And I'm sure if you were a women that you'd feel the same. Honestly, I'm not going to the bear the child when I have no idea who the father is. And I'm certainly not going to bear the child when I don't have the financial support to give him a good childhood.

 

 

 

This is what I have a problem with, however. Just because you don't know who the father is, you can just kill the baby? What did it possibly do to deserve that? My parents are quite poor to be honest. They struggle to make ends meet, and they have 7 kids. My childhood...I couldn't have asked for a better one. I wore old, hand me down clothes. I got crappy christmas presents. I never had the new toys that everyone else did. I have to pay for college on my own steam. But I was loved. And love is enough to make any life worth living.

 

You were lucky. Not all mothers are going to love their daughters. Having a child is a great responsibility, and unless you actually have been in the situation, you cannot relate.

 

 

 

I agree completely. Not all parents will love their children.

 

 

 

But my question is simple.

 

 

 

Does that give you(or anyone) the right to kill an innocent child? Does it? I think not.

 

No it does not, but abortion isn't the killing of a child its the killing of a fetus.

 

 

 

As I have stated before; scientists have proven that a fetus is alive. Therefore, it is a human being. Why do you think it isn't? It looks different?

 

 

 

I look different from you, I am sure. Does that mean I am human and you are not? No.

 

And I'm sure if you were a women that you'd feel the same. Honestly, I'm not going to the bear the child when I have no idea who the father is. And I'm certainly not going to bear the child when I don't have the financial support to give him a good childhood.

 

 

 

This is what I have a problem with, however. Just because you don't know who the father is, you can just kill the baby? What did it possibly do to deserve that? My parents are quite poor to be honest. They struggle to make ends meet, and they have 7 kids. My childhood...I couldn't have asked for a better one. I wore old, hand me down clothes. I got crappy christmas presents. I never had the new toys that everyone else did. I have to pay for college on my own steam. But I was loved. And love is enough to make any life worth living.

 

You were lucky. Not all mothers are going to love their daughters. Having a child is a great responsibility, and unless you actually have been in the situation, you cannot relate.

 

 

 

I agree completely. Not all parents will love their children.

 

 

 

But my question is simple.

 

 

 

Does that give you(or anyone) the right to kill an innocent child? Does it? I think not.

 

No it does not, but abortion isn't the killing of a child its the killing of a fetus.

 

 

 

As I have stated before; scientists have proven that a fetus is alive. Therefore, it is a human being. Why do you think it isn't? It looks different?

 

 

 

I look different from you, I am sure. Does that mean I am human and you are not? No.

 

Its different because, well, maybe it hasn't developed yet? Whoo shocker! And just because its alive doesn't mean its human. Cow = alive, cow =/= human. Saying the "It's life" argument doesn't work because we already kill living organisms all the time and only PETA are complaining about it.

 

And I'm sure if you were a women that you'd feel the same. Honestly, I'm not going to the bear the child when I have no idea who the father is. And I'm certainly not going to bear the child when I don't have the financial support to give him a good childhood.

 

 

 

This is what I have a problem with, however. Just because you don't know who the father is, you can just kill the baby? What did it possibly do to deserve that? My parents are quite poor to be honest. They struggle to make ends meet, and they have 7 kids. My childhood...I couldn't have asked for a better one. I wore old, hand me down clothes. I got crappy christmas presents. I never had the new toys that everyone else did. I have to pay for college on my own steam. But I was loved. And love is enough to make any life worth living.

 

You were lucky. Not all mothers are going to love their daughters. Having a child is a great responsibility, and unless you actually have been in the situation, you cannot relate.

 

 

 

I agree completely. Not all parents will love their children.

 

 

 

But my question is simple.

 

 

 

Does that give you(or anyone) the right to kill an innocent child? Does it? I think not.

 

No it does not, but abortion isn't the killing of a child its the killing of a fetus.

 

 

 

As I have stated before; scientists have proven that a fetus is alive. Therefore, it is a human being. Why do you think it isn't? It looks different?

