Different kinds of mage weapons

[Sir_Kurity]

Cost is cheap for training (high alchs, teletabs), and in comparison to some of the more expensive weapons (full dharoks, whips, godswords) Its a cheaper option in PVP as well.

 

 

 

The only problem i see is that its very inefficient for boss hunting, and most forms of player verses monster (with obvious exceptions such as bursting rock lobs)

 

 

 

No, shut up, Ags is NOT a one time payment, you are liable to get smited, and aside from that, you can also still lose your armor you are pking in, so yes, mage is comparatively cheap.

[compfreak847]

The cost is still high for the power you can't disagree about that. I'm not saying magic is weak, but its cost is incredible.

 

 

 

Yes, magic owns if you team (only if your team is good, though) as the meleers can protect you.

 

FTP mage is very cheap, and PTP mage does NOT cost much for a high level player. Compare it to the value of high level melee items which are rapidly dropping - not to mention the loss in PVP; I go through rune sets like water.

[quelmotz]

Cost is cheap for training (high alchs, teletabs), and in comparison to some of the more expensive weapons (full dharoks, whips, godswords) Its a cheaper option in PVP as well.

 

 

 

The only problem i see is that its very inefficient for boss hunting, and most forms of player verses monster (with obvious exceptions such as bursting rock lobs)

 

 

 

No, shut up, Ags is NOT a one time payment, you are liable to get smited, and aside from that, you can also still lose your armor you are pking in, so yes, mage is comparatively cheap.

 

 

 

Too bad if you get smited then. You shouldn't kill people with smite on anyway with such a valuable item.

[compfreak847]

 

Too bad if you get smited then. You shouldn't kill people with smite on anyway with such a valuable item.

 

Yes, it is too bad if you get smited. I kind of think that was his point...

 

 

 

Your really gonna limit the pool of available PKers with no smite. And you can still get KOed or have prayer run out - I've dropped people with claws\dh before with a 2 hit rush out of the blue that kills them before they even turn on protect item.

[Sir_Kurity]

If your one of those overprotective people (like me) That keeps protect item on ALL the time, that won't work =D.

[Asmodeous4]

How about orbs are held in shield slot, they give a moderate magic offense and defense boost, but negative against melee, seeing as if it gets hit by a massive hammer it may shatter etc. To make up for this maybe somethign like Mind Orbs, Body Orbs, Chaos Orbs, Death Orbs, Blood Orbs and Soul Orbs.

 

Each give a 15% chance fo supplying the said rune, they can be crafted at RC Altars if you have the RC Level to make the corresponding rune. The uncharged orbs are dropped by the Shades in the SoS (yeah random, they give low exp so no massive exp gains there).

 

EDIT: Soul Orbs are made randomly at the ZMI, so if you bring an inventory of Uncharged Orbs, you may get all Minds, all Bodies or half Minds, half Bloods. Soul Orbs are 1/50 chance of crafting at ZMI.

[quelmotz]

How about orbs are held in shield slot, they give a moderate magic offense and defense boost, but negative against melee, seeing as if it gets hit by a massive hammer it may shatter etc. To make up for this maybe somethign like Mind Orbs, Body Orbs, Chaos Orbs, Death Orbs, Blood Orbs and Soul Orbs.

 

Each give a 15% chance fo supplying the said rune, they can be crafted at RC Altars if you have the RC Level to make the corresponding rune. The uncharged orbs are dropped by the Shades in the SoS (yeah random, they give low exp so no massive exp gains there).

 

EDIT: Soul Orbs are made randomly at the ZMI, so if you bring an inventory of Uncharged Orbs, you may get all Minds, all Bodies or half Minds, half Bloods. Soul Orbs are 1/50 chance of crafting at ZMI.

 

 

 

Nice idea, but I would still want a mage item that gives reasonable melee defence. And I don't think the soul orb needs to be created yet, maybe just wait until the soul altar comes out.

[llamster]

 

Magic, more than anything, needs a way to reduce the cost of spells. Both Ranged and Melee are viable for use in PvE combat, but magic is terrible because of the cost. Perhaps a new staff or ring that provides steep defensive penalties but reduces the rune cost of spells by 1/2?

 

The problem is that mage is so incredibly overpowered at the moment. The only thing keeping it from completely taking over PVP is the cost. As it is, rich players are almost unstoppable with mage. They would need to nerf the power if they reduced the cost - it's the only thing keeping it balanced at the moment.

 

 

 

The spells most often used in PvE are fire wave, slayer dart, fire bolt, and claws. PvP magic is mostly Ancients. So obviously the PvE spells should be cheaper but not Ancients.

[Zaaps1]

 

Magic, more than anything, needs a way to reduce the cost of spells. Both Ranged and Melee are viable for use in PvE combat, but magic is terrible because of the cost. Perhaps a new staff or ring that provides steep defensive penalties but reduces the rune cost of spells by 1/2?

