How Easy Do You Want It?

[Troacctid]

So by your definition, the more "skilled" player is the one who is more efficent with his/her time, and that by adding complexity, the game becomes "harder", correct? And because efficency is a dervived from a comparison of other player's efficency, then making 99 Herblore take twenty minutes and 30k cash would technically not make the game more difficult, so long as a clever and thoughtful player could get 99 Herblore in ten minutes and 10k cash. However, this would drastically slash the effiency of players who spent, say 300 million GP, on formerly getting Herblore, would make it easier for other people to match the cut effiency of the 99 Herblorists, and would thus make the game "easier" Furthermore, we are assuming the goal of Runescape is to be more efficent than everyone else. While that might be a valid definition for grand part of Runescape, possibly even a majority, there are other goals as well. We could define 99 Herblore itself to be a goal, and cutting the time it takes to 20 minutes would make the goal "easier".

1. Yes, adding complexity typically adds to difficulty. The inverse is also true--removing complexity typically reduces difficulty.

 

2. Making 99 herblore take 20 minutes and 30k would get you banned pretty quickly for bug abuse, but assuming hypothetically that such an atrocious update came about legitimately, it would essentially erase the herblore skill and replace it with a quest on par in difficulty with something like All Fired Up, only with better rewards. Basically, it would be incomparable.

 

3. I would hesitate to evaluate the efficiency of a player; rather, efficiency is a term used (in this context anyway) to describe an activity. Players themselves are not efficient, but they can do things that are efficient. So it's not really possible to "slash the efficiency of players who spent 300m and got 99 herblore," although it would indeed slash the efficiency of spending that 300m if you were to do it again.

 

4. The goal of Runescape is not to be more efficient than everybody else. The goal of Runescape is to enjoy oneself, as it is, after all, a game. Different people will derive enjoyment in different ways. (Mark Rosewater might liken it to a spectrum of Timmy and Spike; his article about what motivates people to play a game is focused on Magic: the Gathering, but except for the "Johnny" type--which is fairly specific to CCGs--it applies to just about any other multiplayer game, and it's a good read if you're interested.) Anyway, faulty assumption.

 

I think your point is that the faster =/= easier idea breaks down at extremes? That's debatable, but just discussing it gives implied plausibility to the idea that such extremes as "99 in 20 minutes" could exist in the game, which is a fallacious slippery slope.

[swampjedi]

Great point on 4, Troacctid. The problem is, Jagex has to aim for the middle when it comes to fun. This, sadly, is where I think the current game fails (at the top of most skills, at least). Is grinding to 99 RC fun? No, not for most people.

 

My assumptions:

People only pay for RS as long as it is fun.

Jagex wants people to pay for RS.

There comes a point at which obtaining high-level skills are not fun, for most players.

Making high-level rewards either a) more rewarding or B) more fun/less tedious to obtain increases the fun factor.

Some players (likely the ones that GOT the high levels even when it wasn't fun) find a and b above offensive.

 

Therefore:

Jagex increases profits by making the game more fun

Jagex can make the game more fun (to most players) by making high-level rewards more obtainable

 

I submit that the profit lost by "anti-easy" players leaving is more than offset by the profit gained by the average player paying for members longer.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Great point on 4, Troacctid. The problem is, Jagex has to aim for the middle when it comes to fun. This, sadly, is where I think the current game fails (at the top of most skills, at least). Is grinding to 99 RC fun? No, not for most people.

 

My assumptions:

People only pay for RS as long as it is fun.

Jagex wants people to pay for RS.

There comes a point at which obtaining high-level skills are not fun, for most players.

Making high-level rewards either a) more rewarding or B) more fun/less tedious to obtain increases the fun factor.

Some players (likely the ones that GOT the high levels even when it wasn't fun) find a and b above offensive.

 

Therefore:

Jagex increases profits by making the game more fun

Jagex can make the game more fun (to most players) by making high-level rewards more obtainable

 

I submit that the profit lost by "anti-easy" players leaving is more than offset by the profit gained by the average player paying for members longer.

 

Actually that's quite a decent post. On the one hand I see your point but it doesn't quite read right. The trouble is there are plenty of high level players in the game who still play, so if they didn't find it fun they wouldn't play. They'd just do something else. I really don't buy into the argument of 'thats boring but I'll do it anyway'. No matter how much they moan players get fun out of it. The fun also lessens when you have players who 'Just have to get 99' so will try to take the quickest way possible without thought. They get bored/frustrated and cry that its hard.

 

You have plenty of 99's and I really don't think that you got them under torture. You did it because you enjoyed playing and doing it, the end result the achievement. Fun is no problem, but not when it comes at the expense of a degree of difficulty. That could be cost (boo hiss!!!) or the amount of time investment.

 

I'm not against things that are fun to do at all. If you read the initial parts of this post you'd see that according to some players the game will get easier because 'its inevitable', and thats wrong.

[swampjedi]

I did push for some 99s past the point of fun. I remember getting so frustrated at Pyramid Plunder that I had to make myself do so many runs a night.

 

But, you have a point. Perhaps I did enjoy it.

 

Let me give an example of an update that (IMO) made things easier, but also made them more fun - Living Rock Caverns. Mining went from being my least favorite by far to being fun, to me. Sure, it's not the fastest, but it's great for what it is.

 

I'm rather questionable on calling any skill in RS hard. It's tedious, is all. Now, non-skilling things like bosses and quests (without guides) do stretch you - they require cunning, planning, and (bosses) coordinating a team. But RC? That's just clicking over and over. I can almost do astral runs in my sleep now. :-)

 

I am all for adding difficulty, as long as it is meaningful. Some of the most fun I've had in games was (casual) raiding in WoW, where we had to be smart to make it (and still usually failed).

[Troacctid]

Great point on 4, Troacctid. The problem is, Jagex has to aim for the middle when it comes to fun. This, sadly, is where I think the current game fails (at the top of most skills, at least). Is grinding to 99 RC fun? No, not for most people.

 

My assumptions:

People only pay for RS as long as it is fun.

Jagex wants people to pay for RS.

There comes a point at which obtaining high-level skills are not fun, for most players.

Making high-level rewards either a) more rewarding or B) more fun/less tedious to obtain increases the fun factor.

Some players (likely the ones that GOT the high levels even when it wasn't fun) find a and b above offensive.

 

Therefore:

Jagex increases profits by making the game more fun

Jagex can make the game more fun (to most players) by making high-level rewards more obtainable

 

I submit that the profit lost by "anti-easy" players leaving is more than offset by the profit gained by the average player paying for members longer.

