How Easy Do You Want It?

[Troacctid]

I believe you said this:

 

 

 

 

I think a rational player just accepts that skills are going to get faster to train as new updates come around

 

 

 

Then this:

 

 

Answer me this: what is it now that makes the game hard? Because the way I see it, it's been pretty damn easy from the start.

 

 

 

So you're saying that the game is already easy and new updates are going to make the game easier. My point is this is not a hard game but it does present some challenges. I dont believe that any 'rational' player would accept the game becoming easier and easier unless you want to be king of the hill over players of 10 years old. Erewhon2's golf example is a pretty good way of putting it. So, getting easier...good thing is it?

 

Easier in some ways and harder in others. I don't equate speed with difficulty, as I believe I already talked about at length.

 

 

 

As for those things you do find challenging, I'll bet none of them involve just grinding your levels, right? Honestly, it doesn't take a Zezima to get 99 slayer. Any moron can get a black mask, a whip, and some barrows armor and do what Duradel tells them to do.

 

 

 

Fletching is a prime example of a skill that no-one cares about, except for those who are going for it as their first 99 skill, because its one of the easiest skills to get. Players devalued this themselves. If the game goes easier as you suggest eventually we will be left a game with no real achievement left in any skill. This is also a good thing is it?

 

Jagex made fletching slower when string-x came out. Again, fast =/= easy.

 

 

 

I don't want to go way off on a tangent, but I don't think fletching is devalued so much because it's seen as easy, so much as because it's seen as useless, similar to smithing or herblore. And the fact that people don't care about a skill doesn't necessarily speak for the quality of the skill--look at how many people ignore skills like farming and summoning. But as I said, that's straying a little off topic.

 

 

 

I also think you've got the farming/ectophil thing mixed up as they were used as seperate examples, farming being in the OP.

 

This is only a side note, but I mentioned the two together because the ectophial is used often for herb runs, and I don't really use it for much else, so that's just what came to mind for me when it was brought up.

 

 

 

A couple of suggestions. First, if you don't understand something just ask. If the term 'slippery slope' doesn't make sense then all you had to do was ask me what it meant. Secondly use an on-line dictionary rather than Wiki. The link below provides some useful info where you can put the examples into context:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slippery+slope

-.-

[quelmotz]

How easy do I want it? I don't want it easy at all. The more challenging it is, the more rewarding it is, and it means much more to have that cape.

 

 

 

This might sound weird, but the harder it is, the easier it makes the game...because the greater/better the rewards, the easier the game becomes. So you're essentially contradicting yourself.

[Guest]

 

Easier in some ways and harder in others. I don't equate speed with difficulty, as I believe I already talked about at length.

 

As for those things you do find challenging, I'll bet none of them involve just grinding your levels, right? Honestly, it doesn't take a Zezima to get 99 slayer. Any moron can get a black mask, a whip, and some barrows armor and do what Duradel tells them to do.

 

 

 

I don't want to go way off on a tangent, but I don't think fletching is devalued so much because it's seen as easy, so much as because it's seen as useless, similar to smithing or herblore. And the fact that people don't care about a skill doesn't necessarily speak for the quality of the skill--look at how many people ignore skills like farming and summoning. But as I said, that's straying a little off topic.

 

 

 

Jagex made fletching slower when string-x came out. Again, fast =/= easy.

 

 

 

 

On the contrary, speed is a difficulty in itself, hence why runecrafting and slayer is a hotly contested issue as to which is the most 'difficult'. For skills as these it takes a lot of patience and many hours involved to grind out that xp. Hence why they are much rarer capes. If your theory was true they'd be a lot more common. Pyramid plunder ruined thieving as an achievement in terms of a cape. It only takes a few updates to ruin skills such as slayer and runecrafting as an achievement, just like what happened to thieving. You're right, any monkey can weild armour and weapons and do tasks, but how well can they stick to it and how much time is required to complete it? If you're honest with yourself, do you respect a slayer cape the same as a fletch cape?

 

 

 

Cost is also an issue. Maybe smithing and herblore aren't as useful as they could be, but in terms of time and cost investment they are way above a fletching cape. Fletching is common because its low cost and easy xp, not because its useless. Fletch or possibly cooking and firemaking are often a persons first cape. Why? Because they are low in cost and time constraints so they're classed as easy. Thats why nobody really gives a toss about these capes any more. If Slayer and RC were treated as such no-one would really care about any of the in-game capes.

 

 

 

I don't think people do ignore farming and summoning as such. They are skills that involve a lot of cost so people do them as they can afford them. Not everyone can afford to spend x mills on seeds and getting the charms for summoning, together with the secondaries. Farming in my opinion went down because its been made a lot easier by noted produce. It mas made easier when it needn't have been.

 

 

 

On the subject of what I find the most difficult I'd say sticking to skills as I have a habit of changing them (grinding we mentioned), combat as I'm not exactly the worlds best dueller or pker and some quests such as Mournings End's 2 are quite a challenge.

 

 

 

 

This is only a side note, but I mentioned the two together because the ectophial is used often for herb runs, and I don't really use it for much else, so that's just what came to mind for me when it was brought up.

 

 

 

Ok.

[Guest]

How easy do I want it? I don't want it easy at all. The more challenging it is, the more rewarding it is, and it means much more to have that cape.

 

 

 

This might sound weird, but the harder it is, the easier it makes the game...because the greater/better the rewards, the easier the game becomes. So you're essentially contradicting yourself.

 

 

 

Errr....No! I believe he's saying that if he decides he wants a cape he wants the challenge of getting it. A more challenging cape means this will increase his enjoyment factor of getting it later and showing it off because..well...he can.

[Erewhon2]

 

This might sound weird, but the harder it is, the easier it makes the game...because the greater/better the rewards, the easier the game becomes. So you're essentially contradicting yourself.