 

The problem is that mage is so incredibly overpowered at the moment. The only thing keeping it from completely taking over PVP is the cost. As it is, rich players are almost unstoppable with mage. They would need to nerf the power if they reduced the cost - it's the only thing keeping it balanced at the moment.

 

 

 

The spells most often used in PvE are fire wave, slayer dart, fire bolt, and claws. PvP magic is mostly Ancients. So obviously the PvE spells should be cheaper but not Ancients.

 

 

 

Also add Vengeance, ice spells (on occasion), and fire blast (f2p)

[Sir_Kurity]

Melee defense is freezing.

 

 

 

Unless you want to remove freezing and have normal spells with no special effects and stronger mage armor? No, didn't think so.

[Zaaps1]

Melee defense is freezing.

 

 

 

Unless you want to remove freezing and have normal spells with no special effects and stronger mage armor? No, didn't think so.

 

 

 

I agree. Farcasting is mage's defense. I think that Mage could use a small boost, but isn't really needed.

[compfreak847]

 

 

 

I agree. Farcasting is mage's defense. I think that Mage could use a small boost, but isn't really needed.

 

What a joke. Ever tried fighting melee 1 v 1 with a mage? I do it all the time in clan wars. Miasmic barrage, two shadow barrages, a smoke barrage, and then autocasted blood barrage. I heal more then they hit in ANY gear. Oh, and did I mention I'm fighting level 130+s, several dozen combat levels higher then my mage\defence\prayer?

 

 

 

Farcasting is just another example of how laughably overpowered mage is. If one combat style can take down another 30 levels higher then it without even utilizing most of its advantages while out-hitting the higher level at least 3 to 1, it's a sign of overpoweredness. To put it into comparison, it's a level 60 pure with completely decimating a maxed tank ranger while using his fist instead of a weapon. Really, certain people around here need to think about casting a few spells before deriding them.

[sees_all1]

Miasmic barrage, two shadow barrages, a smoke barrage, and then autocasted blood barrage.

 

Most people can't afford 760k for a staff that only lasts 1 hour, or pay upwards of 2.3k per cast (call it 1+mil/hour of combat).

 

As much as P2P mage owns, its cost of use is what hinders most people from using it.

[compfreak847]

 

Most people can't afford 760k for a staff that only lasts 1 hour, or pay upwards of 2.3k per cast (call it 1+mil/hour of combat).

 

As much as P2P mage owns, its cost of use is what hinders most people from using it.

 

Could you do me a favor and PLEASE recall the half-dozen times I've mentioned this staff? Guess what: You don't have to use the spell the entire time! I cast the spell once, then switch to ancient staff. Oh, and last I checked (722.1/3600) X 1.5 = 300 GP. Three hundred GP. Ya know, if you can't afford 300 GP per fight, you probably shouldn't be spending 3k per cast on blood barrage. Any other argument I've already covered 2 months ago in your very first thread? =D>

[sees_all1]

you probably shouldn't be spending 3k per cast on blood barrage.

 

Thank you for proving my point. Magic is expensive, you know this and you're not denying it.

[compfreak847]

 

Thank you for proving my point. Magic is expensive, you know this and you're not denying it.

 

How many pages did it take you to realize this? It's nice to know you've finally read a post in the past few months. I'm glad you now know the cost of blood barrage. Now, as I said a few months ago, it is expensive as a balance against its insanely overpowered spells. Remove the cost, and it's even more overpowered.

 

 

 

You know, the farther we take this the more I feel as if I'm arguing with a blind man about a color scheme. It would *probably* be best if you thought about trying something before making long-winded rants about it. I mean, really? How do you completely overlook the cost per hour of Zuriel staff? It's like pretending that a whip costs 40m and then using that in an argument against melee :-#

[sees_all1]

 

How many pages did it take you to realize this? It's nice to know you've finally read a post in the past few months. I'm glad you now know the cost of blood barrage. Now, as I said a few months ago, it is expensive as a balance against its insanely overpowered spells. Remove the cost, and it's even more overpowered.

 

 

 

You know, the farther we take this the more I feel as if I'm arguing with a blind man about a color scheme. It would *probably* be best if you thought about trying something before making long-winded rants about it. I mean, really? How do you completely overlook the cost per hour of Zuriel staff? It's like pretending that a whip costs 40m and then using that in an argument against melee :-#

 

I put in 2 cents, you automatically flame me, and then basically agree with me. Sorry if I didn't read pages 2/3, I've read the OP and I see you disagreeing with one of your standard "Mage is too powerful..." blah blah blah.

 

 

 

So, from now on do you want me to call you out every time you don't thoroughly read something? It won't be too difficult, I can think of about 3 instances off the top of my head, and if I dig a little deeper I could list them all right here and make them highly visable. Don't be a hypocrite.

 

 

 

You have this attitude that everyone is automagically wrong just because they disagree with you, no matter how small the difference of opinion, and even if they mostly agree with you they're still wrong. And every time you challenge us to "back it up" with fact, when you reference your "thousands of hours of combat experience" - you haven't given us proof of anything, you posting something doesn't make it right.

