Dungeoneering: Beyond the Release

[qeltar]

You should delve a little more deeply into what i write. Your louzy impretation of my words is what is wrong. You wrote it, stupidly, yourself, and as i'm a kind person i've bolded it for you to red more clearly. You can't be 5 people at once and thus there is ALWAYS sacrifices made within efficency. But you can be one person at once....

Well, I'm sorry if you feel I've misinterpreted what you wrote. Perhaps you can explain it a bit more clearly for me.

 

You seemed to be playing down the differences between solo and team play, while I (and pretty much everyone else) know they are very substantial.

 

I don't understand what's so strange about recieving a prim skirt? i have seen around 30 of those already and they aren't anything special, but still quite a few people bind them.

They do? Why? It gives worse stats than a promethium platebody, and binding both armor items mean you have no bound weapon. People do this? Not that I have ever seen.

 

It was just an example anyway. There are many other items that also never get bound because the system makes binding them a bad idea. They go to waste.

 

The boss monster drops are only there to be a source of t11 items not to collect them or anything

You kill them at the end of the floor, so if nobody is going to bind them because the binding system is stupid, what is the point of having them be a "source of t11 items" that almost never get used?

[AlexRose]

tyranno bovis are catcable with t5 traps so it really doesn't matter which trap you use. also i know the axe matters, but getting less than 2 logs is more than rare, even with novite, hatchets matter much less than pickaxes, and you don't need too many logs either. Mages can easily mage without a staff at all so weapons come exceptionally easy for them if you want to use it as secondary. I always make a bow for myself on large dungeons and it takes next to no time(can be done during other things) and needs 90 wc 99 fletch...but making an additional spear while ranging...you try that.

 

Well I've had rather different experiences with trees and Bovis, but I can see the point about the difference between making a bow and making a Spear. For magic, you'd still need at least some robes to be optimal (like you need melee armour to be optimal for meleeing), and fighting without a good staff would be like asking you to make a Katagon Spear rather than a Promethium; still functional, but just not as good as it could be. And of course, you do need that 77 runecrafting (unless you give up those Saggitarian arrows, of course). But ultimately, I now think you're right when saying melee is harder to set up. But not by miles.

 

They do? Why? It gives worse stats than a promethium platebody, and binding both armor items mean you have no bound weapon. People do this? Not that I have ever seen.

 

It was just an example anyway. There are many other items that also never get bound because the system makes binding them a bad idea. They go to waste.

 

Well, people wih 99 smithing do sometimes opt for the Primal Skirt, figuring they can make the platebody later. But you're right, that was just an example. There are many others that do not see any usage at all...

[Obtaurian]

I have to agree with Alex and Queltar. I wont restate what they've said (kind of), but I have to say that even though you don't NEED more than a promethium spear and plate to get through a dungeon, it'd be really nice if we did have more options. It's way too one-dimensional as it is. I want to have an internal struggle every time I see a tier 11 boss drop, and I don't like that melee is -- as it is everywhere -- the most useful skill in Daemonheim.

 

Variety is a good thing.

[xpx]

@qeltar

 

How can you call me subjective when you describe things as stupid, poor and what else. I understand all the frustration you can feel because of binding, but maybe it's just you? You like the idea of binding items but see it as something else as jagex do, and the same way with the boss drops. Maybe, just maybe, those things are like they are because...they are supposed to be like this, and whatever you think it could be is a child of your imagination. Nothings broken, it's just you who want more from something that isn't supposed to give you more.

 

I said average, you said good, there is a subtle differance, and you aren't good( <_< ) enough to make the differance. Teaming means depending on 4 other people, whom you have to find. Also, there is hardly any guarantee that they don't log out before the mime room. there is also no guarantee they won't be ignorant jerks who will ruin your day. The price of the extra experiance seems quite balanced in my opinion. If you are average and your teammates are average, there is no reason at all to team.

[xxshady]

I wonder if the Party interface is also going to be getting a revamp? They didn't mention it in the blog but in recent interviews didn't Mod Mark talk about making it easier to group up with people and improving the party system?

