How Easy Do You Want It?

[Troacctid]

troacctid wrote:

 

Skills are mostly grinding-based, and updates that make skills, as you say, "easier," are primarily aimed at taking the grinding out of grinding.

 

Well you know my stand point on supposed 'grinding' by now. I understand your previous point about direct interface improvements, that have no relation to skill development and don't have a problem with that. I still have a problem with the fact that because some players don't like certain aspects of the game, instead of avoiding that skill, they still want to '99' it! And want the tedium removed, irrespective of others who enjoy it the way it is.

 

* The updates that do make skills easier are the primarily interface-based small tweaks. (Yes, within my definition of "easier.")

 

See above.

 

 

Can you give specific examples of that kind of upgrade that negatively impacted your experience of the game by making it faster or easier?

 

One of my key arguments is for variety, the example of "smoking kills", gave variety to slayer and that was a good thing. I have given examples before...and its not about negative impact, its about how far does it go? How easy to people want the game to be? My examples of unnecessary and unbalanced updates would be: Noted crops, auto refill for ectofunctus, Pyramid Plunder, rest stops (I worked hard for my agility so I didn't take so long to recover, and admittedly loved every minute of it :thumbup: ), godswords, bandos.

Look. I like farming. Farming is one of my favorite skills. But there are things about it that bother me. For example, I don't like it when I visit my plant and find that it's diseased, but I have to teleport back to the bank to get coins so that I can buy a plant cure. I think we should be able to store plant cures with Tool Leprechauns to remove that frustrating aspect of the activity.

 

Right there we have a certain aspect of farming that I don't like, but I'm sure as hell not going to stop farming because of it. Farming is still a great skill. And just because I'm willing to keep farming in spite of it doesn't mean I wouldn't like it better if it was fixed. I enjoy it the way it is, but I still want the little niggles worked out as much as possible.

 

Again, I would challenge you to give a specific example of this kind of small, "bits & pieces" update that made the game less fun for you. You gave examples, but Pyramid Plunder and the God Wars Dungeon are completely different types of game updates and not what i was referring to at all. (Also, it's debatable whether Godswords & Bandos made the game easier; by my definition--which we're still using since you haven't provided another--they don't necessarily decrease the advantage a skilled player has over a less-skilled player, so they don't necessarily make the game easier.)

[Obtaurian]

- I want the game to be a challenge.

- I do not believe that frustration = challenge.

- I do not want the game to be frustrating.

- I do not believe that skills are challenges.

- I believe that skills should be a means to an end, and not the endgame in themselves.

- I believe that the difficulty in skills are finding the most efficient method to train them.

- I believe that Slayer and Runecrafting are the only two skills that require actual skill.

- I believe that quests have the potential to be the most challenging aspect of Runescape, if they aren't already.

- I do not believe that updates of convenience, such as noted produce and automatic refilling of the ectophial, make the game easier.

- I do not believe that updates need to be bigger and better than all updates before them. For example, I do not believe that level 90 armor should have to be the best armor for any situation, period. A good example is the Godsword, which is the best weapon for SOME situations, but not all situations.

 

This quote sums up my preferences nicely:

 

"Getting the annoying 99 cape should not be the "achievement" here, the achievement should be beating the Uber Ultimate Grandmaster Quest, that unlocks a Fight Caves-like challenge, which gives the game Ultimate weapons that are required to beat the Z0mg-Giant-Corporeal-Tztok-Dragon-Mahjarrat-Beast-. (level - 1337)"

 

I noticed that the OP responded to this quote earlier in the thread by assuming that the poster was arguing that Runescape should be combat based. I'll head that off now by saying that the quote above is obviously an example, and I will not respond to any ridiculous assumptions made by the OP or anyone else. My opinions are clearly listed at the beginning of this post. Argue those if you'd like.

[quelmotz]

GE is great for merchanting.

 

No more standing in varrock west bank and square, which by the way was a real lagfest back in the day, trying to sell your stuff for 50k more. Typing it out again and again... And again, and then people trade you, you put it up, ask for money, they walk away....

 

GE is great.

 

Then you obviously were not very good at merchanting.

 

With small amounts of cash (3m - 4m) you could double your money in a day simply merchanting rune sets. With the GE you would be lucky to make 500k in a day with 3m - 4m.

 

GE is bad for real merchants.

 

Explain.

 

The GE didn't affect merchanting negatively, trade limits did. So don't blame the GE, blame trade limits. Before the trade limits merchants were effectively robbing people in daylight.