 

 

 

I look different from you, I am sure. Does that mean I am human and you are not? No.

I'm not saying it's an easy choice, certainly not. But I'm not going to let my child grow up in a crack house while I'm in college, just because I can't pay for it.

There are far better options then a crack house. But no matter how bad the situation may be, killing an innocent child is wrong.

 

 

 

And to nick: A cow doesn't equal a human. But a young human not fully developed does. A two year old child "hasn't fully developed yet", so why don't we kill it, because it inconveniences us?

 

To be honest, we are "developing" our entire life. We only stop developing once we stop changing, and we are always changing, untill the day we die.

 

And the reason for parental consent in abortion is simply because the daughter has made a mistake; a teenager who has messed up that bad before they're even out of the house needs to be rectified. Or at least, that's the general view that society has.

 

 

 

I ask again: if your daughter was pregnant, would you want to know it? It instills a sense of security.

 

 

 

The daughter hasn't made a mistake. Married couples get pregnant when they really really don't want to sometimes. Often when they are as incapable of raising a child as the teenage daughter is. But no one calls it a "mistake". As to the abortion, it is a responsible choice for her to get one. In fact, if she doesn't, her and the kid are pretty much f***ed. (I recognize that she could consider adoption as a 3rd option)

 

 

 

In regards to parents having the right to know, well, some (may i even go as far as saying many?) parents arn't exactly perfect decision makers themselves. They may force her to have the child due to a decision based off of stubborn religious principles :shame: . And do you really want your parents knowing when you're pregnant? And do they really need to know? If a doctor MUST notify parents, then that would encourage self-abortions, and hidden pregnancies. (young women should feel comfortable in getting the attention they need)

 

 

 

Theres a lot of things we want to know. But you have to remember we are all people, young and old, with our individual rights to privacy. :thumbsup:

 

 

 

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't read this.

 

 

 

Erm, people under 18 don't really have rights...they have a few, but not many. They have writ of Habeus Corpus, life, liberty, and pursuit of property, but that's pretty much it.

 

 

 

Also, Nick, a cow doesn't have the potential to turn into a human. That's what the difference here is. And it's pretty big.

There are far better options then a crack house. But no matter how bad the situation may be, killing an innocent child is wrong.

 

 

 

And to nick: A cow doesn't equal a human. But a young human not fully developed does.

 

I live in a one room apartment - no bedroom. It is, perhaps the size of a moderate living room. Certainly I don't use drugs, but there isn't room for a child to develop here. Certainly I would not want one to. Nor do I think I have the experience or time to raise one.

It's not developed up to a certain stage. That stage is commonly refereed to birth. While I think killing a baby a few weeks before that is wrong, its far off the abortion range.

 

 

 

And are all you going to do is cite specifics until Page 485 of this thread?

There are far better options then a crack house. But no matter how bad the situation may be, killing an innocent child is wrong.

 

 

 

And to nick: A cow doesn't equal a human. But a young human not fully developed does.

 

I live in a one room apartment - no bedroom. It is, perhaps the size of a moderate living room. Certainly I don't use drugs, but there isn't room for a child to develop here. Certainly I would not want one to. Nor do I think I have the experience or time to raise one.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree completely, I am sure many are in a far worse situation then you are. I am very sure that many children are born into non-ideal situations. But my point is, you cannot just kill it to fix the problem. No matter how you put it, no matter for what reason, you are still killing an innocent human being.

 

 

 

It's not developed up to a certain stage. That stage is commonly refereed to birth. While I think killing a baby a few weeks before that is wrong, its far off the abortion range.

 

 

 

And are all you going to do is cite specifics until Page 485 of this thread?

 

 

 

It's developing. Just as we all do, every day. And yes, I will quote specifics, rather then posting vague ideas.

 

 

 

You think killing a baby is wrong a few weeks before abortion. Basically you are putting a condition on life. Scientists have proven that life begins at conception, at the beginning.