[AlexRose]

How can you call me subjective when you describe things as stupid, poor and what else.

 

What words he uses has less to do than how he uses them. You can't judge subjectivity solely on word choice. No one on this thread is completely free from subjectivism, but some are more bound than others. In any case, it's pointless for either of you to argue the point. Just discuss the subject at hand and the facts, not the possible motivations behind their presentation.

 

 

 

I said average, you said good, there is a subtle differance, and you aren't good( ) enough to make the differance. Teaming means depending on 4 other people, whom you have to find. Also, there is hardly any guarantee that they don't log out before the mime room. there is also no guarantee they won't be ignorant jerks who will ruin your day. The price of the extra experiance seems quite balanced in my opinion. If you are average and your teammates are average, there is no reason at all to team.

 

EDIT: Disregard that, I see what you're challenging. But why do we assume that the solo player will have maximum effiency, and yet the teams will always have a crtical flaw? If we assume a team is nearly perfect, they can actually get upwards of 60-65k an hour (a team can complete a large in 40 minutes with about 42-45k a high dungeon). When we take flawed teams into that number, the gap widens.

[stonewall337]

The issue with binding is simple: there aren't enough slots. I don't consider this a problem because it makes the skill "too hard", but rather because it makes binding very bland. Because most players never get more than two slots, nearly everyone binds a spear/maul/2H and a platebody. Everything else goes to waste, and it's really boring. Most boss drops have a lifespan measured in seconds, and nearly all of the special Slayer items last only part of one floor if they even get picked up at all.

 

I have a proposed solution that this dev blog finally motivated me to write up, but this is getting off-topic so I'm not going to get into it here.

 

This is what I've been saying. I get a nice drop, but already have a prom spear bound. So I lose it. And since I kill the boss at the END of the dungeon, the item always goes to waste.

 

Perhaps make extra items bindable but they only last a certain number of floors.

[RSBDavid]

Couldn't they implement some concepts from the quest system to the solo-dungeoneering? I sent in a suggestion which involves using non-tangible checkpoints to save progress in a solo dungoneering raid. This would work similar to quests. When you do one thing inside of a quest, a checkpoint is saved on your player profile and when you come back, you pick up from where you left off.

[Obtaurian]

The issue with binding is simple: there aren't enough slots. I don't consider this a problem because it makes the skill "too hard", but rather because it makes binding very bland. Because most players never get more than two slots, nearly everyone binds a spear/maul/2H and a platebody. Everything else goes to waste, and it's really boring. Most boss drops have a lifespan measured in seconds, and nearly all of the special Slayer items last only part of one floor if they even get picked up at all.

 

I have a proposed solution that this dev blog finally motivated me to write up, but this is getting off-topic so I'm not going to get into it here.

 

This is what I've been saying. I get a nice drop, but already have a prom spear bound. So I lose it. And since I kill the boss at the END of the dungeon, the item always goes to waste.

 

Perhaps make extra items bindable but they only last a certain number of floors.

 

I have this exact suggestion on the RSOF right now. No one ever posts on it. :thumbdown:

[xpx]

I said average, you said good, there is a subtle differance, and you aren't good( ) enough to make the differance. Teaming means depending on 4 other people, whom you have to find. Also, there is hardly any guarantee that they don't log out before the mime room. there is also no guarantee they won't be ignorant jerks who will ruin your day. The price of the extra experiance seems quite balanced in my opinion. If you are average and your teammates are average, there is no reason at all to team.

 

EDIT: Disregard that, I see what you're challenging. But why do we assume that the solo player will have maximum effiency, and yet the teams will always have a crtical flaw? If we assume a team is nearly perfect, they can actually get upwards of 60-65k an hour (a team can complete a large in 40 minutes with about 42-45k a high dungeon). When we take flawed teams into that number, the gap widens.