[Guest jrhairychest]

It's a DAMNED FREE WORLD SO WILL YOU PEOPLE SHUT THE HELL UP? CAN'T I DO SOMETHING WITHOUT PEOPLE SCREAMING THAT I HAVE NO RIGHT TO DO IT OR IMPOSING THEIR STUPID OPINION ON ME?

 

Seriously...

Jrhairychest and Erewhon2 thinks you have no opinion, just because you are semi-retired. Either that, or they do it for lulz.

 

If that is the case, then why don't they say that to just about everybody who does not play Runescape anymore?

 

Speaking of which, the main reason of why people quit is because of so much updates. Many people whine about how easy the game became, and how awful the game will be in the future. Why can't those people learn to appreciate the game as it is, instead of ranting and ranting pointlessly in the RSOF rants?

 

You're missing the point. I've no objection to people airing their views if they are actually know what they're talking about, or are at least in a position to talk about such things. To play a little runescape, gain low ranks in a few skills then place objections to things hardly warrants confidence in the player knows what he is talking about. Retirement after a few low skills? Sorry I thought players retired after at least giving the game a thorough chance to see it through to be able to demonstrate some sort of knowledge and experience to know what they are talking about.

[quelmotz]

It's a DAMNED FREE WORLD SO WILL YOU PEOPLE SHUT THE HELL UP? CAN'T I DO SOMETHING WITHOUT PEOPLE SCREAMING THAT I HAVE NO RIGHT TO DO IT OR IMPOSING THEIR STUPID OPINION ON ME?

 

Seriously...

Jrhairychest and Erewhon2 thinks you have no opinion, just because you are semi-retired. Either that, or they do it for lulz.

 

If that is the case, then why don't they say that to just about everybody who does not play Runescape anymore?

 

Speaking of which, the main reason of why people quit is because of so much updates. Many people whine about how easy the game became, and how awful the game will be in the future. Why can't those people learn to appreciate the game as it is, instead of ranting and ranting pointlessly in the RSOF rants?

 

You're missing the point. I've no objection to people airing their views if they are actually know what they're talking about, or are at least in a position to talk about such things. To play a little runescape, gain low ranks in a few skills then place objections to things hardly warrants confidence in the player knows what he is talking about. Retirement after a few low skills? Sorry I thought players retired after at least giving the game a thorough chance to see it through to be able to demonstrate some sort of knowledge and experience to know what they are talking about.

 

Quit acting like your big stats are a big deal.

 

Will you just shut the hell up being judgmental and trying to impose your idiotic opinion that anyone who has low stats has no right to retire or post on the forums. Stop thinking that you have more rights than someone else just because of your damned stats in a game. I have as much right as you to post here, and you have absolutely no right to comment that I have no right to post here.

 

Sorry that you have a severely exaggerated opinion on what a "thorough chance" is. Go try the F2P version of the game without using any single one member item/skill then. You'll see how fast you'll get bored and want to retire. I've already done just about everything worth doing in F2P. All the quests, skills up to a certain point where it gets boring and the rewards suck.

[Erewhon2]

It's a DAMNED FREE WORLD SO WILL YOU PEOPLE SHUT THE HELL UP? CAN'T I DO SOMETHING WITHOUT PEOPLE SCREAMING THAT I HAVE NO RIGHT TO DO IT OR IMPOSING THEIR STUPID OPINION ON ME?

 

Seriously...

Jrhairychest and Erewhon2 thinks you have no opinion, just because you are semi-retired. Either that, or they do it for lulz.

 

If that is the case, then why don't they say that to just about everybody who does not play Runescape anymore?

 

Speaking of which, the main reason of why people quit is because of so much updates. Many people whine about how easy the game became, and how awful the game will be in the future. Why can't those people learn to appreciate the game as it is, instead of ranting and ranting pointlessly in the RSOF rants?

 

You're missing the point. I've no objection to people airing their views if they are actually know what they're talking about, or are at least in a position to talk about such things. To play a little runescape, gain low ranks in a few skills then place objections to things hardly warrants confidence in the player knows what he is talking about. Retirement after a few low skills? Sorry I thought players retired after at least giving the game a thorough chance to see it through to be able to demonstrate some sort of knowledge and experience to know what they are talking about.

 

Quit acting like your big stats are a big deal.

 

Will you just shut the hell up being judgmental and trying to impose your idiotic opinion that anyone who has low stats has no right to retire or post on the forums. Stop thinking that you have more rights than someone else just because of your damned stats in a game. I have as much right as you to post here, and you have absolutely no right to comment that I have no right to post here.

