All you seem to be able to do is blame other people.

This is a rather childish comment. Everyone "blames other people" when they feel they have done something wrong. You certainly do.

 

Firstly, donating money means very little. You don't donate to be proud of it and use it in an argument, you do it because it's the right thing to do. Second, money is not relevent to this conversation.

It's entirely relevant. Because Israel's continued existence depends on financial support, and that in turn depends on Israel behaving in a moral and responsible manner.

 

When they commit immoral, irresponsible acts, they make people less likely to support them.

 

I also offer it up to show that I am not an Israel-hater -- far from it.

 

Third, Bush Is leading? Bush isn't president anymore Charles, Obama is.

I'm referring to Netanyahu, who is basically the George W. Bush of Israel in his attitude and behavior.

 

What you've seen over the last two weeks embarrasses you?

I've explained it numerous times. Re-read the thread if your memory fails you.

 

People have different opinions, but if you ever try to take my opinion about how I feel about my country, then I truly lost all respect for you Charles.

How can I "take your opinion"? I don't have to respect it, however, when it is based on false claims and blind loyalty.

 

Unfortunatly, coming from a 14 year old, this whole post means nothing to you.

Your posts mean little to me because they are high on emotion and low on facts and logical reasoning. For example, trying to downplay the importance of American financial support -- it's laughably silly and shows just how little you really understand about the complexities of this issue.

 

I give you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that your poorly considered posts are because of your age, so there is time for you to educate yourself. There are many adults who fall into the same category, and that's a lot worse.

 

What do you define as "support"? Undying love for Israel that means they can do w/e the [bleep] they want?

Unfortunately, that is *exactly* what they mean and *exactly* what they want: unflinching, unswerving obedience from the American government and American Jewry.

 

Hell, I'm surprised I'm not already being called a "self-hating Jew" for the posts I've made in this thread. It's a standard tactic.

[Hell, I'm surprised I'm not already being called a "self-hating Jew" for the posts I've made in this thread.

 

That's like calling someone Hiltar. How low do you think of us that you'd have to be surprised that noone called you that?

I wasn't aware that you were Jewish, qeltar. It's a popular term used, though. Matthew Yglesias, Max Blumenthal, Glenn Greenwald, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, and really any liberal Jew is called "self-hating" or a terrorist sympathizer. Hell, I've even seen Rahm Emanuel called a self-hating Jew because he's serving the President and trying to get a peace deal.

 

It's just like when so called "moderates" attempt to marginalize "extremists" without actually looking at what they believe. Or like in this recent example, saying that Israel was acting out of self-defense against "terrorists." Somehow it's been accepted in American discourse that Israel was the victim here, and that the activists were the aggressor; even though 9-19 people have been killed by the supposed victim. It's just the same old tribal instincts, and another problem with nationalism.

 

The nationalism in Sri Lanka prevents it from investigating war crimes against the Tamils, the nationalism in Sudan prevents a real inquiry into Darfur (although China has a lot to do with that, also), the nationalism in Pakistan prevents a real inquiry into the 1971 genocide of 3 million Bengalis and the violence against Kashmiri Hindus, the nationalism in Turkey prevents acknowledging the Armenian Genocide, the nationalism in America prevents condemnation of civilian killings in Iraq and Afghanistan and propping up dictators throughout the world, the nationalism in Japan prevents acknowledging the hideous crimes committed against the Chinese before and during WWII (14 million civilian deaths), the nationalism in the UK and France and Spain prevents it from fully acknowledging the evils of imperialism, the fanaticism of fundamentalist Christians prevents them from acknowledging the cultural genocide Christianity has wrought on many parts of the world, the nationalism in Australia prevents a proper policy and acknowledgment of crimes against Aboriginals, the nationalism by the Chinese prevents an acknowledgement of oppression against the Tibetans, etc. I could go on for days, but I think I've made my point.

 

Nationalism in a lot of places prevents the proper acknowledgement of wrongdoing, oppression, and genocide. God, I hate nationalism, and that is the reason I am against Zionism.

Lol. Do tell, sir or madam, what looks fake about it? Are you so blinded that you can't accept the video proof right in front of your eyes? I don't know who died in this video, but the one thing that is absolutely undeniable is the fact that the IDF soldier is armed with a rifle (@0:16s), not a paint gun nor a 9mm pistol, as the IDF has repeatedly claimed. Frikkin' liars.

 

I am not blinded you are as i said i rifle/ 9mm pistol would have had a flash meaning that the is a paintball gun not a gun.