 

I would also argue this point, other than getting a cape, and there is more to the game than aspiring to a cape, although accomplishing that is a good feeling. The purpose of skill development is to be able to achieve more, smith higher items, make higher level potions, use shortcuts, this improves the variety of the game and yes can make some parts of the game easier....but you have to work for it! Many quests provide costumes and some xp, and occasionally some weapons or tools that may be useful, but do not make things significantly easier. It is the unnecessary updates by Jagex that significantly 'downskill' the game that is an issue for me and the point of this debate.

[swampjedi]

Keep in mind, there are very few things in RS that are hard. Tedious doesn't mean hard. Getting 99 in a skill isn't hard - it takes no thought, no strategy, only time (and lots of it). So you could argue that one is more tedious than the next, which is fair. And in my mind, reducing tediousness is always good.

 

 

 

Which things in RS are hard? Realistically, I don't know. I've never done any of the high-level content.

[Guest]

Keep in mind, there are very few things in RS that are hard. Tedious doesn't mean hard. Getting 99 in a skill isn't hard - it takes no thought, no strategy, only time (and lots of it). So you could argue that one is more tedious than the next, which is fair. And in my mind, reducing tediousness is always good.

 

 

 

Which things in RS are hard? Realistically, I don't know. I've never done any of the high-level content.

 

 

 

I'm sure your firemaking 99 was a lot more simple, in terms of cost and time to do than your herblore 99. You stuck it out and put in the effort of getting the ingredients as well as the vials.

 

 

 

If you're honest I'm sure you'd also be a little hacked off if an update made herblore a lot more easier in terms of time and cost. The cape is fairly exclusive at the moment.

[Troacctid]

[hide=troacctid wrote]Easier in some ways and harder in others. I don't equate speed with difficulty, as I believe I already talked about at length.

 

As for those things you do find challenging, I'll bet none of them involve just grinding your levels, right? Honestly, it doesn't take a Zezima to get 99 slayer. Any moron can get a black mask, a whip, and some barrows armor and do what Duradel tells them to do.

 

 

 

I don't want to go way off on a tangent, but I don't think fletching is devalued so much because it's seen as easy, so much as because it's seen as useless, similar to smithing or herblore. And the fact that people don't care about a skill doesn't necessarily speak for the quality of the skill--look at how many people ignore skills like farming and summoning. But as I said, that's straying a little off topic.

 

 

 

Jagex made fletching slower when string-x came out. Again, fast =/= easy.[/hide]On the contrary, speed is a difficulty in itself, hence why runecrafting and slayer is a hotly contested issue as to which is the most 'difficult'. For skills as these it takes a lot of patience and many hours involved to grind out that xp. Hence why they are much rarer capes. If your theory was true they'd be a lot more common. Pyramid plunder ruined thieving as an achievement in terms of a cape. It only takes a few updates to ruin skills such as slayer and runecrafting as an achievement, just like what happened to thieving. You're right, any monkey can weild armour and weapons and do tasks, but how well can they stick to it and how much time is required to complete it?

 

Speed doesn't eliminate any meaningful difficulty. It just alleviates tedium. What does remove difficulty is when one option is so much faster and more efficient that it blows all other options out of the water--that's why Pyramid Plunder "ruined" thieving, to use your word.

 

 

 

If you're honest with yourself, do you respect a slayer cape the same as a fletch cape?

 

This question reminded me of another post I made a few days ago. It was this post, which also happens to be related to what I'm talking about in this thread.

 

[hide=The relevant portion of that post]I'm solidly in favor of skillcapes because they look really cool. That's pretty much the extent of what they mean to me personally: they look really cool. Are they an impressive accomplishment? I don't think so; I view them as an indication of how you chose to spend some number of hours and as a key component of a snazzy character's outfit, and that's about it.

 

 

 

Level 99 doesn't really represent true mastery of a skill, anyway. Loads of people get 99 woodcutting off of willow trees. Totally inefficient way to train, but they still get to wear the cape. Does it mean they're good at woodcutting? Well, no, it just means they spent a lot of time on it. The quest cape is different in that it requires maintenance, and as an avid quester, I'll salute fellow quest enthusiasts who wear it because it indicates that they share similar tastes as me.[/hide]I'd take the slayer cape over the fletching cape mainly because imo black capes with red trim look way cooler than green capes with gold trim.

 

 

 

On the subject of what I find the most difficult I'd say sticking to skills as I have a habit of changing them (grinding we mentioned), combat as I'm not exactly the worlds best dueller or pker and some quests such as Mournings End's 2 are quite a challenge.

 

Well, there you are. None of those are likely to get any easier, are they? So your challenges are safe.

 

 

 

Keep in mind, there are very few things in RS that are hard. Tedious doesn't mean hard. Getting 99 in a skill isn't hard - it takes no thought, no strategy, only time (and lots of it). So you could argue that one is more tedious than the next, which is fair. And in my mind, reducing tediousness is always good.

 

 

 

Which things in RS are hard? Realistically, I don't know. I've never done any of the high-level content.

 

 

 

I'm sure your firemaking 99 was a lot more simple, in terms of cost and time to do than your herblore 99. You stuck it out and put in the effort of getting the ingredients as well as the vials.

 

 

 

If you're honest I'm sure you'd also be a little hacked off if an update made herblore a lot more easier in terms of time and cost. The cape is fairly exclusive at the moment.

 

Firemaking is more challenging than it gets credit for. Burning logs at maximum speed (by using a pattern other than a straight line from east to west) requires some amount of timing, dexterity, and concentration. You can't really multitask as easily as herblore--it's harder to chat with friends or look at another window while you train. Herblore requires a different kind of skill to train efficiently--tracking the fluctuating costs of potions and ingredients, knowing which things can buy and sell at prices above or below the median, and lots of evaluating of time/money trade-offs. Personally, I dislike both skills because they don't really do anything meaningful.

[quelmotz]

 

This might sound weird, but the harder it is, the easier it makes the game...because the greater/better the rewards, the easier the game becomes. So you're essentially contradicting yourself.

