The Irish ship should reach Hamas controlled territory at 6am BST, let's see how Israel deals with this, if the ship even reaches its destination.

If Israel has the balls to do the same thing I'm not sure they will ever recover in the public eye. Even if no one gets hurt, because it would show they learned nothing.

 

Edit: Not saying they shouldn't search it, but they should probably do it in a drastically different way...

 

To the best of my knowledge, Ireland has no grievances with Israel, while Turkey does. Its about the same situation as if the United States tried to send a boatload of aid to North Korea, or if China tried to send a boatload of aid to North Korea. United States is the enemy, China is a neutral party. With one party, North Korea would have to worry about their intent (i.e. smuggling weapons or any other sort of malice versus actual aid.)

 

 

Also - as much as I disagree with how the blockade is implemented, I believe that Israel has the right and the sovereignty as a nation to do whatever the heck they want off their coast. If a ship is in their territorial waters and they tell it to get the heck out,and the ship refuses to comply, they have every right as a nation to do however they see fit.

To those of you that said Israel should have let the boat dock before searching... I completely disagree. Once the boat docks, its a thousand times easier to smuggle items into the country than it is when the water is deep and you're contained on board.

 

 

Israel, I believe that you were in the wrong by two hours. I believe that the Marama was in the wrong as soon as they thumbed their nose at Israel.

It wasn't in their territorial waters.

 

And if they let it dock its quite simple if more tedious, and also more efficient, you have eyes on the boat the whole way in from just about every angle from like a mile off shore. When you get to shore you search every single person that comes off that boat. After every person is searched you go through every single crate, with the people who came in on the boat not even allowed in the dockyard and a 24/7 guard on the boat. The absolute worst that can happen is that someone smuggled a knife or a gun part up their ass, and even that could be stopped with metal detectors. The absolute worst Israel gets blamed for is delaying aid.

 

Also from what I've heard Turkey was kind of Israel's best hope of making friends in that area. Things may have been tense but they weren't outright "I hate you".

Interesting statements from the wounded survivors on Al-Jazeera right now.

It's like railing on a cop that chased a fugitive across the US-Mexico border to catch him. Sure it's illegal, but it needed to be done.

It's like railing on a cop that chased a fugitive across the US-Mexico border to catch him. Sure it's illegal, but it needed to be done.

 

Its more like a cop chasing someone who was "suspected" of dealing in contraband across the mexican border, shooting and killing him and then finding out after that he was innocent. And still expects a heros welcome when he gets home.

It's like railing on a cop that chased a fugitive across the US-Mexico border to catch him. Sure it's illegal, but it needed to be done.

 

Its more like a cop chasing someone who was "suspected" of dealing in contraband across the mexican border, shooting and killing him and then finding out after that he was innocent. And still expects a heros welcome when he gets home.

Yes, Dusty your analogy was quite bad because at no time did the ship cross into Israeli territorial or contiguous waters, therefore they were never in Israeli jurisdiction. Plus humanitarians of the provision of aid bringing food to their poor brethren were killed, not criminals.

 

And to the person who said Israel is allowed to do whatever they like off their coast in terms of the blockade, that actually isn't true. To my understanding of international law one is allowed to blockade another country's access to the sea during conflict as long as they insure their own well being. However a nation cannot blockade its own people as that would be a government abusing its own people. And also Palestine is not part of Israel, it is a different nation. ideally the entirety of the land of Palestine should not be Israel, but under international law at least the designated Palestinian territories are a foreign occupied country, therefore it is a legitimate target of naval blockade [not really though as the Palestinian territories are more like conquered periphery buffer luxuries].

my view on this is:

 

israel fought for that land through wars against several countries. they earned the right to that land. sure, it's not "ethical" that israel is there, but a lot of countries are established through warfare. only an idiot would ignore the fact that almost every strong economic state today have invaded other lands for resources / territory. i'm sure israel would be happy to give the Palestinians casinos in a few centuries. israel won the battles, and the wars. boohoo let the victors write the history.

 

besides, israel has done more for the world than modern arab states. if they didn't have so much oil, would the west even glance at the mid east? maybe not.

Shadow where do you live I'm gonna throw you out and move in. Don't worry, in ten years I'll let you run a lemonade stand.