 

 

 

In life, there is the beginning, and the end. There is no middle ground.

 

 

 

What happens if we use the "middle ground" philosophy?

 

 

 

A baby - you can kill it until it emerges into the world.

 

A child - you can beat it until it does what you want.

 

An innocent person - you can rob them untill you get caught.

 

 

 

There are countless examples. You cannot put a condition on small things such as these, much less on the life of a human being.

OT: Necrophilia! 'A Little Piece of Heaven' by Avenged Sevenfold.

 

 

 

There are far better options then a crack house. But no matter how bad the situation may be, killing an innocent child is wrong.

 

 

 

And to nick: A cow doesn't equal a human. But a young human not fully developed does.

 

I live in a one room apartment - no bedroom. It is, perhaps the size of a moderate living room. Certainly I don't use drugs, but there isn't room for a child to develop here. Certainly I would not want one to. Nor do I think I have the experience or time to raise one.

 

 

 

 

 

At any rate, Laura, you seem sensible enough to know, then, that you shouldn't get pregnant. However, if you were arrogant or foolish enough to have unprotected sex, and you got pregnant, whose fault is it that you now a carry a child within yourself? Really, it's yours. You don't have to concede to your boyfriend / husband if they refuse to wear a husband, and if they go ahead and do it anyway, it's rape.

 

 

 

Rape abortion, at any rate is different...

 

 

 

Adoption is always something to be considered then. If it's your fault, then why rob the child of life? That's a transfer of blame, or guilt, of the 'crime' (being unprotected and unplanned sex) and that's not right. That, in itself, IS a crime. Just because it doesn't have a voice doesn't make it a ready scapegoat to suffer for your stupidity.

 

 

 

If you really cannot raise a child because your family refuses to help (which I'd doubt) then you have the option of giving the child to an adoption agency (the Catholic Church is one) to be at least given the opportunity to live on this green earth.

 

 

 

EDIT: I think it'd be awesome if this got to page 485. :D

There are far better options then a crack house. But no matter how bad the situation may be, killing an innocent child is wrong.

 

 

 

And to nick: A cow doesn't equal a human. But a young human not fully developed does.

 

I live in a one room apartment - no bedroom. It is, perhaps the size of a moderate living room. Certainly I don't use drugs, but there isn't room for a child to develop here. Certainly I would not want one to. Nor do I think I have the experience or time to raise one.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree completely, I am sure many are in a far worse situation then you are. I am very sure that many children are born into non-ideal situations. But my point is, you cannot just kill it to fix the problem. No matter how you put it, no matter for what reason, you are still killing an innocent human being.

 

 

 

It's not developed up to a certain stage. That stage is commonly refereed to birth. While I think killing a baby a few weeks before that is wrong, its far off the abortion range.

 

 

 

And are all you going to do is cite specifics until Page 485 of this thread?

 

 

 

It's developing. Just as we all do, every day. And yes, I will quote specifics, rather then posting vague ideas.

 

 

 

You think killing a baby is wrong a few weeks before abortion. Basically you are putting a condition on life. Scientists have proven that life begins at conception, at the beginning.

 

 

 

In life, there is the beginning, and the end. There is no middle ground.

 

 

 

What happens if we use the "middle ground" philosophy?

 

 

 

A baby - you can kill it until it emerges into the world.

 

A child - you can beat it until it does what you want.

 

An innocent person - you can rob them untill you get caught.

 

 

 

There are countless examples. You cannot put a condition on small things such as these, much less on the life of a human being.

 

Ultimately, yes. I am putting a condition on life. We can play god, I think enough evolution has occurred for us to be able to do that...in a way.

 

 

 

Until somebody else says it in a better form, all I can say is going to be a repeat of the last several posts.

Ultimately, yes. I am putting a condition on life. We can play god, I think enough evolution has occurred for us to be able to do that...in a way.

 

 

 

Until somebody else says it in a better form, all I can say is going to be a repeat of the last several posts.