 

 

 

When you say "magic is overpowered, it doesn't need any upgrades" - what are you referencing? The fact that at 99 magic you can own virtually anyone, when you use a prescribed set of spells in an exact manner? Or is it the fact that at level 60 you can start hitting 30's, but only if you're a member, and only if you're using arena spells?

 

 

 

Back to the OP - What's wrong with having a little variety in a combat style?

 

The OP has a point, although the things he says to back it up aren't very intelligent.

 

Melee has: 4 godswords, the whip, the dd, the scimitar, dharok's, etc, and each has a special ability.

 

Range has: rune crossbows, dark bow, crystal bow, cannon, etc. Dbow has a special.

 

Mage has: Staffs (elemental, battle, zuriel, etc.), wands. No "special" per se.

 

Could there be another magic weapon, that isn't stronger than what there currently is? Could it have a special attack, and not upset whatever balance there is?

 

 

 

Your complete argument is "No magic already is too powerful". Maybe at level 99, when you can accurately do the combo you described, and when you have 400 mil that you can toss around.

 

99% of the RS population doesn't have 99 magic, and even fewer don't have 400 mil. What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander - what I'm saying is just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone else.

 

 

 

Do you have any empathy at all? Can you put yourself in anyone else's shoes and understand their point of view? I haven't seen you do this, and when debating its crucial to see eye to eye with the other person instead of - "They're wrong, I'm going to prove them wrong." When you do this, you often miss the point they're trying to make, and instead you just get hung up on the stupid details.

[Zaaps1]

 

How many pages did it take you to realize this? It's nice to know you've finally read a post in the past few months. I'm glad you now know the cost of blood barrage. Now, as I said a few months ago, it is expensive as a balance against its insanely overpowered spells. Remove the cost, and it's even more overpowered.

 

 

 

You know, the farther we take this the more I feel as if I'm arguing with a blind man about a color scheme. It would *probably* be best if you thought about trying something before making long-winded rants about it. I mean, really? How do you completely overlook the cost per hour of Zuriel staff? It's like pretending that a whip costs 40m and then using that in an argument against melee :-#

 

I put in 2 cents, you automatically flame me, and then basically agree with me. Sorry if I didn't read pages 2/3, I've read the OP and I see you disagreeing with one of your standard "Mage is too powerful..." blah blah blah.

 

 

 

So, from now on do you want me to call you out every time you don't thoroughly read something? It won't be too difficult, I can think of about 3 instances off the top of my head, and if I dig a little deeper I could list them all right here and make them highly visable. Don't be a hypocrite.

 

 

 

You have this attitude that everyone is automagically wrong just because they disagree with you, no matter how small the difference of opinion, and even if they mostly agree with you they're still wrong. And every time you challenge us to "back it up" with fact, when you reference your "thousands of hours of combat experience" - you haven't given us proof of anything, you posting something doesn't make it right.

 

 

 

When you say "magic is overpowered, it doesn't need any upgrades" - what are you referencing? The fact that at 99 magic you can own virtually anyone, when you use a prescribed set of spells in an exact manner? Or is it the fact that at level 60 you can start hitting 30's, but only if you're a member, and only if you're using arena spells?

 

 

 

Back to the OP - What's wrong with having a little variety in a combat style?

 

The OP has a point, although the things he says to back it up aren't very intelligent.

 

Melee has: 4 godswords, the whip, the dd, the scimitar, dharok's, etc, and each has a special ability.

 

Range has: rune crossbows, dark bow, crystal bow, cannon, etc. Dbow has a special.

 

Mage has: Staffs (elemental, battle, zuriel, etc.), wands. No "special" per se.

 

Could there be another magic weapon, that isn't stronger than what there currently is? Could it have a special attack, and not upset whatever balance there is?

 

 

 

Your complete argument is "No magic already is too powerful". Maybe at level 99, when you can accurately do the combo you described, and when you have 400 mil that you can toss around.

 

99% of the RS population doesn't have 99 magic, and even fewer don't have 400 mil. What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander - what I'm saying is just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone else.

 

 

 

Do you have any empathy at all? Can you put yourself in anyone else's shoes and understand their point of view? I haven't seen you do this, and when debating its crucial to see eye to eye with the other person instead of - "They're wrong, I'm going to prove them wrong." When you do this, you often miss the point they're trying to make, and instead you just get hung up on the stupid details.

 

 

 

Well you really took it out there, so I'm not going to say anything and get involved.

 

 

 

But on-topic. The specials of magic, in my opinion, are the spells effects. Look at it this way, melee has special attacks and barrows, range has special attacks and bolts, magic has ancients and a whole bunch of useful spells such as entangle and teleblock.

 

 

 

What I feel, however, is that being a mage is a far riskier option. The only upperhand mage has on melee is farcasting. But once a SINGLE spell splashes, the mage is pretty much doomed. Also, the meleer can pop on karils without any melee attack negatives. So I'm relooking at my stance on this, and I'm changing it a little.

