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Tip.it Times 21 February 2010


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#21
tortilliachp
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^ A few spelling errors need to be fixed, and the name of the slayer monster corrected, but that should be put into the Times next to the first article ASAP.

Just a few things I'm wondering about:

The release of Sorceress’ Garden warranted little complaint and the recent release of Nomad’s Requiem was hardly debated either, even though this was the ultimate integration of boss fighting and question on the highest level.


Is that a typo in the last bit? I can't quite make out what the last clause means, perhaps the word intended was questing. Also, Nomad's Requiem was highly debated, with many people complaining that the final battle required too many supplies and attempts for the majority. It seems to fit in with the staff of light uproar more than oppose it. Otherwise, excellent points about the past and how the release itself of the fire cape as well as clicking minigames went well.

Jagex learns from its past mistakes, and so the staff of light is to be accessible to many, it is not to be another item ready for manipulation by merchanting clans. The limitation of the fire cape amongst those with 93 slayer or more was something Jagex did not foresee in strangling the already bottle-necked supply of light staves.


I don't actually think the fire cape has much to do with this problem. The main limitation in accessibility is the fact that ice strykewyrms cannot be killed without a slayer task. This was an important update for slayers, but it does not make the staff of light nearly as accessible as the Amulet of Ranging; on the day of release, Aquanites were packed with approximately six times as many people as were needed to kill all the spawns on every world at max efficiency.

Also, merchanting clans have relatively little to do with accessibility; the staff of light WILL go up, and it WILL crash, as combat magic finds increasingly fewer uses; non-combat methods of training magic are vastly superior, and melee has found ways to kill every monster several times faster than magic can. Even with the fire cape requirement, 93 slayer is now a goal for almost everyone with good combat skills, and with the staff of light being a much more common drop than sigils in terms of possible kills per day (even with the task requirement - the confirmed drop rate places about one staff drop for every other task) and less useful than spirit shields, it will never be harder to find than even arcane and spectral spirit shields.

Yes, it's supposed to be questing. the intelligent reader understands i see :D

Nomad's requiem did not lead to an accessabillity debate, which it should have, which is the founding argument. The complaints were rants, not progressive directed posts in the same way seen with the staff of light.

Knowing more than 30 93+ slayers, only about half of them have firecapes. I can assure you the firecape requirement is a very limiting factor. That may surprise you, just as it seems to have surprised jagex.

Merchanting has all to do with the usability of the item: if it becomes too expensive, it becomes a merchanting item, and these are horded, flipped and manipulated by merchants as individuals, teams and clans. Therefore their accessability is limited with increased rarity. Obvisouly it will never be harder than spirit shields, but the position may resemble other rare items, such as santa hats, that have had a mysterious rise for little reason, leading those who have them to hold on to them more, thus restricing supply and diminishing Santa's impact on the game.

#22
jettrider
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Knowing more than 30 93+ slayers, only about half of them have firecapes. I can assure you the firecape requirement is a very limiting factor. That may surprise you, just as it seems to have surprised jagex.

Merchanting has all to do with the usability of the item: if it becomes too expensive, it becomes a merchanting item, and these are horded, flipped and manipulated by merchants as individuals, teams and clans. Therefore their accessability is limited with increased rarity. Obvisouly it will never be harder than spirit shields, but the position may resemble other rare items, such as santa hats, that have had a mysterious rise for little reason, leading those who have them to hold on to them more, thus restricing supply and diminishing Santa's impact on the game.


Thanks for clearing that up (I think the Nomad part would be clearer if you mentioned the cape reward), and as for this part...

At TSG (The Slayer's Guild) there was a seven page debate about the ice strykewyrm. The consensus seemed to be that the fire cape requirement was a fine addition and that its removal was a bad move. This is of course a biased group, a group that lamented the changes to extreme potions. However, it was encouraging that most of the high leveled slayers in the clan, most notably two leaders with millions of experience past 99, went back to the caves after many failures to try again instead of immediately complaining. I think that with the new prayers, combat items, potions, and the like, that 50% of 93+ slayers without the fire cape will drop. Remember, in recent history with trimmed skillcapes and then Soul Wars capes there has been increasingly little reason to spend time and effort obtaining a fire cape - now there is (was)!

