Capital Punishment

[Nunquam]

I don't find anything wrong with the death penalty...it definitely protects society against killers and also shows people the consequences of wrongdoing.

[Althalus]

This topic will never come to a close. In my english class my professor prohibited anyone from writing their final persuasive essay on it just because its impossible to do in a 1000+ word essay. Everyone has their views, some are more right than wrong. I have strong beliefs in Divine Intervention so the whole Humans punishing Humans kind of turns me off. "Let ye without sin cast the first stone."

[Scruffy5389]

And all privileges in Prison should be revoked, such as comfortable beds, digital TV. nowadays prison is just free accomodation, free food and fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where do you go to prison?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I seem to get a different impression of what life in prison is like :?

[Lionheart_0]

 

And all privileges in Prison should be revoked, such as comfortable beds, digital TV. nowadays prison is just free accomodation, free food and fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where do you go to prison?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I seem to get a different impression of what life in prison is like :?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actuly most federal prisions these days are very nice, and well maintained. There are still some left that are really bad and are very unconfortable... bu they usaly provincial.

[____]

 

And all privileges in Prison should be revoked, such as comfortable beds, digital TV. nowadays prison is just free accomodation, free food and fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where do you go to prison?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I seem to get a different impression of what life in prison is like :?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TBH most public schools I have visited have worse facities than most jails.

 

 

 

Even the immigration detention centers are better than most and we've had illegals burning them down saying they're [cabbage] :roll:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Really makes you think sometimes. Anyhow, that's off topic.

 

 

 

If anyone wants to quote and fight it i'm not going to reply to it so you're just wasting your time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Back on topic, if it wasn't totally unethical I'd push to have a 1:1 kill ratio for those who have murdered.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They kill someone, the government then goes out and kills someone they care about in the exact same way while they watch. Sure it is punishing the innocent but killing the guilting isn't a way to get justice, they take from you - you take from them. Then you're square.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And since it you be TOTALLY unethical and pretty much immoral in the views of most, lifetime in jail (preferably isolation with no comforts or contact with the outside AT ALL) would probably surfice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Other things which attract the death sentance, I dunno. 1:1 ratio in paying back the victim for them aswell probably (or as close as ethically possible :P).

[assassin_696]

If someone has done something bad enough to be killed for it, they should be locked up and the key thrown away. They don't deserve death, let them rot in jail.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Besides, mistakes have been made with sentencing innocent people before, why make those mistakes again? An eye for an eye is the easy way out, and the disuading criminals thing is rubbish, since many countries without the death penalty have better crime rates than countries with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course that's not to say i'm a pacifist or anything, since I believe that as terrible as wars are, they are sometimes necessary and i DO believe that money should be spent maintaining Britain's navy rather than being spent on baby incubators. It's important we try and maintain our tradition. That's a lil off topic though.

[dusqi]

I don't find anything wrong with the death penalty...it definitely protects society against killers and also shows people the consequences of wrongdoing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These quotes are from Amnesty International:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Scientific studies have consistently failed to find convincing evidence that the death penalty deters crime more effectively than other punishments. The most recent survey of research findings on the relation between the death penalty and homicide rates, conducted for the United Nations in 1988 and updated in 2002, concluded: '. . .it is not prudent to accept the hypothesis that capital punishment deters murder to a marginally greater extent than does the threat and application of the supposedly lesser punishment of life imprisonment.' "

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Recent crime figures from abolitionist countries fail to show that abolition [of the death penalty] has harmful effects. In Canada, for example, the homicide rate per 100,000 population fell from a peak of 3.09 in 1975, the year before the abolition of the death penalty for murder, to 2.41 in 1980, and since then it has declined further. In 2003, 27 years after abolition, the homicide rate was 1.73 per 100,000 population, 44 per cent lower than in 1975 and the lowest rate in three decades."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These findings are from a study by the NY Times:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"The dozen states that have chosen not to enact the death penalty since the Supreme Court ruled in 1976 that it was constitutionally permissible have not had higher homicide rates than states with the death penalty, government statistics and a new survey by The New York Times show."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"In a state-by- state analysis, The Times found that during the last 20 years, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48 percent to 101 percent higher than in states without the death penalty."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Indeed, 10 of the 12 states without capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average, Federal Bureau of Investigation data shows, while half the states with the death penalty have homicide rates above the national average."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To add another fact about how the death penalty is doled out unfairly:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"The death penalty also has been employed much more often when the victim was white ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ã

