Abortion

[DaN]

What if it's my child, what gives the mother the right to deny me my child?

 

If the mother doesn't want the child she can release it into the custody of the father, if she doesn't have an abortion because the father want the child then she should not have to support the child she wanted to abort.

 

OK, so the mother has to go through the pain (and I mean intense physical pain; men seem to think giving birth is a walk in the park - my mother almost died having me) so that you can have 'your' child.

 

 

 

 

That's life, Sure it may not fair but that's just how it is with our species, women are the ones who give birth.

 

But just because life isn't fair that doesn't mean we have to make it even more unfair by denying someone their child.

 

 

 

Raising a child is a huge commitment its not like a father would choose to keep the child "just for the hell of it (well I wouldn't)", it is their right to have the child and if they are willing to take sole custody so the mother doesn't have to deal with the child once its born, that's even more reason to allow them to keep their child.

[mmmcannibalism]

What if it's my child, what gives the mother the right to deny me my child?

 

If the mother doesn't want the child she can release it into the custody of the father, if she doesn't have an abortion because the father want the child then she should not have to support the child she wanted to abort.

 

OK, so the mother has to go through the pain (and I mean intense physical pain; men seem to think giving birth is a walk in the park - my mother almost died having me) so that you can have 'your' child.

 

 

 

I wasn't aware the child's life was possessed by anyone except the child. Since the child does not biologically have a life of its own in the first five months of pregnancy, surely the only person who can actually take responsibility over its life is the person that 'life' is dependent upon - namely, the mother through its umbilical cord.

 

 

 

Throughout the whole of the pregnancy, you will do nothing to aid the foetus' development except make her pregnant in the first place. Therefore, it is the mother's right to decide. The dangerous nature of childbirth only strengthens that argument.

 

 

 

Why must you be so logical and make it hard for me to argue back? :lol:

 

 

 

on topic

 

 

 

I am strongly pro life, but realize that a full out abortion ban isnt going to do much except make some uncertified doctors in alleys a little richer. I think the end to abortions being legal for reason of low income or not desiring the baby should be earlier then the 5 month standard. Im not an expert on fetal development so not sure where to place it, but it should be something reasonable like two months after detection is possible. That should leave plenty of time to make a thought out choice, its not like someone would need 4-5 months to decide that, especially since most people have a strong opinion on whether they would have an abortion or not.

 

 

 

Now, there are some important exceptions to me thinking the limit should be at about 3 months. If the mother's life is in severe danger its their choice what to do, obviously Im not going to say that we should control whether people want to risk themself or not. If the fetus has a severe mental or physicalhandicap that would never allow for a respectable quality of life it is the mothers choice. By severe handicap I dont mean something like the child will suffer from add or will have asthma, I mean something that would be a terrible strain for the mother to live with, and would make the child not have a productive life. Obviously any disease that can be reasonably maintained or cured with a good quality of life would not be included in this.

 

 

 

Just dealing with people that say in case of incest or rape or maybe ripped condoms you do know about plan b pills right? Day after birth control but stuff only to take in emergency, that right there should get rid of a lot of those pregancies.

 

 

 

What we do need to do that I think almost everyone will agree on is prevent the amount of times someone will have to choose between an abortion or having the child, preventing more unplanned pregnancies. We need to have better sex ed programs in school and not the abstinance only stuff that does nothing. The plan b pills really need to be mentioned because they could eliminate alot of abortions.

[thrash-boy]

as long as the baby is not too far developed there's no problem in my opinion.

[mmmcannibalism]

What I really hate is the way people are saying that foetuses can survive from much early on than 40 weeks, and therefore the abortion limit should be reduced. Wtf? Whether or not the baby has any chance of survival, it is totally irrelevant... Science has no right to make decisions for a woman. A woman's choice should always come first.

 

 

 

actually the babies chance of survival is a very relevant factor. If the baby could live outside the woom what makes it not a human being and therefore protected by laws banning murder? debating whether something that cannot survive on its own can be eliminated is different then debating whether something that can survive can be legally eliminated. A baby that can survive on its own is the same as a newborn except that the fetus isnt as well developed and may need aid of a respirator and/or other life support temporarily.

[Ginger_Warrior]

That's life, Sure it may not fair but that's just how it is with our species, women are the ones who give birth.

 

But just because life isn't fair that doesn't mean we have to make it even more unfair by denying someone their child.

 

OK, well if we're going argue like that, men don't carry babies, men don't have the right to decide whether a foetus lives. That's life.