 

 

 

Before, I agreed that f2p mage needs an update. Now, here's what I think: Mage as a whole needs improvements to make sure that it isn't a 1-shot situation. While offensively, mage is as balanced as can be, defensively, mage is severely underpowered.

 

 

 

The old saying goes "a good offense is the best defense." That's what I apply to magic. But the thing is that the offense can so easily fail, that magic needs the defense.

 

 

 

Now how this will come about, I'm clueless. In my Reviving Smithing idea, I think I had a pretty good idea with the armor and weapons of the 3-classes. I didn't decide the armor defenses yet, but the melee defense should be much higher than what it is.

 

 

 

I think Jagex's logic goes: Since Mage robes are cloth, and last Sunday I cut through my cloth drapes with a fruit knife, then melee should cut through mage. So the easiest and most logical fix would be to introduce a mage armor made out of metal.

[compfreak847]

You know, your post would be a LOT more convincing if you had ever tried what you were talking about. Since you have a habit of completely ignoring my previous posts and tossing around arguments about me instead of my posts?

 

 

 

Issue 1: You. Yeah, this sounds stuipd, but your the one ranting about it. For starters, your FTP. Next, you have level 1 theving, so don't try and pull the 'I used to be PTP' argument. Third, you have level 78 magic. Repeat after me: I have never casted a single ancient magicks spell in my life. Your formulating detailed arguments about hitting methods and various tactics used by high level PTP mages. Your arguing about the effectiveness of barrage spells that your millions of XP and $5 away from trying. Just answer me this: how do you know PTP mage is underpowered? Once you answer that, we can resolve a few things.

 

 

 

Issue 2: Cost, Part 1. You like to talk about me tossing around 400m. Since your FTP, I'll explain a few things about member that you missed the memo about. A week and a half ago my bank value was, oh, about 4 and a half million. Right now it's around 120m and rising fast, and I really don't play or try to earn money much. It is very, very easy to make money in PTP.

 

 

 

Issue 3: Cost, Part 2. Magic is not the expensive, all consuming skill you seem to belive it is. I'm going to use bandos soloing as an example, but I could just as easily use DKS, Avansies, Team GWD, or any of the other half-dozen ways PTPers can use to make money. Bandos soloing isn't very risky, just eat when your HP drops 20 below your max, and it's cheap to do with basic equipment and little value being risked. Yet it rakes in over 2,000,000 GP per hour. I know it's difficult for you to understand at FTP, where 100k\h is considered 'good', but it's the facts. Now, let's compare it to magic. The average blood barrage spell is going to cost 2.55k, and deal 13 damage with missing factored in. For a 90 HP player, it's going to take 7 casts to take down his initial HP - a cost of 18k for a non-food kill. Now, let's add food. Assume sharks, going with 20 for space for prayer pots + teles + super sets. That's 20 X 20 = 400 HP, 31 casts of blood barrage, 79k. Add that to the first 18k cost, and we get a total of under 100k for a complete kill with all food eaten, with the most expensive spell. How long is that going to take to earn? Well, at 2m per hour, that's a grand total of 3 minutes to earn the money for a COMPLETE PK, assuming the PKed doesn't tele. Do you know how long it takes to find a good fight far away from a PK hotspot, much less then 2.5 minute fighting time? A maxed tank is going to be spending much, much more time PKing then earning money for runes with mage PKing, and therefore, cost is essentially irrelevant.

 

 

 

Issue 4. Levels, Part 1. You seem to be suffering from the hallucination that 100 combat is an impossibly high goal for a member to obtain. I'll go into more on that later, but first I'll dissolve the myth of lower levels. Please do me a favor and look at this page: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_magicks. Scroll down to the spell book. Do you notice something unusual? Yeah, I did too. All of the spells in the ancient magicks spell book scale down in every way - level is always proportionate to combat, so the argument that you have to be 99 mage to use my techniques is laughably absurd

 

 

 

Issue 5. Levels, Part 2. Now, onto the XP myth. Miasmic blitz has the same effect as barrage, so for the lowest level possible we top out at Blood Barrage, level 92, roughly 6,500,000 XP. Now, ice bursting rock lobsters is the most efficient source of charms. Summoning is an integral part of RS, and any type of player would find it invaluable to training. Now that its effect on combat levels in PVP combat level has been removed, any type of PKer will also find this skill unbelievably handy. Given that bursting lobsters for charms is the most efficient method of obtaining charms, efficiency calculations would render the loss sustained positive - your earning money in the form of time by using it over other combat methods. For the sake of simplicity, we'll leave it at free. That leaves us with one thing - 170k mage XP\h, FREE. In other words, training to the mage level required for complete use of the tactics I described requires 38 hours of training. 38 hours. Do you know how long it takes to earn ONE of the all-powerful godswords you've described? The best methods place the estimate around 32-34 hours, and as an item, it can be lost easily. In other words, it requires roughly the same amount of work to obtain one of your godswords as it does to obtain my 'impossibly high' magic level.