[insane]

To add another fact about how the death penalty is doled out unfairly:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"The death penalty also has been employed much more often when the victim was white ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ã

[Mr_Putter]

 

 

And all privileges in Prison should be revoked, such as comfortable beds, digital TV. nowadays prison is just free accomodation, free food and fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where do you go to prison?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I seem to get a different impression of what life in prison is like :?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TBH most public schools I have visited have worse facities than most jails.

 

 

 

Even the immigration detention centers are better than most and we've had illegals burning them down saying they're cabbage :roll:

It really depends; I agree and disagree. Since you're not going to fight, it doesn't really matter, but I might as well say this for others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you go to a provincial jail, or in words for other countries, the kind of jail for lower offences (under 2 years here, I'm not sure on other countries) they are quite nice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In fact, there was a rich person, Colin Thatcher I believe his name was (I think the Premier of a Province) went to Ferndale Prison in BC. Not only is it on the coast of the Pacific, but it also has it's own 9 hole golf course, and Colin Thatcher even got them to bring his horse in so he could ride it. That's minimum security for ya. Of course once the public got heed of this, they took his horsey away. He must have been crushed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, once you get up to the Federal Jails, things are a lot different. There's so much violence between inmates, it hardly matters what luxuries they have (and that's very few), they get beat up by each other and occassionally guards, and there's a whole prison heirarchy, whereby child molesters ("diddlers"), sex offenders, and rats are often beaten and occassionally killed in jail [you just never hear about it]. Of course 'macho' crimes like cop-killing and armed robbery are doing all these actions and are relatively safe from others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's no internet here, no comfort really. Dangerous Offenders ( the worst of the worst) get a 2.5m by 3m cell that they are in 23 hours a day. And don't get me started on American prisons down in the desert, where half of them have to sleep in piping hot tents and then go out in their tough labour work crews.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, this does have relevancy to the topic. Since it is kind of fitting to coop someone up in a tiny box, but also kind of a waste of everything involved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes I think they should just let Paul Bernardo (Canadian Dangerous Offender, raped and killed young women while his wife watched on and filmed) or other similar people (of extreme heinousness) out into the regular prison population. They would get killed in a week, because other people in jail particularly hate sex offenders and child molesters (as I said earlier). This is because while they're in jail, they don't want their wife/child/girlfriend etc. getting sexually assaulted or killed, while they're inside and unable to protect.. As for murders...Single murderers could probably do with a life time to think it over in a cold, stone box. But serial rapists, murder/rapist hybrids, etc, I think it could work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wouldn't putting them in with the regular inmates be enough? They'd be dead soon enough, no need for an investigation, and it wouldn't cost them a penny extra to run a Capital punishment case. Then the government/jail people could just say that "Oh we didn't know". End of story.

[dusqi]

www.deathpenaltyinfo.org

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"After controlling for levels of crime severity and the defendant's criminal background, the average death sentencing rates in Philadelphia were .18 for black defendants and .13 for other defendants, which amounts to a 38% higher rate for blacks"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

deathpenalty.info factsheet

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"98% of the chief district attorneys in death penalty states are white; only 1% are black. (Prof. Jeffrey Pokorak, Cornell Law Review, 1998)"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"A recent study in California found that those who killed whites were over 3 times more likely to be sentenced to death than those

 

 

 

who killed blacks and over 4 times more likely than those who killed Latinos. (Pierce & Radelet, Santa Clara Law Review 2005)"