 

Sorry that you have a severely exaggerated opinion on what a "thorough chance" is. Go try the F2P version of the game without using any single one member item/skill then. You'll see how fast you'll get bored and want to retire. I've already done just about everything worth doing in F2P. All the quests, skills up to a certain point where it gets boring and the rewards suck.

Well saying that your 'rants' don't hold weight because it appears your experience of the game is limited is just an opinion, same as you saying you have the right to post. No one is saying you can't post, certainly I haven't. But I question your ongoing interest in talking about RS as you hate the game.....I mean, what purpose does it serve?

This is way off topic, but I think there is an interesting debate here, I think I'll put it up as a topic in its own right :thumbsup:

[quelmotz]

It's a DAMNED FREE WORLD SO WILL YOU PEOPLE SHUT THE HELL UP? CAN'T I DO SOMETHING WITHOUT PEOPLE SCREAMING THAT I HAVE NO RIGHT TO DO IT OR IMPOSING THEIR STUPID OPINION ON ME?

 

Seriously...

Jrhairychest and Erewhon2 thinks you have no opinion, just because you are semi-retired. Either that, or they do it for lulz.

 

If that is the case, then why don't they say that to just about everybody who does not play Runescape anymore?

 

Speaking of which, the main reason of why people quit is because of so much updates. Many people whine about how easy the game became, and how awful the game will be in the future. Why can't those people learn to appreciate the game as it is, instead of ranting and ranting pointlessly in the RSOF rants?

 

You're missing the point. I've no objection to people airing their views if they are actually know what they're talking about, or are at least in a position to talk about such things. To play a little runescape, gain low ranks in a few skills then place objections to things hardly warrants confidence in the player knows what he is talking about. Retirement after a few low skills? Sorry I thought players retired after at least giving the game a thorough chance to see it through to be able to demonstrate some sort of knowledge and experience to know what they are talking about.

 

Quit acting like your big stats are a big deal.

 

Will you just shut the hell up being judgmental and trying to impose your idiotic opinion that anyone who has low stats has no right to retire or post on the forums. Stop thinking that you have more rights than someone else just because of your damned stats in a game. I have as much right as you to post here, and you have absolutely no right to comment that I have no right to post here.

 

Sorry that you have a severely exaggerated opinion on what a "thorough chance" is. Go try the F2P version of the game without using any single one member item/skill then. You'll see how fast you'll get bored and want to retire. I've already done just about everything worth doing in F2P. All the quests, skills up to a certain point where it gets boring and the rewards suck.

Well saying that your 'rants' don't hold weight because it appears your experience of the game is limited is just an opinion, same as you saying you have the right to post. No one is saying you can't post, certainly I haven't. But I question your ongoing interest in talking about RS as you hate the game.....I mean, what purpose does it serve?

This is way off topic, but I think there is an interesting debate here, I think I'll put it up as a topic in its own right :thumbsup:

 

The game itself is boring (for F2P at least), but I find debating/arguing about it interesting. Nothing wrong with that, right?

 

I don't care whether my rants hold weight or not or whether you care about them or not. I'm just freely expressing my opinion. So tell that very good friend of yours to quit trying to discourage me from posting on the TIF.

[meili]

Too true, just too true. Jagex made skills way too easy with notes and x-options they keep on "babying" players making everything easier and easier. I especially agree with point about the ecto. That's just going too far, IMO. Same with the wilderness ditch.

[Youmu]

You're missing the point. I've no objection to people airing their views if they are actually know what they're talking about, or are at least in a position to talk about such things. To play a little runescape, gain low ranks in a few skills then place objections to things hardly warrants confidence in the player knows what he is talking about. Retirement after a few low skills? Sorry I thought players retired after at least giving the game a thorough chance to see it through to be able to demonstrate some sort of knowledge and experience to know what they are talking about.

Theory does not hold true.

 

Look at my crap stats. However, I do know a lot about the F2P Runescape world. You're basically saying everyone who is low-leveled don't know much about the game.

 

Quelmotz may have retired early, yet he does have a pretty good understanding about the F2P combat triangle. I've read his two rants, and he does being up some valid points.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Look at my crap stats. However, I do know a lot about the F2P Runescape world. You're basically saying everyone who is low-leveled don't know much about the game.

 

Quelmotz may have retired early, yet he does have a pretty good understanding about the F2P combat triangle. I've read his two rants, and he does being up some valid points.

 

If your stats are so crap, what do you do in RS? Just because you yourself are F2P you're giving yourself excuses for what you yourself describe as crap stats.

