Primal rapier

[Dire_Wolf]

Primal rapier has greatest speed of all weapons, but i don't hear so many people mention it when asked about weapons. Shouldn't this weapon be pretty good to use with a flameburst defender? Sure you will come across a monster that you will hit 0s, but shouldn't it prove to be fast killer on most of the monsters?

[Troacctid]

Why are you binding a flameburst defender, that's the question.

[Dire_Wolf]

Why are you binding a flameburst defender, that's the question.

Thought for the attack bonus. But i have realized it's not a good choice. But i wish your first post in this topic was about the topic :unsure:

[jayc3399]

I think the idea is that the ring makes a 2hd the best.

[xpx]

I think the idea is that the ring makes a 2hd the best.

The ring effects faster weapons more than slower ones...for obvious reasons. The rapier is a great complementary weapon, but not overall better than the 2h. A team with 4 2h's and a rapier is better than a team with 5 2h's, so there are some great uses for it. Assuming you are 100+ dg and have hood and blood necklace bound, it just might be the best overall dps weapon(it's great on shades/rangers/ghosts and low def monstes right now, really weak on warriors and some bosses).

[uzi0espil]

i dont know

 

actually i believe 2h is way better than using rapier in dungeoneering anyways

[Sir_Squab]

Faster weapons have lower accuracy/str. In Dunge, the faster weapons are significantly less accurate and less powerful; combine this with some of the higher defence monsters in Dunge, and this is why people often prefer the stronger/more accurate weapons there. Unlike the rest of RS, where at the high end, faster weapons are preferred because the higher str and accuracy of slower weapons doesn't make up for speed. (Especially accuracy.)

 

Like xpx pointed out, it's useful on the LOWER defense monsters, where accuracy doesn't matter so much.

[Zaaps1]

Why are you binding a flameburst defender, that's the question.

Thought for the attack bonus. But i have realized it's not a good choice. But i wish your first post in this topic was about the topic :unsure:

 

I think the point was, since you shouldn't be using the defender anyway, your point about using the rapier together with the defender is pointless since it is not practical anyway.

 

Therefore, right away we can say "no" to your immediate question, since the defender is really never worth using.

 

But on the larger question of whether the rapier or the other weapons are better, the rapier really isn't outstanding. Good speed, yes, but the Spear isn't much slower and is far more effective. You can trade in even more speed for a 2H sword, which absolutely rips apart monsters the rapier couldn't touch, aided further by the fact that you can use crush AND slash attacks with the Berserker Class Ring (I believe the Rapier can only slash aggressively, not stab, and it certainly can't crush, which is an extremely important battle style to have).

 

This brings up another point, the rapier doesn't have crush. It trades that instead for stab, which is more or less useless. Crush helps enormously on skeletons, forgotten warriors, and earth warriors. Stab helps on what? Giants? They have pathetic defense as it is. Dragons? They're too rare to really be concerned about, and if your team piles it with slash attacks, it won't present much of a challenge. So much of Dungeoneering is focused on hitting hard on your opponent's weak spot.

 

Thus, the rapier is pretty impractical, despite its speed.

[SirIzenhime]

The rapiers in dungoeneering actually have pretty bad stats, and are really only good to use on monster that have extremely low defense (shades, ghosts), or things that are significately weak to stab (rangers, guard dogs, icefiends)

 

It's good situationally, but not as a main bind item.

[xpx]

Why are you binding a flameburst defender, that's the question.

Thought for the attack bonus. But i have realized it's not a good choice. But i wish your first post in this topic was about the topic :unsure:

 

I think the point was, since you shouldn't be using the defender anyway, your point about using the rapier together with the defender is pointless since it is not practical anyway.

 

Therefore, right away we can say "no" to your immediate question, since the defender is really never worth using.

 

But on the larger question of whether the rapier or the other weapons are better, the rapier really isn't outstanding. Good speed, yes, but the Spear isn't much slower and is far more effective. You can trade in even more speed for a 2H sword, which absolutely rips apart monsters the rapier couldn't touch, aided further by the fact that you can use crush AND slash attacks with the Berserker Class Ring (I believe the Rapier can only slash aggressively, not stab, and it certainly can't crush, which is an extremely important battle style to have).