 

I would also argue this point, other than getting a cape, and there is more to the game than aspiring to a cape, although accomplishing that is a good feeling. The purpose of skill development is to be able to achieve more, smith higher items, make higher level potions, use shortcuts, this improves the variety of the game and yes can make some parts of the game easier....but you have to work for it! Many quests provide costumes and some xp, and occasionally some weapons or tools that may be useful, but do not make things significantly easier. It is the unnecessary updates by Jagex that significantly 'downskill' the game that is an issue for me and the point of this debate.

 

 

 

There you have it. I'm arguing that progress will always make the game easier, whether minuscule or huge. Even though the change might only make the game a tiny bit easier, it's still making the game easier.

 

 

 

On the point of "downskilling", I disagree. Most updates were just updates to make the game more convenient and smooth, and NOT making the game require less SKILL. Making the game smooth and convenient just allows players to have a more enjoyable experience while playing the game. It does make the game easier, but it doesn't make the game SO much easier as you're trying to claim.

 

 

 

How easy do I want it? I don't want it easy at all. The more challenging it is, the more rewarding it is, and it means much more to have that cape.

 

 

 

This might sound weird, but the harder it is, the easier it makes the game...because the greater/better the rewards, the easier the game becomes. So you're essentially contradicting yourself.

 

 

 

Errr....No! I believe he's saying that if he decides he wants a cape he wants the challenge of getting it. A more challenging cape means this will increase his enjoyment factor of getting it later and showing it off because..well...he can.

 

 

 

That's true I guess. But I was speaking more of the "physical" gains that he could get from it, since enjoyment is a relative term, and he might enjoy getting XXX but I don't enjoy getting the same XXX.

[Guest]

Speed doesn't eliminate any meaningful difficulty. It just alleviates tedium. What does remove difficulty is when one option is so much faster and more efficient that it blows all other options out of the water--that's why Pyramid Plunder "ruined" thieving, to use your word.

 

Players accept speed as a meaningful difficulty hence some capes are rarer than others. IF you were true to what you say then let's look at the case of you. Looking at your stats you have 99d Cooking, Fletching, Woodcutting and Fishing. All fairly fast skills to do and in the case of the first two, cheap and fast to do. Now why did you go for these four skills as your first four? Why not slayer first? After all you said this:

 

I'd take the slayer cape over the fletching cape mainly because imo black capes with red trim look way cooler than green capes with gold trim.

 

Youd have gone straight for slayer first if you really wanted to have a cool black cape. :^o

 

 

 

 

 

On the subject of what I find the most difficult I'd say sticking to skills as I have a habit of changing them (grinding we mentioned), combat as I'm not exactly the worlds best dueller or pker and some quests such as Mournings End's 2 are quite a challenge.

 

Well, there you are. None of those are likely to get any easier, are they? So your challenges are safe.

 

Youve missed the point. I do not want to see the whole game devalued into a game for 10 year olds as I said before, so it goes across the board. Skills, combat, quests everything. I would question anyones motives who would be happy to see this happen or say its inevitable.

 

 

Firemaking is more challenging than it gets credit for. Burning logs at maximum speed (by using a pattern other than a straight line from east to west) requires some amount of timing, dexterity, and concentration. You can't really multitask as easily as herblore--it's harder to chat with friends or look at another window while you train. Herblore requires a different kind of skill to train efficiently--tracking the fluctuating costs of potions and ingredients, knowing which things can buy and sell at prices above or below the median, and lots of evaluating of time/money trade-offs. Personally, I dislike both skills because they don't really do anything meaningful.

 

I totally disagree. Firemaking is relatively simple, demands little thought and the dexterity isnt exactly rocket science. As well as a much more substantial outlay in cost (unless you play it clever and get the stuff yourself) herblore is a much slower skill in comparison. If what you say was true, we would be inundated with herblore capes instead of the many firemaking capes we see now. If you disliked both skills then how come you have 82 firemaking and 73 herblore?

[Erewhon2]

There you have it. I'm arguing that progress will always make the game easier, whether minuscule or huge. Even though the change might only make the game a tiny bit easier, it's still making the game easier.

 

 

 

On the point of "downskilling", I disagree. Most updates were just updates to make the game more convenient and smooth, and NOT making the game require less SKILL. Making the game smooth and convenient just allows players to have a more enjoyable experience while playing the game. It does make the game easier, but it doesn't make the game SO much easier as you're trying to claim.

 

 

 

You really don't appear the understand this debate at all, We all know that things will be easier on an individual basis, certainly with skill development and general game progress and a few updates will smooth out some areas as you put it. The point of the debate is how easy do you want it? You seem to think that the all updates make just little 'tweaks' to the game, well that is not the case and others have given good examples of this. We are back to my golf analogy, you might want better clubs and a smoother green, but you wouldn't want the holes twice their size. #-o

 

 

 

Why don't you just admit you want the game as easy as they can make it....then tell me why? I might then be able to debate you....but this????? :wall:

[swampjedi]

Just a point - noting crops did NOT make farming easier. You forget that most plots are near banks and/or teleport spots.

 

 

 

I still think the idea of rating a skill as difficult by xp/hr is missing the point. Frankly, it should scream "the game is broken" if the only real way to train, say, mining to a high level is going to the middle of the desert and drop mining. Broken doesn't mean hard, any more than time means hard.

[Troacctid]

[hide=Off-topic]

Speed doesn't eliminate any meaningful difficulty. It just alleviates tedium. What does remove difficulty is when one option is so much faster and more efficient that it blows all other options out of the water--that's why Pyramid Plunder "ruined" thieving, to use your word.

 

Players accept speed as a meaningful difficulty hence some capes are rarer than others. IF you were true to what you say then let's look at the case of you. Looking at your stats you have 99d Cooking, Fletching, Woodcutting and Fishing. All fairly fast skills to do and in the case of the first two, cheap and fast to do. Now why did you go for these four skills as your first four? Why not slayer first? After all you said this:

 

I'd take the slayer cape over the fletching cape mainly because imo black capes with red trim look way cooler than green capes with gold trim.

