Whose opinion holds weight?

[quelmotz]

@Erewhon2

 

If a guide advises one method of smithing for example, but a lvl 3 skiller with high lvl smithing suggested another way of doing it, that maybe more enjoyable, profitable or provide higher xp (whatever your preference is), then I am likely to try that method, I think that is common sense. If you only applied gaming methods that were on the guides, where is the adventure? The individualised game play? Someone who has no direct experience may only provide information they have read or been told, without confirming anything from their own experience.

 

First off, as I said, the guide could have easily been written by another lvl 3 skiller with high lvl smihing. He could have another method of doing things that was more enjoyable, profitable or providing higher exp which he wrote down in the guide. A single method can't be profitable, enjoyable and provides high exp at the same time (unless it is overpowered, which we assume is out of the question). Therefore perhaps the method provided in the guide is more exp-oriented whereas the advice provided by the lvl 3 skiller is more fun-oriented/money-oriented.

 

Get what I mean? In a nutshell, what I am saying is guides are written by players with a lot of experience. Therefore regardless of whether you read a guide or ask a player with a lot of experience, what you will get is more-or-less the same, except that one might fit your personal preference more. And who can guarantee that a player/guide will give a more suitable method for training than the other?

 

@Jrhairychest:

 

Please stop bringing other topics into this topic or I shall be forced to report you to a mod.

 

Player experience is vital. Read all the guides you want but it doesnt prepare anyone for the reality of doing something.

 

Stop denying an obvious, plain, clear, apparent fact. Guides are written by experienced players. Period.

 

Who is contradicting themselves? Guides are based on those particular players experience. Anyone can spout knowledge off guides, but they dont cover the ifs, buts, and maybes. For instance I hear about players making a few mill a day on slayer or barrows for instance. I make the same doing thieving but very few do it or know how except for those who already know.

 

And so? You make say 3 mil thieving. Those people make 3 mil doing barrows/slayer. For example. The difference? Nothing. It's just different methods of earning the same reward. The process is based on your personal preference. Maybe those people enjoy slaying/doing barrows whereas you enjoy thieving? You fail to state a simple point - so what if you earn the same amount of money thieving as those people who slay/do barrows?

 

Guides do also cover the ifs, buts and maybes, because simply - they are written by players. The players will also naturally state what you should do if you meet a certain situation based on prior experience. What makes you think guides don't cover the ifs, buts and maybes? And do you think a player in game is going to waste half an hour telling you every single detail about how to earn millions/day using his method? Fat chance. Whereas guides are written over days, and the writer has plenty of time to cover details and tell you what to do if an unlikely situation arises.

 

I think youve just pointed out that the player has become self-experienced and comparing what works/doesnt work for individuals (not sure about personal issues). You dont get that from guides. Your example shows a player adapting to meet their own needs via experience. Enough said.

 

But you've forgotten a really important point - different players have different needs and attitudes. I am not saying that a guide can tell you a perfect way to train that perfectly fits your style of play. However I am saying that a pleyer might also not be able to tell you a way to train that perfectly fits your style of play, as everyone is unique.

 

 

In a nutshell: Two statements.

 

Guides are written by players.

Players differ from each other, and therefore the information they give might not perfectly suit you. Therefore regardless of whether you read guides or gain information from an experienced player the end result is the same.

 

Guide X tells you to train combat on the Level 50 Giant Spiders in the Stronghold of Security. Clearly, this method is highly exp-oriented as it is fast, but you don't profit at all from it, in fact losing money due to food, teleports, etc costs.

 

Player Y tells you to train combat on Moss Giants in the varrock dungeon. Although this method is slower in gaining EXP, you make a profit from the large variety of items the moss giants drop.

 

Player Z, based on his experience, chooses to train combat on Greater Demons because he finds it exciting and fun. Though clearly it is inferior in drops and EXP, some players rate fun over all other criteria.

 

So even if you are experienced in the game, your personalised method of doing things might be inferior in other players' eyes. On the other hand, the other players' methods are also inferior in your eyes as everyone has their own personal preference and opinion. Therefore a player who read guide X has as good a method of training combat as Player Z even though he didn't experience the training of combat on giant spiders himself, provided he is a highly exp-oriented player. If he isn't I'm sure the guide provided suitable alternatives to training for money-oriented players, though I've rarely seen guides who give "fun" ways to train.

[foofoomagoo]

I'm pretty sure your title is grammatically incorrect... :wall:

[quelmotz]

I'm pretty sure your title is grammatically incorrect... :wall:

 

To err is to be human. :ugeek:

 

Anyway, why not post something more relevant. I mean so what if "whose" is wrongly written as "who"? Everyone still understands the title.

[langer]

That's the problem with statistics... it gives you a general indication. You might find occurences to be false, but the general trend will be somewhat accurate. Wel all have stereotypes and it is something hard to steer away from those, but dissing on someone's background to counter their arguments just means that the argument is lost and the disser has no more valid points.

Experience counts for everything. Its not a case of dissing anyone its just pointing out fact that some players aren't the experts they claim to be, particularly if their skill sets are low. I'm 59 summon and I've read the guides but that doesn't put me in a position to be the fountain of knowledge of it against someone of a much higher level. Put me next to someone like that to answer someone's question, I'll just say 'ask them, not me'.

 

@ erewhon and jrhairychest

 

Concerning the point of knowledge vs experience.

I would argue that knowledge is better than un-analysed experience but is worst than the combination of the two. Un-analysed experience from my point of view are often similar to player feelings or includes the fun factor (fun is way too subjective to count as a valid argument). Also note that I have tried every skills extensively and know which skills are fun for me and don't need someone else view of fun to be impose on me.

 

About guides... if every guide suggest to bring a crush weapon to waterfiends and some lvl 130 tells you "I kill them with whip just fine, bring a whip", while a lvl 3 skillers says "every guide suggest to bring a crush weapon as it speed up kills by X factor", who would you trust?