On to the merchanting part...

Flipping items and temporarily hoarding items has no long term effect on the price of those items. The problem would be, as you mentioned, the use of these staves as an alternate currency as holiday items, mint cakes (in the past), blood talismans, mjolnirs, and divine/elysian spirit shields are currently being used. However, each of these items had something unique about them:
  • Holiday items cannot be created.
  • Mjolnirs can only ever be obtained once per paying member.
  • Mint cakes could be obtained once by every member and then obtained only as a very rare reward from a forgotten minigame.
  • Blood talismans can only be obtained once by every (high-level) member and then obtained only as an uncommon reward from a surprisingly profitable, yet unknown, "minigame"
  • Divine/Elysian sigils are the two rarest probability drops from the hardest monster to kill in the game (in terms of personal drops per hour).
The staff of light does not fit any of these criteria. You do indeed need to be high leveled to get it as a drop, but you can get an unlimited number if you just keep training slayer (this is why blood talismans will never go past about 500k market price, because burning corpses would become extremely profitable). You could argue that its comparative rarity to the amulet of ranging or the dark bow would keep its value well above the GE's capability to change prices, but as more people are motivated to get both Fire Capes and 93 slayer (especially those who already have fire capes), the incoming number of staves will exceed the incoming number of blood talismans or mjolnirs. Coupled with the fact that most people wouldn't pay nearly as much for a Staff of Light as they would for even an Elysian spirit shield, the price will crash eventually. 50m? 60m? Go ahead and guess, but the crash is inevitable.

2496 Completionist


#23
tortilliachp
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Thanks for clearing that up (I think the Nomad part would be clearer if you mentioned the cape reward), and as for this part...

At TSG (The Slayer's Guild) there was a seven page debate about the ice strykewyrm. The consensus seemed to be that the fire cape requirement was a fine addition and that its removal was a bad move. This is of course a biased group, a group that lamented the changes to extreme potions. However, it was encouraging that most of the high leveled slayers in the clan, most notably two leaders with millions of experience past 99, went back to the caves after many failures to try again instead of immediately complaining. I think that with the new prayers, combat items, potions, and the like, that 50% of 93+ slayers without the fire cape will drop. Remember, in recent history with trimmed skillcapes and then Soul Wars capes there has been increasingly little reason to spend time and effort obtaining a fire cape - now there is (was)!

On to the merchanting part...

Flipping items and temporarily hoarding items has no long term effect on the price of those items. The problem would be, as you mentioned, the use of these staves as an alternate currency as holiday items, mint cakes (in the past), blood talismans, mjolnirs, and divine/elysian spirit shields are currently being used. However, each of these items had something unique about them:

  • Holiday items cannot be created.
  • Mjolnirs can only ever be obtained once per paying member.
  • Mint cakes could be obtained once by every member and then obtained only as a very rare reward from a forgotten minigame.
  • Blood talismans can only be obtained once by every (high-level) member and then obtained only as an uncommon reward from a surprisingly profitable, yet unknown, "minigame"
  • Divine/Elysian sigils are the two rarest probability drops from the hardest monster to kill in the game (in terms of personal drops per hour).
The staff of light does not fit any of these criteria. You do indeed need to be high leveled to get it as a drop, but you can get an unlimited number if you just keep training slayer (this is why blood talismans will never go past about 500k market price, because burning corpses would become extremely profitable). You could argue that its comparative rarity to the amulet of ranging or the dark bow would keep its value well above the GE's capability to change prices, but as more people are motivated to get both Fire Capes and 93 slayer (especially those who already have fire capes), the incoming number of staves will exceed the incoming number of blood talismans or mjolnirs. Coupled with the fact that most people wouldn't pay nearly as much for a Staff of Light as they would for even an Elysian spirit shield, the price will crash eventually. 50m? 60m? Go ahead and guess, but the crash is inevitable.