Hey, wow, there's a Mark Rosewater article about that, too. Haha.

 

Dear Mark Rosewater,

 

Regarding your article "Ability Word To Your Mother":

 

I hate ability words because they hit the players over the head and say "Look, you idiot! There's a pattern here!". And while apparently most of your players aren't all that good at pattern recognition (and you probably do enough market research to know how smart your audience is), I still find it insulting. (Kind of like reminder text, although on new keywords or one-off cards like Time Stop it's okay.)

-Jeffrey

 

Jeffrey,

 

I'll be blunt. When we have to decide between making sure players understand what cards do and insulting those who already get it, there isn't much of choice. Err to one side and we lose players who aren't able to get into the game and probably never will return. Err on the other and we get grumbly players who keep playing but occasionally send me letters like yours. I'll gladly take the grumbly letters if it means we get more people into the game. In short, I apologize if you feel insulted, but it's for what I feel is a greater cause.

 

There's a key difference that's missed here, though, and that's the fact that high-level players care more about updates in general. Why? Because they've more or less exhausted a greater portion of the game's existing content already. Low-level players don't care about new quests because they already have a list of a good hundred existing quests they haven't done yet. It's the high-level players who most enjoy the constant stream of changes to the game. Because of this, it makes sense for Jagex to aim the bulk of new content at that demographic.

[quelmotz]

Great point on 4, Troacctid. The problem is, Jagex has to aim for the middle when it comes to fun. This, sadly, is where I think the current game fails (at the top of most skills, at least). Is grinding to 99 RC fun? No, not for most people.

 

My assumptions:

People only pay for RS as long as it is fun.

Jagex wants people to pay for RS.

There comes a point at which obtaining high-level skills are not fun, for most players.

Making high-level rewards either a) more rewarding or B) more fun/less tedious to obtain increases the fun factor.

Some players (likely the ones that GOT the high levels even when it wasn't fun) find a and b above offensive.

 

Therefore:

Jagex increases profits by making the game more fun

Jagex can make the game more fun (to most players) by making high-level rewards more obtainable

 

I submit that the profit lost by "anti-easy" players leaving is more than offset by the profit gained by the average player paying for members longer.

 

Actually that's quite a decent post. On the one hand I see your point but it doesn't quite read right. The trouble is there are plenty of high level players in the game who still play, so if they didn't find it fun they wouldn't play. They'd just do something else. I really don't buy into the argument of 'thats boring but I'll do it anyway'. No matter how much they moan players get fun out of it. The fun also lessens when you have players who 'Just have to get 99' so will try to take the quickest way possible without thought. They get bored/frustrated and cry that its hard.

 

You have plenty of 99's and I really don't think that you got them under torture. You did it because you enjoyed playing and doing it, the end result the achievement. Fun is no problem, but not when it comes at the expense of a degree of difficulty. That could be cost (boo hiss!!!) or the amount of time investment.

 

I'm not against things that are fun to do at all. If you read the initial parts of this post you'd see that according to some players the game will get easier because 'its inevitable', and thats wrong.

 

Oh really?

 

I've cited plenty of examples where the game was made what Troacctid termed as "faster". I just used the word "easier" as the definitions of "easy" weren't even stated then. If troacctid had put his post in front the term "faster" would have been what I used.

 

I said the game would become "more convenient" and "easier". In this case these terms refer to "faster".

 

I'm not saying it's inevitable that the game would become "easier" AS IN requiring less skill. I'm saying it would become "easier" as in faster and more convenient to train.

 

I was never against reducing the "skill" required to play the game. But you'll have to classify all those so-called "baby" updates according to whether they made the game easier or not. I believe they didn't make the game require less so-called "skill", as they just made it more "convenient" or whatever you call it by preventing players from getting scammed/lured. You didn't need "skill" to avoid getting scammed. You need common sense.

 

And we also have to define the word "skill". Is it intellect? Persistence? Resistance to tedium? How good you are at the game? IMO skill is how good you are at the game, not meaning stats/monetary possessions. As in how effecient you train. But it's a very unclear line in RuneScape. I think in games in FunOrb, skill basically refers more-or-less to your rating, which directly reflects how many games you've won and by how much. As there's no real "winning" in RuneScape, "skill" is harder to define.

[Erewhon2]

I know that you have twice now tried to say that what you meant all along was you wanted skills to be faster....but that equates to 'easier' in this context, not sure what you mean by 'smoother'. Having said that, it is clear from your posts that you did mean easier, please see these excerpts....

 

Just because you got your 99s or whatever stats the "old" way, you hate any new, easier ways to do things? And it's not like making the things SO easy until you just have to click a few times to get 99. You still have to be quite dedicated.

 

I'm saying just because you got your crappy stats the "old" and "harder" way, you have to be selfish and prevent a large proportion of the newer population from getting something the easier way?

 

Things like weapons and items don't make the game THAT much easier. What you're saying is really too extreme and you're making it sound like the end of the world because there's an easier way to do things. I can't comment on things like pyramid plunder since I've never tried them, but items and weapons don't "devalue" the game as much as you claim, definitely.

Its not about things being the end of the world, I expect progress and updates, look at the new spells and a number of updates for higher levels. No problem with them as you have to work your way to that level before you can use them, and it adds incentive. It has always been about variety and not making things 'easier' or 'faster'.

 

And by the way, I said it was BORING and TEDIOUS, not challenging. It's not exactly THAT difficult to play a computer game, but RuneScape IS far more tedious than most other MMORPGs.

 

The game will naturally become easier as change goes on. It doesn't matter how much easier, but it will definitely become easier.

 

I don't want it to become too easy, because as I said, the game will fail it's basic purpose as a game if it doesn't prove remotely challenging at all. I'm just saying the game will naturally become easier.

In case you missed the clear reference to 'easier' :rolleyes:

 

Playing an online game is really such a challenge. =D> Sure, it requires dedication to reach level 99, but HOW HARD can an online game be? You're just playing it for leisure and to relax. Now you're effectively praising the no-lifers and people who play on the computer hours. You're admiring, looking up to the computer game addicts. I could easily get level 99 by no-lifing 10 hours a day, but I don't want to.

 

The game will naturally become easier as change goes on. It doesn't matter how much easier, but it will definitely become easier. Nevertheless, it is quite easy to make sure the game doesn't become TOO easy. It will become easier, but by an almost negligible amount.

 

A new skill provides easier ways of getting money, some other conveniences.