Saying that dungeoneering is 65k a hour is similar to saying that summoning is 2m xp an hour, true, but flawed by logic. Teams are hampered by this inevitable loss of efficency bcause of what it is- a team. Not everyone are the Boston Celtics or the Los Angeles Lakers, there are always those New Jersy Nets lurking around... However good LeBron is, he can't do it all alone. However, when you are out for yourself, you can write your own destiny, and thus there are no hampering effects on your experiance other than yourself.

[qeltar]

I said average, you said good, there is a subtle differance, and you aren't good( <_< ) enough to make the differance. Teaming means depending on 4 other people, whom you have to find. Also, there is hardly any guarantee that they don't log out before the mime room. there is also no guarantee they won't be ignorant jerks who will ruin your day. The price of the extra experiance seems quite balanced in my opinion. If you are average and your teammates are average, there is no reason at all to team.

You're entitled to your opinion. It just happens to be contrary to the facts in this case.

 

Average players get more XP in teams. Good players get more XP in teams. And that's even taking into account the overhead issues, problems with teams and so forth.

 

Even a mediocre team of 5 on a large floor will get more XP than a typical good player soloing.

 

I agree that teams can be a pain, and that's why I recommend against bothering with teams for the low-level "rush" floors. But for the high-numbered large floors, teaming is generally effective, the overhead is a small percentage of time spent, and the XP is substantially higher. If you are only soloing, you're giving up a large amount of XP on each run. You're the only person I've ever encountered to even dispute this.

 

And by the way, I've done a large floor with a guy from my forum who is a top-ranked player, and I've seen what he can do. When he says he *averages* over 50k XP/hr across all floors in his team of high-leveled players, I believe him. These guys are efficiency freaks, and they would not be doing teams if there weren't a damned good reason for it.

[xpx]

I do believe and know that teams are better experiance, but not so overwhelmingly as most would say. On average, people who calculate how much xp they get an hour start the clock with the dungeon starting, and usually don't take into account the floors that they have failed or the floors that have taken 90 minutes(5:5 large). They don't take into account having to search for around 13 different teams trough 35 floors or that they can get very flustrated doing so. I don't deny 50k an hour xp is possible trough all floors, but that means 5 people living the same lives for 6 hours, which is rare to say the least. If people accurately described the experiance teaming, taking to accound all the drawbacks, 30k an hour experiance would be about the aveage, which is only a bit more than i can manage with soloing, saving myself all the trouble of human communication(the thing most seem to hate about dungeoneering, and to be clear, i don't).

 

The skill as we all know was never meant to be soloed, and implying, while taking all the beforementioned information into account, that soloing experiance should be increased is just childish. It's already good enough, in my opinion, that you are at all able to solo, and the fact that the experiance isn't at all terrible(well, it is terrible if you are really poor at it, as most people seem to be), it really is good enough as it is.(for the information of fact, i have timed myself to do 6,8 dungeons an hour with all doors opened, average -4 level mod and around 4,4k experiance per dungeon trough all floors, if you can't achieve atleast this then your propably doing something wrong)

[qeltar]

I do believe and know that teams are better experiance, but not so overwhelmingly as most would say. On average, people who calculate how much xp they get an hour start the clock with the dungeon starting, and usually don't take into account the floors that they have failed or the floors that have taken 90 minutes(5:5 large). They don't take into account having to search for around 13 different teams trough 35 floors or that they can get very flustrated doing so.

As I've already said at least twice, I am not talking about teaming all of the floors. I am talking about floors from 25 or 30 to 35, as the ones where it is a no-brainer to do teams. The overhead involved in getting these floors done in teams is very low relative to the time spent on them. And even with the occasional 90 minute floor (which is not typical) you *still* get a *lot* more XP than soloing.

 

It's already good enough, in my opinion, that you are at all able to solo, and the fact that the experiance isn't at all terrible(well, it is terrible if you are really poor at it, as most people seem to be), it really is good enough as it is.

25k XP/hr is pretty much the maximum practical solo XP over time, and that's pretty pathetic. In fact, it makes this close to the slowest skill in the game. Given the level 120 limit with 104 million XP, people have a valid complaint.