 

 

This is a rather childish comment. Everyone "blames other people" when they feel they have done something wrong. You certainly do.

 

Yes who is he blaming?

 

It's entirely relevant. Because Israel's continued existence depends on financial support, and that in turn depends on Israel behaving in a moral and responsible manner.

 

When they commit immoral, irresponsible acts, they make people less likely to support them.

 

I also offer it up to show that I am not an Israel-hater -- far from it.

 

Israel doesn't need the money. What immoral, irresponsible acts did Israel do stop a flotilla from entering a navel blockade set up to stop hamas of acquiring weapons to kill Israelis

 

I'm referring to Netanyahu, who is basically the George W. Bush of Israel in his attitude and behavior.

 

Netanyahu is not like bush he has done nothing wrong he is defending Israel from terrorist threats

 

I've explained it numerous times. Re-read the thread if your memory fails you.

 

The flotilla? It is something Turkey should be embarrassed from not Israel

 

How can I "take your opinion"? I don't have to respect it, however, when it is based on false claims and blind loyalty.

 

Our claims our not false i have shown you proof in almost all my post.

 

Your posts mean little to me because they are high on emotion and low on facts and logical reasoning. For example, trying to downplay the importance of American financial support -- it's laughably silly and shows just how little you really understand about the complexities of this issue.

I give you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that your poorly considered posts are because of your age, so there is time for you to educate yourself. There are many adults who fall into the same category, and that's a lot worse.

 

his post are high on emotion and high on facts.

 

 

What do you define as "support"? Undying love for Israel that means they can do w/e the [bleep] they want?

Unfortunately, that is *exactly* what they mean and *exactly* what they want: unflinching, unswerving obedience from the American government and American Jewry.

 

Hell, I'm surprised I'm not already being called a "self-hating Jew" for the posts I've made in this thread. It's a standard tactic.

 

That is not at all what we want.

More anti-Israel propaganda!:

 

As Israel ordered a slight easing of its blockade of the Gaza Strip Wednesday, McClatchy obtained an Israeli government document that describes the blockade not as a security measure but as economic warfare against the Islamist group Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory.

 

Israel imposed severe restrictions on Gaza in June 2007, after Hamas won elections and took control of the coastal enclave after winning elections there the previous year, and the government has long said that the aim of the blockade is to stem the flow of weapons to militants in Gaza.

 

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html#ixzz0qSOTiCqD

 

Does this mean we get to stop pretending this is about blocking weapons?

More anti-Israel propaganda!:

 

As Israel ordered a slight easing of its blockade of the Gaza Strip Wednesday, McClatchy obtained an Israeli government document that describes the blockade not as a security measure but as economic warfare against the Islamist group Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory.

 

Israel imposed severe restrictions on Gaza in June 2007, after Hamas won elections and took control of the coastal enclave after winning elections there the previous year, and the government has long said that the aim of the blockade is to stem the flow of weapons to militants in Gaza.

 

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html#ixzz0qSOTiCqD

 

Does this mean we get to stop pretending this is about blocking weapons?

 

Even if it was used an economic welfare, it still blocked weapons. I'm not saying what the government did was okay, but there will most likely be a change soon.

Even if it was used an economic welfare, it still blocked weapons.

You post things like this and then expect people to respect what you have to say? Boggle.

Even if it was used an economic welfare, it still blocked weapons.

You post things like this and then expect people to respect what you have to say? Boggle.

 

Okay, please show me how it did not stop weapons from passing on ships? I NEVER said it was right to do it for an economic purpose, all I said was that it still served a function. Once again, you twist peoples' words.

Even if it was used an economic welfare, it still blocked weapons.

You post things like this and then expect people to respect what you have to say? Boggle.

 

Okay, please show me how it did not stop weapons from passing on ships? I NEVER said it was right to do it for an economic purpose, all I said was that it still served a function.

Yes, but this is not an honest or intelligent treatment of the issue. The entire point of bringing up the "economic welfare" aspect is to argue against the Israeli contention that the reason for the blockade was to block weapons. Even if weapons are also blocked, if that's not the primary purpose of the embargo, then the point is made.

 

When you argue like this, you cause people to lose respect for your posts, because you are either playing games to avoid conceding a point, or you don't even understand what the argument is about.

Even if it was used an economic welfare, it still blocked weapons.

You post things like this and then expect people to respect what you have to say? Boggle.