 

A new item makes the game easier by making it easier to train, make something, etc etc.

 

But in the end, the game becomes easier no matter in what aspect. It WILL become easier, whether in training, rate of money gaining, etc etc.

I work full time and managed to achieve a 99, so am definitely not a 'no lifer' as you call us. I admire gamers who use their skills to make skill development interesting for themselves, it doesn't need to be as tedious as you portray. That only applies to those that are gunning for the fastest (and easiest) 99, just to get a cape, rather than enjoying the game for what it is. See the discussion thread on skill capes, notice that the firemaking and cooking capes etc, are often dismissed as having a 'low status' because they are the 'easiest' to get.

My opinion: The game wasn't more fun then. It was tedious and boring. Everything took longer than it should have taken in an online game. A game is about fun, not tedium and grinding skills. There's no way to revert back to the old game. Not that Jagex would do it EVEN IF there was a way to do it anyway, too many people would complain. Face it, the majority of people are lazy and they don't want to skill and grind and do other tedious stuff.

And it appears they can't even use their common sense to make the game more interesting for themselves, see my point above. RS is only tedious if you play it that way.

Yes, so what if the TOP F2P players only were asked to tour Jagex's company? Is it worth the effort for a tour? In my honest and frank opinion, NO.

 

I don't find raising stats fun. It's quite tedious and boring after getting past some point.

Yup....I'm getting the message, and you wonder why I question your interest in debating about RS?

 

I've cited plenty of examples where the game was made what Troacctid termed as "faster". I just used the word "easier" as the definitions of "easy" weren't even stated then. If troacctid had put his post in front the term "faster" would have been what I used.

 

I said the game would become "more convenient" and "easier". In this case these terms refer to "faster".

 

I'm not saying it's inevitable that the game would become "easier" AS IN requiring less skill. I'm saying it would become "easier" as in faster and more convenient to train.

 

I was never against reducing the "skill" required to play the game. But you'll have to classify all those so-called "baby" updates according to whether they made the game easier or not. I believe they didn't make the game require less so-called "skill", as they just made it more "convenient" or whatever you call it by preventing players from getting scammed/lured. You didn't need "skill" to avoid getting scammed. You need common sense.

 

And we also have to define the word "skill". Is it intellect? Persistence? Resistance to tedium? How good you are at the game? IMO skill is how good you are at the game, not meaning stats/monetary possessions. As in how effecient you train. But it's a very unclear line in RuneScape. I think in games in FunOrb, skill basically refers more-or-less to your rating, which directly reflects how many games you've won and by how much. As there's no real "winning" in RuneScape, "skill" is harder to define.

You cannot change the emphasis of what you have stated in this thread, it is very clear above. Also making reference to 'faster' in the context you are using amounts to 'easier' anyway.

As I stated, it is down to the individual to play the game the way that suits them best, maybe some just cannot be bothered to think through a game strategy or how to create fun, like yourself. But need to have 'fun' thrown at them, so they don't have to think at all, even though there is a huge game to be creative in. :huh:

[Guest jrhairychest]

I did push for some 99s past the point of fun. I remember getting so frustrated at Pyramid Plunder that I had to make myself do so many runs a night.

 

But, you have a point. Perhaps I did enjoy it.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Did you notice that things became unenjoyable in theiving when perhaps you looked at it the wrong way. You were looking for the fastest XP possible (presumption) and maybe lost sight of things, when you can always use alternatives. I think this is the problem with the game itself and its generally down to the players. Some want the fastest method to train til it burns them out or they grow to hate it, particularly to 99. Players lose sight of the fun element instead of playing the game and enjoying its challenges. Pyramid plunder may be fast and in my mind devalues the cape. I took an alternative method because it was fun and profitable and more suited towards me.

 

Let me give an example of an update that (IMO) made things easier, but also made them more fun - Living Rock Caverns. Mining went from being my least favorite by far to being fun, to me. Sure, it's not the fastest, but it's great for what it is.

No problems with alternatives as long as it doesn't cheapen skills. Not looked at the rock caverns so I can't comment on it.

 

I'm rather questionable on calling any skill in RS hard. It's tedious, is all. Now, non-skilling things like bosses and quests (without guides) do stretch you - they require cunning, planning, and (bosses) coordinating a team. But RC? That's just clicking over and over. I can almost do astral runs in my sleep now. :-)

No its not hard. I've explained in previous posts that the mettle is tested by sticking to tasks and putting in the time but I've also had other players telling me the same thing while either being totally unskilled or achieving 99 in the easier stuff.

 

I am all for adding difficulty, as long as it is meaningful. Some of the most fun I've had in games was (casual) raiding in WoW, where we had to be smart to make it (and still usually failed).

Absolutely. Erewhon2 put forward a decent suggestion regarding the combat system in an earlier post to make it a more 'thinking' combat system based on the weight you carry (slow or fast), the armour you wear(take the hits but more likely to miss as slower, whereas lighter armour moves faster but obviously more vulnerable). Its actually an interesting point and I'm all for things like that to spruce things up a bit. How practical it is to implement I'm not sure as it would bring its own complexities.

 

As I stated, it is down to the individual to play the game the way that suits them best, maybe some just cannot be bothered to think through a game strategy or how to create fun, like yourself. But need to have 'fun' thrown at them, so they don't have to think at all, even though there is a huge game to be creative in. :huh:

Says it all in a nutshell. I'll bet she smells nice too :XD:

[KingDallar]

I agree with you sir. RS is very easy compared with RS a few years back. I must admit that I like GE, but I hate how JAGEX automates everything because people who cry about their lack of endurance wants it changed to the easier. I agree with you

[quelmotz]

I know that you have twice now tried to say that what you meant all along was you wanted skills to be faster....but that equates to 'easier' in this context, not sure what you mean by 'smoother'. Having said that, it is clear from your posts that you did mean easier, please see these excerpts....

 

Just because you got your 99s or whatever stats the "old" way, you hate any new, easier ways to do things? And it's not like making the things SO easy until you just have to click a few times to get 99. You still have to be quite dedicated.

 

I'm saying just because you got your crappy stats the "old" and "harder" way, you have to be selfish and prevent a large proportion of the newer population from getting something the easier way?

 

Things like weapons and items don't make the game THAT much easier. What you're saying is really too extreme and you're making it sound like the end of the world because there's an easier way to do things. I can't comment on things like pyramid plunder since I've never tried them, but items and weapons don't "devalue" the game as much as you claim, definitely.

