The Offical TIF American Elections thread

[chris1216]

in which the production and distribution of goods and services are administered primarily by the government rather than by private enterprise

 

 

 

Hmm... Sounds a lot like Obama's health care plan... :roll:

 

 

 

Some analysis comparing the difference between McCain's health care plan and Barack Obama's, courtesy of a friend:

 

 

 

Initially I can tell you without really reading the plans, that I trust Barack Obama's much more than McCain's. Look how much shorter in description each plank of McCain's plan is compared to Obamas. How about all that absurd rhetoric on McCain's page, militarizing/romanticizing about health care, with his "Call to Action", his "Vision", his "Plan of Action". You can't win by leading the charge on Health Insurance Hill - its going to take a lot of nerds working late nights in broom closets with calculators to figure this one out. Which leads me to my next quick thing: mentions of cold hard numbers. I counted 4 numbers in McCain's plan. There are 26 in Obama's. Instead of numbers? McCain uses the word "should" eleven times in his plan; Obama twice.

 

 

 

It's comparable statements about the same ideas which really demonstrate my point:

 

 

 

McCain:

 

INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY: Greater Use Of Information Technology To Reduce Costs. We should promote the rapid deployment of 21st century information systems and technology that allows doctors to practice across state lines.

 

 

 

Obama:

 

Lowering Costs Through Investment in Electronic Health Information Technology Systems: Most medical records are still stored on paper, which makes it hard to coordinate care, measure quality or reduce medical errors and which costs twice as much as electronic claims. Obama will invest $10 billion a year over the next five years to move the U.S. health care system to broad adoption of standards-based

 

electronic health information systems, including electronic health records, and will phase in requirements for full implementation of health IT. Obama will ensure that patients' privacy is protected.

 

 

 

And here's something which just flat out demonstrates how Obama's take on the world trumps McCain's:

 

 

 

McCain (this is under "Lowering Health Care Costs"):

 

TORT REFORM: Passing Medical Liability Reform. We must pass medical liability reform that eliminates lawsuits directed at doctors who follow clinical guidelines and adhere to safety protocols. Every patient should have access to legal remedies in cases of bad medical practice but that should not be an invitation to endless, frivolous lawsuits.

 

 

 

Obama (this is under "Lower Costs"):

 

Insurance reform. Obama will strengthen antitrust laws to prevent insurers from overcharging physicians for their malpractice insurance and will promote new models for addressing errors that improve patient safety, strengthen the doctor-patient relationship and reduce the need for malpractice suits.

 

 

 

Obama comes at this problem from two directions: The direct cost of the lawsuits themselves, and the indirect cost of covering the possibilities of the lawsuits (insurance). McCain only comes the problem in the former (and not the latter) way. Most importantly: Obama's plan is concerned with the prevention of malpractice; McCain's plan is concerned with the prevention of malpractice lawsuits.

 

 

 

Imagine a world under McCain's plan: Your doctor screws up while following procedure (since this seems to be the viable scenario for sueing in McCain's plan). Either the screw up was the doctor's fault, in which case you can't sue her/him because he was following procedure, or god forbid, the procedure was wrong in the first place. If the procedure was wrong either a) better luck next time, B) sue whoever developed the procedure. And voila, the blame shifting game goes on. McCain's plan could be: don't sue the doctor, sue big pharma/the hospitals! Great way to keep costs down...

 

 

 

Yes, Obama's plan is more touchy-feely, but also yes a good doctor patient relationship is crucial. What better way to keep a doctor from screwing up then by giving him an emotional investment in her/his patient. Obviously you people want some kind of "evidence".

 

Well here you go:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/29/health/29well.html

 

 

 

Obama's plan is also much more adaptable - if the procedure is wrong, there are already people "addressing errors", and a reason to sue (force a change in the system) has been taken out of circulation. Plus I really like the bit about keeping malpractice insurance down - from what I know it's mandatory that doctors have it most places, so it's probably really increasing overhead costs just about everywhere/is probably a noncompetitive market just about everywhere.

 

Annnnd here's some evidence:

 

http://insurance-reform.org/StableLosses2007.pdf

 

and ahahahahaha some more:

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/ ... 0102.shtml

 

(this one even goes so far as to refute even the existence of all those "frivolous" lawsuits)

 

 

 

 

 

More to come later.

[Quoi_Tu]

in which the production and distribution of goods and services are administered primarily by the government rather than by private enterprise

 

 

 

Hmm... Sounds a lot like Obama's health care plan... :roll:

 

 

 

Keyword is "sounds." A socialism based health care system would provide the majority of the people with health care provided by the government. Obama's health care plan provides for a minority of the people. Really the ideal economic system is a mix of both capitalism and socialism. However, people seem to only ever think in extremes (current US administration).