 

 

 

See how futile the argument "that's life" is?

[mahjdosdkfsnwosi]

I'm totally pro life.

[DaN]

That's life, Sure it may not fair but that's just how it is with our species, women are the ones who give birth.

 

But just because life isn't fair that doesn't mean we have to make it even more unfair by denying someone their child.

 

OK, well if we're going argue like that, men don't carry babies, men don't have the right to decide whether a foetus lives. That's life.

 

 

 

See how futile the argument "that's life" is?

 

 

 

So you cannot distinguish the difference between something we control and nature.

 

 

 

What gives you the right to kill someone else's baby?

 

 

 

If you want to be selfish and narrow minded, then if the father wants to abort will he also get the same right to abort againsed the woman's wishes?

[Ginger_Warrior]

So you cannot distinguish the difference between something we control and nature.

 

Do you mean me personally, or humans in general? In either case, you're wrong.

 

 

 

What gives you the right to kill someone else's baby?

 

Did you fail to read anything I actually wrote or did you just repeat yourself like a parrot? The argument I made was that it isn't your baby and it is not you going through the procedure. The same argument applies for the next quote:

 

If you want to be selfish and narrow minded, then if the father wants to abort will he also get the same right to abort againsed the woman's wishes?

 

Furthermore, I'm not arguing for a right to demand an abortion, I'm supporting the right for a woman to decide what she does with her body.

[magekillr]

Complicated. See, this is why I loved Senator Obama's response to this question because, well, it IS "above our pay grade".

 

 

 

Does life begin at conception? Absolutely, but it's just cells dividing...so it's not necessarily a human being in the sense that you and I are human beings. Is there a "set point" upon which a fetus can be officially a "baby"...yes, and it's when the baby is born. That is the only "official" time a baby can actually be labeled a "baby" because it no longer needs its mother.

 

 

 

I would NEVER condone a late term abortion (unless for health reasons), but for whatever reasons that could ensue, the option SHOULD be there.

 

 

 

There is no set time when life begins because of a.) how complicated this situation is and b.) babies develop at different times...there is no static time that you could say "Ok, you're 24 weeks old so you officially have human rights now!" It's a ridiculously complicated situation, and to belittle it like that would be asinine.

 

 

 

It's a PERSONAL decision about when "life" begins. That is why it is and should always be a choice. If they believe it to be at conception, then that's their prerogative. However, just because that's what they believe doesn't mean Sally Jones does.

 

 

 

Different cultures disagreed about this too, I should ask my friend who has done research about it, but I believe the Jews didn't believe the fetus had a "soul" until like 20-30 weeks into the pregnancy.

 

 

 

Another little piece of irony is that it always seems to be men arguing over this issue...

[venomai]

I am against it as, in my eyes, I see the fetus as just as human as anyone else. So basically I see it as murder, which it is.

 

So if the embryo has not yet developed into a fetus, you are fine with killing it? :lol:

 

 

 

A baby that can survive on its own is the same as a newborn except that the fetus isnt as well developed and may need aid of a respirator and/or other life support temporarily.

 

A baby inside of the womb is not surviving on its own. It is depending on the mother, and therefore it is not subject to the same rights that those of us outside the womb are subject to. ;)

[reaper88888]

I guess the real problem I have with pro-lifers is that they are trying to apply their personal code of ethics to a decision that is, and should be, a personal one. Just because you think that it is wrong doesn't necessarily meant that it is wrong. Abortion is purely a personal choice, and that is why it should be legal. I will say this again; just because some people think that it is wrong does not mean that it is wrong. If someone is opposed to abortions, fine, don't have one for your unwanted children. But don't try to keep other people from doing what they feel is the right thing.

 

 

 

And not to offend anyone here, but a large group of the "pro-life" people seem to be basing their arguments on their preconceived notion that souls exist (In the religious sense), and that makes it wrong to kill a fetus. Look, like I said, I don't have an issue with people choosing not to abort, that's what freedom of choice is all about, but religion should not influence the lives of people who do not follow that religion, let alone the making of laws. Religion has no business in politics or in other people's personal business.

 

 

 

Damn it, abortion is a purely personal choice, and there is no reason to allow other people to apply their own standards of ethics and morals to some else's life in this particular case. (I really didn't want to shove in those last 4 words, but if I hadn't someone would have assumed that I was talking about everything, not this particular issue... :wall: )

[limpbizkit]

No .. Shouldnt be allowed.