 

Okay, please show me how it did not stop weapons from passing on ships? I NEVER said it was right to do it for an economic purpose, all I said was that it still served a function.

Yes, but this is not an honest or intelligent treatment of the issue. The entire point of bringing up the "economic welfare" aspect is to argue against the Israeli contention that the reason for the blockade was to block weapons. Even if weapons are also blocked, if that's not the primary purpose of the embargo, then the point is made.

 

When you argue like this, you cause people to lose respect for your posts, because you are either playing games to avoid conceding a point, or you don't even understand what the argument is about.

 

Elaborate.

For example, trying to downplay the importance of American financial support -- it's laughably silly and shows just how little you really understand about the complexities of this issue.

as i feel responsible for this debate to come up just want to note that this is exactly what i didn't want to happen - to appear as some sort of ungratefull ignorent [bleep].

I've choose my words carefully (perhaps not enough?) when i wrote what i wrote few pages back.

I just wanted to point out to the new Historians back there that the dynamics were different back then.and they were.

And sure US was there for us right from the begining no one can questioned that.

 

I give you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that your poorly considered posts are because of your age,

yep, the age factor plays a big role and i do think that as an adult you should have been less harsh on this kids/teenageers (though i can understand where you were coming from).

 

And what I've seen over the last couple of weeks has utterly embarrassed me.

and how do you think people like me, an average Israeli with a family to take care of, who saw my country wasting our last coins of world sympathy with that stupid incedent feels today? not too good i can tell you that. deeply deppressed and deeply worried about our future.and there are many like me who feels the same way.

 

side note, The Pixies, my all time favorite band whom i was waiting 20 years to see, canceled their show in Israel in the last minute due to these events and honestly, i look deep inside and still i cant be angry at them for making this decision. This is how the world sees us this days.

 

I love my country for its past, for what we acheived in the last 60 years, for the good people i see everyday.

But we have to put our [cabbage] together and understand that the path we are heading doesn't lead nowhere.

I wasn't aware that you were Jewish, qeltar. It's a popular term used, though. Matthew Yglesias, Max Blumenthal, Glenn Greenwald, Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, and really any liberal Jew is called "self-hating" or a terrorist sympathizer. Hell, I've even seen Rahm Emanuel called a self-hating Jew because he's serving the President and trying to get a peace deal.

 

If you are trying to get us to go to your level of name calling nice try :shame: :thumbdown:

 

It's just like when so called "moderates" attempt to marginalize "extremists" without actually looking at what they believe. Or like in this recent example, saying that Israel was acting out of self-defense against "terrorists." Somehow it's been accepted in American discourse that Israel was the victim here, and that the activists were the aggressor; even though 9-19 people have been killed by the supposed victim. It's just the same old tribal instincts, and another problem with nationalism.

 

Israel was the victim here it is the truth. If you are blinded by the anti Israel propaganda that the is your problem but don't try blinding others. I given you many links showing you they started the fighting not the IDF, if you don't believe the facts that is your problem

 

The nationalism in Sri Lanka prevents it from investigating war crimes against the Tamils, the nationalism in Sudan prevents a real inquiry into Darfur (although China has a lot to do with that, also), the nationalism in Pakistan prevents a real inquiry into the 1971 genocide of 3 million Bengalis and the violence against Kashmiri Hindus, the nationalism in Turkey prevents acknowledging the Armenian Genocide, the nationalism in America prevents condemnation of civilian killings in Iraq and Afghanistan and propping up dictators throughout the world, the nationalism in Japan prevents acknowledging the hideous crimes committed against the Chinese before and during WWII (14 million civilian deaths), the nationalism in the UK and France and Spain prevents it from fully acknowledging the evils of imperialism, the fanaticism of fundamentalist Christians prevents them from acknowledging the cultural genocide Christianity has wrought on many parts of the world, the nationalism in Australia prevents a proper policy and acknowledgment of crimes against Aboriginals, the nationalism by the Chinese prevents an acknowledgement of oppression against the Tibetans, etc. I could go on for days, but I think I've made my point.

 

Wow you showed that many government are afraid of its people

 

Nationalism in a lot of places prevents the proper acknowledgement of wrongdoing, oppression, and genocide. God, I hate nationalism, and that is the reason I am against Zionism.