 

The Palestinians have been fighting to get it back, we just don't like the way they are doing it. I don't support terrorism for any reason, but it is fighting. Also what has Israel done for the world?

 

Ya the worlds not fair, why didn't we say that when the Jews wanted to form Israel.

where do you live?

Even though the law is not as clear cut as that, I agree the boarding initially was illegal. However, what annoys me is that people seem to defend the actions of those on board the ship after the boarding and disregard the morality of the boarding itself. Two wrongs do not make a right. Just because I get pulled over by the police if I have done nothing wrong does not give me the right to grab a crowbar and whack the officer, grab a knife and stab him in the stomach and then try to grab his gun does it?

 

Both parties handled the situation horribly, but giving sympathy to the 'peacekeepers' is pathetic as they were just as much in the wrong as the Israeli's.

 

But the fact is when a ship is boarded illegally at high seas the ship has a right to defend themselves with proportionate force. I agree the activist's "defence" does seem a little brutal, but I'm not sure how I'd react if the ship I was on was boarded in the dead of night by armed Israeli commandos dropping from a helicopter. That doesn't exactly scream "we come in peace" to me. And the fact that lethal force was used as self-defence by trained military against non-lethal activists who were in turn acting in self-defence makes me say that the Israeli's handled this a lot worse.

my view on this is:

 

israel fought for that land through wars against several countries. they earned the right to that land. sure, it's not "ethical" that israel is there, but a lot of countries are established through warfare. only an idiot would ignore the fact that almost every strong economic state today have invaded other lands for resources / territory. i'm sure israel would be happy to give the Palestinians casinos in a few centuries. israel won the battles, and the wars. boohoo let the victors write the history.

 

besides, israel has done more for the world than modern arab states. if they didn't have so much oil, would the west even glance at the mid east? maybe not.

 

 

You must be some sort of supporter of colonialism devoid of any humanity and focused only on Western power. It is opinions like this and people like you that are totally ignorant to history and reasonable action, and so much so that you don't understand the necessity of an ethical diplomacy. Most people now understand that colonialism was a bad thing and stripping the resources of the world from the poorest people isn't something to look upon with glory. Many think that it isn't the right of the stronger to attack the weaker and that history shouldn't be written on the side of the victors but by the merits of their actions.

JERUSALEM Israeli forces seized a Gaza-bound aid vessel without meeting resistance on Saturday, preventing it from breaking an Israeli maritime blockade of the Hamas-ruled territory days after a similar effort turned bloody.

 

The military said its forces boarded the 1,200-ton Rachel Corrie cargo ship from the sea, not helicopters.

 

The takeover stood in marked contrast to a violent confrontation at sea earlier this week when Israeli commandos blocked a Turkish aid vessel trying to break the blockade. At the time, Israeli commandos rappelled from helicopters and a clash with passengers left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

 

Army spokeswoman Lt. Col. Avital Leibovich says Saturday's takeover took only a few minutes and that the vessel was being taken to Israel's Ashdod port.

 

 

 

Full story here.

Shadow where do you live I'm gonna throw you out and move in. Don't worry, in ten years I'll let you run a lemonade stand.

 

The Palestinians have been fighting to get it back, we just don't like the way they are doing it. I don't support terrorism for any reason, but it is fighting. Also what has Israel done for the world?

 

Ya the worlds not fair, why didn't we say that when the Jews wanted to form Israel.

 

Hey look there buddy, Israel has every right to exist. There's a country dedicated to every other major religion, no reason for this one not to be one. Also, go learn some history. Do you want the same thing that occured in Europe to happen again? This is why this country was created, so Jewish people could leave in safety and fairness. If Israel was a weak nation, it would have been destroyed by now. When it first declared independence, it was attacked by multiple countries on that day and won.

 

Do not give me this bull [cabbage] about how it doesn't serve to exist.

 

He's an analogy for you to understand... Black people and their independence. Ya the worlds not fair, why didn't we say that when the blacks wanted to gain equal rights and become free people.

 

What has Israel done to the world? What has any country do to the world for that fact? Here's something it gave to the world; a place to unite a common culture where you're not afraid of persecution.