I meet a lot of players who talk a good game about things they know very little about, usually because they're concerned about talking about things instead of doing them. And yes, higher levels = experience = greater wealth of knowledge.

 

Give me an F2Per any day with some half decent stats who talks about something they know about and I'm usually the one who tends to agree with them. This has not been about F2P its been about peoples experience within the game in order to know what they are talking about. Sadly Quel demonstrates he does great tantrums on the forums instead of sharing his wisdom.

[AlexRose]

And yes, higher levels = experience = greater wealth of knowledge.

 

Statisically, you are correct; a high level would be more likely have a far greater understanding of the game than a low one. However, that does not always hold true, and must therefore be assessed on a discussion to discussion basis. So for the purposes of discussion, everyone should simply ignore levels and instead refute arguments on the basis of whether they're actually right or wrong. If you are a high level, then by all means use evidence from your experiences to support your points, but do not make a player's level a valid supporting argument.

 

usually because they're concerned about talking about things instead of doing them

 

Again, that doesn't mean that they have no knowledge or right to discuss updates they are unable to use. I am nowhere near using the Extreme Potions, and yet I am still able to comment and debate on Jagex's decision to remove them from PvP.

 

 

This goes for everyone. Stop talking about your levels and begin discussing the actual debate topic.

[quelmotz]

Thanks for defending me and understanding why I'm so frustrated with this braggart who apparently feels he has a greater right than other players on a forum because he has higher stats in the game.

 

Statistics...they make life so much easier...and make it so much more difficult at the same time. Assumptions, stereotyping, overly high expectations all stem from statistics.

 

-----

 

What were we discussing about again?

[Guest jrhairychest]

And yes, higher levels = experience = greater wealth of knowledge.

Statisically, you are correct; a high level would be more likely have a far greater understanding of the game than a low one. However, that does not always hold true, and must therefore be assessed on a discussion to discussion basis. So for the purposes of discussion, everyone should simply ignore levels and instead refute arguments on the basis of whether they're actually right or wrong. If you are a high level, then by all means use evidence from your experiences to support your points, but do not make a player's level a valid supporting argument.

The anomolies you talk about are minimal. In the bulk of cases a player would have greater knowledge at greater levels. I'm quite happy for people to make points providing they've had enough gaming experience to know what they are talking about. I myself cannot take part in debates that involve parts of the game simply because I have no experience of them. I understand this as I wouldn't have a clue and I'm not ignorant enough to think I should.

 

usually because they're concerned about talking about things instead of doing them

 

Again, that doesn't mean that they have no knowledge or right to discuss updates they are unable to use. I am nowhere near using the Extreme Potions, and yet I am still able to comment and debate on Jagex's decision to remove them from PvP.

Theres discussion, then theres talking about things you don't know about as if you know about them then getting angry when someone questions your knowledge about it.

 

This goes for everyone. Stop talking about your levels and begin discussing the actual debate topic.

We were. Read through the post.

[quelmotz]

 

usually because they're concerned about talking about things instead of doing them

 

Again, that doesn't mean that they have no knowledge or right to discuss updates they are unable to use. I am nowhere near using the Extreme Potions, and yet I am still able to comment and debate on Jagex's decision to remove them from PvP.

Theres discussion, then theres talking about things you don't know about as if you know about them then getting angry when someone questions your knowledge about it. There's discussion, then there's someone jumping in and flaunting his big stats, and trying to insult others who are apparently inferior to him just because he has bigger stats.

 

This goes for everyone. Stop talking about your levels and begin discussing the actual debate topic.

We were. Read through the post. Do you think he's blind or what? Your post wasn't even in the least related to the topic. Go ahead and call me a hypocrite.

[Troacctid]

Why are you guys even discussing this? I've been raising all these definitions and contentions throughout the thread that nobody has bothered to even try and refute, and you've let a troll sidetrack you into discussing why low-level players have no idea what they're talking about? Even after creating an entirely new separate thread for it?

 

If you disliked both skills then how come you have 82 firemaking and 73 herblore?

I've no objection to people airing their views if they are actually know what they're talking about, or are at least in a position to talk about such things. To play a little runescape, gain low ranks in a few skills then place objections to things hardly warrants confidence in the player knows what he is talking about. Retirement after a few low skills? Sorry I thought players retired after at least giving the game a thorough chance to see it through to be able to demonstrate some sort of knowledge and experience to know what they are talking about.

So. Let me get this straight. My argument doesn't count because I have high levels. Quelmotz's argument doesn't count because he has low levels. Did I get that?