 

Again, experience counts for everything. I could read up on all the theory in the world but that doesn't mean I'm right, particularly when you get to subjectivity of a skill. In fact your point about subjectivity is, on the contrary, valid. Everyone analyses what is best for them , particularly at higher levels. You can't get that from reading guides, its your own gaming experience.

 

The guides aren't always right and someone who talks a good game having no experience of the skill for themselves has no idea of what might work best. Your waterfiends example shows that the lvl 130 might have done whats best for them and it could well work for those they are talking to. I'm pretty sure a lvl 130 would also be reading any guides for themselves at some point as we all do. I'd sooner trust a 130 on the issue instead of the level 3. In fact, only recently a lvl 120 something who I met at Barrows gave me some advice based on his own experience. I tried it and it worked. I couldn't get that from a level 3 skiller.

 

Experience counts for something, not everything. Analysed experience counts for everything. Someone with lvl 99 summon has a lot of experience. The only thing we can agree on is that player has spent lots of time getting XP in that skill. That information gives us no clue to how that person trained that skill, for all we know, that player could have used lamps, penguins and tears to get a high level. Thing is I know a lot of high level players with high summon that only know how to train the skill and not use it. They have no idea that skilling with a fruit bat gives 25K profit per hour or that a granite lobster will improve your xp rates and gold stack significantly.

 

It's normal to assume a high level player has more knowledge than a low level player because there are more chance to get a knowlegeable player from a sample of high level players than a sample of low level players.

 

That argument is also biased, because the low lvl skiller giving advices based on a guide he read in my example, is acting like a proxy to the high level experienced player that wrote the guide. My main point is that I would rather trust a player that crunched the numbers (guide writer) or the player that cites them (any other player that read and analysed the guide) over a player that has a feel of the game (lots of experience, but no supporting datas to back up any claim).

[swampjedi]

I'm starting to think this is actually a rant, brought on by someone deriding Quel's input due to his levels. It certainly reads like one. I say that because it doesn't matter how well reasoned the counterarguments are, he dismisses them out of hand.

 

I don't see why it matters to you if someone dismisses your opinion. Let them be dumb and train stupidly. Otherwise you're basically repeatedly slamming your head against the wall. They're kids and are NOT going to listen to you, reasonable as you might be. Wait, that feels awfully familiar.

[langer]

@ swampjedi

 

This thread is born from an argument on another topic between the OP and Quel.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Please stop bringing other topics into this topic or I shall be forced to report you to a mod.

Feel free to report me. I'm quoting your own words to prove your own bias in how you don't like other players achieving anything and what you actually think of higher leveled players who incidentally are posting in this thread.

 

Stop denying an obvious, plain, clear, apparent fact. Guides are written by experienced players. Period.

Lmao. So, you're an expert at godwars? What about crafting? How's about Magic......sooooo why did you post this in the Help and Advice forum?:

 

Does anyone know what's the most efficient way to train from level 51-59 magic for F2P? As cheap as possible.

 

Thanks in advance.

You're trying to draw on players experience here aren't you? Why didn't you just read the guides if they were so good? :---)

 

And so? You make say 3 mil thieving. Those people make 3 mil doing barrows/slayer. For example. The difference? Nothing. It's just different methods of earning the same reward. The process is based on your personal preference. Maybe those people enjoy slaying/doing barrows whereas you enjoy thieving? You fail to state a simple point - so what if you earn the same amount of money thieving as those people who slay/do barrows?

You seen this in any guide? There aren't many players aware if it or that do it either.

 

Guides do also cover the ifs, buts and maybes, because simply - they are written by players. The players will also naturally state what you should do if you meet a certain situation based on prior experience. What makes you think guides don't cover the ifs, buts and maybes? And do you think a player in game is going to waste half an hour telling you every single detail about how to earn millions/day using his method? Fat chance. Whereas guides are written over days, and the writer has plenty of time to cover details and tell you what to do if an unlikely situation arises.

If they did I wouldn't have shown your magic quote above? And you're forgetting that the writers of guides don't cover all the aspects but from their own POV and can lack details in various methods. This is why it is necessary to draw on experience in the game and no experience is better than what is best for the player themselves. Anyone can be a guide spouting monkey but without true experience it amounts to very little.

 

But you've forgotten a really important point - different players have different needs and attitudes. I am not saying that a guide can tell you a perfect way to train that perfectly fits your style of play. However I am saying that a pleyer might also not be able to tell you a way to train that perfectly fits your style of play, as everyone is unique.

So...now the guides don't cover the ifs, buts and maybe's? And does a player really need a low level to spout the guides...or.....that player can look at guides for themselves?

 

In a nutshell: Two statements.

 

Guides are written by players.

Players differ from each other, and therefore the information they give might not perfectly suit you. Therefore regardless of whether you read guides or gain information from an experienced player the end result is the same.

 

Guide X tells you to train combat on the Level 50 Giant Spiders in the Stronghold of Security. Clearly, this method is highly exp-oriented as it is fast, but you don't profit at all from it, in fact losing money due to food, teleports, etc costs.

 

Player Y tells you to train combat on Moss Giants in the varrock dungeon. Although this method is slower in gaining EXP, you make a profit from the large variety of items the moss giants drop.

 

Player Z, based on his experience, chooses to train combat on Greater Demons because he finds it exciting and fun. Though clearly it is inferior in drops and EXP, some players rate fun over all other criteria.

 

So even if you are experienced in the game, your personalised method of doing things might be inferior in other players' eyes. On the other hand, the other players' methods are also inferior in your eyes as everyone has their own personal preference and opinion. Therefore a player who read guide X has as good a method of training combat as Player Z even though he didn't experience the training of combat on giant spiders himself, provided he is a highly exp-oriented player. If he isn't I'm sure the guide provided suitable alternatives to training for money-oriented players, though I've rarely seen guides who give "fun" ways to train.