Shadow where do you live I'm gonna throw you out and move in. Don't worry, in ten years I'll let you run a lemonade stand.

 

The Palestinians have been fighting to get it back, we just don't like the way they are doing it. I don't support terrorism for any reason, but it is fighting. Also what has Israel done for the world?

 

Ya the worlds not fair, why didn't we say that when the Jews wanted to form Israel.

 

Hey look there buddy, Israel has every right to exist. There's a country dedicated to every other major religion, no reason for this one not to be one. Also, go learn some history. Do you want the same thing that occured in Europe to happen again? This is why this country was created, so Jewish people could leave in safety and fairness. If Israel was a weak nation, it would have been destroyed by now. When it first declared independence, it was attacked by multiple countries on that day and won.

 

Do not give me this bull [cabbage] about how it doesn't serve to exist.

 

He's an analogy for you to understand... Black people and their independence. Ya the worlds not fair, why didn't we say that when the blacks wanted to gain equal rights and become free people.

 

What has Israel done to the world? What has any country do to the world for that fact? Here's something it gave to the world; a place to unite a common culture where you're not afraid of persecution.

So because Israel has the right to exists Palestine no longer did/does? And the thing in Europe is happening, to other people, and the Arabs (at least some) do want to kill all the Jews, so problem is not solved! Also if the United States didn't back Israel I can almost guarantee you Israel would have been destroyed by now. I don't know how strongly, but back when Israel was formed Russia didn't like the idea very much, and considering they were "fighting" America to be the world's superpower if we hadn't backed you I don't think its a stretch a all to imagine Russian armed and back Arabs overrunning Israel.

 

As for the analogy, you just go to prove my point, we didn't smash anyone else's rights by giving them theirs. Maybe stepped on some racist toes but never their rights.

 

And correct me if I'm wrong but nowhere else in the world is there a country that was formed for a social group. Social groups may hold majorities, and they may even have tried to make their country all one religion/race or whatever, but never was a country FORMED on those things.

 

@roccodog That seems perfectly ok to me, if they elect someone we don't like we'll have to starve them though.

Do you want the same thing that occured in Europe to happen again?

Do you?

 

I think Jews in Israel are very much deluding themselves on this particular issue.

 

The behavior of Israelis over the last decade is, IMO, one of the leading instigators of anti-Semitism in the world right now. Jews already face a constant uphill battle against those who hate them for who they are; now they get added to that *legitimate* criticism for how (some of them) *behave*.

 

When Israel mistreats other people via blatantly unfair blockades, they lose the sympathy that you are still trying to play off of here.

 

When Israelis act like the bad guys by attacking ships with civilians and killing and wounding dozens of them -- no matter the provocation -- they make the world care a little bit less about what happened in the 1940s.

 

When Israel defies the world and says "Israel's security trumps international law and we'll do what we want", it makes the world want to take Israel down a notch.

 

When Israelis elect people like Netanyahu makes the world feel Israel is not serious about peace -- for good reason.

 

Anyone who thinks Israel can go it alone and have any sort of a successful future is fooling themselves.

Shadow where do you live I'm gonna throw you out and move in. Don't worry, in ten years I'll let you run a lemonade stand.

 

The Palestinians have been fighting to get it back, we just don't like the way they are doing it. I don't support terrorism for any reason, but it is fighting. Also what has Israel done for the world?

 

Ya the worlds not fair, why didn't we say that when the Jews wanted to form Israel.

 

1. Hey look there buddy, Israel has every right to exist. There's a country dedicated to every other major religion, no reason for this one not to be one. Also, go learn some history. 2. Do you want the same thing that occured in Europe to happen again? This is why this country was created, so Jewish people could leave in safety and fairness. 3. If Israel was a weak nation, it would have been destroyed by now. When it first declared independence, it was attacked by multiple countries on that day and won.

Do not give me this bull [cabbage] about how it doesn't serve to exist.

 

He's an analogy for you to understand... Black people and their independence. Ya the worlds not fair, why didn't we say that when the blacks wanted to gain equal rights and become free people.

 

What has Israel done to the world? What has any country do to the world for that fact? 4. Here's something it gave to the world; a place to unite a common culture where you're not afraid of persecution.