Yes, i used to Know AxeManJack quite well back in the day beofre TSG became a fully fledged clan. Yes, the amount of 93+ slayers without the cape will drop, yet many are simply unable or unwilling to invest the time required without significant experience rewards. Slayers are notorious skillers after all.


your micro-economic analysis of the situation is valid, however on a macro-economic level the overall effects observed are different: valuable items worth more than about 7m have some special characteristics: people invest in them, buying when they are low, selling when they are high. This is because the price fluctuations are in the hundreds of thousands of GP, and the fluctuate quickly, for rapid profits.

Single merchants performing this kind of merchanting has little impact, yet there are alwyas many. On a macro-economic level the items trickle more slowly onto the market than otherwise, as they move from hand to hand between merchants. Supply is indeed limited in this way, and as more and more players strive towards killing icewyverns , the effect becomes more prominent.

The fewer staves there are in circulation, the large the impact of single merchanters, and as capital is limited, the effects are larger. The combined effect of single merchanters is what drives economic fluctuations and limitations in supply and demand in runescape, as on the real world economic markets. This is what is commonly refered to as trader-to-long-term invester liquidity.

#24
waheera1
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your micro-economic analysis of the situation is valid, however on a macro-economic level the overall effects observed are different: valuable items worth more than about 7m have some special characteristics: people invest in them, buying when they are low, selling when they are high. This is because the price fluctuations are in the hundreds of thousands of GP, and the fluctuate quickly, for rapid profits.

Single merchants performing this kind of merchanting has little impact, yet there are alwyas many. On a macro-economic level the items trickle more slowly onto the market than otherwise, as they move from hand to hand between merchants. Supply is indeed limited in this way, and as more and more players strive towards killing icewyverns , the effect becomes more prominent.

The fewer staves there are in circulation, the large the impact of single merchanters, and as capital is limited, the effects are larger. The combined effect of single merchanters is what drives economic fluctuations and limitations in supply and demand in runescape, as on the real world economic markets. This is what is commonly refered to as trader-to-long-term invester liquidity.


You're missing one crucial point here I think: the number of staves is only ever going to INCREASE. There is almost no way that the circulation of these single items can be stymied to the extent that you seem to suggest. There are in excess of 18000 players with the required slayer level and since the fire cape blocker will soon become invalid with the introduction of a purchasable reward from slayer masters, the likelihood is that the market will end up being flooded. Short term of course you're exactly right - just look at the dragon pickaxe and other recent high level equipment to see how EVERY new release undergoes a massive spike before settling to reasonable levels. However, the key point is that all "useful" items eventually settle to reasonable levels, rendering them less useful as a currency tool owing to the susceptibility to price fluctations relating to the constant ebb and flow of supply and demand. As Jettrider pointed out, the most common currency replacements are/were all items that were a) subject to a very limited supply, and B) useless. By and large nobody wanted or needed those items, thus the price could easily be manipulated to suit the levels required to create a sustainable currency without the meddling of genuine players. Introduce a hypothetically infinite supply of an item that people want and you effectively destroy the system whereby the items can be manipulated to stay high valued.

#25
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your micro-economic analysis of the situation is valid, however on a macro-economic level the overall effects observed are different: valuable items worth more than about 7m have some special characteristics: people invest in them, buying when they are low, selling when they are high. This is because the price fluctuations are in the hundreds of thousands of GP, and the fluctuate quickly, for rapid profits.

Single merchants performing this kind of merchanting has little impact, yet there are always many. On a macro-economic level the items trickle more slowly onto the market than otherwise, as they move from hand to hand between merchants. Supply is indeed limited in this way, and as more and more players strive towards killing icewyverns , the effect becomes more prominent.

The fewer staves there are in circulation, the large the impact of single merchanters, and as capital is limited, the effects are larger. The combined effect of single merchanters is what drives economic fluctuations and limitations in supply and demand in runescape, as on the real world economic markets. This is what is commonly refered to as trader-to-long-term invester liquidity.