 

Your example is loaded towards the guide spouter who has no clue on alternative methods to train and has no clue about the subject in hand. You're also assuming player Z is automatically wrong. Nice try though.

 

Experience counts for something, not everything. Analysed experience counts for everything. Someone with lvl 99 summon has a lot of experience. The only thing we can agree on is that player has spent lots of time getting XP in that skill. That information gives us no clue to how that person trained that skill, for all we know, that player could have used lamps, penguins and tears to get a high level. Thing is I know a lot of high level players with high summon that only know how to train the skill and not use it. They have no idea that skilling with a fruit bat gives 25K profit per hour or that a granite lobster will improve your xp rates and gold stack significantly.

 

It's normal to assume a high level player has more knowledge than a low level player because there are more chance to get a knowlegeable player from a sample of high level players than a sample of low level players.

 

That argument is also biased, because the low lvl skiller giving advices based on a guide he read in my example, is acting like a proxy to the high level experienced player that wrote the guide. My main point is that I would rather trust a player that crunched the numbers (guide writer) or the player that cites them (any other player that read and analysed the guide) over a player that has a feel of the game (lots of experience, but no supporting datas to back up any claim).

 

It goes with anything in life that there is no substitute for experience. Here's my points:

• 
   
  
• Any player can look at guides for themselves. We don't need anyone else to do it for us. Players ask questions for more guidance, assurance, tactical knowledge or a mix. Theres an assumption here that because the level 3 uses a guide, anyone else doesn't which is incorrect. I don't have an issue with a level 3 saying 'read the guides' but I do have issues with saying 'Barrows..well you do this, that and the other' without having the experience of it to share with that player. That would be like me telling you how to do combat effectively in the duel arena. I'm the worlds worst at it, but forgive me if I'm not arrogant enough to think I am good at it.
  
• The guides cover the basics of things. A real player can dwell on how they found things, what they achieved and how well things worked overall and pass that knowledge on. Haven't you looked at a guide and thought 'hold on....' as you're methods might be more efficient, profitable or both?
  
• Are you a better player now than when you started? Looking at your 99's I trust you have worked out efficient methods of doing things in those skills, for which you could pass onto other players. Does a level 3 honestly know more than you, Langer, by spouting guides on lets say, slayer? I don't think so.
  
• Take the old RL scenario. Experience counts for everything there too. Would you trust a time-served mechanic to fix your Mustang or a guy who just reads books about it but has no practical knowledge/experience?
  
• XP means eXPerience. Sure not every high level will appreciate everything their skill has to offer, but I'm sure most take the time to look at different things. I usually find those who don't are high combatters but have very little other skills anyway.
  

 

So, give me an experienced player every time. If I need guides I can be trusted to look at them myself, rather than a player who is arrogant enough to think I need their advice even though they've no real clue. You're an intelligent poster so the phrase 'All theory and no practice' should sound familiar to you.

[swampjedi]

@ swampjedi

 

This thread is born from an argument on another topic between the OP and Quel.

 

My mistake, though my opinion of Quel's arguments stands.

[AnneFrank]

Friends mostly, and people who supported their opinions

[quelmotz]

You're trying to draw on players experience here aren't you? Why didn't you just read the guides if they were so good? :---)

 

The guides were written for members for god's sake. Didn't I bold the word "F2P"?

 

You seen this in any guide? There aren't many players aware if it or that do it either.

 

Quit avoiding the point. So what if you get 3 mil using a method different from a guide's method that allows you to get 3 mil?

 

If they did I wouldn't have shown your magic quote above? And you're forgetting that the writers of guides don't cover all the aspects but from their own POV and can lack details in various methods. This is why it is necessary to draw on experience in the game and no experience is better than what is best for the player themselves. Anyone can be a guide spouting monkey but without true experience it amounts to very little.

 

Anyone can give their own POV of how do train a certain skill in the game. Even if they are experienced in it, so what? Their POV would still be different from yours. As I've said multiple times - everyone is different. If a guide gives a X POV, an experienced player gives Y POV, a player who reads the guide will have effectively the same information as a player who asked the experienced player for information because everyone has different preferences. Stop trying to ignore the fact.

 

So...now the guides don't cover the ifs, buts and maybe's? And does a player really need a low level to spout the guides...or.....that player can look at guides for themselves?

 

It's impossible to cover every single possible exception, and I'm sure you know that. An experienced player would give even less detail about exceptions as he doesn't have as much time to detail it out in a short time ingame or in a post. Generally anyway. I know there are some players who would willingly write a huge paragraph on how to train some skills.

 

Your example is loaded towards the guide spouter who has no clue on alternative methods to train and has no clue about the subject in hand. You're also assuming player Z is automatically wrong. Nice try though.

 

What's the freaking point of "alternative methods"? You keep dwelling on it and eluding my question. So I'll bold it for you. What is the point of an alternative method that is effectively the same, but based on personal preference? Player X reads a guide, which is Method A based on the writer's personal preference. Player Y gets info from an expereienced player, which is Method B based on his point of view. So it is fair to say that Method A is an alternative from Method B, or vice versa. But there's effectively no difference in how effective the methods are given that player X and Y have different personal preferences from their respective sources of information.

 

------

 

And by the way, stop being a hypocrite. You keep saying I'm getting to worked up in the other thread, yet you seem to be the one using a lot of sarcasm and cutting comments and ad hominems. If you're going to strongly criticise people for something, at least practise what you preach so strongly.

[Guest jrhairychest]

 

The guides were written for members for god's sake. Didn't I bold the word "F2P"?

Right, so that wasn't really you asking that question instead of reading guides then eh? :---). Oh and by the way, I'm waiting to be reported.