 

Nationalism in Israel doesn't prevent the acknowledgment of war crimes. There were no war crimes done against the flotilla after me giving you so many different source i don't understand how you are so blinded

Israel was the victim here it is the truth. If you are blinded by the anti Israel propaganda that the is your problem but don't try blinding others. I given you many links showing you they started the fighting not the IDF, if you don't believe the facts that is your problem

 

The mere fact that they intercepted a ship in international waters shows that the soldiers attacked first. Second, there's evidence (video evidence) of the IDF launching tear gas before boarding, and I've seen other reports of them firing on the ship before boarding as well.

 

You have the IDF's claims, known for their lies the world over; I have logic, reason, and amateur videos that are slowly leaking out despite Israel shutting out journalists and taking all cameras from the civilians:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuODT3cPSGU

 

Wow you showed that many government are afraid of its people

 

No, I showed that nationalistic instincts prevent people from assessing their own country's atrocities.

 

Nationalism in Israel doesn't prevent the acknowledgment of war crimes.

 

Ok, then what prevents them from acknowledging them, then? They have done everything they could to smear the Goldstone Report.

 

There were no war crimes done against the flotilla after me giving you so many different source i don't understand how you are so blinded

 

I'm pretty sure that this was a war crime if the Israeli commandos are not handed over to Turkey:

 

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

 

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

 

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

 

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.

 

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/05/the_legal_posit.html

 

And the main sources you've given is the IDF, and a website that admits its goal as follows:

 

works tirelessly to help protect Israel by improving Israel's image

 

They've even gone as far to say that stopping the settlements is equal to ethnic cleansing:

 

http://www.jstreet.org/campaigns/stopping-settlements-ethnic-cleansing-no-way

 

So considering I don't believe a word that the IDF says, nor any official government military for that matter, that leaves your sources falling far short. So yes, Matok, the lesson of the debacle is that nothing the IDF says can be trusted by anyone. Not ever. (Of course, that should apply to any nation’s military, and not just “the most moral army in the world”). For example, we just killed al Qaeda's number three. Hmm, I think I've heard that before. Oh, right, we killed the number three guy several times before, and then later the reports were retracted. Usually the number three guy dies whenever our drone strikes come under fire for killing masses of civilians. Maybe it really was number three this time, but I have many doubts about the claim.

The mere fact that they intercepted a ship in international waters shows that the soldiers attacked first. Second, there's evidence (video evidence) of the IDF launching tear gas before boarding, and I've seen other reports of them firing on the ship before boarding as well.

 

You have the IDF's claims, known for their lies the world over; I have logic, reason, and amateur videos that are slowly leaking out despite Israel shutting out journalists and taking all cameras from the civilians:

 

Israel intercepted the flotilla in international waters right outside of Naval blockade so they wouldn't have a chance at running the blockade. The IDF board the ship and the activist attacked them first Where is the evidence of the IDF launching tear gas before boarding? and don't tell me in the video i watch it twice because i thought i might have missed it.

 

Video: First of all 3 IDF soldiers were kidnapped and later they released them after they realized they lost control of the ship. I like how they say "They were briefly detained" And when she talks about here being detained she claims "she was kidnapped" not detained very interesting how we "kidnapped her" and our soldiers were "briefly detained". The rest of video wow you a video of injured people after they fought the IDF.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/news.php?Itemid=2981

 

No, I showed that nationalistic instincts prevent people from assessing their own country's atrocities.

 

You have proven other countries not Israel

 

Ok, then what prevents them from acknowledging them, then? They have done everything they could to smear the Goldstone Report..

 

We didn't smear the Goldstone Report it did it its self by not stating why operation cast lead started- After 8 years of launching more than 10,000 rockets and mortars at Israeli cities.It also failed to say Hamas is a terrorist group sworn to the destruction of Israel or any of the terrorist attacks against Israel. It also failed to state that the terrorist hid behind civilians and and in schools and hospitals.

http://www.thegoldstonereport.com/

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/g_report_e1.pdf

 

 

I'm pretty sure that this was a war crime if the Israeli commandos are not handed over to Turkey:

 

Why is that because acted in self defense and killed people trying to kill them first the Israeli commandos are hero not terrorist unlike 50 men aboard the Mavi Marmara who attacked the IDF

 

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

 

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

 

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

 

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.

 

The Soldiers didn't murder they acted in self defense

 

So considering I don't believe a word that the IDF says, nor any official government military for that matter, that leaves your sources falling far short. So yes, Matok, the lesson of the debacle is that nothing the IDF says can be trusted by anyone. Not ever. (Of course, that should apply to any nations military, and not just the most moral army in the world). For example, we just killed al Qaeda's number three. Hmm, I think I've heard that before. Oh, right, we killed the number three guy several times before, and then later the reports were retracted. Usually the number three guy dies whenever our drone strikes come under fire for killing masses of civilians. Maybe it really was number three this time, but I have many doubts about the claim.