 

This will hopefully get better with batch 2, but there's no denying that right now, it's pretty darned slow.

 

(for the information of fact, i have timed myself to do 6,8 dungeons an hour with all doors opened, average -4 level mod and around 4,4k experiance per dungeon trough all floors, if you can't achieve atleast this then your propably doing something wrong)

No offense, but I find these numbers quite dubious. 6 high-numbered dungeons per hour solo on complexity 6 is pushing the bounds of believability, and 8 such dungeons per hour is well beyond it. I just now did floors 27 and 28 solo, and one took 15 minutes and the other 12 minutes. Even with a lot of luck, a 7.5 minute *average* for solo complexity 6 dungeons is IMO not credible.

 

Even if your numbers were true, though, they still aren't impressive in terms of an overall rate. If you're getting 4400 XP that's only 30K or so on the deeper floors, and you're going to get less on the low-numbered floors. At best you are going to average out at 25k XP per hour or so. People who do teams can easily get 60%, 75% or even greater XP premiums, even taking into account overhead and other hassles. That's a major difference, IMO.

[xpx]

I do believe and know that teams are better experiance, but not so overwhelmingly as most would say. On average, people who calculate how much xp they get an hour start the clock with the dungeon starting, and usually don't take into account the floors that they have failed or the floors that have taken 90 minutes(5:5 large). They don't take into account having to search for around 13 different teams trough 35 floors or that they can get very flustrated doing so.

As I've already said at least twice, I am not talking about teaming all of the floors. I am talking about floors from 25 or 30 to 35, as the ones where it is a no-brainer to do teams. The overhead involved in getting these floors done in teams is very low relative to the time spent on them. And even with the occasional 90 minute floor (which is not typical) you *still* get a *lot* more XP than soloing.

 

It's already good enough, in my opinion, that you are at all able to solo, and the fact that the experiance isn't at all terrible(well, it is terrible if you are really poor at it, as most people seem to be), it really is good enough as it is.

25k XP/hr is pretty much the maximum practical solo XP over time, and that's pretty pathetic. In fact, it makes this close to the slowest skill in the game. Given the level 120 limit with 104 million XP, people have a valid complaint.

 

This will hopefully get better with batch 2, but there's no denying that right now, it's pretty darned slow.

 

(for the information of fact, i have timed myself to do 6,8 dungeons an hour with all doors opened, average -4 level mod and around 4,4k experiance per dungeon trough all floors, if you can't achieve atleast this then your propably doing something wrong)

No offense, but I find these numbers quite dubious. 6 high-numbered dungeons per hour solo on complexity 6 is pushing the bounds of believability, and 8 such dungeons per hour is well beyond it. I just now did floors 27 and 28 solo, and one took 15 minutes and the other 12 minutes. Even with a lot of luck, a 7.5 minute *average* for solo complexity 6 dungeons is IMO not credible.

 

Even if your numbers were true, though, they still aren't impressive in terms of an overall rate. If you're getting 4400 XP that's only 30K or so on the deeper floors, and you're going to get less on the low-numbered floors. At best you are going to average out at 25k XP per hour or so. People who do teams can easily get 60%, 75% or even greater XP premiums, even taking into account overhead and other hassles. That's a major difference, IMO.

Ever heard of decimals? the number is 6,8 not 6 or 8, and yes, i did dungeons 1-14, then 16-35(had 15 done already) solo, p2p in 5 hours 1 minute, good for around 30k experiance an hour, and could have got more getting the top 5 floors done in 5:5 teams. All you do is talk and show absolutely no figures from which i understand that you just havn't thouroughly tested the experiance in teams, and 90% of the people i have seen posting figures about teaming only take into accound the time from the start of the dungeon to the time you kill the boss, and this over a maximum of 2 dungeons. In reality, it takes 10 minutes on average to find a team and none of these people account for the failiures. I know it's hard to fathom the effects of this while trying to time yourself dungeoneering, and people always try to show the best figures they can, but everyone with a little sence can see that teaming is much more of a hassle, and if you are only getting 10k xp an hour more(50k vs 40k) than you would do when you would solo 1-29 and do 30-35 in teams then you have to conclude, upon increasing solo xp the skill game would simply die.