 

Quit avoiding the point. So what if you get 3 mil using a method different from a guide's method that allows you to get 3 mil?

No point avoided but a point proved. I learn things by experience and by reading things for myself. I also ask the right players the right questions. You on the other hand would give me all the things that are in the guide, because you rely on it having no experience of the skill/minigame/quest in question. I've learned much more doing that than any player without the practical experience could ever give. Btw its 2m not 3m as I originally said a few mill.

 

Anyone can give their own POV of how do train a certain skill in the game. Even if they are experienced in it, so what? Their POV would still be different from yours. As I've said multiple times - everyone is different. If a guide gives a X POV, an experienced player gives Y POV, a player who reads the guide will have effectively the same information as a player who asked the experienced player for information because everyone has different preferences. Stop trying to ignore the fact.

What facts am I ignoring exactly? That a player with no experience in skill X but reads guides automatically knows about that skill because they've become an expert at it? This is a problem with your own argument. You have some combat skills and are ranked in firemaking. Reading guides won't make you a wise person without the experience that goes with it. Just like I can't give advice about lets say Hunter, simply because reading a guide doesn't give me that experience I need to know what I'm talking about.

 

It's impossible to cover every single possible exception, and I'm sure you know that. An experienced player would give even less detail about exceptions as he doesn't have as much time to detail it out in a short time ingame or in a post. Generally anyway. I know there are some players who would willingly write a huge paragraph on how to train some skills.

 

You stated in your previous post that the guides cover all angles and now you're saying they don't. Its not about writing paragraphs or even accessing guides, its about the difference between a player saying 'I'm not sure but I can recommend a guide' or 'yes I know what I'm talking about because I read guides'. The first is honesty, the second is someone wanting to seem knowledgeable to other people, kind of like some attention deficit thing.

 

What's the freaking point of "alternative methods"? You keep dwelling on it and eluding my question. So I'll bold it for you. What is the point of an alternative method that is effectively the same, but based on personal preference? Player X reads a guide, which is Method A based on the writer's personal preference. Player Y gets info from an expereienced player, which is Method B based on his point of view. So it is fair to say that Method A is an alternative from Method B, or vice versa. But there's effectively no difference in how effective the methods are given that player X and Y have different personal preferences from their respective sources of information.

 

You've been told about your tantrums before, by myself and other players so calm it down, or I'll treat you like the little boy you're behaving like. Its a loaded question to favour your own argument so screaming that I won't answer it wont help you. I may be a little caustic at times, but I ain't stupid enough to be drawn on that ;-)

 

And by the way, stop being a hypocrite. You keep saying I'm getting to worked up in the other thread, yet you seem to be the one using a lot of sarcasm and cutting comments and ad hominems. If you're going to strongly criticise people for something, at least practise what you preach so strongly.

Do you see me getting worked up? Nope. Do you see me telling every one to shut up? Nope. Do you see me spitting my dummy out when someone disagrees with me? Nope. I don't need to get worked up. If people disagree with me that's fine, its their choice.

 

I know you have some sort of desire to feel you need to be heard and you think by trying to shout it down, you'll do that but you just make yourself look like more ridiculous. You'll also do that by posting about things you don't know about. You have even stuck to points of arguments in other threads when I personally waved evidence in front of your face you didn't want to know and proceeded on your course of actions, or when asked for evidence you couldn't bring any (I think I asked 5 or 6 times at one point for something you couldn't prove). You've been found wanting on a number of occasions because you simply didn't know what you're talking about. But keep posting, as you'll just lose it completely at some point and Erewhon2 will have been proven correct in the first post.

[Erewhon2]

I'm starting to think this is actually a rant, brought on by someone deriding Quel's input due to his levels. It certainly reads like one. I say that because it doesn't matter how well reasoned the counterarguments are, he dismisses them out of hand.

 

I don't see why it matters to you if someone dismisses your opinion. Let them be dumb and train stupidly. Otherwise you're basically repeatedly slamming your head against the wall. They're kids and are NOT going to listen to you, reasonable as you might be. Wait, that feels awfully familiar.

Swampjedi, please don't make assumptions unless you have informed youself fully of the circumstances, first I am a 'she' not 'he'. I never 'rant'. The debate with Quel was not intended as deriding, but is a discussion that we couldn't agree on that was way off topic. The topic is broader than our argument, therefore it seemed appropraite to open it up to others. And by the way, I left my childhood behind a very....very, long time ago! What I am dismissive of is uniformed, unanalysed opinions that are presented as facts when they are just assumptions based on biased opinion.

 

Friends mostly, and people who supported their opinions

Fair point and probably reflect mosts people's behaviour in real life.

 

Anyone can give their own POV of how do train a certain skill in the game. Even if they are experienced in it, so what? Their POV would still be different from yours. As I've said multiple times - everyone is different. If a guide gives a X POV, an experienced player gives Y POV, a player who reads the guide will have effectively the same information as a player who asked the experienced player for information because everyone has different preferences. Stop trying to ignore the fact.

What facts am I ignoring exactly? That a player with no experience in skill X but reads guides automatically knows about that skill because they've become an expert at it? This is a problem with your own argument. You have some combat skills and are ranked in firemaking. Reading guides won't make you a wise person without the experience that goes with it. Just like I can't give advice about lets say Hunter, simply because reading a guide doesn't give me that experience I need to know what I'm talking about.

There is a point here that also addresses Langer's POV. When asking for an opinion or advice it is useful to gain theoretical knowledge, but until that is applied in practice it cannot be confirmed as being the best method for that individual. In this instance I think it is appropriate to compare to a RL example of working with someone who requires personal support, the definition in the UK, is that disabled person is an "expert by experience" and therefore is best placed to correctly advise the assistant in how best to support them. I know that may be an extreme example, but the principle is that the person with the direct experience has a deeper understanding of whatever the issues may be....and that is where it relates to gaming on RS.