 

 

 

 

 

Now, in response to your original post. What are you planning on for a suggestion? We've already established that magic is vastly overpowered, and you either refuse to or cannot come up with a reasonable rebuttal. Yet you are completely refusing to allow it to be nerfed. That leaves two alternatives:

 

 

 

#1: Throw in a staff or spell BETTER then the current ones. This will further imbalance magic spells, further wreck the combat system, and make mages like me decimate other combat styles more completely.

 

 

 

#2: Throw in a staff or spell WORSE then the current ones. No one uses it. The end. Period.

 

 

 

Don't try to use the argument of adding a new staff that's 'only useful in certain situations' or 'certain times' or 'with a special attack that does blah blah blah'. It boils down to the two options I mentioned, no matter how limited it is. It's either superior to current equipment, further imbalancing magic, or it is inferior and is never touched. Period.

 

 

 

Now, since you seem to have a hard time remembering to respond to the points in my post, I've nicely bolded them for you. I'm going to list them here for your convenience to help you remember to respond to them.

 

 

 

• Issue 1, You: How do you know PTP mage is underpowered?
   
  Issue 2, Cost: Part 1: It is very, very easy to make money in PTP.
   
  Issue 3, Cost: Part 2: A maxed tank is going to be spending much, much more time PKing then earning money for runes with mage PKing, and therefore, cost is essentially irrelevant.
   
  Issue 4, Levels: Part 1: All of the spells in the ancient magicks spell book scale down in every way - level is always proportionate to combat, so the argument that you have to be 99 mage to use my techniques is laughably absurd.
   
  Issue 4, Levels: Part 2: It requires roughly the same amount of work to obtain one of your godswords as it does to obtain my 'impossibly high' magic level.
   
  

 

There you go. Respond to each of those issues. And remember, don't just respond to the particular sentence I posted - I expect a point by point argument against each of my proofs behind the statements. They are summarys, not arguments in and of themselves.

 

 

 

I'm interested to hear your response. I'm sure it'll raise a whole new set of interesting and arguable points. Just don't pull a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem/.

[sees_all1]

[hide=your issues, sir]

 

• Issue 1, You: How do you know PTP mage is underpowered?
   
  Issue 2, Cost: Part 1: It is very, very easy to make money in PTP.
   
  Issue 3, Cost: Part 2: A maxed tank is going to be spending much, much more time PKing then earning money for runes with mage PKing, and therefore, cost is essentially irrelevant.
   
  Issue 4, Levels: Part 1: All of the spells in the ancient magicks spell book scale down in every way - level is always proportionate to combat, so the argument that you have to be 99 mage to use my techniques is laughably absurd.
   
  Issue 4, Levels: Part 2: It requires roughly the same amount of work to obtain one of your godswords as it does to obtain my 'impossibly high' magic level.
   
  

 

Issue 1 - I haven't recently made the claim that "PTP mage is underpowered" Show me, where in the past month, that I have said "PTP mage is underpowered". Maybe, just maybe, you could be referring to my "DoubleCast" idea, but that was before the contemporary spellbook, my better solution to F2P magic.

 

 

 

Issue 2 - That's great. I'm happy for you, and all you PTPers. So everyone in PTP is exactly like you, and can get 120M out of 4m in 10, 11 days.

 

My rebuttal: Not everyone is maxed in combat, not everyone can use the methods you use simply because combat isn't an option for them as a money maker. Not everyone knows all the different money maker ways for PTP, it's why there's a help and advice forum that's full of, "How do i make a quik 10m?" So cost is an issue for the average joezez_rocks

 

 

 

Issue 3 - So how about you make the approximation that all weapons, runes, and arrows are free. How about you make the approximation that you will always average 1/2 your max hit, when you hit. How about you make the approximation that you will always hit 100% of the time with magic, 75% of the time with range, 50% of the time with melee. When I've made certain approximations like this in the past, you told me "Quit pulling numbers out of your behind".

 

 

 

Issue 4 - All the levels may scale down, but the max hits don't scale the same way for both combat styles. Consider someone with 70 strength, 106 str bonus (a whip, amulet of strength, rune defender and dragon gloves.) Their respective max hit is 29 (with ultimate strength and super strength potion), and they hit it as fast as anything else. Say they're a pure, level 70. Is the equivalent level 70 in mage going to take them down?

 

If the equivalent level 70 was a pure mage and had 95 magic, maybe. What if they splashed once on their freezing spell?

 

A few flicks of that whip, and they'd be done for. What if our melee level 70 had 95 magic too, so they had great magic defense? What if they used 4 dds? What if, What if, What if? these are irrelevant, because there are too many setups to account for in any given scenario, there are too many possibilities to make a simple statement "magic owns PTP, always, everywhere, no matter what, period".

 

 

 

Issue 4, part 2 - If it is so easy to get that much magic experience, how come all members don't have 99 mage? By your logic, it only takes about 60 hours to train mage up to 99, why doesn't everyone do it? Call it, six weeks at two hours a day, 5 days a week. Easy, right? Sign me up. There is some factor that is missing that I don't know, and you're not including.