 

Youd have gone straight for slayer first if you really wanted to have a cool black cape. :^o

Firemaking is relatively simple, demands little thought and the dexterity isnt exactly rocket science. As well as a much more substantial outlay in cost (unless you play it clever and get the stuff yourself) herblore is a much slower skill in comparison. If what you say was true, we would be inundated with herblore capes instead of the many firemaking capes we see now. If you disliked both skills then how come you have 82 firemaking and 73 herblore?

 

Huh? Fletching? What? I don't have 99 fletching...I mostly only bothered with 80 for playing SC anyway...

 

 

 

If you really must know, I got 99 fishing because I like to train fishing. Then I got 99 woodcutting because I like to train fishing, and I already had 99 fishing. Then I got 99 cooking because I wanted the money, and because I like having something I could just stop in any bank and train for a while instead of just sitting there, and cooking is effective in that regard. In other words, they're skills that I'm comfortable training. I'm not as comfortable with combat, or else I'd be going for 99 summoning, which imo is the best skill to get 99 in.

 

 

 

You can tailor an outfit to any skillcape, but for fletching, gold is such a common color for the trim that imo it doesn't lend itself to very unique outfits, and I'm not a fan of the dark green.

 

 

 

As for herblore and firemaking, I was speaking primarily from a game-design viewpoint. I don't necessarily dislike training them, I just don't prioritize them highly.[/hide]

 

 

 

There you have it. I'm arguing that progress will always make the game easier, whether minuscule or huge. Even though the change might only make the game a tiny bit easier, it's still making the game easier.

 

 

 

On the point of "downskilling", I disagree. Most updates were just updates to make the game more convenient and smooth, and NOT making the game require less SKILL. Making the game smooth and convenient just allows players to have a more enjoyable experience while playing the game. It does make the game easier, but it doesn't make the game SO much easier as you're trying to claim.

 

 

 

You really don't appear the understand this debate at all, We all know that things will be easier on an individual basis, certainly with skill development and general game progress and a few updates will smooth out some areas as you put it. The point of the debate is how easy do you want it? You seem to think that the all updates make just little 'tweaks' to the game, well that is not the case and others have given good examples of this. We are back to my golf analogy, you might want better clubs and a smoother green, but you wouldn't want the holes twice their size. #-o

 

 

 

Why don't you just admit you want the game as easy as they can make it....then tell me why? I might then be able to debate you....but this????? :wall:

 

What actually has made the game less of a challenge, other than tweaks? I can think of nothing in the last two years. Pyramid Plunder cabbaged things up...is that it? Most of the complaints, I think, are coming from equating tedium with difficulty.

[quelmotz]

 

 

 

There you have it. I'm arguing that progress will always make the game easier, whether minuscule or huge. Even though the change might only make the game a tiny bit easier, it's still making the game easier.

 

 

 

On the point of "downskilling", I disagree. Most updates were just updates to make the game more convenient and smooth, and NOT making the game require less SKILL. Making the game smooth and convenient just allows players to have a more enjoyable experience while playing the game. It does make the game easier, but it doesn't make the game SO much easier as you're trying to claim.

 

 

 

You really don't appear the understand this debate at all, We all know that things will be easier on an individual basis, certainly with skill development and general game progress and a few updates will smooth out some areas as you put it. The point of the debate is how easy do you want it? You seem to think that the all updates make just little 'tweaks' to the game, well that is not the case and others have given good examples of this. We are back to my golf analogy, you might want better clubs and a smoother green, but you wouldn't want the holes twice their size. #-o

 

 

 

Why don't you just admit you want the game as easy as they can make it....then tell me why? I might then be able to debate you....but this????? :wall:

 

What actually has made the game less of a challenge, other than tweaks? I can think of nothing in the last two years. Pyramid Plunder cabbaged things up...is that it? Most of the complaints, I think, are coming from equating tedium with difficulty.

 

 

 

:thumbup: +1

 

 

 

 

 

You don't seem to be getting my point at all. Why don't you stop forcing people to choose a side in your debate? Can't someone have another opinion? And just because an opinion is deemed "incapable to be debated with" by you, you have the right to dismiss it as rubbish and claim that the person has not contributed in any way. This is just my opinion - you have no right to try and force me to change it and "admit" that I want the game as easy as possible - because I don't want it to be as easy as possible. If it's that easy, why play it? You can just "complete" the game with minimal effort and time, and it wouldn't be serving it's purpose as a game, as a source of entertainment and to kill time. How is this stand even debatable? It's obviously wrong to say that you want the game as easy as possible because it will be failing it's fundamental concept as a game - to kill time. So why are you trying to force me to take this stand which is impossible to debate? Or are you such a sore loser that you have to have the "easier" topic so you can "win" the debate more easily?

[Sir_Kurity]

If its less tedious, i think its easier.

 

 

 

I know this is a far out example and has nothing to do with the real world/jagex/whatever but hey il throw it out there anyway.

 

 

 

Lets say you had option A of training magic, its free and gives 50k XP an hour, and that way of training is barraging people in castle wars / soul wars for fun laughing at your opponent and getting good xp.

 

 

 

Lets say you had option B of training magic, its the equivalent of firemaking, say enchanting necklaces or something, i donno, either way its 50k an hour, but its incredibly tedious and boring.

 

 

 

I for one would be pissed off if i did option B and suddenly option A came along. Because option A is "easier" because its less tedious and "fun" While option B is "harder" because it is more tedious less fun and more depressing.

[Troacctid]

If its less tedious, i think its easier.

 

 

 

I know this is a far out example and has nothing to do with the real world/jagex/whatever but hey il throw it out there anyway.

 

 

 

Lets say you had option A of training magic, its free and gives 50k XP an hour, and that way of training is barraging people in castle wars / soul wars for fun laughing at your opponent and getting good xp.

 

 

 

Lets say you had option B of training magic, its the equivalent of firemaking, say enchanting necklaces or something, i donno, either way its 50k an hour, but its incredibly tedious and boring.

