantasizing about something that you can't/don't have, and something you can get any time you want. In the case of the former, if you're fantasizing about something like that, then doesn't that imply that you're somewhat unsatisfied with your current situation?

Not necessarily, no. If I go to a supermarket, but I have to buy Pepsi because they're out of stock on Sprite, does it imply I'm unsatisfied with Pepsi? Sometimes, but definitely not always. It's possible to desire B and still be satisfied with A in the absence of B.

 

In fact, interestingly enough, the Wikipedia article on masturbation (which I won't link to here for obvious family-friendly reasons--the article contains nude photographs of genitalia--but is related to fantasising since people tend to do it whilst doing the other) contains links to no less than four studies to reference a claim that women and gay men in relationships tend to masturbate more. I can't vouch that that conclusion hasn't been cherry picked, and I don't have access to the Cochrane Collection to check, but assuming good faith, doesn't this force you to at least rethink your quoted theory in the light of new information? You have to concede at least one of two things. 1) That fantasising itself may not necessarily be indicative of dissatisfaction, just that we might like to experience something else at least temporarily or without any consequence or distress to ourselves or others, or; 2) Having a sexual partner is actually the cause of said dissatisfaction.

 

At the very very least, you can't argue against the stark reality that some guys and some girls do go for years without having sex with their other halves, and manage quite capably, even if they may or may not be fantasising about other people in the meantime.

Or maybe the women are masturbating because they're bored of their partners that no longer turn them on.

 

My theory was that maybe they're masturbating more because, being in a relationship, sex is more on their mind then when they are single?

 

Sooo, we've basically proved that these studies have no obvious conclusion?

You people have such interesting discussions.

 

Just some random mussings, since Noxx seems to be doing okay right now...

 

I am thinking that even though our life is far more complex than our brains really seem to be built to handle (there are a whole list of logical fallacies that would be a lot less common if we had the right hardware), we didn't get here by being clueless. There are certain things we can figure out all on our own, and this includes pretty much everything about procreation, because anyone who got it wrong didn't pass on their material. So while our crazy social system can complicate and confuse us, there is still something to be said for doing what feels right. Your genetic code has been doing this for thousands of years, and you have a thinking brain that can take your base urges and act on them within the social constraints of your culture.

 

Monogamy is too prevalent to be a fluke. While our life spans might have been a lot shorter when the social convention began, if it were not a natural course, it would not dominate the world like it does. My point being, your body probably has the same goal that you do (there are of course exceptions, which is why we have concepts for multiple sexual orientations and relationship arrangements). Part of this is that we have the neediest and most useless offspring on the planet by a long shot, which means we were never able to get away with one parent (and its still a pretty tricky prospect today).

 

And a different line of thought. I talked about it before as it related to being happy. We are programmed to seek more. If our life is perfect, and there is nothing else we need, rather than sink into happy contentment we become stressed and frustrated. We got to where we we're by constantly seeking out new and better things, and this will of course apply to relationships for at least some people as well. The ones that endure are probably the ones that never stagnate, and where the people in them are constantly seeking out new goals. Their lives don't stagnate either, and thus their bodies have less time to get bored and content and want to move on to better things. The death of the monogamous relationship is the rut, or the pattern of hum drum life. The death of the relationship is boredom, but only because the entire life is boring. If you can keep your own life exciting, as well as your partnered life, there is no reason for your body to become unhappy with the arrangement.

You people have such interesting discussions.

 

Just some random mussings, since Noxx seems to be doing okay right now...

 

I am thinking that even though our life is far more complex than our brains really seem to be built to handle (there are a whole list of logical fallacies that would be a lot less common if we had the right hardware), we didn't get here by being clueless. There are certain things we can figure out all on our own, and this includes pretty much everything about procreation, because anyone who got it wrong didn't pass on their material. So while our crazy social system can complicate and confuse us, there is still something to be said for doing what feels right. Your genetic code has been doing this for thousands of years, and you have a thinking brain that can take your base urges and act on them within the social constraints of your culture.

 

Monogamy is too prevalent to be a fluke. While our life spans might have been a lot shorter when the social convention began, if it were not a natural course, it would not dominate the world like it does. My point being, your body probably has the same goal that you do (there are of course exceptions, which is why we have concepts for multiple sexual orientations and relationship arrangements). Part of this is that we have the neediest and most useless offspring on the planet by a long shot, which means we were never able to get away with one parent (and its still a pretty tricky prospect today).