Its not about things being the end of the world, I expect progress and updates, look at the new spells and a number of updates for higher levels. No problem with them as you have to work your way to that level before you can use them, and it adds incentive. It has always been about variety and not making things 'easier' or 'faster'.

 

According to your opinion, easier = faster. According to mine, easier =/= faster. There's nothing wrong with having different opinions. And as I mentioned earlier, the use of the term "easier" was because the terms were not clearly defined.

 

And by the way, I said it was BORING and TEDIOUS, not challenging. It's not exactly THAT difficult to play a computer game, but RuneScape IS far more tedious than most other MMORPGs.

 

The game will naturally become easier as change goes on. It doesn't matter how much easier, but it will definitely become easier.

 

I don't want it to become too easy, because as I said, the game will fail it's basic purpose as a game if it doesn't prove remotely challenging at all. I'm just saying the game will naturally become easier.

In case you missed the clear reference to 'easier' :rolleyes: As I said, easier in this case = "faster". Why don't you define key terms properly earlier in the debate then?

 

Playing an online game is really such a challenge. =D> Sure, it requires dedication to reach level 99, but HOW HARD can an online game be? You're just playing it for leisure and to relax. Now you're effectively praising the no-lifers and people who play on the computer hours. You're admiring, looking up to the computer game addicts. I could easily get level 99 by no-lifing 10 hours a day, but I don't want to.

 

The game will naturally become easier as change goes on. It doesn't matter how much easier, but it will definitely become easier. Nevertheless, it is quite easy to make sure the game doesn't become TOO easy. It will become easier, but by an almost negligible amount.

 

A new skill provides easier ways of getting money, some other conveniences.

 

A new item makes the game easier by making it easier to train, make something, etc etc.

 

But in the end, the game becomes easier no matter in what aspect. It WILL become easier, whether in training, rate of money gaining, etc etc.

I work full time and managed to achieve a 99, so am definitely not a 'no lifer' as you call us. I admire gamers who use their skills to make skill development interesting for themselves, it doesn't need to be as tedious as you portray. That only applies to those that are gunning for the fastest (and easiest) 99, just to get a cape, rather than enjoying the game for what it is. See the discussion thread on skill capes, notice that the firemaking and cooking capes etc, are often dismissed as having a 'low status' because they are the 'easiest' to get.

You play P2P with plenty of interesting/more fun/faster ways of training. I play the lousy F2P version, with boring and slow ways of training. I happen to not want to fork out approximately SGD$9 per month, so don't flame me for not subscribing to membership.

 

"Easier" in this case refers to "faster". No doubt cooking and firemaking are "faster" to get. They are also "easy" as there are plenty of guides telling you how to do it, but the same goes for smithing, mining, etc, but they are "slow" skills to train - so a 99 in them is respected.

 

My opinion: The game wasn't more fun then. It was tedious and boring. Everything took longer than it should have taken in an online game. A game is about fun, not tedium and grinding skills. There's no way to revert back to the old game. Not that Jagex would do it EVEN IF there was a way to do it anyway, too many people would complain. Face it, the majority of people are lazy and they don't want to skill and grind and do other tedious stuff.

And it appears they can't even use their common sense to make the game more interesting for themselves, see my point above. RS is only tedious if you play it that way.

See my point above. I recommend you give the F2P version of the game a try before you flame me for not trying to find ways to make the game interesting.

 

Yes, so what if the TOP F2P players only were asked to tour Jagex's company? Is it worth the effort for a tour? In my honest and frank opinion, NO.

 

I don't find raising stats fun. It's quite tedious and boring after getting past some point.

Yup....I'm getting the message, and you wonder why I question your interest in debating about RS?

There's a difference between PLAYING RS and DEBATING about it. There's absolutely nothing wrong IMHO with debating about something you've quit playing.

 

I've cited plenty of examples where the game was made what Troacctid termed as "faster". I just used the word "easier" as the definitions of "easy" weren't even stated then. If troacctid had put his post in front the term "faster" would have been what I used.

 

I said the game would become "more convenient" and "easier". In this case these terms refer to "faster".

 

I'm not saying it's inevitable that the game would become "easier" AS IN requiring less skill. I'm saying it would become "easier" as in faster and more convenient to train.

 

I was never against reducing the "skill" required to play the game. But you'll have to classify all those so-called "baby" updates according to whether they made the game easier or not. I believe they didn't make the game require less so-called "skill", as they just made it more "convenient" or whatever you call it by preventing players from getting scammed/lured. You didn't need "skill" to avoid getting scammed. You need common sense.

 

And we also have to define the word "skill". Is it intellect? Persistence? Resistance to tedium? How good you are at the game? IMO skill is how good you are at the game, not meaning stats/monetary possessions. As in how effecient you train. But it's a very unclear line in RuneScape. I think in games in FunOrb, skill basically refers more-or-less to your rating, which directly reflects how many games you've won and by how much. As there's no real "winning" in RuneScape, "skill" is harder to define.

You cannot change the emphasis of what you have stated in this thread, it is very clear above. Also making reference to 'faster' in the context you are using amounts to 'easier' anyway.

As I stated, it is down to the individual to play the game the way that suits them best, maybe some just cannot be bothered to think through a game strategy or how to create fun, like yourself. But need to have 'fun' thrown at them, so they don't have to think at all, even though there is a huge game to be creative in. :huh:

"Faster" means less time used to do something. "Easier" means requiring less intelligence to find an effective method to train something. That's my definition.

 

"Huge game"? As I said, try F2P before you comment. What the majority might find interesting in F2P past some level in training can be counted by fingers. I'm not saying no one likes grinding smithing to 99 in F2P for example, but MOST people don't.

 

And please DON'T comment on other's choice to not subscribe to membership. Your $6 or so you pay is equilavent to my $9. And sometimes it's the issue of permission, not money.

[Erewhon2]

 

Its not about things being the end of the world, I expect progress and updates, look at the new spells and a number of updates for higher levels. No problem with them as you have to work your way to that level before you can use them, and it adds incentive. It has always been about variety and not making things 'easier' or 'faster'.

 

According to your opinion, easier = faster. According to mine, easier =/= faster. There's nothing wrong with having different opinions. And as I mentioned earlier, the use of the term "easier" was because the terms were not clearly defined.

And the point of a debate is to challenge those opposing viewpoints :roll:

Anyone can look up the definition of "easy" in the dictionary, but here you are, the dictionary definition: Easy: not hard or difficult; requiring no great labor or effort and as for "faster" here is that definition: Faster: moving or able to move, operate, function, or take effect quickly...made quickly or easily. I think that makes my point nicely! The two are synonymous.