 

 

 

I for one would be pissed off if i did option B and suddenly option A came along. Because option A is "easier" because its less tedious and "fun" While option B is "harder" because it is more tedious less fun and more depressing.

 

You'd be pissed because they made the game more fun after you had already played it the less fun way? Seems a little spiteful to me, tbh. You don't think that would be an improvement?

 

 

 

Like I've been saying, tedium is fake difficulty. It's equivalent in terms of game design to a platformer game taking an easy boss with two different attacks that are fairly simple to dodge, and then giving the boss a crapload of health so that it takes twenty minutes to kill him. Sure, it makes the game "harder," but it comes at the expense of fun, and that's bad.

[Guest]

If its less tedious, i think its easier.

 

 

 

I know this is a far out example and has nothing to do with the real world/jagex/whatever but hey il throw it out there anyway.

 

 

 

Lets say you had option A of training magic, its free and gives 50k XP an hour, and that way of training is barraging people in castle wars / soul wars for fun laughing at your opponent and getting good xp.

 

 

 

Lets say you had option B of training magic, its the equivalent of firemaking, say enchanting necklaces or something, i donno, either way its 50k an hour, but its incredibly tedious and boring.

 

 

 

I for one would be pissed off if i did option B and suddenly option A came along. Because option A is "easier" because its less tedious and "fun" While option B is "harder" because it is more tedious less fun and more depressing.

 

You'd be pissed because they made the game more fun after you had already played it the less fun way? Seems a little spiteful to me, tbh. You don't think that would be an improvement?

 

No he wouldnt be happy if he was made to do it one way, so he jumps through the hoops to do it, then someone changes the goalposts on him. Everyone else gets a more fun or easier ride than he did yet the achievement is still the same.

 

 

 

Like I've been saying, tedium is fake difficulty. It's equivalent in terms of game design to a platformer game taking an easy boss with two different attacks that are fairly simple to dodge, and then giving the boss a crapload of health so that it takes twenty minutes to kill him. Sure, it makes the game "harder," but it comes at the expense of fun, and that's bad.

 

 

 

So are you saying tedium is hard or not hard? If it isn't hard then how come you ignored the post where I pointed out about you going for easier skills? If the difficulty was so fake and you think slayer is a really cool cape, why level the other four i mentoned first to 99 especially with the comments about fletching being a useless skill.

[Guest]

 

 

 

:thumbup: +1

 

 

 

You don't seem to be getting my point at all. Why don't you stop forcing people to choose a side in your debate? Can't someone have another opinion? And just because an opinion is deemed "incapable to be debated with" by you, you have the right to dismiss it as rubbish and claim that the person has not contributed in any way. This is just my opinion - you have no right to try and force me to change it and "admit" that I want the game as easy as possible - because I don't want it to be as easy as possible.

 

 

 

Maybe its because you are on the side of 'easyness is inevitable' and up until this point you've seen nothing wrong with what you've been saying.

 

 

 

 

If it's that easy, why play it?

 

 

Ahhhh....Now we're getting somewhere.

 

 

 

 

You can just "complete" the game with minimal effort and time, and it wouldn't be serving it's purpose as a game, as a source of entertainment and to kill time. How is this stand even debatable? It's obviously wrong to say that you want the game as easy as possible because it will be failing it's fundamental concept as a game - to kill time. So why are you trying to force me to take this stand which is impossible to debate? Or are you such a sore loser that you have to have the "easier" topic so you can "win" the debate more easily?

 

 

 

A debate isn't about who wins or loses. It's about putting your cards on the table and pummelling out the points about what you believe. I don't get the easier topic bit. We could debate about any topic, none easier than the other. I think Erewhon2 was trying to get you to be honest, and now you have. You've spoken that if a game is too easy then why play it and it wouldn't serve its purpose as a game if you made it too easy. It also goes against what you've said about the game will become more easier as time goes on and updates/tweaks are done but you expressed this as if it was just a natural course and didn't really matter.

 

 

 

If the game continues to be updated and tweaked could this devalue things in the game making it too easy?

[Erewhon2]

 

You don't seem to be getting my point at all. Why don't you stop forcing people to choose a side in your debate? Can't someone have another opinion? And just because an opinion is deemed "incapable to be debated with" by you, you have the right to dismiss it as rubbish and claim that the person has not contributed in any way. This is just my opinion - you have no right to try and force me to change it and "admit" that I want the game as easy as possible - because I don't want it to be as easy as possible. If it's that easy, why play it? You can just "complete" the game with minimal effort and time, and it wouldn't be serving it's purpose as a game, as a source of entertainment and to kill time. How is this stand even debatable? It's obviously wrong to say that you want the game as easy as possible because it will be failing it's fundamental concept as a game - to kill time. So why are you trying to force me to take this stand which is impossible to debate? Or are you such a sore loser that you have to have the "easier" topic so you can "win" the debate more easily?

 

 

 

A debate is about questioning and challenging anothers opinion...arguing the point. This is probably the clearest statement you have yet made and it has taken a lot of pushing for you actually give a reasoned opinion on the topic heading. One of the issues I have is that you also demonstrate a very aggressive attitude to debating, in which case stay on the 'rants' where you spend most of your time. Though goodness knows why you do, when you're not even a full time player of rs.

 

 

 

However the points you have made still appear to contradict these earlier statements by you.

 

There you have it. I'm arguing that progress will always make the game easier, whether minuscule or huge. Even though the change might only make the game a tiny bit easier, it's still making the game easier.

 

 

 

 

This is a quote from you earlier on in the debate

 

 

 

The game is always going to be made easier and easier, more convenient and more convenient. It's part of progress, and you can't stop it. Even if the game is "easy" enough now, why not just go all out and make all skills of the same "easiness" level? Put in bury-x, firemake-x, etc. Who cares about those people who complain that they got "xxx skill the old way". The game is always changing. They can go and boast about it if they want - skillcapes are to show that you HAVE a 99, not HOW you got the 99.