Forgive me for commenting without serious training in economics, but I disagree with the idea that all this will affect accessibility. As waheera1 said, there will always be more of these items coming into the game. The fluctuations will be greater in magnitude (though reading the long-term graphs of valuable gear tends to be misleading because of general inflation), but at no point do these items, after the initial crash, become unbuyable for extended periods of time. During the times when everything is going up they are still buyable, albeit above the medium price. When they temporarily lose a little bit in price, everyone has a chance to buy one instantly for below the medium price.

The only time that fluctuations affect accessibility is when they are bought out permanently (used as an alternate form of currency, which I discussed earlier) or temporarily. Temporary hoarding is unimportant for two reasons; first, higher end items (bandos armor, dragon claws) tend to be bought out less because many of the small constituents of clan chats are unable to afford more than a handful. Second, hundreds of pieces of equipment have been bought out temporarily at some point in their post-GE existence, but they always crash. Nothing important has been hoarded for an overly long period of time, because every significant piece of equipment has, like the staff of light, a renewable source. Once the item gets too high in price, the monsters that drop it tend to be killed more often by those who want a higher hourly profit rate, or a group in the clan (usually the leaders) want to cash in before telling everyone else they've sold the item.

2496 Completionist


#26
platinum1004
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i love you for this topic

it resonates with my own feelings

i am 99 slayer, i do have a firecape. when i was slaying most slayers had a firecape due to its advantages - you take everyone you can get

non firecape owners at this level are usually down to a dislike of jad (not inability to do) or giving up after a couple of attempts

jad with todays equipment pots food etc is relatively easy, a lvl 93 slayer has made piles of money to do this (unless they bought their account perhaps)

slow connections and disabilities were predominantly made up excuses to try to influence jagex without saying in truth - i cant be bothered to do this


if jagex wanted more staffs they would make these campable, they would make the tasks more readily available either by increasing chance directly or indirectly by allowing more blocking for higher levels

incidently i havent had an ice task yet as i blew all my points on getting 99

i absolutely love the way that jagex are linking the game more - they did it with skills and quests - why not other content





#27
tortilliachp
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Macro-economically is where things get interesting, because you have to assess a trend accross a population. It may seem insignificant for supply, but a portion of supply always remains with the merchanters at any given point. This is how supply is restricted, and the more popular an item becomes with merchanters, the more restricted it is.


but back to the main point at hand: why are so few people discussing this article of the tip.it times? :P


New evidence emerges that the distribution of the Ice wyrm tasks, and the accessability of the staff of light are the main concern:

Duradel now has a small chance of giving ice strykewyrms as a task, but they're quite uncommon. Kuradal is still your best bet by far if you want to fight them.


Clearly all 93+ slayers are wanted by Jagex to fight the wyrms. :)

#28
quelmotz
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A very good article.

Although I'm not a member or anything, I agree wholeheartedly with the concept.

Skills are mostly a measure of reading guides and pure persistence (and also a lot about how long you spend on the computer)...

Whereas minigames, puzzles, etc are good "equalizers" since they require actual skill to think and such to complete them/do well in them. With these, no idiot who grinds on the game 10 hours a day can accomplish everything. Whereas a intelligent person who might not have that much time on his hands but still has decent skill levels can beat the quests.

#29
Hawks
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Decent article, I miss having lots of them though. I do enjoy reading them, although I don't play RS much anymore...

#30
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I realize that this was before the compromise, but come ON....

"It wasn’t long before the next shoe dropped, and Strykewyrms were introduced, forcing players to defeat Jad before enjoying the battle with the new, most lucrative slayer monster in the history of the game. While other skills were complemented with minigames before (Thieving, Cooking, and the Stealing Creation-driven skills come to mind), this prerequisite activity adds a new dimension, and perhaps irritating requirement, to the game itself."


What person with 93 Slayer doesn't have a fire cape?


I'm almost 92 slayer and I don't have one. There are 2 reasons why :

1) the Tzaar caves design and colour scheme gives me a headache after a while (the main reason)

2) I don't like mingames - the only ones I've played are those that are required for quests, achievement diaries etc.

However, if the requirement had remained I would have suffered and got a fire cape just to have full access to all slayer creatures.