 

I am not dismissing useful advice from those who have read guides, we can all do that and I do regularly. But the real benefit are the tips from those with direct experience in the particular skill. It also those opinions that I am likely to give more weight to. It is then that I might decide what route or method I would like to try, or listen to more carefully in a debate as they are the ones who may change my POV.

 

And by the way, stop being a hypocrite. You keep saying I'm getting to worked up in the other thread, yet you seem to be the one using a lot of sarcasm and cutting comments and ad hominems. If you're going to strongly criticise people for something, at least practise what you preach so strongly.

Do you see me getting worked up? Nope. Do you see me telling every one to shut up? Nope. Do you see me spitting my dummy out when someone disagrees with me? Nope. I don't need to get worked up. If people disagree with me that's fine, its their choice

As for this.....It would appear to me that Jrhairychest is blunt, to the point and has strong opinions, but ultimately he cuts through all the rubbish and 'fluff' to get to the heart of the matter and makes for an intelligent and excellent debate.

[swampjedi]

Erewhon - yes, I misspoke. See my correction a few posts back? Eh? Keep in mind, I'm on your side in this discussion.

 

My problem is with how Quel is handling this discussion, not you. I made that clear. How's that for informing yourself of the circumstances? <_<

[Erewhon2]

Erewhon - yes, I misspoke. See my correction a few posts back? Eh? Keep in mind, I'm on your side in this discussion.

 

My problem is with how Quel is handling this discussion, not you. I made that clear. How's that for informing yourself of the circumstances? <_<

Lol...fair enough, the emphasis was misread by me :oops:

[swampjedi]

Ha, what can I say, I have level 99 in jumping the gun.

[quelmotz]

 

The guides were written for members for god's sake. Didn't I bold the word "F2P"?

Right, so that wasn't really you asking that question instead of reading guides then eh? :---). Oh and by the way, I'm waiting to be reported.

 

Quit avoiding the point. So what if you get 3 mil using a method different from a guide's method that allows you to get 3 mil?

No point avoided but a point proved. I learn things by experience and by reading things for myself. I also ask the right players the right questions. You on the other hand would give me all the things that are in the guide, because you rely on it having no experience of the skill/minigame/quest in question. I've learned much more doing that than any player without the practical experience could ever give. Btw its 2m not 3m as I originally said a few mill.

 

Oh wow you said a "few mill" and now you suddenly criticised me for assuming what you didn't specify in the first place? Does it hurt you to right 2 mil instead of "a few mill"?

 

Why can't you get my point? If you spout information from "practical experience", it's effectively the same as someone spouting information from a guide. I leave you to go and read my REPEATED explanation.

 

Anyone can give their own POV of how do train a certain skill in the game. Even if they are experienced in it, so what? Their POV would still be different from yours. As I've said multiple times - everyone is different. If a guide gives a X POV, an experienced player gives Y POV, a player who reads the guide will have effectively the same information as a player who asked the experienced player for information because everyone has different preferences. Stop trying to ignore the fact.

What facts am I ignoring exactly? That a player with no experience in skill X but reads guides automatically knows about that skill because they've become an expert at it? This is a problem with your own argument. You have some combat skills and are ranked in firemaking. Reading guides won't make you a wise person without the experience that goes with it. Just like I can't give advice about lets say Hunter, simply because reading a guide doesn't give me that experience I need to know what I'm talking about.

I'm NOT claiming that just because I read a guide I am therefore a wise person. But JUST BECAUSE someone has what you call "practical experience" in the game doesn't make you an expert either. Langer already stated explicitly about "un-analysed experience".

 

There's a difference between having the right to talk about something and knowing what you're talking about. I don't go around boasting that I know everything about high level magic training for example. You're probably going to scream about the earlier thread. In that thread I said the game was tedious and boring. You were the one who made all the assumptions and claimed that I was someone who the game "beat" and all that.

 

I can easily repeat information from a guide, but I don't want to.

 

 

It's impossible to cover every single possible exception, and I'm sure you know that. An experienced player would give even less detail about exceptions as he doesn't have as much time to detail it out in a short time ingame or in a post. Generally anyway. I know there are some players who would willingly write a huge paragraph on how to train some skills.

 

You stated in your previous post that the guides cover all angles and now you're saying they don't. Its not about writing paragraphs or even accessing guides, its about the difference between a player saying 'I'm not sure but I can recommend a guide' or 'yes I know what I'm talking about because I read guides'. The first is honesty, the second is someone wanting to seem knowledgeable to other people, kind of like some attention deficit thing.

I never freaking stated that guides covered all angles for god's sake. I said they covered MORE angles. MORE does not equate to ALL.

 

Yes, someone DOES know what he's talking about if he reads enough guides regarding the topic. The point is the person doesn't have rights to boast about his knowledge about the topic. Before you start flaming me for being a hypocrite and citing quotes from the thread, let me remind you that I never boasted that I knew more than I really did about high level skills that I've never touched. I only said that the game was tedious enough at my level.

 

What's the freaking point of "alternative methods"? You keep dwelling on it and eluding my question. So I'll bold it for you. What is the point of an alternative method that is effectively the same, but based on personal preference? Player X reads a guide, which is Method A based on the writer's personal preference. Player Y gets info from an expereienced player, which is Method B based on his point of view. So it is fair to say that Method A is an alternative from Method B, or vice versa. But there's effectively no difference in how effective the methods are given that player X and Y have different personal preferences from their respective sources of information.

 

You've been told about your tantrums before, by myself and other players so calm it down, or I'll treat you like the little boy you're behaving like. Its a loaded question to favour your own argument so screaming that I won't answer it wont help you. I may be a little caustic at times, but I ain't stupid enough to be drawn on that ;-)

"Tantrums"? I'm relatively calm here. Bolding something and increasing it's font size is to let your apparently half-blind eyes see it.