[Guest jrhairychest]

Why are you guys even discussing this? I've been raising all these definitions and contentions throughout the thread that nobody has bothered to even try and refute, and you've let a troll sidetrack you into discussing why low-level players have no idea what they're talking about? Even after creating an entirely new separate thread for it?

Lets not start with the troll comments again. You do a pretty good job of this type of thing yourself, for which I pulled you up on but you blatantly ignored. I'll still answer points if people sidetrack so have a go at them for doing it and not continue your little obsession with me.

 

If you disliked both skills then how come you have 82 firemaking and 73 herblore?

I've no objection to people airing their views if they are actually know what they're talking about, or are at least in a position to talk about such things. To play a little runescape, gain low ranks in a few skills then place objections to things hardly warrants confidence in the player knows what he is talking about. Retirement after a few low skills? Sorry I thought players retired after at least giving the game a thorough chance to see it through to be able to demonstrate some sort of knowledge and experience to know what they are talking about.

So. Let me get this straight. My argument doesn't count because I have high levels. Quelmotz's argument doesn't count because he has low levels. Did I get that?

Who said your opinion didn't count? As I remember you went for the easier 99's and I pointed that out, even though you said the game was easy in the first place. I even gave you stats. You seemed to get a little rattled about it as usual.

 

Quel talks about things he doesn't have a clue about. He's got no experience of what he talks about which is why he despises the types of things you like i.e. your capes and high skills (calls us no lifers remember). Defend him by all means but when he has a go about things like capes and skills (see his posts) he's having a pop at you just as much as me.

[Troacctid]

Why are you guys even discussing this? I've been raising all these definitions and contentions throughout the thread that nobody has bothered to even try and refute, and you've let a troll sidetrack you into discussing why low-level players have no idea what they're talking about? Even after creating an entirely new separate thread for it?

Lets not start with the troll comments again. You do a pretty good job of this type of thing yourself, for which I pulled you up on but you blatantly ignored. I'll still answer points if people sidetrack so have a go at them for doing it and not continue your little obsession with me.

I'm not going to engage you until you're ready to debate legitimately. I gave you the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of the thread, and your posts quickly deteriorated into ad hominem nonsense (like this one I'm quoting) and blatant non sequiturs.

[AlexRose]

Why are you guys even discussing this? I've been raising all these definitions and contentions throughout the thread that nobody has bothered to even try and refute, and you've let a troll sidetrack you into discussing why low-level players have no idea what they're talking about? Even after creating an entirely new separate thread for it?

 

 

 

Could you bring them up again please? I can't even follow where this thread went. >.>

[Troacctid]

Sure, no problem. Here's the main ones, although there's more on the first couple pages and I also responded to Erewhon's more recent post earlier.

 

What is "easy"? It's not as if any of the skills require any sort of prowess to train to high levels--getting to 99 is solely a matter of grinding.

 

Difficulty doesn't come from forcing players to make extra clicks or play for extra hours. If you want a game that requires skill, go play FunOrb, and let's see how well you do in Geoblox, Vertigo 2, and Pixelate. Skill in Runescape comes from thinking economically about the most efficient ways to earn money and train each skill--in other words, time management.

 

Skills are mostly grinding-based, and updates that make skills, as you say, "easier," are primarily aimed at taking the grinding out of grinding. There are actually two main categories of update that have this impact, those being interface improvements like cook-x, and totally new training methods like minigames.

 

The first type is hardly something you can resent Jagex updating. A good interface is integral to a good game. Remember how you put in a new offer when the Grand Exchange first came out? If you wanted to buy something, you had to click on the box you wanted to use, click the box to say you wanted to buy something rather than sell, and then click the magnifying glass to begin your search. Thanks to an update, all three steps have been condensed into one click. That sort of streamlining is nearly always an improvement.

 

But what I really want to talk about is the second type of update.

 

Allow me to use Smoking Kills's slayer update as an example of the second type, arguably the most successful update in this category. Sure, it makes the skill easier, but it does so by providing rewards for completing consecutive slayer tasks in a manner that definitely makes the skill more fun to train, and introduces additional layers of decisions. Should I get a task from Mazchna and finish more quickly to get faster points, or should I go straight for Duradel tasks for better xp and drops? Should I cancel my so-so task for 30 points and miss out on some rewards? Do I go straight for the slayer helm or do I block my least favorite tasks, or do I go for the slayer rings? When I buy my slayer helm, do I want to leave some points left over to cancel tasks, just in case? If I get a steel dragon task and I'm low on points, is it worth Burthorping and losing my streak, or should I slog through it?