[Guest GhostRanger]

www.deathpenaltyinfo.org

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"After controlling for levels of crime severity and the defendant's criminal background, the average death sentencing rates in Philadelphia were .18 for black defendants and .13 for other defendants, which amounts to a 38% higher rate for blacks"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

deathpenalty.info factsheet

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"98% of the chief district attorneys in death penalty states are white; only 1% are black. (Prof. Jeffrey Pokorak, Cornell Law Review, 1998)"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"A recent study in California found that those who killed whites were over 3 times more likely to be sentenced to death than those

 

 

 

who killed blacks and over 4 times more likely than those who killed Latinos. (Pierce & Radelet, Santa Clara Law Review 2005)"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not going to argue with facts from deathpenaltyinfo.org, despite the fact that you are getting information from a biased source (I can take a statistic and do wonders with it you nkow) but I will question your point. What is your point? The issue is obviously not about race, as indicated from the first time this point was brought up - it is about financial status. Who can afford the better lawyers? That's capitalism. You can take the same twisted statistics for ANY crime and ANY punishment, its always harsher for those who can't afford good attorneys, and that is very often black people. It has nothing to do with being black and it is not bound to the death penalty. Bringing up that point is arguing against our entire capitalist market and our entire judicial system - not the death penalty.

[insane]

Not to mention the sample data for the graph used was of *one* city over a ten year period, over ten years ago.

[Guest GhostRanger]

Not to mention the sample data for the graph used was of *one* city for a fifteen year period, over 10 years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly... statistics from a biased group are obviously going to be biased.

[dusqi]

1. You guys aren't bringing up any better statistics are you? Your arguments are just coming from the standpoint of "I don't want to believe it, so I won't."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2.

 

 

 

the issue is obviously not about race, as indicated from the first time this point was brought up - it is about financial status. Who can afford the better lawyers? That's capitalism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Financial status is an issue, you're correct. So poor people deserve to die more than rich ones? Are you saying that "the capitalist system" is the one that should be used to deal out life and death? As far as I can see, "the capitalist system" isn't very good at doling out justice. Extreme versions of "the capitalist system" doling out "justice "exist in poor countries where the rich just buy or bribe their way out of guilt. As the religious might say, only God is qualified to deal out life and death - because he's the only perfect one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, financial status does not account for the difference between killing a white person and killing a black person - whether or not the defendant is white or not. There are four curves on the graph, not two. Look at the difference between a nonblack defendant killing a nonblack vicrim and killing a black victim.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Facts are:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- The death penalty is more expensive than incarceration

 

 

 

- The death penalty is used on innocent people

 

 

 

- The death penalty is applied racistly

 

 

 

- The death penalty does not deter crime

 

 

 

- The death penalty is immoral (less of a 'fact' I guess)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only worthwhile standpoint on the side of the death penalty is the fact that it exacts revenge. But what kind of a judicial system do we have if we're just preoccupied with revenge?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Okay, I realise that my argumentative tone isn't helping anything, in my defence it's just something I feel strongly about. My goal isn't for anyone to post saying "oh, dusqi, you were right after all, I'm sorry for being so wrong." What I would love though, is for people to look again at these points that they probably didn't know before, with an open mind, not just from the standpoint of "I've already made up my mind, how can I attack this other person who disagrees with me?"

[mad4u689]

And even if you talk about socioeconomic differences in incidences of the death penalty, I think you can point to that as a flaw of having the death penalty without saying capitalism is stupid. Because although differences in lawyer's abilities makes sense (and they should get paid larger sums of money based on their better abilities), when someone's life is on the line, that changes the picture - then, you need the best lawyer you can get, and that DOESN'T happen. The aim of the judicial system is never to punish poorer people more than well-off people, but that happens anyway. But when you apply that to the death penalty, where there's no chance of getting any of your life back, it just... changes things. Without undermining capitalism entirely.