 

If a condom breaks ok.

 

If the kid wouldnt have the right to life it deserves ok.

 

If its rape Ok.

 

And obvious things like that.

 

But if you dont want a kid to begin with DONT have god damn sex.

 

 

 

Edit thanks to goat. ;)

[Cup Lion]

Abortion may be a personal choice, but it has negative effects on a lot of people around you, in addition to yourself. Things that affect other people when they don't even have a say in it should be considered more carefully.

[tripsis]

Abortion may be a personal choice, but it has negative effects on a lot of people around you, in addition to yourself. Things that affect other people when they don't even have a say in it should be considered more carefully.

 

What do you mean by that? If a man and woman both agree to abort, how does that decision negatively affect other people?

 

 

 

And for the record, I do think that a woman needs to discuss abortion with the "father" and he should definitely have a say. But in the end, I do think that the woman has the right to make the final decision, but the man's opinion should certainly be taken into account.

[wild_goat_14]

No .. Shouldnt be allowed.

 

If a condom breaks ok.

 

If the kid wouldnt have the right to life it deserves ok.

 

If its rape Ok.

 

And obvious things like that.

 

But if your sleeping WITHOUT a god damn condom its YOUR fault dont make others suffer because your to god damn stupid to use a condom.

 

 

 

1 and 5 are the same situation. You should say if you're stupid enough to have sex before you're ready for a kid, it is your fault. Here it is not ok.

 

 

 

I agree with the middle 3 though.

 

 

 

I will say this again; just because some people think that it is wrong does not mean that it is wrong.

 

 

 

Some people think that murder is wrong, but some don't. Does that make it right? Oh wait, bad example, because I'm comparing abortion to murder, which the two shouldn't be compared, even though abortion is just killing a baby...

[Cup Lion]

Tripsis,

 

 

 

92% Emotional deadening

 

(Reported either feeling less in touch with their emotions or feeling a "need to stifle their emotions")

 

86% Increased tendency toward anger or rage

 

(48% reported they became more violent when angered)

 

86% Had a fear of others learning of the abortion or a greater sense of fear for unknown reasons

 

82% Greater feelings of loneliness or isolation

 

75% Had less self-confidence

 

73% Sexual dysfunctions

 

(Increased pain during intercourse, promiscuity, frigidity, or loss of pleasure)

 

63% Denial

 

(Respondents were asked, "Was there a period of time when you would have denied the existence of any doubts or negative feelings about your abortion?" Of those responding yes, the average period of denial that they reported was 5.25 years.)

 

58% Suffered from insomnia or nightmares

 

57% Greater difficulty in maintaining or developing relationships

 

56% Suicidal feelings

 

53% Increased or began use of drugs or alcohol

 

39% Eating disorders which began after the abortion

 

(binge eating, anorexia, or bulimia)

 

28% Attempted suicide

 

 

 

Link

 

 

 

I'll just explain a few, because most are selft explanatory.

 

 

 

86% Increased tendency toward anger or rage

 

(48% reported they became more violent when angered)

 

Of course, anger and rage, and violence due to it can affect family members who the post-abortion woman takes this anger out on.

 

 

 

56% Suicidal feelings

 

28% Attempted suicide

 

Please tell me you know how suicide and feelings relating to it can greatly affect family members and friends in an emotional way.

[warren211]

^Fully agreed with the post above, abortion does quite a lot of harm even if you're convinced you don't want the baby. My priest gave my class a newspaper on marriage, love, abortion, etc. I should copy some of the info from it. It's rather fascinating.

[limpbizkit]

Abortion may be a personal choice, but it has negative effects on a lot of people around you, in addition to yourself. Things that affect other people when they don't even have a say in it should be considered more carefully.

 

What do you mean by that? If a man and woman both agree to abort, how does that decision negatively affect other people?

 

 

 

And for the record, I do think that a woman needs to discuss abortion with the "father" and he should definitely have a say. But in the end, I do think that the woman has the right to make the final decision, but the man's opinion should certainly be taken into account.

 

 

 

Heres where you hate me ... It affects one more person .. A person that doesnt even get a chance of life even tho the family CAN support the child etc.

[Roberthree]

, even though abortion is just killing a baby...

 

 

 

Calling a fetus a baby won't get you extra sympathy. I disprove of killing babies. I believe terminating a fetus is up to the woman since at that point it's HER body.