 

It won't help me. It'll just make you look ridiculous for not answering a bolded question. At least this time you've condescended to answer it.

 

And by the way, stop being a hypocrite. You keep saying I'm getting to worked up in the other thread, yet you seem to be the one using a lot of sarcasm and cutting comments and ad hominems. If you're going to strongly criticise people for something, at least practise what you preach so strongly.

Do you see me getting worked up? Nope. Do you see me telling every one to shut up? Nope. Do you see me spitting my dummy out when someone disagrees with me? Nope. I don't need to get worked up. If people disagree with me that's fine, its their choice.

 

I never said you got worked up. If you don't like others using sarcasm, then why don't you quit using them yourself?

 

I know you have some sort of desire to feel you need to be heard and you think by trying to shout it down, you'll do that but you just make yourself look like more ridiculous. You'll also do that by posting about things you don't know about. You have even stuck to points of arguments in other threads when I personally waved evidence in front of your face you didn't want to know and proceeded on your course of actions, or when asked for evidence you couldn't bring any (I think I asked 5 or 6 times at one point for something you couldn't prove). You've been found wanting on a number of occasions because you simply didn't know what you're talking about. But keep posting, as you'll just lose it completely at some point and Erewhon2 will have been proven correct in the first post.

 

I can carry on as long as you like. Go ahead and try to irritate me then.

 

And how ironic. I've asked you a question TWICE before you answered it. And I've stated a point multiple times and you've yet to respond to it or even provide a proper counter-argument.

 

[Guest jrhairychest]

Oh wow you said a "few mill" and now you suddenly criticised me for assuming what you didn't specify in the first place? Does it hurt you to right 2 mil instead of "a few mill"?

 

Why can't you get my point? If you spout information from "practical experience", it's effectively the same as someone spouting information from a guide. I leave you to go and read my REPEATED explanation.

I see you want to behave like the child you've been previously behaving like and not want to grow up. Fine, I shall treat you like one. Grow up, behave and stop acting like a little brat because you've been called on a number of posts. Just because I'm not agreeing with you, there's no need to be so aggressive and idiotic so do us all a favour and stop smashing up your keyboard again to prove your point. You know very little, but you preach one hell of a lot to all and sundry about things you don't have a clue about.

 

If you read again, I haven't criticised you over the mills, I've simply corrected the amount. You want to get uptight about it, that's your problem.

 

 

I'm NOT claiming that just because I read a guide I am therefore a wise person. But JUST BECAUSE someone has what you call "practical experience" in the game doesn't make you an expert either. Langer already stated explicitly about "un-analysed experience".

 

Who shall I ask about slayer, you or Langer? Who shall I ask about Herblore, you or Swampjedi? Get the picture? Reading guides proves nothing except you 'think' you know what you're talking about. I'm glad you're here to tell us these things as it proves the OP's point.

 

There's a difference between having the right to talk about something and knowing what you're talking about. I don't go around boasting that I know everything about high level magic training for example. You're probably going to scream about the earlier thread. In that thread I said the game was tedious and boring. You were the one who made all the assumptions and claimed that I was someone who the game "beat" and all that.

 

I can easily repeat information from a guide, but I don't want to.

 

Who is screaming...? I'm not putting things in uppercase to shout nor using words like freaking and being incredibly agressive. Little boys do that. I know the game beat you. You don't claim to be retired when you've only ranked 5 skills then say you've quit then go around posting on things you know nothing about. And yes you're correct you don't know anything about high level magic training, so you asked for advice instead of reading guides. Not exactly practicing what you preach eh.

 

 

 

I never freaking stated that guides covered all angles for god's sake. I said they covered MORE angles. MORE does not equate to ALL.

 

Really? hmmm............You sure...?

 

Guides do also cover the ifs, buts and maybes, because simply - they are written by players.

 

Yes, someone DOES know what he's talking about if he reads enough guides regarding the topic. The point is the person doesn't have rights to boast about his knowledge about the topic. Before you start flaming me for being a hypocrite and citing quotes from the thread, let me remind you that I never boasted that I knew more than I really did about high level skills that I've never touched. I only said that the game was tedious enough at my level.

Nope, you cannot beat experience. I'm assuming you're under working age by your attitude so you've never worked a day in your life. When they ask for experience just tell them you know all the theory so you don't need it. when they get up from laughing you'll understand :wink:. The same applies to the game. Oh yes I've heard all the 'expert' opinions on skills, minigames etc but nothing beats experienced advice, not 'lemme just read this guide'. And by the way, if things are tedious at your levels, the game did beat you.

 

"Tantrums"? I'm relatively calm here. Bolding something and increasing it's font size is to let your apparently half-blind eyes see it.

Really. Explain the aggressive behaviour you display in many threads.

 

It won't help me. It'll just make you look ridiculous for not answering a bolded question. At least this time you've condescended to answer it.

:grin:

 

I never said you got worked up. If you don't like others using sarcasm, then why don't you quit using them yourself?

 

I appreciate sarcasm when its done correctly. Yours is neither sarcasm or done correctly. Its just part of your aggressive nature.

 

I can carry on as long as you like. Go ahead and try to irritate me then.

 

And how ironic. I've asked you a question TWICE before you answered it. And I've stated a point multiple times and you've yet to respond to it or even provide a proper counter-argument.

 

I don't see the irony. I don't need to answer loaded questions. Why do you copy things from what I tell you about your behaviour. You understand that others on the threads have told you to calm down etc? Give me something to counter and I'll do it. And feel free to stick around and talk us some more about the theories of what you know and how aggressive and generally unpleasant you are.