 

I have no idea at all why you would compare the xp now to the maximum level of 120. we only have 60% of the skill, and the solo xp is bound to get above 100k an hour with b2. Everyone(well, everyone with half a brain) know getting 120 now is beyond stupid, and the only reason to do so is to get ahead and try to be first. As you can read from the 200m xp in all skills thread, none of the top players are even beyond 74 dungeoneering.

[qeltar]

Sorry, we don't use commas for decimals here so I didn't realize that was what you meant.

 

I don't have much more to say to you (nor do I really want to, given your obnoxious attitude). If you think getting less than 2/3 of the XP of teaming is not a big difference, good for you. Most people think that's pretty major. And that's giving you very big benefit of the doubt on your figures, which I find highly doubtful based on my own measurements. If you go fast, you skip a lot, and XP goes down. Get more XP, and floors per hour goes down. Under 9 minutes *and* 4400 XP average, even including the low-numbered floors? Dubious.

 

When batch 2 comes out, soloing will get faster, but without any other changes, teaming will get even *more* faster. There's also an advantage to getting your level up now, as you'll be able to get higher prestige figures when batch 2 comes out. So much for "half a brain". :rolleyes:

[xpx]

Sorry, we don't use commas for decimals here so I didn't realize that was what you meant.

 

I don't have much more to say to you (nor do I really want to, given your obnoxious attitude). If you think getting less than 2/3 of the XP of teaming is not a big difference, good for you. Most people think that's pretty major. And that's giving you very big benefit of the doubt on your figures, which I find highly doubtful based on my own measurements. If you go fast, you skip a lot, and XP goes down. Get more XP, and floors per hour goes down. Under 9 minutes *and* 4400 XP average, even including the low-numbered floors? Dubious.

 

When batch 2 comes out, soloing will get faster, but without any other changes, teaming will get even *more* faster. There's also an advantage to getting your level up now, as you'll be able to get higher prestige figures when batch 2 comes out. So much for "half a brain". :rolleyes:

What do you actually do with the higher prestige when you are 120 already? The anyone with half a brain statement implies that if you are more than 71 dungeoneering now, you've wasted atleast some of your time to, as i said, get ahead.

 

Practically what you are implying is that soloing should give more xp in a skill meant not to be soloed, but doing so would destroy the skill as it is. Do you really not think that there is a balance between the hassle with teaming and the lower xp while soloing? The differance is significant, as i've said, but for the average player, it's not dramatic. All that i've implied on this thread is that the balance jagex no doubt mastered before the release is very well thought out. I've enjoyed the skill mostly because i can interact with other, strange people in a way unlike any other skill, if you don't like that aspect of it, you have the viable option of soloing or the unfathomable option of not training the skill.

[Dragonlordjl]

Sorry, we don't use commas for decimals here so I didn't realize that was what you meant.

 

I don't have much more to say to you (nor do I really want to, given your obnoxious attitude). If you think getting less than 2/3 of the XP of teaming is not a big difference, good for you. Most people think that's pretty major. And that's giving you very big benefit of the doubt on your figures, which I find highly doubtful based on my own measurements. If you go fast, you skip a lot, and XP goes down. Get more XP, and floors per hour goes down. Under 9 minutes *and* 4400 XP average, even including the low-numbered floors? Dubious.

 

When batch 2 comes out, soloing will get faster, but without any other changes, teaming will get even *more* faster. There's also an advantage to getting your level up now, as you'll be able to get higher prestige figures when batch 2 comes out. So much for "half a brain". :rolleyes:

What do you actually do with the higher prestige when you are 120 already? The anyone with half a brain statement implies that if you are more than 71 dungeoneering now, you've wasted atleast some of your time to, as i said, get ahead.