 

wow from the start you didn't believe a word out of the IDF so stop look for ways around the truth because there are none the truth will be heard if you like it or not

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

 

God I love this country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

 

God I love this country.

 

Nice video 5 Stars!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

 

God I love this country.

 

Nice video 5 Stars!

This is a good comparison to the reality of the audio tape IDF released and the kind of "peace" Israel advocates; one that is fabricated from lies and mocks the weak. And just a personal peeve, I rather dislike how some speakers of Hebrew can't say Hamas. It's Hamas, not Khamas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

 

God I love this country.

 

Nice video 5 Stars!

This is a good comparison to the reality of the audio tape IDF released and the kind of "peace" Israel advocates; one that is fabricated from lies and mocks the weak. And just a personal peeve, I rather dislike how some speakers of Hebrew can't say Hamas. It's Hamas, not Khamas.

 

The IDF didn't release this video. How is this fabricated from lies? That hamas givens children guns or that they receive billions in aid or the hamas is a terrorist organization

They were pronouncing hamas in Hebrew

 

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part3.HTML

Matok, thanks for your post.

 

I understand where you are coming from. And I feel for you in terms of having to put up with the sorts of Israelis on display in this thread. But then, we have the same problem in the US with slavish adherence to the military and thoughtless support of "defence" and "security". I only hope it eventually passes and you get some sane leadership before it's too late.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

 

God I love this country.

 

Nice video 5 Stars!

 

Embarrassing.

Matok, thanks for your post.

 

I understand where you are coming from. And I feel for you in terms of having to put up with the sorts of Israelis on display in this thread. But then, we have the same problem in the US with slavish adherence to the military and thoughtless support of "defence" and "security". I only hope it eventually passes and you get some sane leadership before it's too late.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

 

God I love this country.

 

Nice video 5 Stars!

 

Embarrassing.

What is embarrassing is you call it a humanitarian flotilla

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

 

God I love this country.

 

Nice video 5 Stars!

This is a good comparison to the reality of the audio tape IDF released and the kind of "peace" Israel advocates; one that is fabricated from lies and mocks the weak. And just a personal peeve, I rather dislike how some speakers of Hebrew can't say Hamas. It's Hamas, not Khamas.

 

The IDF didn't release this video. How is this fabricated from lies? That hamas givens children guns or that they receive billions in aid or the hamas is a terrorist organization

They were pronouncing hamas in Hebrew

 

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part3.HTML

You obviously do not read what other people say as I said the reality of this video is comparable to that of the audio tape IDF released. And on that note I will leave this thread as it shows Israeli supporters like you blindly support Israel and do not even read what they reject. By the way it was missiles to Palestinian children, not Hamas giving guns to Hamasi kids, so that denotes that all Palestinians are terrorists who exploit children which is incredibly racist, not to mention a supposed Turk is wearing the headdress style of a Saudi.

 

By the way if they were suppose to be Arabs how come they pronounced Hamas in Hebrew? They can't even make a consistent satire.

What is embarrassing is you call it a humanitarian flotilla

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who is incapable of even writing a coherent sentence -- and forum rules prohibit me from pointing out the obvious -- so let me keep this simple:

 

Don't misrepresent what I write. I never called the Turkish ships a "humanitarian flotilla".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

 

God I love this country.

You obviously do not read what other people say as I said the reality of this video is comparable to that of the audio tape IDF released. And on that note I will leave this thread as it shows Israeli supporters like you blindly support Israel and do not even read what they reject.

 

I do read what other people say. Israeli supporters don't blindly follow and support Israel you and the anti Israel propaganda are blinded

 

 

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who is incapable of even writing a coherent sentence -- and forum rules prohibit me from pointing out the obvious -- so let me keep this simple:

 

Don't misrepresent what I write. I never called the Turkish ships a "humanitarian flotilla".

 

You support it and they call themselves a humanitarian flotilla meaning you agree with them if you support them

An hour long video taken by the people on the ship was released today.

 

[hide=Warning, graphic imagery]

[/hide]

An hour long video taken by the people on the ship was released today.

 

[hide=Warning, graphic imagery]

[/hide]

 

Useless. There is no new information in the video.