 

As you can see, while on the surface the skill gets faster and easier, it also gets much deeper, giving a thoughtful player a better opportunity to take advantage of the new features than a less-experienced player. The additional incentives also add fun to the skill by creating subgoals and giving payoffs that are independent of the leveling itself, and by allowing players to more easily skip tasks that they personally dislike.

 

I'll grant that the process of making a skill more fun can easily backfire if the developers don't bother to balance it properly--I think we saw this with Pyramid Plunder's super-fast experience rates, and I agree that aspect of the minigame was definitely overdone. But if you look at more modern examples of new training methods like Stealing Creation or the Runecrafting Guild, you have more balanced xp rates, as well as some added tension of where you want to use your rewards. Or the Distractions and Diversions thing, which is pretty much exactly what it says on the tin--little daily or weekly things that are supplementary at best.

 

On the whole, the more training methods you have to choose from, the more you need to think about which method you want to choose. As a result, while training gets faster, it's not necessarily getting easier. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

I want to make this clear. An update only makes the game "easier" if it reduces the advantage a skilled player has over a less-skilled player. And I'm going to go back to my example of Smoking Kills and the slayer points update. As I said originally, while on the surface it appears to make things easier, it actually opens up many new layers of decisions and choices that allow the savvy slayer to experience a greater efficiency boost than a random newb:

 

"Should I get a task from Mazchna and finish more quickly to get faster points, or should I go straight for Duradel tasks for better xp and drops? Should I cancel my so-so task for 30 points and miss out on some rewards? Do I go straight for the slayer helm or do I block my least favorite tasks, or do I go for the slayer rings? When I buy my slayer helm, do I want to leave some points left over to cancel tasks, just in case? If I get a steel dragon task and I'm low on points, is it worth Burthorping and losing my streak, or should I slog through it?"

 

So once again, faster and easier are not the same thing.

 

Please, if you think there's a problem with my definition, then point it out and offer a better definition, because there's little to debate unless key terms are properly defined.

[walka92]

I personally liked it better when the GE wasn't around, simply because the fact that it is too easily exploited. Look at pray pots and sup restores right now :ohnoes:

 

 

 

People will always exploit anything for their own advantage....human nature. Personally I like the changing market values, makes it more interesting, and I'm exploiting the rising prices of prayer pots to the hilt!

 

 

 

However, things that make the game more convenient, aka you latter examples, are fine with me. They don't neccessarily make the game "easier", I just didn't like it when i had to bank all my crops after every 2 patches, or if i forgot to fill my ectophial and was already at castle wars :wall: .

 

 

 

As for making the game 'more convenient' I think you better go to the dictionary, the definition is "ease in use", therefore easier! You are clearly saying you found it annoying or didn't like it, it was part of the game. But no.....you too wanted it easier. #-o

 

 

 

As for cooked lobs less than raw, i guess it doesn't make any sense, but that's how the game goes. O well :|

 

 

 

 

 

As for Swampjedi....I don't understand your point, WOW is an entirely different game, with no relevance, similarity or links to RS. Are you saying that the game should or shouldn't be easier or more convenient? Do you think Jagex have gone too far?, what is next....sending the butler out to collect all construction material? Mining 3 or 4 ores at a time? Being able to cook from noted lobbies? :shame:

yes they may be different games, but that doesnt mean that they cant learn from eachother.

[Erewhon2]

Too true, just too true. Jagex made skills way too easy with notes and x-options they keep on "babying" players making everything easier and easier. I especially agree with point about the ecto. That's just going too far, IMO. Same with the wilderness ditch.

 

I forgot about the wilderness ditch! Good point, there was a number of times I nearly made a mess of going to far north...lol, especially when the Wildy was PvP, in fact I did get killed a couple of times then. There are some updates that I like, particularly when they allow for more variety, like the smoking kills quest, I really like the variety now included in doing Slayer, and for the benefit of troacctid.....that update gave that all important variety rather than making things generally and unecessarily easier, as in the points that meili made, or the examples given earlier in this thread.

 

yes they may be different games, but that doesnt mean that they cant learn from eachother.

 

I don't have a problem with games learning from each other, but comparing the way in which the game is updated and managed is difficult, if not impossible to compare between these 2 particular games, they also have enirely different objectives, as well as the actual gameplay.

[Guest jrhairychest]

I'm not going to engage you until you're ready to debate legitimately. I gave you the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of the thread, and your posts quickly deteriorated into ad hominem nonsense (like this one I'm quoting) and blatant non sequiturs.