[Barihawk]

People talk alot about how this is the 1000th US execution since the ban was repealed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People say its all grim that 1000 people have been executed, and focus on that number as a milestone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well guess what, the number of people who were murdered by those 1000 convicts numbers almost 2000 people. Not to mention the thousands more of family, friends, courts, etc that were touched by both the murder and the trial. Do they not deserve justice?

[insane]

1. You guys aren't bringing up any better statistics are you? Your arguments are just coming from the standpoint of "I don't want to believe it, so I won't."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not really... I just don't want to be someone who bases my opinions on one random fact thrown at me :P I'm not saying that they *aren't* being racist... I'm just saying it will take more than that to convince me that they are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While I agree with the first four of your facts...

 

 

 

The death penalty is applied racistly

 

 

 

Is sort of... I dunno. Here, I'll use an example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A plane crashes because it's wings weren't designed properly. Oh... how horrible aerodynamics must be! This plane applied the principle of aerodynamics wrongly, therefore aerodynamics is a bad thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

is ~ to

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People applying the death penalty wrongly (Racistly), is really irrelevant to the goodness/badness of the death penalty itself. Application vs. principle... applications are always irrelevant to the principle. It's the people applying the death penalty that are racist, and if they're going to use the death penalty racistly, then theyre going to use whatever other sentence given racistly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(and I'm sure that there are cases where the death penalty is applied correctly, and justly... which of course is dependent on someone's standing on your 5th fact..)

[Hannibal]

It's the people applying the death penalty that are racist, and if they're going to use the death penalty racistly, then theyre going to use whatever other sentence given racistly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, as Mad pointed out, the consequences of that racism would be less severe. I do agree that the justice system seems to need fixing as-is, though. (meaning, they should appoint new (black / latino) AG's).

[kileh2]

when the law can promise me without a shadow of a doubt, that every single person on death row or who has been killed on death row is 150% guilty, then i will be for it. until then, i am against capital punishment.

[dusqi]

 

 

 

People applying the death penalty wrongly (Racistly), is really irrelevant to the goodness/badness of the death penalty itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But the same argument applies to innocent people being killed. If the justice system was perfect, then innocent people wouldn't be killed. If the justice system was perfect, then it wouldn't be applied unfairly. Sadly, as far as I can tell, it is applied unfairly - because we're not perfect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well guess what, the number of people who were murdered by those 1000 convicts numbers almost 2000 people. Not to mention the thousands more of family, friends, courts, etc that were touched by both the murder and the trial. Do they not deserve justice?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why is killing another person justice? It's just revenge, and that doesn't get anyone anywhere. For the family who has had a loved one killed, it must be awful - but if they want revenge, then it will just create another family that has had a loved one killed.

[insane]

 

 

 

 

People applying the death penalty wrongly (Racistly), is really irrelevant to the goodness/badness of the death penalty itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But the same argument applies to innocent people being killed. If the justice system was perfect, then innocent people wouldn't be killed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think the justice system is supposed to act as a deterrent to doing bad deeds because that is just impossible. It appears that even though people know they will be sentenced to death for doing something they will still go ahead and commit crimes - so it is impossible for a justice system to prevent crimes, it merely exacts punishment for the crimes afterwards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the justice system was perfect, then it wouldn't be applied unfairly. Sadly, as far as I can tell, it is applied unfairly - because we're not perfect

 

 

 

Okay, just trying to clarify here - the justice system is unperfect because it allowed imperfect beings to apply it? That would make sense to me.

[MyPurpleCrayon]

Facts are:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- The death penalty is more expensive than incarceration True

 

 

 

- The death penalty is used on innocent people Sometimes, but so is jail and every other type of punishment.

 

 

 

- The death penalty is applied racistly Sometimes

 

 

 

- The death penalty does not deter crimeYou're right... but what does?

 

 

 

- The death penalty is immoral (less of a 'fact' I guess) I agree with you on this one :wink:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thought I would fix it for ya!