 

And a different line of thought. I talked about it before as it related to being happy. We are programmed to seek more. If our life is perfect, and there is nothing else we need, rather than sink into happy contentment we become stressed and frustrated. We got to where we we're by constantly seeking out new and better things, and this will of course apply to relationships for at least some people as well. The ones that endure are probably the ones that never stagnate, and where the people in them are constantly seeking out new goals. Their lives don't stagnate either, and thus their bodies have less time to get bored and content and want to move on to better things. The death of the monogamous relationship is the rut, or the pattern of hum drum life. The death of the relationship is boredom, but only because the entire life is boring. If you can keep your own life exciting, as well as your partnered life, there is no reason for your body to become unhappy with the arrangement.

 

Well men were never meant to be monogamous, period. Women, however, were supposed to be serial-monogamists for ~3 years at a time. Your argument seems to be that since monogamy has been around for so long, it's therefore a good thing... which, speaking of fallacies, brings this and this to mind. Additionally, human beings have been around for about 200,000 years and our biology hasn't really changed much since then. We've only been doing the whole monogamy thing for the past few thousand years or so. Biology stays the same, while social norms change (and often conflict with our obsolete brains). Let me know if I'm misunderstanding you, though.

 

And yes, our brains weren't wired to say "Good job, you finished what you set out to do. You can now be happy for the rest of your life"-- we wouldn't be very productive as a species if that were the case. However, simply knowing that your brain works like that is enough to shift happiness in your favor. In my case, I'm completely satisfied with my life right now. I'm very happy with everything I have right now, from material possessions to friends and family. So when I set my goals, it's kind of funny because I know that they aren't going to make me any happier in the long run, but I work on them anyway because they're fun to do. This is different from people who think that happiness is always just out of reach from them, and they can have it once they do this, this, and that... and that once they get what they want, all of their other problems will magically disappear.

 

And I don't think it's very realistic to try and maintain a healthy, exciting relationship with the same person for the rest of your life. There's way too many variables working against you to make that happen-- many of them beyond your control.

What evidence do you have that humans have only been monogamous very recently? Just curious....

Google it. The first page of results will all be along the lines of "humans are not monogamous by nature"

Out of curiosity, what sort of variables affect your long term relationship that you have no control over? I'd like to see what you are talking about here specifically.

And I'm sure if I googled "humans are monogamous by nature" the first page of results would be articles and evidence supporting that.....

The term " healthy, exciting relationship" and "way too many variables working against you" kind of contradict each other in my opinion.

First off, health and exciting are very relative terms, the way i think about them. Some people think it's unhealthy to argue, other's think an argument now and then is needed. Two people that get along too well, and agree on everything will make things very boring in my opinion, but for other's that might be exactly what they want. I say that's unhealthy, they would argue that it's not. I say that's boring and totally unexciting, they might say it's the opposite.

In terms of "way too many variables working against you". For me that's what makes most monogamous relationships so exciting. The fact that sometimes you need to put some work and effort into it. The fact that you might have to break everyday routine.I know this can easily be the same for a polygamous relationship too, i'm not saying it isn't. I'm just saying that you can't really make a statement like that when there are millions (even billions) of people that have had the same partner from a very young age till they day they die.

My parents for example. They met when they were in their mid 20's which is really the start of your adult life (especially in those days, and in that culture). They got married and this year will be their 27th anniversary. I can say that they are as inlove now as they were the day they met, if not more. I'm pretty sure they still have a very active sexual life (i really don't want to think about that at all) knowing the kind of people they are. They are complete opposites as well. My mom's still very young at heart and likes doing fun stuff, my dad pretty much just want's to sit on the couch with a beer in the hand and a rugby game on the tv. But having said that, they still have a very, very exciting life traveling all over the place, doing things they've never done before, going places they've never been.

Neither of them have ever cheated (not saying the thought hasn't crossed their minds, i would not know).

 

Point i'm trying to make is that there have been enough relationships that last to disprove: "And I don't think it's very realistic to try and maintain a healthy, exciting relationship with the same person for the rest of your life. There's way too many variables working against you to make that happen-- many of them beyond your control. "

 

I saw a picture posted on Facebook not long ago of an old couple sitting on a bench looking very much inlove with a caption saying something like:

 

x: How have you managed to be together this long?

y: We grew up in a time where, when something was broken you fix it, you don't just throw it away and buy a new one.

I think that's the problem many of us have today. We live in the "Y - Generation".

 

Y get an education?

Y get a job?

Y make something of my life?

Etc.

 

We're too quick to give up on something.

I love that picture, Noxx I know exactly what you're talking about.