 

If my ad hominem nonsense is for you to say the game is easy, yet I point out you went for the easiest skills then guilty as charged. We were very much on topic but you got a little annoyed with me pointing out these facts and didn't want to discuss it any further. The 'benefit of the doubt thing' is also tosh, as you've been a little obsessed with me through various posts (I don't mind, makes me feel good that guys want me as well as women :wink:) . I'll be honest, you like to think you know what you're talking about but as soon as its disagreed with and a few facts pointed out you didn't want to know. Its called arrogance. You don't want to debate, then fine, find a debate where there are no dissenters and no holes in your armoury either.

[AlexRose]

What is "easy"? It's not as if any of the skills require any sort of prowess to train to high levels--getting to 99 is solely a matter of grinding.

 

Difficulty doesn't come from forcing players to make extra clicks or play for extra hours. If you want a game that requires skill, go play FunOrb, and let's see how well you do in Geoblox, Vertigo 2, and Pixelate. Skill in Runescape comes from thinking economically about the most efficient ways to earn money and train each skill--in other words, time management.

 

I want to make this clear. An update only makes the game "easier" if it reduces the advantage a time efficent player has over a less-time efficent player. And I'm going to go back to my example of Smoking Kills and the slayer points update. As I said originally, while on the surface it appears to make things easier, it actually opens up many new layers of decisions and choices that allow the savvy slayer to experience a greater efficiency boost than a random newb

 

Bolded to remind myself on your definition of skilled, mainly because I fell into a definition trap and wrote two paragraphs defining skilled as the person with the previous higher total level before I realized what you were actually adressing.

 

So by your definition, the more "skilled" player is the one who is more efficent with his/her time, and that by adding complexity, the game becomes "harder", correct? And because efficency is a dervived from a comparison of other player's efficency, then making 99 Herblore take twenty minutes and 30k cash would technically not make the game more difficult, so long as a clever and thoughtful player could get 99 Herblore in ten minutes and 10k cash. However, this would drastically slash the effiency of players who spent, say 300 million GP, on formerly getting Herblore, would make it easier for other people to match the cut effiency of the 99 Herblorists, and would thus make the game "easier" Furthermore, we are assuming the goal of Runescape is to be more efficent than everyone else. While that might be a valid definition for grand part of Runescape, possibly even a majority, there are other goals as well. We could define 99 Herblore itself to be a goal, and cutting the time it takes to 20 minutes would make the goal "easier".

[quelmotz]

Sure, no problem. Here's the main ones, although there's more on the first couple pages and I also responded to Erewhon's more recent post earlier.

 

What is "easy"? It's not as if any of the skills require any sort of prowess to train to high levels--getting to 99 is solely a matter of grinding.

 

Difficulty doesn't come from forcing players to make extra clicks or play for extra hours. If you want a game that requires skill, go play FunOrb, and let's see how well you do in Geoblox, Vertigo 2, and Pixelate. Skill in Runescape comes from thinking economically about the most efficient ways to earn money and train each skill--in other words, time management.

 

Skills are mostly grinding-based, and updates that make skills, as you say, "easier," are primarily aimed at taking the grinding out of grinding. There are actually two main categories of update that have this impact, those being interface improvements like cook-x, and totally new training methods like minigames.

 

The first type is hardly something you can resent Jagex updating. A good interface is integral to a good game. Remember how you put in a new offer when the Grand Exchange first came out? If you wanted to buy something, you had to click on the box you wanted to use, click the box to say you wanted to buy something rather than sell, and then click the magnifying glass to begin your search. Thanks to an update, all three steps have been condensed into one click. That sort of streamlining is nearly always an improvement.

 

But what I really want to talk about is the second type of update.

 

Allow me to use Smoking Kills's slayer update as an example of the second type, arguably the most successful update in this category. Sure, it makes the skill easier, but it does so by providing rewards for completing consecutive slayer tasks in a manner that definitely makes the skill more fun to train, and introduces additional layers of decisions. Should I get a task from Mazchna and finish more quickly to get faster points, or should I go straight for Duradel tasks for better xp and drops? Should I cancel my so-so task for 30 points and miss out on some rewards? Do I go straight for the slayer helm or do I block my least favorite tasks, or do I go for the slayer rings? When I buy my slayer helm, do I want to leave some points left over to cancel tasks, just in case? If I get a steel dragon task and I'm low on points, is it worth Burthorping and losing my streak, or should I slog through it?