1. The only country [before Israel, and it was only officially established by Benito Mussolini in the 30's] dedicated solely to a religion is Vatican City. It has the right to exist as the people of the same affiliation have occupied it for 2,000years and there was no dispute or seizure of land to create it. Also, the Vatican doesn't go around taking over Italian cities and destroys power plants, hotels and all types of infrastructure.

 

2. The Holocaust was bad, a minority of people dispute this. Just because something bad happens to you though doesn't mean you have the right to take something from someone who had nothing to do with your own plight. That's like someone burning down your house and it killed some of your family, do you have the right to go into another town and kick people out "your" new house because it was family tradition to believe your great great great grandfather lived there? Is that fair? Is that just? Can we really exploit others to achieve our own "fairness".

 

3. Do you also know how much the US pumps into Israel? If not militarily, economically for sure Israel would have already collapsed decades ago. There's a reason why they're so militarily advanced and that's because the US gives them hundreds of millions of dollars and all their old F16s. Essentially Israel would be very weak if it were not for the US giving them a spine and muscle. Guess how fast the 6-Day War ended when the US told Israel to stop? Without US support Israel would be nothing. But no worries for Israel, the Zionist Lobby in the US government is extremely powerful and they insure Israel will continue to receive support [and that an Arab Lobby remains weak, if existing at all].

 

4. I have Middle Eastern Jewish friends who specifically moved out of Israel [their family lived their when it was originally Palestine] because they were heavily discriminated against because the Jews of European descent would single them out of "one of those", collaborators with "the enemy", etc. So it is a safe haven for European Jews and them alone. But Israel also gives the freedom to persecute Palestinians and other Arabs freely :thumbup:

This isn't even considering the fact that Jews are a very small minority in that region. It's not fair that they get that much land.

 

The whole Zionist issue reeks of Lebensraum. When you think about it, there are quite a bit of similarities between Zionism and National Socialism. :roll:

This isn't even considering the fact that Jews are a very small minority in that region. It's not fair that they get that much land.

 

The whole Zionist issue reeks of Lebensraum. When you think about it, there are quite a bit of similarities between Zionism and National Socialism. :roll:

 

the hypocrisy of americans is too sweet. you're standing on a pile of dead native americans and yet you think you have the right to claim injustice against what israel has done? just complete ignorance. i don't see americans moving out to give it back to the native americans.

And correct me if I'm wrong but nowhere else in the world is there a country that was formed for a social group. Social groups may hold majorities, and they may even have tried to make their country all one religion/race or whatever, but never was a country FORMED on those things.

 

Uhh... Poland? And I gave that example on the basis of a relatively new country, but really, the majority of countries are based on either an ethnic group, an ideology, or both. USA is one of the only countries to be formed only around an ideology.

This isn't even considering the fact that Jews are a very small minority in that region. It's not fair that they get that much land.

 

The whole Zionist issue reeks of Lebensraum. When you think about it, there are quite a bit of similarities between Zionism and National Socialism. :roll:

 

i don't see americans moving out to give it back to the native americans.

 

Sure, when you move out of Canada back to whatever homeland your ancestors came from. Then again, your ancestors probably took that homeland from another ethnic group in Europe.

 

Honestly, Zionism has nothing to do with the colonists/Americans conquering Native American land. The former claims that they have a right because of the Holocaust and Nazi Germany in order to create their own homeland in the Middle East.

 

Likewise, you're comparing something that happened 150+ years ago to something that's happening right now.

 

EDIT: Since you insist, perhaps you can cover my moving expenses so I can move back to my ancestors' homeland: England. :lol:

You know its funny, Israel defends itself against terrorists supplying enemies with weapons by boarding a ship to search it and get attacked. Now Israel is the bad guys, and the whole world is condemning them once again. North Korea sinks a South Korean ship and kills 50 people and they get the finger waved at them. *Hillary Clinton* "The United States strongly disagrees with this move by North Korea" omg how scary I am sure they are afraid. Israel does 1 thing and everyone in the world says Israel must die, omg we all hate Israel they protected their country and their border. North Korea sunk a ship out of hatred, awh they are just trying to get along in this terrible world, give them a break *tear* Just love how fun the world is with idiots.