 

 

 

For you it appears to be all about achieving the '99' as quickly as possible, these points from you certainly suggest you are looking for the easiest options. :shame:

[Troacctid]

[hide=troacctid wrote]

If its less tedious, i think its easier.

 

 

 

I know this is a far out example and has nothing to do with the real world/jagex/whatever but hey il throw it out there anyway.

 

 

 

Lets say you had option A of training magic, its free and gives 50k XP an hour, and that way of training is barraging people in castle wars / soul wars for fun laughing at your opponent and getting good xp.

 

 

 

Lets say you had option B of training magic, its the equivalent of firemaking, say enchanting necklaces or something, i donno, either way its 50k an hour, but its incredibly tedious and boring.

 

 

 

I for one would be pissed off if i did option B and suddenly option A came along. Because option A is "easier" because its less tedious and "fun" While option B is "harder" because it is more tedious less fun and more depressing.

 

You'd be pissed because they made the game more fun after you had already played it the less fun way? Seems a little spiteful to me, tbh. You don't think that would be an improvement?[/hide]

 

No he wouldnt be happy if he was made to do it one way, so he jumps through the hoops to do it, then someone changes the goalposts on him. Everyone else gets a more fun or easier ride than he did yet the achievement is still the same.

 

Uh, yeah, getting annoyed because people are having fun. Sounds grouchy to me. It's not as if you're not allowed to go train magic some more in the new way if you like it so much better. There's nothing stopping you.

 

 

 

I wish Truthscape was still around so I could link to Qeltar's old rant called "Please Don't Resent My Toilet," because he covered this exact topic pretty conclusively.

 

 

 

So are you saying tedium is hard or not hard? If it isn't hard then how come you ignored the post where I pointed out about you going for easier skills? If the difficulty was so fake and you think slayer is a really cool cape, why level the other four i mentoned first to 99 especially with the comments about fletching being a useless skill.

 

Oh, I hid that section of my response because it was off-topic. It was on the previous page.

 

 

 

[hide=Off-topic]

Speed doesn't eliminate any meaningful difficulty. It just alleviates tedium. What does remove difficulty is when one option is so much faster and more efficient that it blows all other options out of the water--that's why Pyramid Plunder "ruined" thieving, to use your word.

 

Players accept speed as a meaningful difficulty hence some capes are rarer than others. IF you were true to what you say then let's look at the case of you. Looking at your stats you have 99d Cooking, Fletching, Woodcutting and Fishing. All fairly fast skills to do and in the case of the first two, cheap and fast to do. Now why did you go for these four skills as your first four? Why not slayer first? After all you said this:

 

I'd take the slayer cape over the fletching cape mainly because imo black capes with red trim look way cooler than green capes with gold trim.

 

Youd have gone straight for slayer first if you really wanted to have a cool black cape. :^o

Firemaking is relatively simple, demands little thought and the dexterity isnt exactly rocket science. As well as a much more substantial outlay in cost (unless you play it clever and get the stuff yourself) herblore is a much slower skill in comparison. If what you say was true, we would be inundated with herblore capes instead of the many firemaking capes we see now. If you disliked both skills then how come you have 82 firemaking and 73 herblore?

 

Huh? Fletching? What? I don't have 99 fletching...I mostly only bothered with 80 for playing SC anyway...

 

 

 

If you really must know, I got 99 fishing because I like to train fishing. Then I got 99 woodcutting because I like to train fishing, and I already had 99 fishing. Then I got 99 cooking because I wanted the money, and because I like having something I could just stop in any bank and train for a while instead of just sitting there, and cooking is effective in that regard. In other words, they're skills that I'm comfortable training. I'm not as comfortable with combat, or else I'd be going for 99 summoning, which imo is the best skill to get 99 in.

 

 

 

You can tailor an outfit to any skillcape, but for fletching, gold is such a common color for the trim that imo it doesn't lend itself to very unique outfits, and I'm not a fan of the dark green.

 

 

 

As for herblore and firemaking, I was speaking primarily from a game-design viewpoint. I don't necessarily dislike training them, I just don't prioritize them highly.[/hide]

 

 

 

For the record, no, tedium =/= difficulty. Period.

[being_true]

tbh i couldnt have said it better myself i completely agree with you. I will admit i use stealing creations alot which is probably the worst at making alot of skills easier. The way i see it is it makes it cheaper but about same amount of time since you still spend time playing the game plus its a fun game.

 

 

 

Anyways i remember the days when something as simple as buying a whip in w2 for a good price could take a few seconds one day and an hour the next... or even logging onto w2 for that matter lol

 

The days millions werent as easily made in a few hours or days as it is today.

 

 

 

alot more but i just accept it and if i dont like the idea of an update, aka pyramid plounder for one, i just dont do it and train elsewhere or a different way

[quelmotz]

quelmotz wrote:

 

You don't seem to be getting my point at all. Why don't you stop forcing people to choose a side in your debate? Can't someone have another opinion? And just because an opinion is deemed "incapable to be debated with" by you, you have the right to dismiss it as rubbish and claim that the person has not contributed in any way. This is just my opinion - you have no right to try and force me to change it and "admit" that I want the game as easy as possible - because I don't want it to be as easy as possible. If it's that easy, why play it? You can just "complete" the game with minimal effort and time, and it wouldn't be serving it's purpose as a game, as a source of entertainment and to kill time. How is this stand even debatable? It's obviously wrong to say that you want the game as easy as possible because it will be failing it's fundamental concept as a game - to kill time. So why are you trying to force me to take this stand which is impossible to debate? Or are you such a sore loser that you have to have the "easier" topic so you can "win" the debate more easily?

 

 

 

 

 

A debate is about questioning and challenging anothers opinion...arguing the point. This is probably the clearest statement you have yet made and it has taken a lot of pushing for you actually give a reasoned opinion on the topic heading. One of the issues I have is that you also demonstrate a very aggressive attitude to debating, in which case stay on the 'rants' where you spend most of your time. Though goodness knows why you do, when you're not even a full time player of rs.