 

A large majority of RS players enjoy combat, whether its melee, range or mage. If it is soooo easy to make all that GP, and its soooo easy to get 99 mage, why not everyone?

 

 

 

But I don't even care about the 4 issues you've outlined, its not that relevant to this particular thread.[/hide]

 

 

 

#1: Throw in a staff or spell BETTER then the current ones. This will further imbalance magic spells, further wreck the combat system, and make mages like me decimate other combat styles more completely.

 

 

 

#2: Throw in a staff or spell WORSE then the current ones. No one uses it. The end. Period.

 

 

 

Don't try to use the argument of adding a new staff that's 'only useful in certain situations' or 'certain times' or 'with a special attack that does blah blah blah'. It boils down to the two options I mentioned, no matter how limited it is. It's either superior to current equipment, further imbalancing magic, or it is inferior and is never touched. Period.

 

Lets see, I know. Dragon Claws.

 

You've argued it yourself here - "PTP melee has two weapons - whip for non spec, dragon claws for spec."

 

So, say there's another staff that is guaranteed to hit its 1.5x it's maximum when you use its special, but only has +10 magic bonus. Would you use it for anything other than it's special?

 

Did that boil down to one of your two situations?

 

 

 

Focusing on non-combat situations:

 

What about a staff that has a particularly good bonus on slayer monsters, and makes slayer give an overall 30% faster experience?

 

Oh, and it doesn't give any stat bonuses, just the added slayer xp. Will people use it? Does it further off balance the combat triangle?

 

How about a recent example, the Omni-staff that came out with GOP. Is it ever used for combat? No. Is it worthless? No, it allows you to wield all the tiara's into one, and gives you a free head space for your costume.

 

 

 

I could brainstorm many more examples of things that don't fit into your two categories, but I'm not going to do it because its a waste of time. The whole idea behind a "Combat Triangle" is that Paper>rock>scissors>paper, and that no one style should stand out above the others.

 

 

 

I for one, would appreciate a variety of magical implements, be it wands, orbs, rings or rabbits. No, they might not be as good as Zuriel's staff, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will never be used.

[compfreak847]

Issue 1: Then why are you suggesting new weapons without a nerf? If your agreeing that magic is overpowered, why are you helping it become more so? That wasn't really the point I was arguing, though. I'll change it into another one. How do you know anything at all about high level magic?

 

 

 

Issue 2: Really. You know, we happen to be arguing about someone who ALREADY has the stats for bandos, so that argument sort of flies out the proverbial window. That being said, I'm not sure how many high levels I know that are too stuipd to be aware of the existence of GWD. I know quite a few FTPers like that, but no PTPers. Somehow I'm making a connection.

 

 

 

Issue 3: Actually, I included everything. I suggest you read my post over a few times. I'd rely on your numbers for them but.. your FTP, you don't have the quests done, and you don't have the magic level. Never mind.

 

 

 

Issue 4: The mage would win, EASILY. You are NOT getting this. My level 99 mage will take out a maxed player EASILY. Did you accidentally skip over that part? A 70-70 pure is a joke. Mage ALWAYS wins. Then again, how would you know?

 

 

 

Issue 5: So your saying "I can't logically argue against you, but... Not everyone in RS has 99 mage! Therefore, it is impossible for anyone to get 99! Never mind that almost 30,000 people have maxed it out! Here's an idea. Counter the method, and don't try to pull arguments about the 'average RS player'. How easy is it going to be for your 'average joe' to get an AGS? Oh wait, about as easy as 99 mage. For that matter, why isn't everyone, including you, maxed melee?

 

 

 

 

You've argued it yourself here - "PTP melee has two weapons - whip for non spec, dragon claws for spec."

 

So, say there's another staff that is guaranteed to hit its 1.5x it's maximum when you use its special, but only has +10 magic bonus. Would you use it for anything other than it's special?

 

Did that boil down to one of your two situations?

 

Yep. Vastly overpowered special (I get 78 damage, basically guaranteed, from a distance? Yes, plz!) makes this even more overpowered, and I switch right back to my ancient staff once my combo is casted. Really, I'd suggest working on a better example.

 

 

 

 

Focusing on non-combat situations:

 

What about a staff that has a particularly good bonus on slayer monsters, and makes slayer give an overall 30% faster experience?

 

Oh, and it doesn't give any stat bonuses, just the added slayer xp. Will people use it? Does it further off balance the combat triangle?

 

How about a recent example, the Omni-staff that came out with GOP. Is it ever used for combat? No. Is it worthless? No, it allows you to wield all the tiara's into one, and gives you a free head space for your costume.

 

Your quite welcome to propose all the non-PVP you want, I really couldn't care less about what you suggest on them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I could brainstorm many more examples of things that don't fit into your two categories, but I'm not going to do it because its a waste of time. The whole idea behind a "Combat Triangle" is that Paper>rock>scissors>paper, and that no one style should stand out above the others.