This isn't even considering the fact that Jews are a very small minority in that region. It's not fair that they get that much land.

 

The whole Zionist issue reeks of Lebensraum. When you think about it, there are quite a bit of similarities between Zionism and National Socialism. :roll:

 

i don't see americans moving out to give it back to the native americans.

 

Sure, when you move out of Canada back to whatever homeland your ancestors came from. Then again, your ancestors probably took that homeland from another ethnic group in Europe.

 

Honestly, Zionism has nothing to do with the colonists/Americans conquering Native American land. The former claims that they have a right because of the Holocaust and Nazi Germany in order to create their own homeland in the Middle East.

 

Likewise, you're comparing something that happened 150+ years ago to something that's happening right now.

 

you're not making any sense.

 

i'm canadian, yeah but i'm not the one condemning other countries for doing the same thing my country did to get established. so why would i want to leave? i accepted it's part of my country's history. just because people "named" zionism, doesn't make it any worse as to why americans killed indians.

 

and 150 years is short in terms of historical length. using your logic, in 150 years it's "okay" for israel to do what they've done. complete hypocrisy and ignorance.

As I've said a million times, it comes down to expectations. North Korea is a rogue nation. We expect them to act like that. When Israel acts the same way, they get called a rogue nation as well.

 

No country has a "right to exist". They all came into being in part due to violence, and there is usually no way to prove whether the people in a piece of land now are the same as the ones they claim to be descended from.

 

Even native Americans were not exactly the peaceniks some portray them to be -- they clasedh frequently among themselves.

 

Finally, you cannot use past injustices to rationalize current ones, or nothing ever improves. While the US may have done some very bad things 200 years ago, they have moved on, and it is entirely reasonable for them to expect an ally they fund to the tune of billions of dollars to behave in a way the US finds acceptable.

And correct me if I'm wrong but nowhere else in the world is there a country that was formed for a social group. Social groups may hold majorities, and they may even have tried to make their country all one religion/race or whatever, but never was a country FORMED on those things.

 

Uhh... Poland? And I gave that example on the basis of a relatively new country, but really, the majority of countries are based on either an ethnic group, an ideology, or both. USA is one of the only countries to be formed only around an ideology.

What group of people formed Poland then? Many countries are based on something but were not formed on exactly that. Spain is largely Catholic, but it was not formed as a home for Catholics.

 

Also we should get back on topic, I'm falling victim to the same thing i was yelling about earlier.

And correct me if I'm wrong but nowhere else in the world is there a country that was formed for a social group. Social groups may hold majorities, and they may even have tried to make their country all one religion/race or whatever, but never was a country FORMED on those things.

 

Uhh... Poland? And I gave that example on the basis of a relatively new country, but really, the majority of countries are based on either an ethnic group, an ideology, or both. USA is one of the only countries to be formed only around an ideology.

What group of people formed Poland then? Many countries are based on something but were not formed on exactly that. Spain is largely Catholic, but it was not formed as a home for Catholics.

 

An ethnic group isn't necessarily also a religion. Poland, France, Germany, Eygept, Israel, Mexico, all of those revolve around an ethnic group, not an ideology. Although, Israel fits both.

And correct me if I'm wrong but nowhere else in the world is there a country that was formed for a social group. Social groups may hold majorities, and they may even have tried to make their country all one religion/race or whatever, but never was a country FORMED on those things.

 

Uhh... Poland? And I gave that example on the basis of a relatively new country, but really, the majority of countries are based on either an ethnic group, an ideology, or both. USA is one of the only countries to be formed only around an ideology.

What group of people formed Poland then? Many countries are based on something but were not formed on exactly that. Spain is largely Catholic, but it was not formed as a home for Catholics.

 

An ethnic group isn't necessarily also a religion. Poland, France, Germany, Eygept, Israel, Mexico, all of those revolve around an ethnic group, not an ideology. Although, Israel fits both.

Ethnic groups form in areas though... that's why there is no ethnic Asian country in central Europe.. So because these countries are largely an ethnic group they were not made for that ethnic group.

 

Again we REALLY should get back on topic, I'm not going to post anything else unless it has to deal with he incident or if there is an incident with the Irish ship which is approaching the blockade.