 

Practically what you are implying is that soloing should give more xp in a skill meant not to be soloed, but doing so would destroy the skill as it is. Do you really not think that there is a balance between the hassle with teaming and the lower xp while soloing? The differance is significant, as i've said, but for the average player, it's not dramatic. All that i've implied on this thread is that the balance jagex no doubt mastered before the release is very well thought out. I've enjoyed the skill mostly because i can interact with other, strange people in a way unlike any other skill, if you don't like that aspect of it, you have the viable option of soloing or the unfathomable option of not training the skill.

 

Skills should not require a team in order to get decent experience.You get over 50% less experience per hour by soloing F25-35 instead of doing 5:5 larges. An exp drop-off that steep is simply bad design. And ignoring a problem doesn't make it not a problem. "Solo or gtfo if you don't like it" doesn't solve anything, and suggesting that just invalidates your own argument.

 

The reason teams get so much more exp is a combination of things:

 

1) You get a substantial exp modifier for choosing a large dungeon and for doing a 5:5 dungeon. You lose both of these solo.

 

2) More importantly, you lose MASSIVE prestige and floor exp because solo dungeons only have around 14-16 rooms to explore.

 

I think that adding a solo bonus of 1.5% times the current floor you're on (added to the bar at the bottom as part of your exp modifier) would help bring soloing much closer to doing large teams. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be better than teaming, but it'd actually be a viable option for those who dislike teaming or don't have the time to do large dungeons.

[qeltar]

What do you actually do with the higher prestige when you are 120 already? The anyone with half a brain statement implies that if you are more than 71 dungeoneering now, you've wasted atleast some of your time to, as i said, get ahead.

Obviously if you already get to 120 you gain nothing. But you were complaining that I was discussing the current XP rates for soloers in the context of levels over 99, and there *are* reasons to go over 99 even now. If I stop at level 74 until batch 2 comes out, I'll be training batch 2 unable to access 23 of the likely 25 new floors. If I get to level 100, I'll be only unable to access 10 of them. So it does matter that soloing is slow now. And it's not going to get any better *relative to teaming* unless Jagex changes it.

 

Practically what you are implying is that soloing should give more xp in a skill meant not to be soloed, but doing so would destroy the skill as it is.

Actually, I have not once said or implied this. I've said that I accept Jagex's decision to make this mainly a team skill. I simply disputed your implications that there wasn't that much of a loss in XP soloing.

 

The differance is significant, as i've said, but for the average player, it's not dramatic.

"Significant" but not "dramatic". I can't even begin to guess as to what that means. :)

[predator1030]

Sorry guys, this might be slightly off topic to what everyone is discussing but I was wondering,

 

Firstly a little story: I just lost my CLS in pvp. Stupid me, I killed a guy and picked up an armadyl totem right when a PJer attacked me and I had only 50 hp left. I ended up dieing and protecting the totem. Yeah I know i got severely owned, and it was entirely my fault for not safing up to full health, but its all good because I plan on quitting anyway until batch #2 comes out.

 

My question is, does Jagex plan on letting previous owners of chaotic weapons buy them back at a reduced price? I have no desire of grinding out another 50+ hours for the weapon, thus I am quitting until batch #2 comes out where there is faster xp.

 

I do not expect anyone to feel sorry for me, as I knew it was entirely my fault and I could of prevented the situation. But I am just wondering if Jagex has mentioned any information regarding my question. Cheers :P

[xpx]

 

Skills should not require a team in order to get decent experience.You get over 50% less experience per hour by soloing F25-35 instead of doing 5:5 larges. An exp drop-off that steep is simply bad design. And ignoring a problem doesn't make it not a problem. "Solo or gtfo if you don't like it" doesn't solve anything, and suggesting that just weakens your own argument.

 

The reason teams get so much more exp is a combination of things:

1) You get a substantial exp modifier for choosing a large dungeon and for doing a 5:5 dungeon. You lose both of these solo.

 

2) More importantly, you lose MASSIVE prestige and floor exp because solo dungeons only have around 14-16 rooms to explore.