[Erewhon2]

What's the freaking point of "alternative methods"? You keep dwelling on it and eluding my question. So I'll bold it for you. What is the point of an alternative method that is effectively the same, but based on personal preference? Player X reads a guide, which is Method A based on the writer's personal preference. Player Y gets info from an expereienced player, which is Method B based on his point of view. So it is fair to say that Method A is an alternative from Method B, or vice versa. But there's effectively no difference in how effective the methods are given that player X and Y have different personal preferences from their respective sources of information.

I would appreciate a calmer approach to this debate, it is a debate not a 'rant', that is why I began this thread! :shame:

An alternative method would, I assume, be just that. I return to my example of doing agility, the guides advise moving up to the harder courses as your skill level improves. I found for myself (with no advice) that I preferred to stay and do agility in Brimhaven (which I might add, is hardly mentioned in the RS manual). This was clearly an 'alternative' method, that did not fit with the advice of the guides. I now suggest this to others as a potentially more 'fun' way to train agility, especially with a friend or two.

 

I now do my farming in an 'alternative' way, a lot of experienced players appear to spend mills buying high level tree seeds to plant. Using the guides, I have found a different (if slower) method of farming that suits me better, and have already passed on that advice successfully to someone who has found that method suits them too. Yet they may not have considered it without the discussion that took place about the method I had worked out.

 

I have now done Barrows (finally), and was totally reliant on the personal experience of another player, I read the guides, but just could not get a clear idea of what I was up against so did not get around to it. I am glad I have done it now, and I will return, but it is thanks to the personal experience of another player.

 

Ultimately it is about personal preference, but I do feel that I would want advice from a player with the experience rather than someone who did not play RS, or had only read the information. Direct me to the guides by all means, but not to say that it should be done this way.

[quelmotz]

What's the freaking point of "alternative methods"? You keep dwelling on it and eluding my question. So I'll bold it for you. What is the point of an alternative method that is effectively the same, but based on personal preference? Player X reads a guide, which is Method A based on the writer's personal preference. Player Y gets info from an expereienced player, which is Method B based on his point of view. So it is fair to say that Method A is an alternative from Method B, or vice versa. But there's effectively no difference in how effective the methods are given that player X and Y have different personal preferences from their respective sources of information.

I would appreciate a calmer approach to this debate, it is a debate not a 'rant', that is why I began this thread! :shame:

An alternative method would, I assume, be just that. I return to my example of doing agility, the guides advise moving up to the harder courses as your skill level improves. I found for myself (with no advice) that I preferred to stay and do agility in Brimhaven (which I might add, is hardly mentioned in the RS manual). This was clearly an 'alternative' method, that did not fit with the advice of the guides. I now suggest this to others as a potentially more 'fun' way to train agility, especially with a friend or two.

 

I now do my farming in an 'alternative' way, a lot of experienced players appear to spend mills buying high level tree seeds to plant. Using the guides, I have found a different (if slower) method of farming that suits me better, and have already passed on that advice successfully to someone who has found that method suits them too. Yet they may not have considered it without the discussion that took place about the method I had worked out.

 

I have now done Barrows (finally), and was totally reliant on the personal experience of another player, I read the guides, but just could not get a clear idea of what I was up against so did not get around to it. I am glad I have done it now, and I will return, but it is thanks to the personal experience of another player.

 

Ultimately it is about personal preference, but I do feel that I would want advice from a player with the experience rather than someone who did not play RS, or had only read the information. Direct me to the guides by all means, but not to say that it shouldbe done this way.

 

Let's look at the context. I asked jrhairychest the same question thrice and he has yet to provide a proper answer, instead continuously flaming me for "aggression" which he himself asked for.

 

I'd love to see you find a quote where I explicitly stated that I knew something like how to train from level 98 magic to level 99 magic. Can't right? I only defended the fact that someone who reads guides is effectively as knowledgeable as someone who has "practical experience".

 

"Alternative methods" are based on personal preference, as you've admitted. So if you were to tell someone your "alternative method", compared to someone reading up on another method based on a guide, is there a difference?

Not really. Either way the person will probably try out the method which is based on his/her personal preference, which is roughly a 50-50 chance.

 

And by the way, words of emphasising the point to get it through like typing in CAPS are not the same as words of aggression, i.e. cursing.

 

-----

 

I found the methods stated in the guides didn't suit my personal preference. I found that the methods given by some players didn't suit my preference either.

 

Guides do also cover the ifs, buts and maybes, because simply - they are written by players.

 

Did I say they cover all the exceptions? No. :roll: Desperate for quotes that are nonexistent eh?

[sees_all1]

MAH OPINION HOLDS MOAR WEIGHT RAAAAAAAAAWWWRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

 

 

In all seriousness, if I have an opinion, I will post it. When I read someone else's opinion, I make every effort to understand what they're saying, and why they're saying it.

Especially if I disagree with them, because then I can debate the opinion and not the person.

 

I expect that if you disagree with me, its nothing personal. However, if you disagree with me, I will try to make sure you understand my opinion. People that disagree with me and make no attempt to demonstrate their understanding tick me off. Its things like pulling 2-3 sentences out of a lengthy paragraph, telling them exactly why they're wrong, and ignoring the rest of the post.

 

 

 

As far as a forum goes, it is my understanding that anyone with experience with whatever is being discussed in a thread has a valid opinion. This is why you'll never see me post in the "Slayer Sucks" thread, or talk about an in depth guide to summoning. I don't do those things, so I try not to make myself look like a fool. I expect the same from others.

You'll also find that those that do this are called out on it, the internet has a very long arm to deliver a smack to the back of the head.

[ghost4sale1]

I think that if an opinion is well thought out, has great meaning with correct grammar then it shouldn't matter what level you are. :^_^:

[Erewhon2]

"Alternative methods" are based on personal preference, as you've admitted. So if you were to tell someone your "alternative method", compared to someone reading up on another method based on a guide, is there a difference?