 

And by the way, I said it was BORING and TEDIOUS, not challenging. It's not exactly THAT difficult to play a computer game, but RuneScape IS far more tedious than most other MMORPGs.

 

The game will naturally become easier as change goes on. It doesn't matter how much easier, but it will definitely become easier.

 

I don't want it to become too easy, because as I said, the game will fail it's basic purpose as a game if it doesn't prove remotely challenging at all. I'm just saying the game will naturally become easier.

 

In case you missed the clear reference to 'easier' :rolleyes: As I said, easier in this case = "faster". Why don't you define key terms properly earlier in the debate then?

See above

 

You play P2P with plenty of interesting/more fun/faster ways of training. I play the lousy F2P version, with boring and slow ways of training. I happen to not want to fork out approximately SGD$9 per month, so don't flame me for not subscribing to membership.

 

"Easier" in this case refers to "faster". No doubt cooking and firemaking are "faster" to get. They are also "easy" as there are plenty of guides telling you how to do it, but the same goes for smithing, mining, etc, but they are "slow" skills to train - so a 99 in them is respected.

I also hold an F2P account and my members account was F2P for quite a long time before I became a member, so give over with the hard done by act. Its still a free game to many people and enjoyed as such. And as the dictionary defines...easier and faster are interchangeable terms.

 

My opinion: The game wasn't more fun then. It was tedious and boring. Everything took longer than it should have taken in an online game. A game is about fun, not tedium and grinding skills. There's no way to revert back to the old game. Not that Jagex would do it EVEN IF there was a way to do it anyway, too many people would complain. Face it, the majority of people are lazy and they don't want to skill and grind and do other tedious stuff.

 

And it appears they can't even use their common sense to make the game more interesting for themselves, see my point above. RS is only tedious if you play it that way.

See my point above. I recommend you give the F2P version of the game a try before you flame me for not trying to find ways to make the game interesting.

As you said, this is your opinion, I think the thousands of ongoing players, both F2P and P2P who stay with Runescape would argue your sweeping statements. As I also said, I am and have been an F2P player (although my main account is member now) and there are still lots of ways to make the game interesting, but it does take some thought :shame: We come back to my earlier point about people wanting 'fun' thrown at them rather than actually thinking.

 

 

There's a difference between PLAYING RS and DEBATING about it. There's absolutely nothing wrong IMHO with debating about something you've quit playing.

Yes but that is the point...you don't debate it, all you do is run down Jagex, run down players, run down Runescape as a game or community, and constantly moan about how tedious or boring it all is.

 

I was never against reducing the "skill" required to play the game. But you'll have to classify all those so-called "baby" updates according to whether they made the game easier or not. I believe they didn't make the game require less so-called "skill", as they just made it more "convenient" or whatever you call it by preventing players from getting scammed/lured. You didn't need "skill" to avoid getting scammed. You need common sense.

 

And we also have to define the word "skill". Is it intellect? Persistence? Resistance to tedium? How good you are at the game? IMO skill is how good you are at the game, not meaning stats/monetary possessions. As in how effecient you train. But it's a very unclear line in RuneScape. I think in games in FunOrb, skill basically refers more-or-less to your rating, which directly reflects how many games you've won and by how much. As there's no real "winning" in RuneScape, "skill" is harder to define.

In the context of Runescape, skill is the term that Jagex have used to define the different areas of character development through levels. The skill in implementing that character development is in how you choose to play. I thought this was obvious. Of course there is no 'winning'! Otherwise Runescape would have an 'end', I never want it to end, it is a continous game.

 

"Faster" means less time used to do something. "Easier" means requiring less intelligence to find an effective method to train something. That's my definition.

 

"Huge game"? As I said, try F2P before you comment. What the majority might find interesting in F2P past some level in training can be counted by fingers. I'm not saying no one likes grinding smithing to 99 in F2P for example, but MOST people don't.

 

And please DON'T comment on other's choice to not subscribe to membership. Your $6 or so you pay is equilavent to my $9. And sometimes it's the issue of permission, not money.

I have given you the dictionary definition now, which shows your interpretation to be incorrect, I used Dictionary.com, if you wish to check those definitions.

You are also making sweeping statements again, those people may prefer playing a different way, as I appear to be repeatedly saying to you, its not about gunning for level 99 for everyone!

 

As for your last point, if you are of an age to require permission to take out membership, then like many others, there should be gratitude from you, that games like Runescape do offer gameplay for free, just don't expect it to be the same as a members game.

See my point below that Jrhairychest picked up:

 

As I stated, it is down to the individual to play the game the way that suits them best, maybe some just cannot be bothered to think through a game strategy or how to create fun, like yourself. But need to have 'fun' thrown at them, so they don't have to think at all, even though there is a huge game to be creative in. :huh:

Says it all in a nutshell. I'll bet she smells nice too :XD:

Hmmm....not sure about the smell bit, but maybe ;-)

[Guest jrhairychest]

You play P2P with plenty of interesting/more fun/faster ways of training. I play the lousy F2P version, with boring and slow ways of training. I happen to not want to fork out approximately SGD$9 per month, so don't flame me for not subscribing to membership.

So the fact is you wont fork out for membership, even though you complain F2P is ...crap? So you'll spite those who do because they decided to pay for it? Thats a really peculiar point of view, to the point of jealousy. This also explains this:

 

Yes but that is the point...you don't debate it, all you do is run down Jagex, run down players, run down Runescape as a game or community, and constantly moan about how tedious or boring it all is.

 

"Huge game"? As I said, try F2P before you comment. What the majority might find interesting in F2P past some level in training can be counted by fingers. I'm not saying no one likes grinding smithing to 99 in F2P for example, but MOST people don't.

 

I also started in F2P for my first 5-6 months of play and I'll bet most others started there too. If players didn't like 'grinding' any skills, then how come so many do? You're trying to speak for the majority of players yet you've quit the game while otheres are still playing 'grinding' away. If they didn't really enjoy it they simply wouldn't do it and Jagex would be devoid of any players, F2P and P2P alike.

 

And please DON'T comment on other's choice to not subscribe to membership. Your $6 or so you pay is equilavent to my $9. And sometimes it's the issue of permission, not money.

You need permission to play?