 

I think that adding a solo bonus of 1.5% times the current floor you're on (added to the bar at the bottom as part of your exp modifier) would help bring soloing much closer to doing large teams. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be better than teaming, but it'd actually be a viable option for those who dislike teaming or don't have the time to do large dungeons.

There is no written rule about how a skill should best be trained, and jagex obviously wanted this skill to be best trained in a team, and as we can see from the complaints, they succeeded in doing so. It's not solo or gtfo, it's team, solo or gtfo, you make your choice.

 

If solo xp was was increased by a 150% multiplier the xp differance at the top end would get nearer to 5k an hour meaning that it'd be stupid to even consider teaming, thus killing the design of the skill. I'm genuinly baffled by the critisism to the teamingly concentration of the skill, after all it's just one skill and is very interesting for me to train a skill in this way. Atleast they are doing something to get all you loners off afking at a tangling vine to work together for the sake of better efficency.

 

My question is, does Jagex plan on letting previous owners of chaotic weapons buy them back at a reduced price? I have no desire of grinding out another 50+ hours for the weapon, thus I am quitting until batch #2 comes out where there is faster xp.

 

There has been no mention of this and more than likely, this is not the case.

 

The differance is significant, as i've said, but for the average player, it's not dramatic.

"Significant" but not "dramatic". I can't even begin to guess as to what that means. :)

 

I've already mentioned enough figures that i have myself tested. 30k an hour pure soloing, 40k an hour soloing 1-29, large dungeons 30-35, 35k an hour on an average team(5:5 small 1-24, 5:5 large 25-35), 50-55k an hour on a very good team(1-11 5:3 12-27 5:5 small 28-35 5:5 large, same team trourought the floors).

[All_Is_Great]

Why is this turning into an arguement about solo vs team again? I've read enough of those...

 

OT: REALLY REALLY excited for the construction update inside the dungeon, as I was very disappointed I couldn't put my favourite skill to good use in the dungeon. So what's it gonna be? Tier'd planks made out of the wood? That'd be awesome! Can't wait! Keep up the good work Jagex.

[AngraMania]

Sorry guys, this might be slightly off topic to what everyone is discussing but I was wondering,

 

Firstly a little story: I just lost my CLS in pvp. Stupid me, I killed a guy and picked up an armadyl totem right when a PJer attacked me and I had only 50 hp left. I ended up dieing and protecting the totem. Yeah I know i got severely owned, and it was entirely my fault for not safing up to full health, but its all good because I plan on quitting anyway until batch #2 comes out.

 

My question is, does Jagex plan on letting previous owners of chaotic weapons buy them back at a reduced price? I have no desire of grinding out another 50+ hours for the weapon, thus I am quitting until batch #2 comes out where there is faster xp.

 

I do not expect anyone to feel sorry for me, as I knew it was entirely my fault and I could of prevented the situation. But I am just wondering if Jagex has mentioned any information regarding my question. Cheers :P

 

I remember them saying they would look into it shortly after it came out.

[tortilliachp]

all the last 2-3 pages of "discussion" on this thread boil down to are that you either like solo activities or multiplayer activities.

 

all the arguments are subjectively based on whether one should be faster than the other, or if they should have the same efficiency at maximum.

 

i thought tip.it was capable of something more than that: like for instance quoting the jagex position on the issue, or their thoughts for how it will be after batch 2, when the skill is actually fully released.

[jettrider]

 

Skills should not require a team in order to get decent experience.You get over 50% less experience per hour by soloing F25-35 instead of doing 5:5 larges. An exp drop-off that steep is simply bad design. And ignoring a problem doesn't make it not a problem. "Solo or gtfo if you don't like it" doesn't solve anything, and suggesting that just weakens your own argument.

 

The reason teams get so much more exp is a combination of things:

1) You get a substantial exp modifier for choosing a large dungeon and for doing a 5:5 dungeon. You lose both of these solo.

 

2) More importantly, you lose MASSIVE prestige and floor exp because solo dungeons only have around 14-16 rooms to explore.