 

As you can see, while on the surface the skill gets faster and easier, it also gets much deeper, giving a thoughtful player a better opportunity to take advantage of the new features than a less-experienced player. The additional incentives also add fun to the skill by creating subgoals and giving payoffs that are independent of the leveling itself, and by allowing players to more easily skip tasks that they personally dislike.

 

I'll grant that the process of making a skill more fun can easily backfire if the developers don't bother to balance it properly--I think we saw this with Pyramid Plunder's super-fast experience rates, and I agree that aspect of the minigame was definitely overdone. But if you look at more modern examples of new training methods like Stealing Creation or the Runecrafting Guild, you have more balanced xp rates, as well as some added tension of where you want to use your rewards. Or the Distractions and Diversions thing, which is pretty much exactly what it says on the tin--little daily or weekly things that are supplementary at best.

 

On the whole, the more training methods you have to choose from, the more you need to think about which method you want to choose. As a result, while training gets faster, it's not necessarily getting easier. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

I want to make this clear. An update only makes the game "easier" if it reduces the advantage a skilled player has over a less-skilled player. And I'm going to go back to my example of Smoking Kills and the slayer points update. As I said originally, while on the surface it appears to make things easier, it actually opens up many new layers of decisions and choices that allow the savvy slayer to experience a greater efficiency boost than a random newb:

 

"Should I get a task from Mazchna and finish more quickly to get faster points, or should I go straight for Duradel tasks for better xp and drops? Should I cancel my so-so task for 30 points and miss out on some rewards? Do I go straight for the slayer helm or do I block my least favorite tasks, or do I go for the slayer rings? When I buy my slayer helm, do I want to leave some points left over to cancel tasks, just in case? If I get a steel dragon task and I'm low on points, is it worth Burthorping and losing my streak, or should I slog through it?"

 

So once again, faster and easier are not the same thing.

 

Please, if you think there's a problem with my definition, then point it out and offer a better definition, because there's little to debate unless key terms are properly defined.

 

I fully agree. That was what I was trying to say but apparently jrhairychest was too obsessed with the fact that I had much lower stats than him and therefore I was unqualified from airing my views openly, and ignored my points instead going for the fact that my stats were too low for me to make a proper statement without making a fool of myself.

 

I was saying the game will always become more convenient and "easier". In this case my "easy" and "convenient" mean "faster". I gave clear examples proving this, like the Grand Exchange and the Rest feature, which definitely made the game faster and smoother, but not "easier" as in requiring less skill.

 

Just because a merchant now has better "tools" to help him merchant, doesn't mean it completely removes the "skill" in the game. He still has to predict the fluctuation of the prices of items he is merchanting, and decide when to buy and sell or he will lose money/make no profit/make less profit.

 

Just because there is a feature like Rest, making the game faster and smoother so there is no need to continuously walk around at snail's pace, doesn't mean the game is easier. Does Rest make training mining for example easier? I would like to see data on how long it takes to run and walk all the way to the bank compared to how long it takes to run until 0%, rest until 100% and run, ad infinitum. Even if rest does significantly reduce the time it takes for a miner to bank his ores, all it really does is make the training of mining less tedious, and not requiring less skill.

[Guest jrhairychest]

 

Bolded to remind myself on your definition of skilled, mainly because I fell into a definition trap and wrote two paragraphs defining skilled as the person with the previous higher total level before I realized what you were actually adressing.

 

So by your definition, the more "skilled" player is the one who is more efficent with his/her time, and that by adding complexity, the game becomes "harder", correct? And because efficency is a dervived from a comparison of other player's efficency, then making 99 Herblore take twenty minutes and 30k cash would technically not make the game more difficult, so long as a clever and thoughtful player could get 99 Herblore in ten minutes and 10k cash. However, this would drastically slash the effiency of players who spent, say 300 million GP, on formerly getting Herblore, would make it easier for other people to match the cut effiency of the 99 Herblorists, and would thus make the game "easier" Furthermore, we are assuming the goal of Runescape is to be more efficent than everyone else. While that might be a valid definition for grand part of Runescape, possibly even a majority, there are other goals as well. We could define 99 Herblore itself to be a goal, and cutting the time it takes to 20 minutes would make the goal "easier".

 

Theres a difference between time efficiency and wanting things faster done by the game. A player who works out the more efficient methods of gameplay can be justfied as being more skilled. However, a player wanting updates to save them having to do more work by clicking less, saving themselves their run, or wanting noted produce via the farming update just devalues things completely. I expect some players will want all their ore noted when mining it, a 99 purchased for 2gp, a sword that hits 200 no matter what your levels and more skills that we can do while we watch tv.