 

 

 

That is against human nature. I'll point it back at you -

 

 

 

Lets look at some examples where conditions were put on life -

 

 

 

Hitler - You are only alive if you don't have jewish background.

 

Racists, white supremacists - you are only alive if you are white.

 

 

 

I find it a little strange that people advocate so hard for equal rights for women, children, the elderly, people of different races, but when it comes to the most vulnerable among us, all of a sudden, we aren't so equal after all.

 

Ultimately, yes. I am putting a condition on life. We can play god, I think enough evolution has occurred for us to be able to do that...in a way.

 

 

 

Until somebody else says it in a better form, all I can say is going to be a repeat of the last several posts.

 

 

 

It's a western ideal that life is the most sacred thing in the world. The people who don't believe in that we call radicals - they were just bombing the [cabbage] out of Israel a couple of days ago.

 

 

 

There are no conditions of human life. It is sacred, and anything sacred is worth protecting.

 

 

 

Putting conditions on life is exactly what Hitler did to Jews in the 1930's and '40's. "They are humans, but they are also Jews [fetus'] and are therefore expendable whenever I wish in order to make my life better."

 

 

 

It makes me sick to think that people like you are the people who intend to lead our country for the next 4 years.

 

It's a western ideal that life is the most sacred thing in the world. The people who don't believe in that we call radicals - they were just bombing the [cabbage] out of Israel a couple of days ago.

 

 

 

There are no conditions of human life. It is sacred, and anything sacred is worth protecting.

 

 

 

Putting conditions on life is exactly what Hitler did to Jews in the 1930's and '40's. "They are humans, but they are also Jews [fetus'] and are therefore expendable whenever I wish in order to make my life better."

 

 

 

You make me sick.

 

 

 

I agree completely. Another way of stating my post.

Yeah, but you beat me to it.

 

 

 

When I hit submit and it was like, 'Read this post, it might change your decision (which I ignored)' I saw the Hitler comparison and I laughed out loud.

 

 

 

Great minds think alike?

Yeah, but you beat me to it.

 

 

 

When I hit submit and it was like, 'Read this post, it might change your decision (which I ignored)' I saw the Hitler comparison and I laughed out loud.

 

 

 

Great minds think alike?

 

 

 

Indeed ;) Probably should stop spamming now though -.-

Comparing abortions to the Holocaust, have you guys lost all sense of proportion?

What about the mother? If she doesn't want the child, or is incapable (for whatever reason) of raising it, then her life will most likely be messed up. Maybe even ruined. Adoption is questionable, I don't know too much about it. But then there still is the pain of childbirth, as well as those cases in which the mother literally risks her life to give birth.

 

The thing with the Hitler analogy is that Hitler could have lived with the Jews. The mother may not be able to live with the baby.

 

(So if the mother is perfectly capable of raising the child - As in her life is not as risk, she has the money to do so, and the time to do so, I would be against any abortion.)

Comparing abortions to the Holocaust, have you guys lost all sense of proportion?

 

 

 

Apparantly.

 

 

 

No, I'm comparing the ideals that Hitler had against the Jews. The only real difference between me and a fetus is that the fetus isn't fully developed yet.

 

 

 

As for Penguingeek, the mother can always 'live' with the baby. This is America, for God's sake. I don't think that any honest person has died of poverty or anything like that in America; our welfare system is far too good, and yes, adoption would definitely be a very liable option for those who cannot carry on with a child.

 

 

 

As for the process itself, eh, with C-sections and all that junk, you won't die in childbirth. And you know, with the whole 'karma' thing, I'd say that if you were considering an abortion to get rid of the unwanted baby, that probably means you had some questionable sex, and the process of birth might actually open your eyes the sacredness of the act of sexual intercourse.

agreed, but Im annoyed at people saying they dont like churches having power and they church should have to keep its hospitals open.