 

 

 

Simplified socialism definition in a slightly biased manner: The government monopolizes on every aspect of business, enabling it to control the economy. Over-protected child.

 

 

 

Simplified capitalism definition in a slightly biased manner: The economy is left on it's own, completely ignored by the government. Uncontrolled child.

 

 

 

See, neither extreme really works in any situation except an ideal one. I hope that clears some things up.

 

 

 

Edit: two posts in before mine. Damn.

[jackattack]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you America's possible next Vice President, and quite possibly the next President:

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Yx-RhHb4g

 

 

 

No wonder McCain is shielding her from the media; what an unintelligent and anti-woman woman.

 

 

 

COURIC: But he's been in Congress for 26 years. He's been chairman of the powerful Commerce Committee. And he has almost always sided with less regulation, not more.

 

 

 

PALIN: He's also known as the maverick though.

 

arah Palin: My understanding is that Rick Davis recused himself from the dealings of the firm. I don't know how long ago, a year or two ago that he's not benefiting from that. And you know, I was - I would hope that's not the case.

 

 

 

Katie Couric: But he still has a stake in the company so isn't that a conflict of interest?

 

 

 

Palin: Again, my understanding is that he recused himself from the dealings with Freddie and Fannie, any lobbying efforts on his part there. And I would hope that's the case because, as John McCain has been saying, and as I've on a much more local level been also rallying against is the undue influence of lobbyists in public policy decisions being made.

 

 

 

 

 

I mean...she asked her a different question, and Palin gives the same answer verbatim.

 

 

 

----------------------------------------------

 

 

 

edit: http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsN ... 3720080925

 

 

 

China's banks no longer lending US banks money?

 

 

 

 

 

Thats not even really that bad. Can you imagine what you would be saying if she said that FDR was President when the depression happened and they had t.v.'s like Joe Biden did? You would probably have a fit.

[magekillr]

Or the Russia-Alaskan Border?

 

 

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4478156n

 

 

 

Hey, I'll admit that Biden made a mistake. I'm aware of what he meant, or tried to say (and I'm sure you do too), but I won't spin it: he [bleep]ed up.

 

 

 

However, there's a difference between [bleep]ing up, and just being a complete moron.

[Deiophobus]

I hate this woman too, but in her defense, she did say "Maritime border" in that interview.

[jackattack]

I hate this woman too, but in her defense, she did say "Maritime border" in that interview.

 

 

 

 

 

THAT'S NOT EVEN A WORD! WHAT A MORAN!

[Ginger_Warrior]

I hate this woman too, but in her defense, she did say "Maritime border" in that interview.

 

 

 

 

 

THAT'S NOT EVEN A WORD! WHAT A MORAN!

 

Eh? Was there some deeper meaning to that post lost on me? :?

[Millard]

I hate this woman too, but in her defense, she did say "Maritime border" in that interview.

 

 

 

 

 

THAT'S NOT EVEN A WORD! WHAT A MORAN!

 

 

 

But Maritime is a word....

 

 

 

Hmm whose a moron now?

[Saru Inc]

I hate this woman too, but in her defense, she did say "Maritime border" in that interview.

 

 

 

 

 

THAT'S NOT EVEN A WORD! WHAT A MORAN!

 

 

 

But Maritime is a word....

 

 

 

Hmm whose a moron now?

 

 

 

He was being sarcastic. ;)

[warren211]

Slightly offtopic: Washington Mutual just had the biggest bank failure in US history. I wonder what the candidates will say... oh wait. The debate's been moved. -.-

 

 

 

I'm trusting the Colbert Report for all my political info. While Fox news and CNN and NBC was [bleep]ing and moaning about how it was unfair to the media to keep Sarah Palin's recent interview in secrecy, Steven Colbert was making fun of Fox News, CNN, and NBC for their [bleep]ing and moaning.

 

 

 

I heard something about Palin making a mistake in Alaska/Russia or something. I'm gonna look that up. But here's a little something about Biden: In an interview recently, he spoke about how during the Great Depression Roosevelt spoke on TV about the crisis. Two things. Roosevelt wasn't president during the Depression, and no one had TV's back then :wall: . I think everyone's having their share of blunders. Even McCain, who said in a speech in one city that our economy was strong, and 3 hours later in another city said it was at risk. Jon Stewart had a great simile to this blunder, but I might not be allowed to say it... anyway, I think the media needs to stop having a frenzy every time a candidate makes a slip up. It's not as if Fix News and CNN and NBC haven't had their share of stupidity... just watch the Colbert Report ;)

[magekillr]

I wasn't referring to what she said about the border, I was referring to her response as a whole; she was so damn clueless about what she was talking about.