Hmmm....not sure about the smell bit, but maybe ;-)

So you're smelly????? :huh:

[Troacctid]

Anyone can look up the definition of "easy" in the dictionary, but here you are, the dictionary definition: Easy: not hard or difficult; requiring no great labor or effort and as for "faster" here is that definition: Faster: moving or able to move, operate, function, or take effect quickly...made quickly or easily. I think that makes my point nicely! The two are synonymous.

They mean the same thing if you make up your own definition. I went to Dictionary.com myself, and if you look at the entry:

 

[hide]

adjective

1. not hard or difficult; requiring no great labor or effort: a book that is easy to read; an easy victory.

2. free from pain, discomfort, worry, or care: He led an easy life.

3. providing or conducive to ease or comfort; comfortable: an easy stance; an easy relationship.

4. fond of or given to ease; easygoing: an easy disposition.

5. not harsh or strict; lenient: an easy master.

6. not burdensome or oppressive: easy terms on a loan.

7. not difficult to influence or overcome; compliant: an easy prey; an easy mark.

8. free from formality, constraint, or embarrassment: He has an easy manner.

9. effortlessly clear and fluent: an easy style of writing.

10. readily comprehended or mastered: an easy language to learn.

11. not tight or constricting: an easy fit.

12. not forced or hurried; moderate: an easy pace.

13. not steep; gradual: an easy flight of stairs.

14. Commerce.

a. (of a commodity) not difficult to obtain; in plentiful supply and often weak in price.

b. (of the market) not characterized by eager demand.

15. Nautical.

a. (of a bilge) formed in a long curve so as to make a gradual transition between the bottom and sides of a vessel; slack.

b. (of the run of a hull) having gently curved surfaces leading from the middle body to the stern; not abrupt.

adverb

16. Informal. in an easy manner; comfortably: to go easy; take it easy.

noun

17. a word formerly used in communications to represent the letter E.

Origin:

11501200; ME aisie, esy < AF (a)eisie, OF aisié, aised, ptp. of aisier to ease

 

Related forms:

eas⋅y⋅like, adjective

 

Synonyms:

2. tranquil, untroubled, comfortable, contented, quiet. 8. smooth, unconstrained.

 

Antonyms:

1. difficult. 2. agitated. 3. uncomfortable.[/hide]

 

...You'll notice that nowhere is "fast" mentioned at all. Well, except in definition #12, where "easy" actually means "slow." Fifteen definitions, and none of them say "fast."

 

(And 15, OMG SAILING!!!1!)

[Erewhon2]

Anyone can look up the definition of "easy" in the dictionary, but here you are, the dictionary definition: Easy: not hard or difficult; requiring no great labor or effort and as for "faster" here is that definition: Faster: moving or able to move, operate, function, or take effect quickly...made quickly or easily. I think that makes my point nicely! The two are synonymous.

They mean the same thing if you make up your own definition. I went to Dictionary.com myself, and if you look at the entry:

 

[hide]

–adjective

1. not hard or difficult; requiring no great labor or effort: a book that is easy to read; an easy victory.

2. free from pain, discomfort, worry, or care: He led an easy life.

3. providing or conducive to ease or comfort; comfortable: an easy stance; an easy relationship.

4. fond of or given to ease; easygoing: an easy disposition.

5. not harsh or strict; lenient: an easy master.

6. not burdensome or oppressive: easy terms on a loan.

7. not difficult to influence or overcome; compliant: an easy prey; an easy mark.

8. free from formality, constraint, or embarrassment: He has an easy manner.

9. effortlessly clear and fluent: an easy style of writing.

10. readily comprehended or mastered: an easy language to learn.

11. not tight or constricting: an easy fit.

12. not forced or hurried; moderate: an easy pace.

13. not steep; gradual: an easy flight of stairs.

14. Commerce.

a. (of a commodity) not difficult to obtain; in plentiful supply and often weak in price.

b. (of the market) not characterized by eager demand.

15. Nautical.

a. (of a bilge) formed in a long curve so as to make a gradual transition between the bottom and sides of a vessel; slack.

b. (of the run of a hull) having gently curved surfaces leading from the middle body to the stern; not abrupt.

–adverb

16. Informal. in an easy manner; comfortably: to go easy; take it easy.

–noun

17. a word formerly used in communications to represent the letter E.

Origin:

1150–1200; ME aisie, esy < AF (a)eisie, OF aisié, aised, ptp. of aisier to ease

 

Related forms:

eas⋅y⋅like, adjective

 

Synonyms:

2. tranquil, untroubled, comfortable, contented, quiet. 8. smooth, unconstrained.

 

Antonyms:

1. difficult. 2. agitated. 3. uncomfortable.[/hide]

 

...You'll notice that nowhere is "fast" mentioned at all. Well, except in definition #12, where "easy" actually means "slow." Fifteen definitions, and none of them say "fast."

 

(And 15, OMG SAILING!!!1!)

Yes and that same dictionary states for "faster" Which is where I made the reference to 'easy':

"1. moving or able to move, operate, function, or take effect quickly; quick; swift; rapid: a fast horse; a fast pain reliever; a fast thinker.

2. done in comparatively little time; taking a comparatively short time: a fast race; fast work.

3. (of time)

a. indicating a time in advance of the correct time, as of a clock.

b. noting or according to daylight-saving time.

4. adapted to, allowing, productive of, or imparting rapid movement: a hull with fast lines; one of the fastest pitchers in baseball.

5. characterized by unrestrained conduct or lack of moral conventions, esp. in sexual relations; wanton; loose: Some young people in that era were considered fast, if not downright promiscuous.

6. characterized by hectic activity: leading a fast life.

7. resistant: acid-fast.

8. firmly fixed in place; not easily moved; securely attached.

9. held or caught firmly, so as to be unable to escape or be extricated: an animal fast in a trap.

10. firmly tied, as a knot.

11. closed and made secure, as a door, gate, or shutter.

12. such as to hold securely: to lay fast hold on a thing.

13. firm in adherence; loyal; devoted: fast friends.

14. permanent, lasting, or unchangeable: a fast color; a hard and fast rule.

15. Informal.

a. (of money, profits, etc.) made quickly or easily and sometimes deviously

 

Or if you want we can sit here quoting the dictionary at each other all night!!!! The point is made, getting so pedantic over the minor interpretation of two words does not address the issue of this thread. :shame:

[Troacctid]

Anyone can look up the definition of "easy" in the dictionary, but here you are, the dictionary definition: Easy: not hard or difficult; requiring no great labor or effort and as for "faster" here is that definition: Faster: moving or able to move, operate, function, or take effect quickly...made quickly or easily. I think that makes my point nicely! The two are synonymous.