 

 

 

The church SHOULD have to keep their hospitals open. It says in the bible that they need to care for the sick, how the hell is taking away the hospital caring for the sick? hypocritical religious people piss me right off. "Oh we don't agree with that law so we're going to make the entire nation suffer for it." Sorry but if your problem is with the government, take it up with the government. Don't [bleep]ing take it out on the people, selfish [puncture]s.

What about the mother? If she doesn't want the child, or is incapable (for whatever reason) of raising it, then her life will most likely be messed up. Maybe even ruined. Adoption is questionable, I don't know too much about it. But then there still is the pain of childbirth, as well as those cases in which the mother literally risks her life to give birth.

 

The thing with the Hitler analogy is that Hitler could have lived with the Jews. The mother may not be able to live with the baby.

 

(So if the mother is perfectly capable of raising the child - As in her life is not as risk, she has the money to do so, and the time to do so, I would be against any abortion.)

 

 

 

If the mother's life is actually at risk, abortion is justified. I will use as an example the case of a mother, who, giving birth to a child will die from bleeding or whatever, I don't remember the specifics. In this case, the abortion of the baby is the result of a successfull surgery to save the life of the mother.

 

 

 

As for the mother's life being ruined, as I state before, I compeltely agree. Fault or not, many mothers will be severely handicapped by having to take care of a child. I have never disagreed with that. My problem is the solution. You CANNOT fix the problem by murder. You cannot. No matter how bad it is, you cannot justify the murder of an innocent human being.

 

 

 

Comparing abortions to the Holocaust, have you guys lost all sense of proportion?

 

 

 

Abortion is murder of innocent people, so was the holocaust. Pretty good grounds for a comparison I think.

 

 

 

agreed, but Im annoyed at people saying they dont like churches having power and they church should have to keep its hospitals open.

 

 

 

The church SHOULD have to keep their hospitals open. It says in the bible that they need to care for the sick, how the hell is taking away the hospital caring for the sick? hypocritical religious people piss me right off. "Oh we don't agree with that law so we're going to make the entire nation suffer for it." Sorry but if your problem is with the government, take it up with the government. Don't [bleep] take it out on the people, selfish [puncture]s.

 

 

 

You miss the reason that the church is threatening to close their hospitals. They beleive abortion is murder, and as such are willing to do anything to stop murder.

 

 

 

You may say "oh they won't have to perform abortions" but that is completely false. They can be sued for malpractice, and, to be honest, why would they risk that?

 

 

 

You may say they can't be sued for malpractice. Abortion is legal in Canada, and yes, doctors refusing to perform abortions have been sued(successfully) for malpractice.

 

 

 

All they are doing is taking the necessary steps to insure that they play no part in the murder of innocent human beings.

 

 

 

Comparing abortions to the Holocaust, have you guys lost all sense of proportion?

 

 

 

Abortion is murder of innocent people, so was the holocaust. Pretty good grounds for a comparison I think

 

 

 

That is your opinion not cold hard fact. I think you're a nutter for comparing the Holocaust to abortions but that doesn't make it so.

 

 

 

Quite frankly I think this has went from a reasonable well thought out discussion into a ridiculous hysterical nightmare thread.

 

 

 

Comparing abortions to the Holocaust, have you guys lost all sense of proportion?

 

 

 

Abortion is murder of innocent people, so was the holocaust. Pretty good grounds for a comparison I think

 

 

 

That is your opinion not cold hard fact. I think you're a nutter for comparing the Holocaust to abortions but that doesn't make it so.

 

 

 

Quite frankly I think this has went from a reasonable well thought out discussion into a ridiculous hysterical nightmare thread.

 

 

 

Do you agree that the holocaust was murder of innocents? I hope so, if you are a holocaust denier I don't see any point in arguing with you.

 

 

 

Do you agree that children are innocent? I hope so. Do you agree that a child dies when an abortion is performed? I think so.

 

 

 

What you don't agree with is a fetus being human. You say it isn't cold hard fact, but it really is. Scientists have proven, time and time again, that the only reasonable time to say somethign is alive is at it's conception.