#31
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Macro-economically is where things get interesting, because you have to assess a trend accross a population. It may seem insignificant for supply, but a portion of supply always remains with the merchanters at any given point. This is how supply is restricted, and the more popular an item becomes with merchanters, the more restricted it is.


but back to the main point at hand: why are so few people discussing this article of the tip.it times? :P


Well I think we'll have to agree to disagree on how much effect this theory has on RuneScape - looking at Bandos armor's accessibility just makes it hard for me to believe the staff of light will go a completely different direction.

Few people are discussing the times article because yours was so much more in depth and because there are more heated debates about the topic elsewhere.

2496 Completionist


#32
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Macro-economically is where things get interesting, because you have to assess a trend accross a population. It may seem insignificant for supply, but a portion of supply always remains with the merchanters at any given point. This is how supply is restricted, and the more popular an item becomes with merchanters, the more restricted it is.


but back to the main point at hand: why are so few people discussing this article of the tip.it times? :P


Well I think we'll have to agree to disagree on how much effect this theory has on RuneScape - looking at Bandos armor's accessibility just makes it hard for me to believe the staff of light will go a completely different direction.

Few people are discussing the times article because yours was so much more in depth and because there are more heated debates about the topic elsewhere.


^ What Jettrider said. Forget the fancy economics-based language and just see the light (pun intended). :-P

#33
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I really like the way other tasks, besides skills, can gain you more access to content. It can set you apart from the rest of the crowd. I love slayer and, even though I've only done the fight caves once (for the diary) and I'm very scared of actually taking on Jad :P, I think it was a legitimate requirement! I'm kind of sad that they decided to change it. And it's too late to go back to the way things were, now. Is this the way it will always be? Complainers and whiners will always ruin the little challenge that's actually in the game? :(

Whenever I decide to get members back, I just might try for a firecape. I'm nowhere near 93 slayer, but it would be a worthy achievement anyways, and the +4 attack on these worms wouldn't hurt either.
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#34
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I realize that this was before the compromise, but come ON....

"It wasn’t long before the next shoe dropped, and Strykewyrms were introduced, forcing players to defeat Jad before enjoying the battle with the new, most lucrative slayer monster in the history of the game. While other skills were complemented with minigames before (Thieving, Cooking, and the Stealing Creation-driven skills come to mind), this prerequisite activity adds a new dimension, and perhaps irritating requirement, to the game itself."


What person with 93 Slayer doesn't have a fire cape?


Apparantly there were a lot of 93+ slayers who are in too poor health to kill jad, or whos computers are too crappy to get to him. And it was extremely unfair of Jagex to put that requirement [/sarcasm]

But we all know that they were too lazy to try, and too lazy to put the effort into learning the fight when they failed

#35
gompo
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well, i know i am in the minority, but here is my 2 cents worth.

i cant do several of the recent updates. i am neither real life skilled enough and am still on dial-up.

i do not play runescape for the reasons listed so far. i play because i am one of the disabled unfortunate few that enjoys runescapes clicking skills. i am old school RPGer and i look at RS in the same manner i played them. i earn skill levels, i expect to have access to the activities i have earned.

i can not imagine playing many of the games available out there that do require RL skills and a decent internet connection, so i play runescape.

i have tried jad several times before the "requirement" and made it to him a few times, i admit, i may have been able to beat him.....eventually.

in the time i will advance my skill levels to a level that i might be able to beat him, i get to put up with all the wonderful titles from players at 20-30 or more combat levels lower than i am. i admit it, most players are better at "quick" reactions, knowing the "proper" way to attack, and may not need to deal with the inconvienient white screen. but there are many other games that those players could excell at, runescape was a game i could play. nomad has made my thoughts of getting my quest cape back a fantasy and nothing i can do will change that. heck, the -1 hit has not made me the least bit happy. i cant imagine why there are skill levels if no matter what your hit point level is, you can get hit for -1. so even if i work hard "clicking" and get 99 in hitpoints, i could still get hit -1. seems strange to me, the better you get at something, the harder it becomes.