They mean the same thing if you make up your own definition. I went to Dictionary.com myself, and if you look at the entry:

 

[hide]

adjective

1. not hard or difficult; requiring no great labor or effort: a book that is easy to read; an easy victory.

2. free from pain, discomfort, worry, or care: He led an easy life.

3. providing or conducive to ease or comfort; comfortable: an easy stance; an easy relationship.

4. fond of or given to ease; easygoing: an easy disposition.

5. not harsh or strict; lenient: an easy master.

6. not burdensome or oppressive: easy terms on a loan.

7. not difficult to influence or overcome; compliant: an easy prey; an easy mark.

8. free from formality, constraint, or embarrassment: He has an easy manner.

9. effortlessly clear and fluent: an easy style of writing.

10. readily comprehended or mastered: an easy language to learn.

11. not tight or constricting: an easy fit.

12. not forced or hurried; moderate: an easy pace.

13. not steep; gradual: an easy flight of stairs.

14. Commerce.

a. (of a commodity) not difficult to obtain; in plentiful supply and often weak in price.

b. (of the market) not characterized by eager demand.

15. Nautical.

a. (of a bilge) formed in a long curve so as to make a gradual transition between the bottom and sides of a vessel; slack.

b. (of the run of a hull) having gently curved surfaces leading from the middle body to the stern; not abrupt.

adverb

16. Informal. in an easy manner; comfortably: to go easy; take it easy.

noun

17. a word formerly used in communications to represent the letter E.

Origin:

11501200; ME aisie, esy < AF (a)eisie, OF aisié, aised, ptp. of aisier to ease

 

Related forms:

eas⋅y⋅like, adjective

 

Synonyms:

2. tranquil, untroubled, comfortable, contented, quiet. 8. smooth, unconstrained.

 

Antonyms:

1. difficult. 2. agitated. 3. uncomfortable.[/hide]

 

...You'll notice that nowhere is "fast" mentioned at all. Well, except in definition #12, where "easy" actually means "slow." Fifteen definitions, and none of them say "fast."

 

(And 15, OMG SAILING!!!1!)

Yes and that same dictionary states for "faster" Which is where I made the reference to 'easy':

"1. moving or able to move, operate, function, or take effect quickly; quick; swift; rapid: a fast horse; a fast pain reliever; a fast thinker.

2. done in comparatively little time; taking a comparatively short time: a fast race; fast work.

3. (of time)

a. indicating a time in advance of the correct time, as of a clock.

b. noting or according to daylight-saving time.

4. adapted to, allowing, productive of, or imparting rapid movement: a hull with fast lines; one of the fastest pitchers in baseball.

5. characterized by unrestrained conduct or lack of moral conventions, esp. in sexual relations; wanton; loose: Some young people in that era were considered fast, if not downright promiscuous.

6. characterized by hectic activity: leading a fast life.

7. resistant: acid-fast.

8. firmly fixed in place; not easily moved; securely attached.

9. held or caught firmly, so as to be unable to escape or be extricated: an animal fast in a trap.

10. firmly tied, as a knot.

11. closed and made secure, as a door, gate, or shutter.

12. such as to hold securely: to lay fast hold on a thing.

13. firm in adherence; loyal; devoted: fast friends.

14. permanent, lasting, or unchangeable: a fast color; a hard and fast rule.

15. Informal.

a. (of money, profits, etc.) made quickly or easily and sometimes deviously

 

Or if you want we can sit here quoting the dictionary at each other all night!!!! The point is made, getting so pedantic over the minor interpretation of teo words does not address the issue of this thread. :shame:

...Yes, you've gone all the way down to definition #15, which defines "fast" in relation to "money, profits, etc." <_<

 

Yeah, let's just forget you brought it up. :mellow:

[Guest jrhairychest]

Faster IS easier. Its less time investment so it makes things easier to level. If it wasn't explain why you 99'd easier stuff. Why didn't you 99 slayer, herblore or runecrafting? Because they were slower to level so you judged them as hard.

[Troacctid]

Faster IS easier. Its less time investment so it makes things easier to level. If it wasn't explain why you 99'd easier stuff. Why didn't you 99 slayer, herblore or runecrafting? Because they were slower to level so you judged them as hard.

Because fishing/woodcutting are sooo fast to level at 50k xp/hr. :rolleyes:

 

I've already explained why I got 99 in those skills. You just weren't paying attention.

[Gandorf61]

Let's try and keep away from flaming each other and focus on the main debate. There's no need for personal attacks to make a good point.

[quelmotz]

Let's try and keep away from flaming each other and focus on the main debate. There's no need for personal attacks to make a good point.

 

Heard that?

 

Yes but that is the point...you don't debate it, all you do is run down Jagex, run down players, run down Runescape as a game or community, and constantly moan about how tedious or boring it all is.

 

I actually offer suggestions and solutions to the problems stated, unlike you. All you do is debate - does that solve the problems in Runescape? I suggest you go and check out some threads before you start making incredulous claims.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Let's try and keep away from flaming each other and focus on the main debate. There's no need for personal attacks to make a good point.

Fair point. I'm quite happy to stick to the topic. I'd also like people to be honest. This is not evident.

 

Heard that?

Thats a joke right? Have you even read your own quotes posted back to you throughout this debate?

 

Yes but that is the point...you don't debate it, all you do is run down Jagex, run down players, run down Runescape as a game or community, and constantly moan about how tedious or boring it all is.

I actually offer suggestions and solutions to the problems stated, unlike you. All you do is debate - does that solve the problems in Runescape? I suggest you go and check out some threads before you start making incredulous claims.

Erewhon2 was spot on with this. She's shown you directly what you write. You don't make suggestions, you complain. Now whats this 'needing permission to play RS' all about from earlier?

[Youmu]

I actually offer suggestions and solutions to the problems stated, unlike you. All you do is debate - does that solve the problems in Runescape? I suggest you go and check out some threads before you start making incredulous claims.

Erewhon2 was spot on with this. She's shown you directly what you write. You don't make suggestions, you complain. Now whats this 'needing permission to play RS' all about from earlier?

*Points to "Crushing and Stabbing weps not used" thread*

[quelmotz]

I actually offer suggestions and solutions to the problems stated, unlike you. All you do is debate - does that solve the problems in Runescape? I suggest you go and check out some threads before you start making incredulous claims.

Erewhon2 was spot on with this. She's shown you directly what you write. You don't make suggestions, you complain. Now whats this 'needing permission to play RS' all about from earlier?