[dusqi]

Insane, sorry if I was unclear. When I was talking about innocent people being killed, I meant the innocent people that are killed by the death penalty by mistake. If the justice system was perfect, then we wouldn't mistakenly sentence the death penalty on innocent people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MyPurpleCrayon, your fixes are right.. and yet this is what I say to them:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- The death penalty is used on innocent people Sometimes, but so is jail and every other type of punishment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But jail isn't irreversible

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- The death penalty is applied racistly Sometimes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How can we seperate the times that race has affected sentencing, and times when it hasn't? All we can do is look at general findings of lots of cases, and note indescrepancies with what we 'should' find (that race doesn't matter)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- The death penalty does not deter crime You're right... but what does?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But a lot of people who support the death penalty are under the mistaken impression that it does deter crime, and it is this mistaken belief which sways some people's opinions when otherwise they'd be against the death penalty.

[Guest GhostRanger]

1. You guys aren't bringing up any better statistics are you? Your arguments are just coming from the standpoint of "I don't want to believe it, so I won't."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2.

 

 

 

the issue is obviously not about race, as indicated from the first time this point was brought up - it is about financial status. Who can afford the better lawyers? That's capitalism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Financial status is an issue, you're correct. So poor people deserve to die more than rich ones? Are you saying that "the capitalist system" is the one that should be used to deal out life and death? As far as I can see, "the capitalist system" isn't very good at doling out justice. Extreme versions of "the capitalist system" doling out "justice "exist in poor countries where the rich just buy or bribe their way out of guilt. As the religious might say, only God is qualified to deal out life and death - because he's the only perfect one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, financial status does not account for the difference between killing a white person and killing a black person - whether or not the defendant is white or not. There are four curves on the graph, not two. Look at the difference between a nonblack defendant killing a nonblack vicrim and killing a black victim.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Facts are:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- The death penalty is more expensive than incarceration

 

 

 

- The death penalty is used on innocent people

 

 

 

- The death penalty is applied racistly

 

 

 

- The death penalty does not deter crime

 

 

 

- The death penalty is immoral (less of a 'fact' I guess)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only worthwhile standpoint on the side of the death penalty is the fact that it exacts revenge. But what kind of a judicial system do we have if we're just preoccupied with revenge?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Okay, I realise that my argumentative tone isn't helping anything, in my defence it's just something I feel strongly about. My goal isn't for anyone to post saying "oh, dusqi, you were right after all, I'm sorry for being so wrong." What I would love though, is for people to look again at these points that they probably didn't know before, with an open mind, not just from the standpoint of "I've already made up my mind, how can I attack this other person who disagrees with me?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First off, you said a fact is that it is handed out racistly and that is not true. Its entirely based on financial status and you had said that before.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You say that I'm suggesting that poor people deserve to die more than rich? Of course not! My point is that poor people also don't deserve jail more than the rich. That is a reflection on our capitalist market and our judicial system - THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you read my previous post, I did put up statistics about the black crime rate compared to the white crime rate. Funny how you all have just ignored the statistic you don't like seeing...

[dusqi]

 

 

 

Anyway, financial status does not account for the difference between killing a white person and killing a black person - whether or not the defendant is white or not. There are four curves on the graph, not two. Look at the difference between a nonblack defendant killing a nonblack vicrim and killing a black victim.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, financial status does not account for the difference between killing a white person and killing a black person - whether or not the defendant is white or not. There are four curves on the graph, not two. Look at the difference between a nonblack defendant killing a nonblack vicrim and killing a black victim.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, financial status does not account for the difference between killing a white person and killing a black person - whether or not the defendant is white or not. There are four curves on the graph, not two. Look at the difference between a nonblack defendant killing a nonblack vicrim and killing a black victim.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, financial status does not account for the difference between killing a white person and killing a black person - whether or not the defendant is white or not. There are four curves on the graph, not two. Look at the difference between a nonblack defendant killing a nonblack vicrim and killing a black victim.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, financial status does not account for the difference between killing a white person and killing a black person - whether or not the defendant is white or not. There are four curves on the graph, not two. Look at the difference between a nonblack defendant killing a nonblack vicrim and killing a black victim.