 

As for Penguingeek, the mother can always 'live' with the baby.

 

If a mother has barely enough money to support herself, how do you expect her to support a baby?

 

 

 

This is America, for God's sake. I don't think that any honest person has died of poverty or anything like that in America; our welfare system is far too good

 

I've assumed we've just been debating abortion in general. And once again, if a mother can barely support herself, she can't support a baby.

 

adoption would definitely be a very liable option for those who cannot carry on with a child.

 

Life at an adoption center isn't fun and games. Like I said, I don't know much about it, but I'd imagine the conditions are okay, but by no means great. And I tried doing some quick research, apparently about 25% of children put up for adoption are never adopted. You could argue that it's better than being dead, which it may very well be. I dunno.

 

 

 

As for the process itself, eh, with C-sections and all that junk, you won't die in childbirth.

 

Alright then.

 

And you know, with the whole 'karma' thing, I'd say that if you were considering an abortion to get rid of the unwanted baby, that probably means you had some questionable sex, and the process of birth might actually open your eyes the sacredness of the act of sexual intercourse.

 

I kind of agree with you there. At a personal level, at least. Some people aren't bound by religious ideals though, so it doesn't matter one bit to them. If they want to have "unholy" sex, you can't stop them. And if you want to punish them for it, well, I refer you to the "Religious Politics" thread. :|

 

 

 

@Y_Guy...Good. At least we agree on something. ;) (And I feel like saying it again, I know next to nothing about the adoption process, but I view it as a viable alternative to abortion)

There is no scientific consensus regarding the point in which a foetus is alive, there are scientists who claim it is as early as conception (not many I'd like to stress) where as there are others who put that time at much later in the pregnancy (some still argue that it isn't alive until it is delivered).

 

 

 

Now the Holocaust was the systematic attempt to erase an entire race of people from the planet for no other reason other than they were a historical scapegoat. An abortion is a medical procedure that is most often carried out in the best interests of the Mother and in many cases the best interests of the child. A procedure that is often carried in cases of rape and often where the mother is at great risk.

 

 

 

To compare the two is such a simplistic manner is hysterical and nonsensical. I don't mind people being anti-abortion - beleive what you want - but that comparison is ridiculous.

There is no scientific consensus regarding the point in which a foetus is alive, there are scientists who claim it is as early as conception (not many I'd like to stress) where as there are others who put that time at much later in the pregnancy (some still argue that it isn't alive until it is delivered).

 

 

 

Of course there is no 100% consensus, but I have read articles, and studies, and the majority of scientists beleive life beings at conception. It doesn't even deal with mammals alone; plants are also seen the same way. As soon as the seed is fertilized, it begins to grow.

 

 

 

http://ankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchi ... 3W0805.pdf

 

 

 

http://www.epm.org/artman2/publish/prol ... tion.shtml

 

 

 

 

Now the Holocaust was the systematic attempt to erase an entire race of people from the planet for no other reason other than they were a historical scapegoat. An abortion is a medical procedure that is most often carried out in the best interests of the Mother and in many cases the best interests of the child. A procedure that is often carried in cases of rape and often where the mother is at great risk.

 

 

 

To compare the two is such a simplistic manner is hysterical and nonsensical. I don't mind people being anti-abortion - beleive what you want - but that comparison is ridiculous.

 

 

 

You are taking a different part of the holocaust and arguing that. I never said the holocaust was the same as abortion, but some things were similar.

 

 

 

Hitler belived the extermination of the jews was a medical procedure(gas chambers) and it would be in the best interests of him and his entire country.

 

 

 

My point is simple. There is a world of difference between the holocaust and abortion, but the very basic idea is the same.

 

 

 

Hitler didn't like the jews, they inconvenienced him. So he killed them, and they didn't deserve to die.

 

 

 

People don't like their babies, they are an inconvenience. So, they kill them, they don't deserve to die.

 

 

 

At the very basic level, the ideals are still the same.