 

 

 

Oh Big Ed Schultz:

 

 

 

McCain Camp insiders say Palin "clueless"

 

Capitol Hill sources are telling me that senior McCain people

 

are more than concerned about Palin. The campaign has held

 

a mock debate and a mock press conference; both are being described as "disastrous." One senior McCain aide was quoted as saying, "What are we going to do?" The McCain people want to move this first debate to some later, undetermined date, possibly never. People on the inside are saying the Alaska Governor is "clueless."

[Deiophobus]

Two things. Roosevelt wasn't president during the Depression

 

 

 

Yes he was, Hoover was just the president in the first four years of it.

[fastortoise]

Presidential debates!

 

I'll be watching it for a bit cause Obama is a really bright guy with nice views.

 

:thumbup:

[warren211]

Two things. Roosevelt wasn't president during the Depression

 

 

 

Yes he was, Hoover was just the president in the first four years of it.

 

My mistake, I meant to say Roosevelt wasn't president during the crash itself. That's what Biden had said, Roosevelt went on after the crash. Now that I think of it, one could argue that he made the same mistake as me in confusing the crash and depression, or that Roosevelt did actually go on after the crash, just 10 years after it. :-k

[Deiophobus]

Debate seems to be going well for Obama :)

[Quoi_Tu]

Obama did really well in the debate, especially on the economy. McCain visibly struggled with the economy, but did really well during the second half, especially on foreign policy. I tried to watch it in a non-biased manner and, honestly, I think Obama took the lead with this one. McCain needed to work on his economic plan a bit more to since he is weak in that area. Can't wait for the next one!

 

 

 

Round 1

 

Obama: 1

 

McCain: 0

[eggzs]

LOAL

 

[Ginger_Warrior]

Let's not get too obsessed with the debate. I think most here would agree it was a total waste of time, given the poor moderation and lack of clarity between the two candidates.

 

 

 

Instead, let's look at actions. Let's look at the fact we are facing the worst failure of capitalism in 70 years, the US government and Congress are on the verge of breaking a deal, and suddenly McCain comes to town and it's all disrupted again.

 

 

 

You guys seriously think he is the man to guide you through testing times when he's shown himself to be this reckless in the face of electoral defeat?

[Deiophobus]

Who is "you guys" Ginger?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Who is "you guys" Ginger?

 

Well, people who believe McCain is the way forward for America in the next four years.

[Deiophobus]

Okay, the way you put it it makes it seem like you're addressing everyone else in the thread as on of those people.

[Quoi_Tu]

Let's look at the fact we are facing the worst financial crisis in 70 years,

 

 

 

Fixed.

 

 

 

You sound like a broken record or a socialist spouting rhetoric. Capitalism works just fine, but it does need regulation. The current US administration believes in low taxes, high spending, and a laissez-faire policy for many things with subsidiaries for "friends." None of that is economically smart and makes you wonder what the US population was thinking these past 8 years...

[Lordjake]

LOAL

 

{youtube video}

 

Oh no, Obama thinks some of McCain's idea are good

 

 

 

are you accusing Obama of being.... bipartisan?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Let's look at the fact we are facing the worst financial crisis in 70 years,

 

 

 

Fixed.

 

 

 

You sound like a broken record or a socialist spouting rhetoric. Capitalism works just fine, but it does need regulation. The current US administration believes in low taxes, high spending, and a laissez-faire policy for many things with subsidiaries for "friends." None of that is economically smart and makes you wonder what the US population was thinking these past 8 years...

 

The fact I mentioned the word capitalism doesn't make it some piece of socialist propaganda. I stated a fact, not an opinion. This is the worst crisis in a capitalist economy for 70 years.

 

 

 

It's not my fault that touches a nerve with some people.

[Quoi_Tu]

Let's look at the fact we are facing the worst financial crisis in 70 years,

 

 

 

Fixed.

 

 

 

You sound like a broken record or a socialist spouting rhetoric. Capitalism works just fine, but it does need regulation. The current US administration believes in low taxes, high spending, and a laissez-faire policy for many things with subsidiaries for "friends." None of that is economically smart and makes you wonder what the US population was thinking these past 8 years...

 

The fact I mentioned the word capitalism doesn't make it some piece of socialist propaganda. I stated a fact, not an opinion. This is the worst crisis in a capitalist economy for 70 years.

 

 

 

It's not my fault that touches a nerve with some people.

 

 

 

True it is fact, but you mention this fact quite often, always labeling it capitalism. Meaning you're making a point about it being bad. Hence the "broken record" and "rhetoric" part of my post. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression I've been getting from a lot of your posts.

 

 

 

Of course, I'm kind of dragging this off-topic, so I'll stop from here on out.

 

 

 

 

Oh no, Obama thinks some of McCain's idea are good

 

 

 

are you accusing Obama of being.... bipartisan?

 

 

 

I found it kind of curious that the republican pundit on CNN basically called Obama weak because of this. Apparently being a strong leader means being a stubborn leader.