 

Alright. Get back to me when you have one of those examples.

 

 

 

 

I for one, would appreciate a variety of magical implements, be it wands, orbs, rings or rabbits. No, they might not be as good as Zuriel's staff, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will never be used.

 

How many mith javelins do you use in a day? Yeah, that's my point.

[sees_all1]

 

Issue 4: The mage would win, EASILY. You are NOT getting this. My level 99 mage will take out a maxed player EASILY. Did you accidentally skip over that part? A 70-70 pure is a joke. Mage ALWAYS wins. Then again, how would you know?

 

 

 

I don't know, something I've read somewhere.

 

 

 

A ranger vs. a meleer of the same combat will DESTROY the meleer. Range is MASSIVLY overpowered; I've defeated maxed combat players (with an equivalent of 1.5x the offensive combat level) with 99 range. A skilled ranger is also able to take down a mage easily, though it is easier for them to kill a meleer. Ever since the release of crossbows Rangers have had a huge advantage over the combat triangle, being 3 times as fast to train as melee yet easily defeating it - even though melee is supposed to beat them!

 

 

 

Maybe its "A skilled ranger is also able to take down a mage easily" or "Rangers have had a huge advantage over the combat triangle" You know... the combat triangle, with Mage, Melee and Range?

 

 

 

Do you have a problem arguing that high level mage combos are over powered, the darkbow spec is overpowered, and that the dclaw spec is over powered -- all in different forums at different times? Tell me, is hitting 60 with rune crossbows over powered? Or a 48/48 spec with a dark bow? How about a few DDS for 100+ damage, or 2 dclaw specs for 100+ damage?

 

Are those all overpowered?

 

I don't like arguing things I'm not familiar with, in case you haven't realized this by now. It takes more time and effort for me to look up these numbers than I care for.

 

Its why I'm so open to suggestions in my Contemporary Spellbook idea, especially when it comes to members content.

 

 

 

Here's the other thing. Everything you've talked about has been in your perfect world, 1v1 situation with no PJers. Add in the PJer element, and mage gets weaker and weaker.

 

 

 

So, what if they introduced a new magical wand, that is much weaker than zuriel's staff, and it only lets the player that you're attacking fight back, i.e. no pjers.

 

 

 

Is that over powered? I wouldn't think so. Would it have use? You betcha.

 

 

 

 

 

Now, to these other issues:

 

"That being said, I'm not sure how many high levels I know that are too stuipd to be aware of the existence of GWD. I know quite a few FTPers like that, but no PTPers. Somehow I'm making a connection."

 

... something about not using Argumentum Ad hominem rings a bell.

 

Next time you make a personal attack on me, I'm going to get all your little mistakes, compile them, and then show Tip.it why you can't stay on topic.

 

 

 

[hide=For that matter, why isn't everyone, including you, maxed melee?]Lets see, I've set a couple goals. My 1000th level is going to be from runecrafting - that means 70 runecrafting, so until that happens, I'm not going to touch other skills.

 

 

 

Right now I've got 90 strength, 65 attack, 51 defense. I like my account how it is, with 90 strength. I didn't want to be restricted to the high level crater only in bounty hunter, so I wasn't going to raise my attack or defense, until I maxed strength. Unfortunately for me, training in F2P is about 4x slower than it is in P2P, when you take into consideration that our equipment stinks compared to P2P (lower hits, lower accuracy), the training areas stink (moss and ice giants aren't as good as your member's only monsters), the training areas are overcrowded (with less than 1/3 the space of members only worlds, F2P's player density is much greater).

 

 

 

I don't enjoy range as a spell, and as far as I'm concerned, I've already maxed mage.

 

I might get my account to 99 strength soon, if I could find the spare time between college, my social life, my job, etc.

 

 

 

You can tell me til you're blue in the face to "Shut up and just pay the $5/month" - Unfortunately for me, I'm sinking into debt every day, every textbook, and as little as $5 a month is, it isn't worth it.

 

There's also the wasted effort if I get membership. How about you tell Syzygy to pay for members to get faster training?[/hide]

[Sir_Kurity]

70 mage + ice burst is still very effective at magic, magic is effective at most levels.

[compfreak847]

 

 

 

Maybe its "A skilled ranger is also able to take down a mage easily" or "Rangers have had a huge advantage over the combat triangle" You know... the combat triangle, with Mage, Melee and Range?

 

Yep, that was in your perfect little world before Zuriel's staff crashed and made the cost irrelevant. Knock out the rangers attack speed, and watch him die.

 

 

 

 

Do you have a problem arguing that high level mage combos are over powered, the darkbow spec is overpowered, and that the dclaw spec is over powered -- all in different forums at different times? Tell me, is hitting 60 with rune crossbows over powered? Or a 48/48 spec with a dark bow? How about a few DDS for 100+ damage, or 2 dclaw specs for 100+ damage?

 

Are those all overpowered?

 

Nope. Do all of those have an 80%+ chance of hitting both specs? Hint: No. It's mages accuracy that make it overpowered.