 

 

 

Debates are meant to be aggressive and heated. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Anyway, just because I'm not a full-time player doesn't mean I can't relax/kill time on the forums by debating/ranting/whatever.

 

 

 

And also, you seem to be resorting to a lot of personal issues and "ad hominems". Why don't you cut the crap about questioning "why I posted here anyway since I'm XXX" and all that and focus on the debate instead?

 

 

 

However the points you have made still appear to contradict these earlier statements by you.

 

quelmotz wrote:

 

There you have it. I'm arguing that progress will always make the game easier, whether minuscule or huge. Even though the change might only make the game a tiny bit easier, it's still making the game easier.

 

 

 

 

 

This is a quote from you earlier on in the debate

 

 

 

Quote:

 

The game is always going to be made easier and easier, more convenient and more convenient. It's part of progress, and you can't stop it. Even if the game is "easy" enough now, why not just go all out and make all skills of the same "easiness" level? Put in bury-x, firemake-x, etc. Who cares about those people who complain that they got "xxx skill the old way". The game is always changing. They can go and boast about it if they want - skillcapes are to show that you HAVE a 99, not HOW you got the 99.

 

 

 

For you it appears to be all about achieving the '99' as quickly as possible, these points from you certainly suggest you are looking for the easiest options. :shame:

 

 

 

You seem to be missing the point that AT THIS POINT in time, the game is still relatively difficult compared to other MMORPGs. Making all the skills of the same difficulty level wouldn't do much to make the game "extremely easy".

 

 

 

I'm not looking at the easiest options - I'm just saying the game will always make the game easier and easier. I've already told you I'm not taking any sides.

 

 

 

quelmotz wrote:

 

 

 

:thumbup: +1

 

 

 

You don't seem to be getting my point at all. Why don't you stop forcing people to choose a side in your debate? Can't someone have another opinion? And just because an opinion is deemed "incapable to be debated with" by you, you have the right to dismiss it as rubbish and claim that the person has not contributed in any way. This is just my opinion - you have no right to try and force me to change it and "admit" that I want the game as easy as possible - because I don't want it to be as easy as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe its because you are on the side of 'easyness is inevitable' and up until this point you've seen nothing wrong with what you've been saying.

 

 

 

True. Good that you acknowledge it. :lol:

 

 

 

Quote:

 

You can just "complete" the game with minimal effort and time, and it wouldn't be serving it's purpose as a game, as a source of entertainment and to kill time. How is this stand even debatable? It's obviously wrong to say that you want the game as easy as possible because it will be failing it's fundamental concept as a game - to kill time. So why are you trying to force me to take this stand which is impossible to debate? Or are you such a sore loser that you have to have the "easier" topic so you can "win" the debate more easily?

 

 

 

 

 

A debate isn't about who wins or loses. It's about putting your cards on the table and pummelling out the points about what you believe. I don't get the easier topic bit. We could debate about any topic, none easier than the other. I think Erewhon2 was trying to get you to be honest, and now you have. You've spoken that if a game is too easy then why play it and it wouldn't serve its purpose as a game if you made it too easy. It also goes against what you've said about the game will become more easier as time goes on and updates/tweaks are done but you expressed this as if it was just a natural course and didn't really matter.

 

 

 

This is not going against my points I made earlier.

 

 

 

There's a subtle difference. I've said before, one change making the game easier, e.g. cook-x is EXTREMELY minuscule on the chain of events that make the game easier. It would take hundreds thousands of events making the game easier to make it so easy it doesn't even serve it's purpose as a game.

[Guest]

 

Uh, yeah, getting annoyed because people are having fun. Sounds grouchy to me. It's not as if you're not allowed to go train magic some more in the new way if you like it so much better. There's nothing stopping you.

 

 

 

I wish Truthscape was still around so I could link to Qeltar's old rant called "Please Don't Resent My Toilet," because he covered this exact topic pretty conclusively.

 

You completely missed the point. See erewhon2s comments about skills being made easier at the expensive of those who did them before in the OP.

 

 

 

 

Huh? Fletching? What? I don't have 99 fletching...I mostly only bothered with 80 for playing SC anyway...

 

Whooops! I stand corrected. :?

 

 

If you really must know, I got 99 fishing because I like to train fishing. Then I got 99 woodcutting because I like to train fishing, and I already had 99 fishing. Then I got 99 cooking because I wanted the money, and because I like having something I could just stop in any bank and train for a while instead of just sitting there, and cooking is effective in that regard. In other words, they're skills that I'm comfortable training. I'm not as comfortable with combat, or else I'd be going for 99 summoning, which imo is the best skill to get 99 in.

 

 

 

This was very ON topic. Youve 99d some of the simplest skills in RS in terms of time and/or cost yet youre saying tedium does not equate to difficulty. You would have backed up your case if youd gone for something a bit more challenging, even if you had 99d one skill that took a more of a challenge. If you think Summoning is the best cape youd just do it and not back out of it. Considering your combat skills mostly lie in the 80s Id say your just making excuses to yourself because you dont fancy it. Too long so too hard. :^o

 

 

 

 

You can tailor an outfit to any skillcape, but for fletching, gold is such a common color for the trim that imo it doesn't lend itself to very unique outfits, and I'm not a fan of the dark green.

 

Whatever floats your boat.

 

 

 

 

As for herblore and firemaking, I was speaking primarily from a game-design viewpoint. I don't necessarily dislike training them, I just don't prioritize them highly.

 

Really? I thought you said this:

 

Personally, I dislike both skills because they don't really do anything meaningful.

 

Your posts are very contradictory. You argue one thing then say or do another.

 

 

 

 

For the record, no, tedium =/= difficulty. Period.

 

:^o

[Guest]

There's a subtle difference. I've said before, one change making the game easier, e.g. cook-x is EXTREMELY minuscule on the chain of events that make the game easier. It would take hundreds thousands of events making the game easier to make it so easy it doesn't even serve it's purpose as a game.

