kehllz Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 I don't see the problem with Israel kicking some Hamas butt in Gaza, after all, Hamas started it all. What I don't get is why Israel is being made into the antagonist of the story. They've always been the underdog in the Middle East without any nearby allies. They've been forced into this offensive by Hamas and now the world is up in arms about it. And a "proportinate response" is stupid. If you want to punch me in the face and KNOW that all I'll do is punch you in the face, then if you're desire to punch me in the face outweighs you're indesire to get punched in the face, then you will. If, on the other hand, you know I'll pull a knife and cut you up, then you will be more hesitant to punch me in the face, unless you are suicidal, in which case the argument doesn't work. Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence. -Napoleon Bonaparte Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein Global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. -Bobby Henderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 If, on the other hand, you know I'll pull a knife and cut you up, then you will be more hesitant to punch me in the face, unless you are suicidal, in which case the argument doesn't work. In which case, you face inevitable custody. ;) | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenticular_J Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 I know, self defense laws totally prohibit that. catch it now so you can like it before it went so mainstream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehllz Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 But still, you sure as hell aren't going to punch me in the face, now are you? Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence. -Napoleon Bonaparte Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein Global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. -Bobby Henderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forestfrolic Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I don't see the problem with Israel kicking some Hamas butt in Gaza, after all, Hamas started it all. What I don't get is why Israel is being made into the antagonist of the story. They've always been the underdog in the Middle East without any nearby allies. They've been forced into this offensive by Hamas and now the world is up in arms about it. And a "proportinate response" is stupid. If you want to punch me in the face and KNOW that all I'll do is punch you in the face, then if you're desire to punch me in the face outweighs you're indesire to get punched in the face, then you will. If, on the other hand, you know I'll pull a knife and cut you up, then you will be more hesitant to punch me in the face, unless you are suicidal, in which case the argument doesn't work. Do you even know the history between Israel and the Hamas? At all? The Hamas is a group that is fed up with Israel because they are being oppressed. Yes, the Hamas should not be attacking Israel. But when you say there's nothing wrong with blind airstrikes by Israel in the Gaza strip.. that is disgusting. Israel wants to "wipe out" the Hamas. No matter how hard they try, Hamas will always exist. You cannot violently deplete a group. And The Gaza strip is so dense, that innocent casualties, will vastly outnumber the Hamas dead. Nemo vir est qui mundum non reddat meliorem.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matok Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 But when you say there's nothing wrong with blind airstrikes by Israel in the Gaza strip.. that is disgusting. When people make stupid statements without knowing what they talk about...now that's disgusting. The Hamas is a group that is fed up with Israel because they are being oppressed. I suggest you go read a bit, you can start here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orpheus Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Am I the only one who thinks that the title made me think of a woman from Gaza stripping, or a woman named Gaza stripping? I was going to eat hot dogs for dinner tonight. I think I will settle for cereal. OPEN WIDE HERE COMES THE HELICOPTER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 But still, you sure as hell aren't going to punch me in the face, now are you? Did that argument prevent the 1916 Easter Rising? Or the 1919 Anglo-Irish War? And believe me, the Black and Tans were offering much more than knives for punches. | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magekillr Posted January 2, 2009 Author Share Posted January 2, 2009 If Hamas Did Not Exist: Israel Has No Intention of Granting a Palestinian State If Hamas Did Not Exist By JENNIFER LOEWENSTEIN Let us get one thing perfectly straight. If the wholesale mutilation and degradation of the Gaza Strip is going to continue; if Israels will is at one with that of the United States; if the European Union, Russia, the United Nations and all the international legal agencies and organizations spread across the globe are going to continue to sit by like hollow mannequins doing nothing but making repeated calls for a ceasefire on both sides; if the cowardly, obsequious and supine Arab States are going to stand by watching their brethren get slaughtered by the hour while the worlds bullying Superpower eyes them threateningly from Washington lest they say something a little to their disliking; then let us at least tell the truth why this hell on earth is taking place. The state terror unleashed from the skies and on the ground against the Gaza Strip as we speak has nothing to do with Hamas. It has nothing to do with Terror. It has nothing to do with the long-term security of the Jewish State or with Hizbullah or Syria or Iran except insofar as it is aggravating the conditions that have led up to this crisis today. It has nothing to do with some conjured-up war a cynical and overused euphemism that amounts to little more the wholesale enslavement of any nation that dares claim its sovereign rights; that dares assert that its resources are its own; that doesnt want one of the Empires obscene military bases sitting on its cherished land. This crisis has nothing to do with freedom, democracy, justice