 

I think that adding a solo bonus of 1.5% times the current floor you're on (added to the bar at the bottom as part of your exp modifier) would help bring soloing much closer to doing large teams. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be better than teaming, but it'd actually be a viable option for those who dislike teaming or don't have the time to do large dungeons.

There is no written rule about how a skill should best be trained, and jagex obviously wanted this skill to be best trained in a team, and as we can see from the complaints, they succeeded in doing so. It's not solo or gtfo, it's team, solo or gtfo, you make your choice.

 

If solo xp was was increased by a 150% multiplier the xp differance at the top end would get nearer to 5k an hour meaning that it'd be stupid to even consider teaming, thus killing the design of the skill. I'm genuinly baffled by the critisism to the teamingly concentration of the skill, after all it's just one skill and is very interesting for me to train a skill in this way. Atleast they are doing something to get all you loners off afking at a tangling vine to work together for the sake of better efficency.

 

Better efficiency. Let's talk about that.

 

You have mentioned that your (semi-believable) soloing rates are for players with high efficiency and that teams are horribly inefficient. This is the crux of the problem. This skill rewards players for being INEFFICIENT whereas the exact opposite is true of every other skill. Playing large dungeons in 5 man teams for the majority of your time spent dungeoneering forces you to ally yourself to quite a few morons, even among the higher levels gathered in world 117. Yet playing in a team and completing a dungeon at all - even if it takes you twice as long or more as an efficient team - guarantees you higher rates than the fastest possible rates soloing.

 

There is nothing wrong with a skill that rewards team efficiency more than solo efficiency. There is something wrong with a skill that rewards team inefficiency over solo efficiency. The effects are not as obvious right now because the skill is still relatively new, and they will forever be dulled because - as you mentioned - dungeoneering is only one skill. I can wait to train it only during peak hours when finding a team is easy. It's very unpleasant however, and it's an absolute joke to say that soloing this skill the whole time as a training method accomplishes anything exp-wise.

 

 

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The differance is significant, as i've said, but for the average player, it's not dramatic.

"Significant" but not "dramatic". I can't even begin to guess as to what that means. :)

 

I've already mentioned enough figures that i have myself tested. 30k an hour pure soloing, 40k an hour soloing 1-29, large dungeons 30-35, 35k an hour on an average team(5:5 small 1-24, 5:5 large 25-35), 50-55k an hour on a very good team(1-11 5:3 12-27 5:5 small 28-35 5:5 large, same team trourought the floors).

 

This is the problem right here.

 

First, 30k experience soloing the whole way is a bloated rate. It's rounding up from the maximum numbers that you threw out here, probably rounded up themselves.

 

Second, I don't think anyone is questioning that soloing the low floors - whether on complexity 6 or rushing them - is a legitimate strategy. The problem arises when you try to use experience rates from doing floors 30-35 large (which should be the majority of your time spent training no matter what solo method you use) as an argument for being able to solo the skill. Under that scenario, soloing is the minority.

 

Third, the 35k hour on an average team is a made-up, rounded down number. You can't compare the best possible soloing rates to the average (which you have slashed about 10k/hour off of) as your argument.

 

 

 

It's not opinion on whether or not teaming is a good or bad thing. It's that the skill rewards players for teaming even if they display no teamwork whatsoever. We have teams that are all over the place, arguing with each other, being inefficient or inconsiderate; yet these teams are getting much higher experience rates ("significant," to quote you) than the most efficient of soloers.

 

Just as a player should be rewarded with faster experience for playing efficiently, a team should be rewarded for playing more efficiently than five individual players could alone. But if they play incredibly inefficiently, acting as individuals, then they should get the same experience as a solo player could.

[Triquos]

It all sounds good, but Jagex have a tendency to get your hopes up and then crush them when the update comes out and it's not what you expected. So sorry, but this time I'm not getting my hopes up. Until dungeoneering is updated and I see it for myself, that will be the proof in the pudding. I'm still not encouraged enough to train this minigame of a 'skill'.