Not really. Either way the person will probably try out the method which is based on his/her personal preference, which is roughly a 50-50 chance.

Of course there is a difference! My example of farming was not in the guides, it was something I worked out using the guides for reference only. This is where the guides having been compiled from a number of peoples experiences, cannot cover everything. But someone giving advice first hand from direct experience can give that extra dimension. Its all about personal preference, and I'm certainly not arguing that, but talking to someone with direct experience and being able to ask the right questions and get the advice that suits you, provides a much more individualised platform to decide your own game strategy. The guides are just what they say they are....guides.

 

MAH OPINION HOLDS MOAR WEIGHT RAAAAAAAAAWWWRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

In all seriousness, if I have an opinion, I will post it. When I read someone else's opinion, I make every effort to understand what they're saying, and why they're saying it.

Especially if I disagree with them, because then I can debate the opinion and not the person.

 

I expect that if you disagree with me, its nothing personal. However, if you disagree with me, I will try to make sure you understand my opinion. People that disagree with me and make no attempt to demonstrate their understanding tick me off. Its things like pulling 2-3 sentences out of a lengthy paragraph, telling them exactly why they're wrong, and ignoring the rest of the post.

 

As far as a forum goes, it is my understanding that anyone with experience with whatever is being discussed in a thread has a valid opinion. This is why you'll never see me post in the "Slayer Sucks" thread, or talk about an in depth guide to summoning. I don't do those things, so I try not to make myself look like a fool. I expect the same from others.

You'll also find that those that do this are called out on it, the internet has a very long arm to deliver a smack to the back of the head.

And that is why it is so useful to discuss gameplay with an experienced player, or someone with the skills or experience in the area you are interested in. They will have that valid opinion and will usually not end up making you or themselves 'look like a fool' as you put it. Even if you disagree with their methods, at least you can debate it.

 

I think that if an opinion is well thought out, has great meaning with correct grammar then it shouldn't matter what level you are. :^_^:

But has absolutely no value if it is not an informed opinion, even an infomed opinion can just be parroting what is in the guides, unless it is founded in experience.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Let's look at the context. I asked jrhairychest the same question thrice and he has yet to provide a proper answer, instead continuously flaming me for "aggression" which he himself asked for.

 

Ummm...Nope. Just pointing out your aggression. Show me where I've flamed you by all means. I've told you I don't need to answer a loaded question thats balanced in your favour. I don't have a problem with it. You do. Enough said.

 

I'd love to see you find a quote where I explicitly stated that I knew something like how to train from level 98 magic to level 99 magic. Can't right? I only defended the fact that someone who reads guides is effectively as knowledgeable as someone who has "practical experience".

 

Nobody said you did. As far as we all saw you were 'asking for help from other players' for mage guidance for levels in the 50's. Why didn't you read a guide? Because you're trying to talk as if you know things you know nothing about, but I can't expect anything else from someone who wants to be seen as knowledgable but isn't.

 

"Alternative methods" are based on personal preference, as you've admitted. So if you were to tell someone your "alternative method", compared to someone reading up on another method based on a guide, is there a difference?

Not really. Either way the person will probably try out the method which is based on his/her personal preference, which is roughly a 50-50 chance.

 

Actually there is a difference. You can't make any form of opinion that you haven't tried yourself or worked out which way works best for yourself. Did you take my employment comments on board or are you too young to be employed to have any idea?

 

And by the way, words of emphasising the point to get it through like typing in CAPS are not the same as words of aggression, i.e. cursing.

 

No its the sign of aggression from someone getting worked up like some kid telling people to shut up, so if you know web etiqette you'd understand it. I take it you're willing to grow up now and behave like an adult?

 

I found the methods stated in the guides didn't suit my personal preference. I found that the methods given by some players didn't suit my preference either.

 

So whose opinion holds weight? Those that know what they are talking about, are active members of the game and have experience of aspects of the game in question, or those who don't play, read guides and instantly become some sort of expert? Your opinion would hold a lot more weight if you actually played the game got some serious experience of things to make some sort of informed decision.

 

Did I say they cover all the exceptions? No. :roll: Desperate for quotes that are nonexistent eh?

 

You have said it by stating they do cover all the ifs buts and maybe's or are you changing your mind? I don't need to look for quotes as they aren't exactly hard to find now are they :wink:. I mean, it could have even been because of you this got started in the first place.

 

 

Edited for readability for the new forum layout.

[vivimancer]

I'd love to see you find a quote where I explicitly stated that I knew something like how to train from level 98 magic to level 99 magic. Can't right? I only defended the fact that someone who reads guides is effectively as knowledgeable as someone who has "practical experience".

 

So by this logic as I've watched a video on youtube on brain surgery I am as knowledgeable as a professional surgeon? Also commenting on an abrasive posting style is not flaming quelmotz, however shouting down everyone that disagrees with you ... is.

 

Back on topic; an opinion is only as valid as the weight you give it, if you disagree with the advice given you can choose to ignore it. Using an earlier example a level 3 skiller's opinion on Barrows is less valid than some one who regularly plays that mini-game, but only because his (or her =) level excludes them from playing the mini-game properly (assuming that is their only account) but a player with 97 magic would have a valid opinion about training high level magic as they have practical experience of the subject.

[noble_aloof]

Your point is right to some extent. an example is i remember not long ago i made a post in a thread about slayer, saying that slayer favored melee based characters. some people trashed me, saying "if u choose not to train some skills you wont have access to some content" which made absolutely no sense, considering i do train melee from time to time. after i wrote my agitated response to some of these people, i noticed that my 74 slayer far surpassed 3/4 people's slayer levels (and my combat was below all 4 of them). that just goes to show you how people are ready to jump on you when you make a post against the EASY/FAVORED way of training a skill. my slayer experience (especially at a low cb level) means that my opinion holds more weight. period.