or peace. It is not about Mahmoud Zahhar or Khalid Mashal or Ismail Haniyeh. It is not about Hassan Nasrallah or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. These are all circumstantial players who have gained a role in the current tempest only now that the situation has been allowed for 61 years to develop into the catastrophe that it is today. The Islamist factor has colored and will continue to color the atmosphere of the crisis; it has enlisted the current leaders and mobilized wide sectors of the worlds population. The primary symbols today are Islamic the mosques, the Quran, the references to the Prophet Muhammad and to Jihad. But these symbols could disappear and the impasse would continue. There was a time when Fatah and the PFLP held the day; when few Palestinians wanted anything to do with Islamist policies and politics. Such politics have nothing to do with primitive rockets being fired over the border, or smuggling tunnels and black-market weapons; just as Arafats Fatah had little to do with stones and suicide bombings. The associations are coincidental; the creations of a given political environment. They are the result of something entirely different than what the lying politicians and their analysts are telling you. They have become part of the landscape of human events in the modern Middle East today; but incidentals wholly as lethal, or as recalcitrant, deadly, angry or incorrigible could just as soon have been in their places. Strip away the clichés and the vacuous newspeak blaring out across the servile media and its pathetic corps of voluntary state servants in the Western world and what you will find is the naked desire for hegemony; for power over the weak and dominion over the worlds wealth. Worse yet you will find that the selfishness, the hatred and indifference, the racism and bigotry, the egotism and hedonism that we try so hard to cover up with our sophisticated jargon, our refined academic theories and models actually help to guide our basest and ugliest desires. The callousness with which we in indulge in them all are endemic to our very culture; thriving here like flies on a corpse. Strip away the current symbols and language of the victims of our selfish and devastating whims and you will find the simple, impassioned and unaffected cries of the downtrodden; of the wretched of the earth begging you to cease your cold aggression against their children and their homes; their families and their villages; begging you to leave them alone to have their fish and their bread, their oranges, their olives and their thyme; asking you first politely and then with increasing disbelief why you cannot let them live undisturbed on the land of their ancestors; unexploited, free of the fear of expulsion; of ravishment and devastation; free of permits and roadblocks and checkpoints and crossings; of monstrous concrete walls, guard towers, concrete bunkers, and barbed wire; of tanks and prisons and torture and death. Why is life without these policies and instruments of hell impossible? The answer is because Israel has no intention of allowing a viable, sovereign Palestinian state on its borders. It had no intention of allowing it in 1948 when it grabbed 24 per cent more land than what it was allotted legally, if unfairly, by UN Resolution 181. It had no intention of allowing it throughout the massacres and ploys of the 1950s. It had no intention of allowing two states when it conquered the remaining 22 per cent of historic Palestine in 1967 and reinterpreted UN Security Council Resolution 248 to its own liking despite the overwhelming international consensus stating that Israel would receive full international recognition within secure and recognized borders if it withdrew from the lands it had only recently occupied. It had no intention of acknowledging Palestinian national rights at the United Nations in 1974, when alone with the United Statesit voted against a two-state solution. It had no intention of allowing a comprehensive peace settlement when Egypt stood ready to deliver but received, and obediently accepted, a separate peace exclusive of the rights of Palestinians and the remaining peoples of the region. It had no intention of working toward a just two-state solution in 1978 or 1982 when it invaded, fire-bombed, blasted and bulldozed Beirut so that it might annex the West Bank without hassle. It had no intention of granting a Palestinian state in 1987 when the first Intifada spread across occupied Palestine, into the Diaspora and the into the spirits of the global dispossessed, or when Israel deliberately aided the newly formed Hamas movement so that it might undermine the strength of the more secular-nationalist factions. Israel had no intention of granting a Palestinian state at Madrid or at Oslo where the PLO was superseded by the quivering, quisling Palestinian Authority, too many of whose cronies grasped at the wealth and prestige it gave them at the expense of their own kin. As Israel beamed into the worlds satellites and microphones its desire for peace and a two-state solution, it more than doubled the number of illegal Jewish settlements on the ground in the West Bank and around East Jerusalem, annexing them as it built and continues to build a superstructure of bypass roads and highways over the remaining, severed cities and villages of earthly Palestine. It has annexed the Jordan valley, the international border of Jordan, expelling any locals inhabiting that land. It speaks with a vipers tongue over the multiple amputee of Palestine whose head shall soon be severed from its body in the name of justice, peace and security. Through the home demolitions, the assaults on civil society that attempted to cast Palestinian history and culture into a chasm of oblivion; through the unspeakable destruction of the refugee camp sieges and infrastructure bombardments of the second Intifada, through assassinations and summary executions, past the grandiose farce of disengagement and up to the nullification of free, fair and democratic Palestinian elections Israel has made its view known again and again in the strongest possible language, the language of military might, of threats, intimidation, harassment, defamation and degradation. Israel, with the