 

 

 

If we were seeing the odd miniscule change here and there I would agree. However I disagree. What happened with pyramid plunder or noted farm produce could happen to any skill. All it takes is for more people to whinge a skill takes them too long or Jagex to have another of its bright ideas to devalue another skill. Same with weapons, items, G.E etc. As soon as you start to make things easier in some way it starts to lose its original value.

[Troacctid]

 

Uh, yeah, getting annoyed because people are having fun. Sounds grouchy to me. It's not as if you're not allowed to go train magic some more in the new way if you like it so much better. There's nothing stopping you.

 

 

 

I wish Truthscape was still around so I could link to Qeltar's old rant called "Please Don't Resent My Toilet," because he covered this exact topic pretty conclusively.

 

You completely missed the point. See erewhon2s comments about skills being made easier at the expensive of those who did them before in the OP.

 

It's not "at the expense" of anybody. Nobody's xp is being revoked.

 

 

 

[hide=Off-topic again]The reason I'm hiding this section of my post as off-topic is that the validity of my main argument is not tied in any meaningful way to my stats or to my opinions on other issues like which skills are best. I don't want to use up all this space on the page to deal with tangential personal issues. I don't mind answering them because I have nothing to hide and everyone likes to talk about themself, but I don't want to hijack the debate.

 

 

Huh? Fletching? What? I don't have 99 fletching...I mostly only bothered with 80 for playing SC anyway...

 

Whooops! I stand corrected. :?

 

 

If you really must know, I got 99 fishing because I like to train fishing. Then I got 99 woodcutting because I like to train fishing, and I already had 99 fishing. Then I got 99 cooking because I wanted the money, and because I like having something I could just stop in any bank and train for a while instead of just sitting there, and cooking is effective in that regard. In other words, they're skills that I'm comfortable training. I'm not as comfortable with combat, or else I'd be going for 99 summoning, which imo is the best skill to get 99 in.

 

 

 

This was very ON topic. Youve 99d some of the simplest skills in RS in terms of time and/or cost yet youre saying tedium does not equate to difficulty. You would have backed up your case if youd gone for something a bit more challenging, even if you had 99d one skill that took a more of a challenge. If you think Summoning is the best cape youd just do it and not back out of it. Considering your combat skills mostly lie in the 80s Id say your just making excuses to yourself because you dont fancy it. Too long so too hard. :^o

 

Making excuses because I don't fancy it? I said right-out I don't fancy it, didn't I? I'm comfortable training fishing. I'm not comfortable training combat. Nothing to do with how good or bad the skills are. I just don't feel like getting 99 in a skill I don't like training. My capes of accomplishment are easy to explain. Well, I suppose the story of how and why I decided to get my first skillcape is a medium-length one that probably wouldn't interest you. But I wouldn't have gotten 99 fishing if I didn't like training it. And I got 99 woodcutting because fishing is my favorite skill to train, and I consider woodcutting and fishing to be more or less identical gameplay-wise. I completed all the quests third because quests are my favorite aspect of the game and I would have done most of them anyway. And I got 99 cooking fourth primarily for the money--made around 50m profit by the end, give or take; I'm not sure exactly because I didn't buy and sell everything at once and I was doing lots of farming and stuff at the same time, but it's somewhere in the ballpark. I mean, obviously there are a number of factors that would entice someone to commit hundreds of hours to one activity, so it's a little deeper than just that, but I assure you I did not consider "simplicity" to be a determining factor in which skill I chose to train.

 

 

 

Personally, I consider the simplest skill in the game to be agility, because with the exception of the Brimhaven arena, nothing is consumed or produced and all the gameplay is the same. A monkey could get 99 agility. Pun intended. Cooking is actually relatively complicated because of the staggering amount of dishes to choose from--pizza, curry, monkfish, sharks, swordfish, trout, salmon, butter, potatoes, even karambwan.

 

 

 

 

As for herblore and firemaking, I was speaking primarily from a game-design viewpoint. I don't necessarily dislike training them, I just don't prioritize them highly.

 

Really? I thought you said this:

 

Personally, I dislike both skills because they don't really do anything meaningful.

 

Your posts are very contradictory. You argue one thing then say or do another.

 

I don't see the contradiction.[/hide]

 

 

 

There's a subtle difference. I've said before, one change making the game easier, e.g. cook-x is EXTREMELY minuscule on the chain of events that make the game easier. It would take hundreds thousands of events making the game easier to make it so easy it doesn't even serve it's purpose as a game.

 

 

 

If we were seeing the odd miniscule change here and there I would agree. However I disagree. What happened with pyramid plunder or noted farm produce could happen to any skill. All it takes is for more people to whinge a skill takes them too long or Jagex to have another of its bright ideas to devalue another skill. Same with weapons, items, G.E etc. As soon as you start to make things easier in some way it starts to lose its original value.

 

"As soon as you start to make things easier in some way" is too easy for you, then? That seems extreme, don't you think?

 

 

 

Anyway, "the odd miniscule change here and there" is pretty much exactly what we're seeing now.

 

 

 

This last bit isn't related to my response to anyone else's post here, but I want to throw this quote out there from Andrew Gower's Q&A today, because he mentioned this topic.

 

Eum3 asks:

 

 

 

What do you think about the fact that RuneScape is slowly getting easier?

 

(Stealing Creation, Soul Wars, Run Energy update, etc.)

 

 

 

Answer:

 

 

 

Well I think SOME things are getting easier, but the overall challenge of completing everything the game has to offer certainly isn't getting easier. Doing everything and maxing out everything is probably harder than it has ever been, because we also add new skills, new quests, etc.. which makes finishing everything harder over all.

 

 

 

Also I always find it odd how whenever we make something easier people complain the game is getting easier, and whenever we remove something that was too rewarding and was making the game too easy people instead complain that we've just removed their favourite way of leveling or making money. We really can't win!

 

I think he brings up a valid point that new content also adds more new challenges for players to complete. If there's one thing that's not getting any easier over time, it's a quest cape.