 

 

 

This is like me asking my doctor to remove my appendix and getting picketed about it >_>

[scootlaboot]

Abortion may be a personal choice, but it has negative effects on a lot of people around you, in addition to yourself. Things that affect other people when they don't even have a say in it should be considered more carefully.

 

What do you mean by that? If a man and woman both agree to abort, how does that decision negatively affect other people?

 

 

 

And for the record, I do think that a woman needs to discuss abortion with the "father" and he should definitely have a say. But in the end, I do think that the woman has the right to make the final decision, but the man's opinion should certainly be taken into account.

 

Which is the way it should be.

 

 

 

Abortion is such a tricky subject to comment on, especially sense you get flamed no matter what you say 9/10. Personally I think when the fetus starts to give off brain waves, it should be considered alive and unabortable, and I don't know if anyone has brought it up before this post, but adoption is always an option.

[tripsis]

[hide=Massive Quote]

Tripsis,

 

 

 

92% Emotional deadening

 

(Reported either feeling less in touch with their emotions or feeling a "need to stifle their emotions")

 

86% Increased tendency toward anger or rage

 

(48% reported they became more violent when angered)

 

86% Had a fear of others learning of the abortion or a greater sense of fear for unknown reasons

 

82% Greater feelings of loneliness or isolation

 

75% Had less self-confidence

 

73% Sexual dysfunctions

 

(Increased pain during intercourse, promiscuity, frigidity, or loss of pleasure)

 

63% Denial

 

(Respondents were asked, "Was there a period of time when you would have denied the existence of any doubts or negative feelings about your abortion?" Of those responding yes, the average period of denial that they reported was 5.25 years.)

 

58% Suffered from insomnia or nightmares

 

57% Greater difficulty in maintaining or developing relationships

 

56% Suicidal feelings

 

53% Increased or began use of drugs or alcohol

 

39% Eating disorders which began after the abortion

 

(binge eating, anorexia, or bulimia)

 

28% Attempted suicide

 

 

 

Link

 

 

 

I'll just explain a few, because most are selft explanatory.

 

 

 

86% Increased tendency toward anger or rage

 

(48% reported they became more violent when angered)

 

Of course, anger and rage, and violence due to it can affect family members who the post-abortion woman takes this anger out on.

 

 

 

56% Suicidal feelings

 

28% Attempted suicide

 

Please tell me you know how suicide and feelings relating to it can greatly affect family members and friends in an emotional way.

[/hide]

 

But those results are from only 260 women in the world. Not everyone who gets an abortion will feel those affects. In fact, when you're looking at only 260 people, I personally don't really think you can use those statistics to argue that most of the people in the world would feel those affects. I know several people who have gotten abortions and none of them have displayed any such side affects. And you have to keep in mind that those 260 women were not random women who had received abortions. From the website:

 

 

 

This is a partial list of symptoms drawn from a survey of 260 women who, on average, had their first abortion 10.6 years prior to being surveyed. These women were volunteers who either were seeking post-abortion counseling, had participated in post-abortion counseling in the past, or had a history of prior abortion and were seeking help at a crisis pregnancy center to carry a subsequent pregnancy to term.

 

That means that all 260 of those women were already having problems after abortion. If the survey was repeated with 260 RANDOM women who received an abortion, rather than 260 women who were seeking post-abortion counseling, I'm sure the statistics would be much lower.

 

 

 

No .. Shouldnt be allowed.

 

If a condom breaks ok.

 

If the kid wouldnt have the right to life it deserves ok.

 

If its rape Ok.

 

And obvious things like that.

 

But if your sleeping WITHOUT a god damn condom its YOUR fault dont make others suffer because your to god damn stupid to use a condom.

 

 

 

1 and 5 are the same situation. You should say if you're stupid enough to have sex before you're ready for a kid, it is your fault. Here it is not ok.

 

 

 

I agree with the middle 3 though.

 

 

 

I will say this again; just because some people think that it is wrong does not mean that it is wrong.

 

 

 

Some people think that murder is wrong, but some don't. Does that make it right? Oh wait, bad example, because I'm comparing abortion to murder, which the two shouldn't be compared, even though abortion is just killing a baby...

 

I think the point is that some people do not consider a fetus a "baby" because up until a certain point it is completely dependent on the mother for survival. Not everyone considers abortion as murder.

[wild_goat_14]

Abortion may be a personal choice, but it has negative effects on a lot of people around you, in addition to yourself. Things that affect other people when they don't even have a say in it should be considered more carefully.