unconditional and approving support of the United States, has made it dramatically clear to the entire world over and over and over again, repeating in action after action that it will accept no viable Palestinian state next to its borders. What will it take for the rest of us to hear? What will it take to end the criminal silence of the international community? What will it take to see past the lies and indoctrination to what is taking place before us day after day in full view of the eyes of the world? The more horrific the actions on the ground, the more insistent are the words of peace. To listen and watch without hearing or seeing allows the indifference, the ignorance and complicity to continue and deepens with each grave our collective shame. The destruction of Gaza has nothing to do with Hamas. Israel will accept no authority in the Palestinian territories that it does not ultimately control. Any individual, leader, faction or movement that fails to accede to Israels demands or that seeks genuine sovereignty and the equality of all nations in the region; any government or popular movement that demands the applicability of international humanitarian law and of the universal declaration of human rights for its own people will be unacceptable for the Jewish State. Those dreaming of one state must be forced to ask themselves what Israel would do to a population of 4 million Palestinians within its borders when it commits on a daily, if not hourly basis, crimes against their collective humanity while they live alongside its borders? What will suddenly make the raison detre, the self-proclaimed purpose of Israels reason for being change if the Palestinian territories are annexed to it outright? The lifeblood of the Palestinian National Movement flows through the streets of Gaza today. Every drop that falls waters the soil of vengeance, bitterness and hatred not only in Palestine but across the Middle East and much of the world. We do have a choice over whether or not this should continue. Now is the time to make it. Jennifer Loewenstein is the Associate Director of the Middle East Studies Program at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. She can be reached at [email protected] http://www.counterpunch.org/loewenstein01012009.html Yes I'm citing Counterpunch, deal with it. It's an excellent article/commentary/whatever you'd like to call it. I would also suggest you watch the documentary about Israel-Palestine, "Occupation 101". The link is provided below: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0811690589 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieMcD Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 But when you say there's nothing wrong with blind airstrikes by Israel in the Gaza strip.. that is disgusting. Hamas has been doing the exact same, Hamas aren't saints in any light, nor is Israel though. The Hamas is a group that is fed up with Israel because they are being oppressed. They aren't being oppressed, I certianly don't agree with what Israel is doing but oppression isn't the word to describe it. Read up on Hamas, if anything they've been "oppressing" Israel for the last few years. Ginger, good argument but I doubt he / she will have any understanding of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenticular_J Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Meh. It's an extreme view where she hates Israel. She's right though - Israel wants to control Gaza. Why shouldn't they? They're at war, their people are being killed - and Palestineans are the ones getting [bleep]ed by both sides. Palestinean attacks are so random and just aimed to provoke pain that a good number hit Palestine. And Israel is pretty much tired of it. It's a crappy situation. Hear that part of the world is actually quite beautiful; my carpenter was born near there... EDIT: Fixed a couple typos. catch it now so you can like it before it went so mainstream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebdragon Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I've always felt a certain level of disgust towards Israel but this feeling of mine has gone somewhat unexplained to me. That article definitely fixed that problem :-k . [if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.] Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harakiri Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Am I the only one who thinks that the title made me think of a woman from Gaza stripping, or a woman named Gaza stripping? :lol: :? I kinda thought so too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaserDude333 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 @Magekillr Nobody likes the Palestinians, nobody wants to deal with them. They're outcasts in the middle east. A few years ago they crossed the border to Egypt I think and 200 of them were shot and killed. They've been thrown out of countries for years, why should it be different here? I ate 620+ brains!! Whoa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l0l0lpur32 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I'm shocked at all the anti-semitism on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLancer Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 They've been thrown out of countries for years, why should it be different here? I have nothing against jews, just remember... You're living in a land area *they* were thrown out of because Europeans decided they had a collective feeling of guilt after the holocaust. They aren't rejected from countries, where are people getting this stuff from? Egypt has been constantly helping palestinians: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/12/ ... Border.php Egypt takes in first wounded from Gaza Egypt started taking in a trickle of wounded Palestinians from the Gaza Strip on Monday. An Egyptian official said 32 Gazans were taken to hospitals in Egypt as the Israeli assault on the coastal area continued for the third day. Around mid-afternoon, ambulances ferried the wounded from Gaza toward the crossing in the border town of Rafah, where over a dozen Egyptian ambulances waited to take over the casualties. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081222/wl ... asegyptaid EL-ARISH, Egypt (AFP) A convoy carrying a million dollars of Egyptian food and medical aid is expected to enter the Gaza Strip after Hamas agreed on Monday to a 24-hour unilateral truce with Israel to allow it in. The aid can enter after Hamas official Ayman Taha said the Islamists and other armed factions in Gaza accepted "a calm for a 24-hour period following Egyptian mediation in exchange for the delivery of aid from Egypt." Egyptian Foreign Ministry spokesman Hossam Zaki told AFP that "we asked both both parties to create a suitable atmosphere to allow an Egyptian humanitarian convoy from the Egyptian Red Crescent to enter Gaza in security." As an Israeli it's surprising that you don't know at all what you're talking about. Countless countries give help to Palestinians both politically and financially, even the European Union has given massive aid to the Palestinians despite Hamas being elected http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/18/news/union.php The EU, which cut off all direct funding to the Palestinian Authority after the Islamic party Hamas won free elections 15 months ago, said it would release hundreds of millions of euros in aid. More than 700 million worth of humanitarian and emergency aid was distributed in 2006 through a special Temporary International Mechanism that dealt directly with nongovernmental organizations and donors rather than political institutions. Saying they are somehow "rejected" is totally racist, inaccurate and ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 @Magekillr Nobody likes the Palestinians, nobody wants to deal with them. They're outcasts in the middle east. I find it wholesomely touching you treat those Palestinians with the contempt of a lame horse that needs putting down. Those are human beings. To say you're protecting civilian life through your actions, and then to kill 400+ people in the process is ridiculous. Above all else, your attitude tells me what I've suspected about Israel for a long time - it couldn't give a rat's [wagon] about its own people, it just wants to control the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieMcD Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 @Magekillr Nobody likes the Palestinians, nobody wants to deal with them. They're outcasts in the middle east. A few years ago they crossed the border to Egypt I think and 200 of them were shot and killed. They've been thrown out of countries for years, why should it be different here? It's that kind of discriminate attitude why I hold a lower opinion of Israel, the Palestinians are people like you and me. Nothing makes them anything less of a person purely because where they're from. You've lowered my opinion now of Israel further, well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magekillr Posted January 2, 2009 Author Share Posted January 2, 2009 I'm shocked at all the anti-semitism on this thread. And this is why no one wants to deal with the situation in the United States. You know what? Fine, call me an antisemite, I know that I love all humans equally, and hold no contempt against Jewish people. I do, however, hold contempt against the state of Israel. It could be controlled by rich white Europeans and I would still hold the same contempt for the state. What would that make me then? Racist against white people? If it makes me an antisemite to call the State of Israel out on its [cabbage] agenda throughout its entire history, then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l0l0lpur32 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 808257.stm "We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity," senior Hamas figure Fathi Hammad said at the funeral for the 20 people who died in that attack. I assume all the Hamas-supporters on here agree with his goal of completing the "Final Solution"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1_man_army Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7808257.stm "We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity," senior Hamas figure Fathi Hammad said at the funeral for the 20 people who died in that attack. I assume all the Hamas-supporters on here agree with his goal of completing the "Final Solution"? I don't remember anyone saying that they supported Hamas. He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l0l0lpur32 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7808257.stm "We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity," senior Hamas figure Fathi Hammad said at the funeral for the 20 people who died in that attack. I assume all the Hamas-supporters on here agree with his goal of completing the "Final Solution"? I don't remember anyone saying that they supported Hamas. A lot of people seem eager to justify their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1_man_army Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Just because you can see reasons behind what they're doing doesn't mean you agree with what they are doing. Just because people criticise Israel's tactics doesn't make you an anti-semitic either. That being said, yes, many members of Hamas are bigoted, I don't agree with that and I don't think anyone would try to justify anti-semitism nor should anyone support the hardliners in Israel who despise Arabs and Muslims. I find racism intolerable on all fronts. I think you need to strike a better balance between what you consider racism with a criticism of tactics and governmental actions. He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesenator Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Israeli dissident analytic writes that IDF op in Gaza is already stuck, Israelis are bogged down, and basically that's the end of the war: http://samsonblinded.org/news/israeli-a ... entum-5424 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger_Warrior Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 A lot of people seem eager to justify their actions. An argument is usually defunct if both sides cannot justify their respective positions. Hence, I suppose starving them to death with a "food crisis" (UN) is a justifiable response to Hamas' rocket attacks, no? | Favourite Game Music | Last.fm | HYT Friend Chat Rules | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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