i tried to make squirk juice, i couldnt. it took me 5+ hours to steal the gout tubar (or whatever it was) from that darn troll maze, jad was put off for more levels and even then i didnt expect to win. soul wars, i guess i played the one time needed, i just dont remember staying for the end. i just remeber the herky jerky movement that is so enjoyable.

i havent worried about the firecape as i am no where near the slayer level to get one. i am not a mercher so i could care less about how much something is (i have 1,5 million in my bank right now :thumbsup: ), i am a rarity, i like to click, i like to play a game that i earn levels and that determines wether or not i am able to do sommething in the game. if i wanted to compete with others who are better at real life reactions and better internet connections, i can promise i would be able to find a much more enjoyable game than runescape. and i would play against people who were able to compete against me rather than revil in the fact that they can do something that i am unable to do.

i know, runescape is trying to compete with all those other "high profile" bang them up fast moving games, i just wish they wouldnt, isnt there enough of those type of games as it is?

No matter where you go, there you are.



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#36
nurserymaid
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i am a rarity, i like to click, i like to play a game that i earn levels and that determines wether or not i am able to do sommething in the game.

The thing is though that this is not the case. Just having the levels alone has not, for a long time (if ever), given us the right to do everything that level allows, quests and mini games have opened up new content. For example, try fishing for monks without Swan Song, or catching a leaping salmon without Barbarian Training, the appropriate fishing level alone does not allow you to do either.

As for you particular problems, Nomad will get easier in that he will become more familiar, strategies will be refined and agreed best techniques will, over time, be established. For Jad, you may find when you have more levels you can do what I did and nuke him, (turmoil, overload, veng & d claw specs), the fight was over in seconds - I didn't have time to click anything other than my special bar before he was dead.
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#37
tortilliachp
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reading this topic, and all the others, i can't help but ask myself: if Jad was a quest, would there be rantings?

I think player greed " i have a right to do this and that" with only a level, ignoring the fact that a lot of game content requires quests, has reached new level.

you have no right to anthing, be you 99 slayer, 200m hunter xp, or whatever. Jagex gives you the right to participate in its content. that is something to be humble about.

#38
nurserymaid
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reading this topic, and all the others, i can't help but ask myself: if Jad was a quest, would there be rantings?

I think player greed " i have a right to do this and that" with only a level, ignoring the fact that a lot of game content requires quests, has reached new level.

you have no right to anthing, be you 99 slayer, 200m hunter xp, or whatever. Jagex gives you the right to participate in its content. that is something to be humble about.

Interesting thought, what if the requirement had been a Soul Wars cape? ;) (Either way though, the mini game precedent was set with mithril dragons and Barb Training, also something conveniently forgotten by many of the people complaining.)
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#39
Earth_Poet
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Earth_Poet

    Scorpion Pit

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you have no right to anthing, be you 99 slayer, 200m hunter xp, or whatever. Jagex gives you the right to participate in its content. that is something to be humble about.


I was agreeing with you up to this point, then I shook my head. Paying customers do not bow down and act grateful for the privilege of giving them money to play the game no matter what. If members aren't happy and get tired of it, then they stop being members.
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#40
tortilliachp
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tortilliachp

    Hobgoblin Killer

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you have no right to anthing, be you 99 slayer, 200m hunter xp, or whatever. Jagex gives you the right to participate in its content. that is something to be humble about.


I was agreeing with you up to this point, then I shook my head. Paying customers do not bow down and act grateful for the privilege of giving them money to play the game no matter what. If members aren't happy and get tired of it, then they stop being members.



you pay for a service, you get what you pay for. I shake my head right back at you, paying customers in no company directly decide what company strategy is. That is a privalige reserved for shareholders. Paying customers, be they happy that something is on sale, or that their favorite shoe now comes in their favorite color, whatever, they have no influence on the company, and can only be happy that the company has chosen to do something they like. Maybe humble the right word or phrase. *plays English is my second language card* Jagex may refuse the right, as any other establisment, to serve any customer for any reason, that is their right. Jagex develops the game, not you, they choose and decide, you recieve new content and play. heck, they could stop giving out new content and demand the same membership price for membership features if they like, not that they should, will, or it is morally acceptable - they could and you could do NOTHING about it.




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