 

 

 

 

Here's the other thing. Everything you've talked about has been in your perfect world, 1v1 situation with no PJers. Add in the PJer element, and mage gets weaker and weaker.

 

Come to think of it, I've NEVER been PJed when fighting with mage in my usual spots. It's very rare to see more then one person at a time.

 

 

 

\

 

So, what if they introduced a new magical wand, that is much weaker than zuriel's staff, and it only lets the player that you're attacking fight back, i.e. no pjers.

 

 

 

Is that over powered? I wouldn't think so. Would it have use? You betcha.

 

Again, your completely missing the point of what mage is. Armor provides the vast majority of the boost - you could introduce a powerful spell with -50 magic attack, and it would be horrendously overpowered. Don't try and use magic bonus to compensate for a staff, because the staff bonus is only a tiny part of overall magic accuracy.

 

 

 

 

Now, to these other issues:

 

"That being said, I'm not sure how many high levels I know that are too stuipd to be aware of the existence of GWD. I know quite a few FTPers like that, but no PTPers. Somehow I'm making a connection."

 

... something about not using Argumentum Ad hominem rings a bell.

 

Next time you make a personal attack on me, I'm going to get all your little mistakes, compile them, and then show Tip.it why you can't stay on topic.

 

Your certainly welcome to do that. Unfortunately, Ad Hominem applies quite nicely in this situation - namely that I'm accusing you of knowing nothing about members because your FTP. Unfortunately, I'm also right. Your welcome to spout that all over tipit, I'm sure it will further help your cause.

 

 

 

 

You can tell me til you're blue in the face to "Shut up and just pay the $5/month" - Unfortunately for me, I'm sinking into debt every day, every textbook, and as little as $5 a month is, it isn't worth it.

 

This argument isn't about if you can pay, it's about if you should be arguing PTP spells when your FTP. The answer, unfortunately, is NO. You've never tried anything your talking about. My "blind man choosing a room color' fits perfectly.

[sees_all1]

 

 

Here's the other thing. Everything you've talked about has been in your perfect world, 1v1 situation with no PJers. Add in the PJer element, and mage gets weaker and weaker.

 

Come to think of it, I've NEVER been PJed when fighting with mage in my usual spots. It's very rare to see more then one person at a time.

 

 

 

 

So, what if they introduced a new magical wand, that is much weaker than zuriel's staff, and it only lets the player that you're attacking fight back, i.e. no pjers.

 

 

 

Is that over powered? I wouldn't think so. Would it have use? You betcha.

 

Again, your completely missing the point of what mage is. Armor provides the vast majority of the boost - you could introduce a powerful spell with -50 magic attack, and it would be horrendously overpowered. Don't try and use magic bonus to compensate for a staff, because the staff bonus is only a tiny part of overall magic accuracy.

 

 

So, let us take what is said here, and apply it to the OP -

 

In F2P, mage only has 1 type of staff, and 2 types of spell (fire blast, teleblock. Bind is too worthless to even waste nats on). If there was another weapon that was introduced for both F2P and P2P, that wasn't as strong as your Zuriel's staff, wasn't as strong as the other awesome staffs that you use, BUT the level requirements were different, would it still be used?

 

Yes, it would, in F2P, and maybe lower leveled mages in P2P.

 

 

 

I suggest you create a new account, get it's combat level to 65 (85 mage, 60 HP, 15 def, 45 prayer), and then try to PK with it in F2P worlds. Hint: You'll get piled by everyone, your pathetic F2P combat robes won't help you fend off melee, and you'll be broke from lousy drops even if you do manage to kill people.

 

 

 

You could also try to PK with another level 100 account, make a mage tank in P2P. You'll have a much better chance of getting PJed than if you were a level 135+ -because there are more people in your combat range who are willing to take you on. But you wouldn't know that because you PK with your maxed account, in areas that aren't highly trafficked (1 person at a time?).

 

 

 

 

Now, to these other issues:

 

"That being said, I'm not sure how many high levels I know that are too stuipd to be aware of the existence of GWD. I know quite a few FTPers like that, but no PTPers. Somehow I'm making a connection."

 

... something about not using Argumentum Ad hominem rings a bell.

 

Next time you make a personal attack on me, I'm going to get all your little mistakes, compile them, and then show Tip.it why you can't stay on topic.

 

Your certainly welcome to do that. Unfortunately, Ad Hominem applies quite nicely in this situation - namely that I'm accusing you of knowing nothing about members because your FTP. Unfortunately, I'm also right.

 

I'm saying you do not understand why magic needs to be updated so badly for F2P. You don't deal with PJing, you don't deal with lousy bonuses and lousier spells. Unfortunately, the OP deals with BOTH F2P and P2P mage, and when you say "Magic needs to be nerfed before it can receive an update" reflects the fact that all you're thinking about is new high level content that is stronger than what there currently is. It doesn't have to be a higher level, it doesn't have to be stronger - it can be different.