*Points to "Crushing and Stabbing weps not used" thread*

 

You leave me with no choice:

 

1. Crushing/stabbing weapons almost useless (rants)

2. F2P mage and range underpowered (rants)

3. Reviving smithing and mining - divinite (I can't remember the exact name) (bugs and suggestions)

 

Anyway, jrhairychest, you're on my ignore list. Go ahead and flame and insult and spam and spout [cabbage] - I can't hear nor see what nonsense you write.

[Guest jrhairychest]

*Points to "Crushing and Stabbing weps not used" thread*

Lost your ability to read Sonic, or did you forget to read back in this thread? BTW do all F2Pers just post in forums about the raw deals they get or is it just some?

 

You leave me with no choice:

 

1. Crushing/stabbing weapons almost useless (rants)

2. F2P mage and range underpowered (rants)

3. Reviving smithing and mining - divinite (I can't remember the exact name) (bugs and suggestions)

 

Anyway, jrhairychest, you're on my ignore list. Go ahead and flame and insult and spam and spout [cabbage] - I can't hear nor see what nonsense you write.

 

'You leave me no choice....'. (think thunderous voice) That's like something from a movie and I like it :)

 

 

Thats because half those guys posting don't realise that you don't play anymore so they've not even thought of it. Its posts like this where the truth starts coming out.

Just a question..Why do you actually care about any of this stuff? I mean its not like you play any more since 'retiring' and why talk about smithing when you don't even do it?

 

Fare the well young Quelmotz, I shall miss thy's sharp wit, thy's points of wisdom and thy's influential points. I shall miss you. Btw don't forget to ask permission before you post, ok?

[Beebel]

Okay, I haven't read the whole post, but I did read the last few pages and it seems to have gone a little off topic.

 

Anyway, yell at me if any of this is a repeat of before, but I would think that most players that are getting annoyed at how 'easy' the game is, would be because of, like someone said, someone getting 99 fletch just before String X came out. I am a mediocre skiller, so a while ago, I decided to try for 99 mining, since it would be hard for me, considering I love to talk. It took me 14 months from 61 to 99, because of having to stop so many times, but I eventually did it.

 

A month later, living caverns came out. Yes, I am annoyed, but not so much at the fact that any 90+ combat player can now get double the xp I used to get (I am a slow skiller), while also making money, (I poweremined granite), and able to talk, but I am annoyed at the fact that in a couple of months, mining as a skill will go from being one of the hardest and most challenging skills to the difficulty of say woodcutting or fishing, which can be challenging.

 

This kind of thing also annoys me, because you never know when or how someone did a particular thing, and after being told countless times that 99 Firemaking is an easy 99, it does bug me, considering for me, it was a challenge, whilst 99 fishing was not. It all comes down to the judgements people give because of the updates. Cooking never used to be easy/fast, neither did fletching, this all happened over time, and now the older players that did everything the hard way have to live with it.

 

I like to be able to have some skills to train fast, but I also like to be able to be proud of a skill that took me a lot of effort, and so I think that as long as some aspects are hard and some are easy, this should be okay. In my opinion, when it comes to skilling, the hardest skills to train for an average player would be slayer, herblore or runecrafting now, after living caverns mining is no longer, and expensive skills, such as smithing, construction or crafting are now cheaper with the introduction of Stealing Creation. Although, for someone with a lot of cash, herblore wouldn't be too hard, as long as they were willing to part with it, I'm guessing.

 

So I think whilst RuneScape is getting easier, as long as there is some concept with some difficulty for the players that enjoy a challenge, this is okay, but in terms of skilling, the challenge is being taken out of skills slowly, but steadily.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Okay, I haven't read the whole post, but I did read the last few pages and it seems to have gone a little off topic.

 

Anyway, yell at me if any of this is a repeat of before, but I would think that most players that are getting annoyed at how 'easy' the game is, would be because of, like someone said, someone getting 99 fletch just before String X came out. I am a mediocre skiller, so a while ago, I decided to try for 99 mining, since it would be hard for me, considering I love to talk. It took me 14 months from 61 to 99, because of having to stop so many times, but I eventually did it.

Ok I'm going to yell at you.....Not really. Isn't this the way its supposed to be played? 14 months sounds a long time but I've never seen any rule book that suggests you have get 99 in six months. To me it sounds like you played it the way you wanted to play it by levelling a little at a time rather than trying to do it in one chunk. Sounds good to me.

 

A month later, living caverns came out. Yes, I am annoyed, but not so much at the fact that any 90+ combat player can now get double the xp I used to get (I am a slow skiller), while also making money, (I poweremined granite), and able to talk, but I am annoyed at the fact that in a couple of months, mining as a skill will go from being one of the hardest and most challenging skills to the difficulty of say woodcutting or fishing, which can be challenging.

I can see the annoyance. It relates to the skills discussed in the OP. I'm not familiar with the living caverns personally, but I can see your point about the skill becoming devalued.

 

This kind of thing also annoys me, because you never know when or how someone did a particular thing, and after being told countless times that 99 Firemaking is an easy 99, it does bug me, considering for me, it was a challenge, whilst 99 fishing was not. It all comes down to the judgements people give because of the updates. Cooking never used to be easy/fast, neither did fletching, this all happened over time, and now the older players that did everything the hard way have to live with it.

In terms of a challenge firemaking is easily buyable and fairly fast which it's why its become what it is and explains its commonality so on that point I disagree. Are you finding it a challenge because it requires more user interaction than the fishing skill? With a little reasoning, the cooking and fletching skills have gone the same way as firemaking i.e. buyable skills.

 

I like to be able to have some skills to train fast, but I also like to be able to be proud of a skill that took me a lot of effort, and so I think that as long as some aspects are hard and some are easy, this should be okay. In my opinion, when it comes to skilling, the hardest skills to train for an average player would be slayer, herblore or runecrafting now, after living caverns mining is no longer, and expensive skills, such as smithing, construction or crafting are now cheaper with the introduction of Stealing Creation. Although, for someone with a lot of cash, herblore wouldn't be too hard, as long as they were willing to part with it, I'm guessing.

Agreed. The most respected skills are the ones which either take the time to do or require a large amount of investment such as those you mentioned.

 

So I think whilst RuneScape is getting easier, as long as there is some concept with some difficulty for the players that enjoy a challenge, this is okay, but in terms of skilling, the challenge is being taken out of skills slowly, but steadily.

So I take it you're against this? What would be your solution?