 

I don't believe humans are 'naturally' monogamous. There are species out there that mate for life [ie: swan] but I don't think humans naturally belong to that group. Monogamy was implemented by religion, for ownership purposes that was later glorified to justify it's existence. BUT due to it's success in the past thousands years or so, I feel that humans NURTURED their way into a state where monogamy is more natural. Maybe not on a biological level, but on a psychological level. We can't possibly evolve that drastically in only a thousand years or so, so we have a pysche of social standard to kind of speed up the process. That's my 2 cents anyway.

Much of ancient and modern religion encourages polygamy...

Out of curiosity, what sort of variables affect your long term relationship that you have no control over? I'd like to see what you are talking about here specifically.

• The overall structure, rules, and expectations of monogamy and what constitutes a "healthy" relationship
  
• Social norms (see below)
  
• Our biology
  

I hope you already know what I'll say regarding those topics, but if you really want me to be specific and elaborate, let me know.

 

And I'm sure if I googled "humans are monogamous by nature" the first page of results would be articles and evidence supporting that.....

 

Are you trying to say that we are monogamous by nature?

 

The term " healthy, exciting relationship" and "way too many variables working against you" kind of contradict each other in my opinion.

First off, health and exciting are very relative terms, the way i think about them. Some people think it's unhealthy to argue, other's think an argument now and then is needed. Two people that get along too well, and agree on everything will make things very boring in my opinion, but for other's that might be exactly what they want. I say that's unhealthy, they would argue that it's not. I say that's boring and totally unexciting, they might say it's the opposite.

 

This is where drama comes from-- people who are bored with their lives and need something "exciting" to happen. But I don't see drama as a good thing. I have enough excitement in my life outside my relationships, and therefore any drama would negatively affect my overall happiness. So as a result, I avoid drama like the plague :P But if you're in a monogamous relationship, it's nearly impossible to avoid drama without threatening the relationship (another reason why I'm poly). Many people are afraid of ending their relationship (for various reasons which we discussed a few days ago), and as a result they'll learn to tolerate the all the shitty parts. Yuck-- count me out!

 

In terms of "way too many variables working against you". For me that's what makes most monogamous relationships so exciting. The fact that sometimes you need to put some work and effort into it. The fact that you might have to break everyday routine.I know this can easily be the same for a polygamous relationship too, i'm not saying it isn't. I'm just saying that you can't really make a statement like that when there are millions (even billions) of people that have had the same partner from a very young age till they day they die.

My parents for example. They met when they were in their mid 20's which is really the start of your adult life (especially in those days, and in that culture). They got married and this year will be their 27th anniversary. I can say that they are as inlove now as they were the day they met, if not more. I'm pretty sure they still have a very active sexual life (i really don't want to think about that at all) knowing the kind of people they are. They are complete opposites as well. My mom's still very young at heart and likes doing fun stuff, my dad pretty much just want's to sit on the couch with a beer in the hand and a rugby game on the tv. But having said that, they still have a very, very exciting life traveling all over the place, doing things they've never done before, going places they've never been.

Neither of them have ever cheated (not saying the thought hasn't crossed their minds, i would not know).

 

Point i'm trying to make is that there have been enough relationships that last to disprove: "And I don't think it's very realistic to try and maintain a healthy, exciting relationship with the same person for the rest of your life. There's way too many variables working against you to make that happen-- many of them beyond your control. "

 

I saw a picture posted on Facebook not long ago of an old couple sitting on a bench looking very much inlove with a caption saying something like:

 

x: How have you managed to be together this long?

y: We grew up in a time where, when something was broken you fix it, you don't just throw it away and buy a new one.

I think that's the problem many of us have today. We live in the "Y - Generation".

 

Y get an education?

Y get a job?

Y make something of my life?

Etc.

 

We're too quick to give up on something.

 

Here's the big giant flaw in your argument which everyone seems to forget: The social norms have changed dramatically since then. People who have been happily married for a very long time (such as my own parents, who are nearing their 50th anniversary), stayed married because of social norms. Let's make a few quick comparisons:

 

Old Monogamy

• Most marriages were master-slave relationships. The man said "jump," the wife jumped. Without hesitation.
  
• If a woman was divorced, besides suffering from the social stigmas, she was also screwed financially because she depended on her husband to support her.
  
• Premarital sex was rare. Sex was one of the main perks of marriage for men.
  

Modern Monogamy

• In our modern, politically correct, post-feminism society, everyone is supposed to be treated "equally," and this is no different in relationships... Except a 50/50 monogamous relationship is impossible. One partner is often the dominant one, and the other is the submissive one. Some people actually enjoy being the submissive one, but society says that's a bad thing these days.
  
• If a woman gets divorced, instead of being chastised by her peers and screwed financially, she usually gets rewarded-- both socially ("good job dumping him! He didn't deserve you!") and financially (alimony). This alone is a HUGE reason for why marriage is such a terrible idea these days (for men, at least).
  