 

What do you mean by that? If a man and woman both agree to abort, how does that decision negatively affect other people?

 

 

 

And for the record, I do think that a woman needs to discuss abortion with the "father" and he should definitely have a say. But in the end, I do think that the woman has the right to make the final decision, but the man's opinion should certainly be taken into account.

 

Which is the way it should be.

 

 

 

Abortion is such a tricky subject to comment on, especially sense you get flamed no matter what you say 9/10. Personally I think when the fetus starts to give off brain waves, it should be considered alive and unabortable, and I don't know if anyone has brought it up before this post, but adoption is always an option.

 

 

 

Adoption?!? What the hell?!?

 

 

 

We'd rather just eliminate the "problem" altogether than give the innocent baby to someone else sp they can live a life, just because we are afraid to hear in 10-15 years "Why did you abandon me?"

 

 

 

Of course, we'd rather have it so we can have sex all we want with no repurcussions! No babies, abortion is so much easier, plus, we only go a few weeks without sex, instead of 6-8 months! WOOHOO!

 

 

 

Seriously, it is sad that people would rather KILL their baby than give it to someone else so it can live its life, which they should have the right to do.

[warren211]

It's not just the woman's body. There is a human life inside of her body. And as early as a few weeks old, that baby is a human. In fact it's a human as soon as conception occurs. A woman doesn't have "two beating hearts, two blood types, two heads, four eyes, four arms, and four legs." (quoted from the lovematters advertisement supplement Volume 9, 2005 edition)

 

 

 

Consider this statement from a magazine I have about abortion:

 

 

 

Eleven years ago, while giving an anesthetic for a ruptured ectopic pregnancy (at eight week's gestation), I was handed what I believe was the smallest living human ever seen. The embryonic sac was intact and transparent. Within the sac was a tiny human male swimming extremely vigorously in the amniotic fluid, while attached to the wall by the umbilical cord. This tiny human was perfectly developed, with long, tapering fingers, feet, and toes. It was almost transparent, as regards the skin, and the delicate arteries and veins were prominent to the ends of the fingers.

 

 

 

The baby was extremely alive and swam about the sac approximately one time per second, with a natural swimmers stroke. The tiny human did not look at all like the photos and drawings and models of 'embryos' which I had seen, nor did it look like a few embryos I have been able to observe sicne then, obviously because this one was alive!

 

 

 

When the sac was opened, the tiny human immediatly lost his life and took on the appearance of what is accepted as the appearance of am embryo at this stage of life (with blunt extremeties, etc.)

 

-Paul E. Rockwell, M.D., anesthesiologist.

 

 

 

If anyone can look at me and say human life is not present at conception or the first few weeks, you're a fool. A baby is a baby from conception to the 9th month, the only difference is the stage of development.

 

 

 

Next, some quotes from professionals in the field of genetics on when life is present.

 

 

 

By all criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present at the moment of conception.

-Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman of the Department of genetics at the Mayo Clinic

 

 

 

The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception.

 

-Dr. McCarthy De Mere, medical doctor and law professor at the University of Tennessee

 

 

 

The whole "it's the woman's body" and "it's a fetus" doesn't work. The difference between a fetus and a baby is the baby has it's basic form for birth, at appx 8 weeks. A fetus is in it's early stage of development. Does that make it any less of a human? Because it's dependent on another person to survive? So are normal babies, but they're not attached to their mother. So are severely ill people, so are those suffering from serious mental illnesses. So are the elderly. We might as well start another Holocaust then, getting rid of those who can't live on their own whom no one wants to take care of in this world.

[Cup Lion]

Seriously, it is sad that people would rather KILL their baby than give it to someone else so it can live its life, which they should have the right to do.

 

Women would rather abort than give up to adoption because of the physical pain of giving birth. Which I find funny, since an abortion has negative physical side affects that seem to be much worse.

 

 

 

Neat thing about adoption, though. If you take that route, the mother gets to see her "unwanted" baby before hand, and many times, nerfs the adoption plan and keeps it. :thumbup:

[deloriagod]

So abortion is wrong. The child has a right to life. And a chance that he/she will be abused, emotionally/physically ignored, or worse within that life? I'd rather have mothers get abortions than have more kids being abused and such. I don't give a [cabbage] who thinks abortion is wrong, isn't abuse wrong as well? So go ahead and force that kid to live with a mother who didn't want it. Oh yes, that will end well.