• Men and women can have sex all they want without getting married now.
  
• Men and women can be financially secure without getting married now.
  

I can't really argue with anything you're saying because most of it is true. Social norms have changed a lot the past 100 or so years. I mean if i look at my grandmother, the way she is in terms of relationships (her thoughts/feelings towards it) i can clearly see how she feels about me or any of my cousins being with girls. Premarital sex is a big issue for her. heck, even just having a girl alone in my room would be a big issue. Perhaps in the past it was harder to get out of a relationship, as you said, which is why so many people chose to work on their problems rather than abandon ship. And this is the way many of us were brought up, which is why so many of us think this way.

I have been an athlete all my life. And if i wasn't good at something i would really work at it the be as good at it as i knew i could be. Training was not always fun. i remember days when i had tennis practice where my coach would drive me so hard that i would be sick for hours after practice, unable to walk for days. I hated every second of it but i knew that if i managed to get through it, i'd be a better athlete than i could have ever dreamed of.

That's how i see my relationships. I know i'll have fights with whomever i have a relationship with. i know that we'll not always agree on anything, i know that there's a chance we might eventually get bored of each other. That's why i will always work my hardest to resolve any issues, agree to disagree, try to find common ground, try do something out of the ordinary to show i care about being with her.

Of course though, i am only human, and i only have so much fight in me. If after everything all is still doomed, i will give up hope. Some things are just not meant to be. And i need to accept that.

If your own parents "only stay married because of social norms", then it's no surprise you feel so poorly towards marriage...

Well it's pretty simple. My parents love each other very much because it's basically a master-slave relationship. My dad's the boss, and my mom knows it. And they're both very happy with that. And I have an awesome life, thanks to both of my parents. Same went for my grandparents.

 

I don't believe it's possible to replicate what my parents have, and what they've given me; not in this day and age. That time has passed.

 

It's actually pretty ironic that I'm the one preaching about poly and criticizing monogamy, when I've probably had the best childhood and family out of anyone else I know. I don't criticize marriage because of how my parents are or how they raised me; far from it. I criticize marriage because I'm just looking at the facts. I'm looking at the world of modern monogamy and acknowledging the way it actually works, even if it is unpleasant to do so, and regardless of my own biases (ex. my awesome parents and upbringing).

 

And after being presented with the facts, it's pretty obvious to me that in this day and age, with society how it is now, long-term monogamy would be a terrible idea.

I can't really argue with anything you're saying because most of it is true. Social norms have changed a lot the past 100 or so years. I mean if i look at my grandmother, the way she is in terms of relationships (her thoughts/feelings towards it) i can clearly see how she feels about me or any of my cousins being with girls. Premarital sex is a big issue for her. heck, even just having a girl alone in my room would be a big issue. Perhaps in the past it was harder to get out of a relationship, as you said, which is why so many people chose to work on their problems rather than abandon ship. And this is the way many of us were brought up, which is why so many of us think this way.

I have been an athlete all my life. And if i wasn't good at something i would really work at it the be as good at it as i knew i could be. Training was not always fun. i remember days when i had tennis practice where my coach would drive me so hard that i would be sick for hours after practice, unable to walk for days. I hated every second of it but i knew that if i managed to get through it, i'd be a better athlete than i could have ever dreamed of.

That's how i see my relationships. I know i'll have fights with whomever i have a relationship with. i know that we'll not always agree on anything, i know that there's a chance we might eventually get bored of each other. That's why i will always work my hardest to resolve any issues, agree to disagree, try to find common ground, try do something out of the ordinary to show i care about being with her.

Of course though, i am only human, and i only have so much fight in me. If after everything all is still doomed, i will give up hope. Some things are just not meant to be. And i need to accept that.

 

Simply put, in the past if you didn't put in enough effort to preserve your marriage, there were consequences. There aren't any consequences anymore. Much less of an incentive to "make it work."

 

Also, Noxx, even if you put in 100%, that's still only 50% of the issue.

The reasons for polygamy before it became a social norm are different than the reasons forcing this lax mentality for quick divorces, love-and-leave em scenarios, etc. So for the same reason we say that this generation is different than our grandparents or even our parents, this generation's weird experimentation with less-committed relationships are different than why we were polygamists before.

 

The question is should that matter when choosing a polygamist lifestyle, and I kind of think it does. In those cases it's not a trend back to "natural" behavior, but a lack of discipline that tends to bleed into every aspect of their lives. If a person like you, Muggi, were to compare their lifestyle to say a fickle celebrity on their 3rd marriage in half a decade, that's a disservice to you and pro-polygamists.

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say >_> Could you rephrase that?