 

This brings up another point, the rapier doesn't have crush. It trades that instead for stab, which is more or less useless. Crush helps enormously on skeletons, forgotten warriors, and earth warriors. Stab helps on what? Giants? They have pathetic defense as it is. Dragons? They're too rare to really be concerned about, and if your team piles it with slash attacks, it won't present much of a challenge. So much of Dungeoneering is focused on hitting hard on your opponent's weak spot.

 

Thus, the rapier is pretty impractical, despite its speed.

Facts, my dear friend, facts. Not a strong point of yours....but i'm not taking it much further this time.

 

Firstly, we have heard the speed debate lots on the CLS vs. CR thread, and if you look at the thread more closely, anyone who says that the speed of weapons ''isn't much slower'' or ''is barely noticeable'' is extremely ignorant. 25% speed over spear and 50% speed over 2h is more than significant. Secondly, rapier has the use of ALL the ring of kinship customizations, being able to use tactician on stab, berserker on STAB AND SLASH and tank with a shield. Downplaying stab as much as you did is also funny, because actually, stab is the attack most used on a spear, which used to be the best weapon before ring customizations. You also forget that everyone and their dog has a 2h or a battleaxe bound so most teams are weak to the stab aspect of dungeons anyway, while rapier may be weak against higher def or armored monsters, it is ton's better on a number of other monsters- if high level monos were done with rapiers only, they would be a breeze. As i said, as an overall weapon and no stat boosts, rapier is not a better overall weapon than the 2h, but because of what most people have bound, it is very useful to have one or two on your team.

[SirIzenhime]

[hide]

Why are you binding a flameburst defender, that's the question.

Thought for the attack bonus. But i have realized it's not a good choice. But i wish your first post in this topic was about the topic :unsure:

 

I think the point was, since you shouldn't be using the defender anyway, your point about using the rapier together with the defender is pointless since it is not practical anyway.

 

Therefore, right away we can say "no" to your immediate question, since the defender is really never worth using.

 

But on the larger question of whether the rapier or the other weapons are better, the rapier really isn't outstanding. Good speed, yes, but the Spear isn't much slower and is far more effective. You can trade in even more speed for a 2H sword, which absolutely rips apart monsters the rapier couldn't touch, aided further by the fact that you can use crush AND slash attacks with the Berserker Class Ring (I believe the Rapier can only slash aggressively, not stab, and it certainly can't crush, which is an extremely important battle style to have).

 

This brings up another point, the rapier doesn't have crush. It trades that instead for stab, which is more or less useless. Crush helps enormously on skeletons, forgotten warriors, and earth warriors. Stab helps on what? Giants? They have pathetic defense as it is. Dragons? They're too rare to really be concerned about, and if your team piles it with slash attacks, it won't present much of a challenge. So much of Dungeoneering is focused on hitting hard on your opponent's weak spot.

 

Thus, the rapier is pretty impractical, despite its speed.

Facts, my dear friend, facts. Not a strong point of yours....but i'm not taking it much further this time.

 

Firstly, we have heard the speed debate lots on the CLS vs. CR thread, and if you look at the thread more closely, anyone who says that the speed of weapons ''isn't much slower'' or ''is barely noticeable'' is extremely ignorant. 25% speed over spear and 50% speed over 2h is more than significant. Secondly, rapier has the use of ALL the ring of kinship customizations, being able to use tactician on stab, berserker on STAB AND SLASH and tank with a shield. Downplaying stab as much as you did is also funny, because actually, stab is the attack most used on a spear, which used to be the best weapon before ring customizations. You also forget that everyone and their dog has a 2h or a battleaxe bound so most teams are weak to the stab aspect of dungeons anyway, while rapier may be weak against higher def or armored monsters, it is ton's better on a number of other monsters- if high level monos were done with rapiers only, they would be a breeze. As i said, as an overall weapon and no stat boosts, rapier is not a better overall weapon than the 2h, but because of what most people have bound, it is very useful to have one or two on your team.

[/hide]

 

this....now you need to decide...do you want to be that One or two on the team?

[Zaaps1]

Why are you binding a flameburst defender, that's the question.

Thought for the attack bonus. But i have realized it's not a good choice. But i wish your first post in this topic was about the topic :unsure:

 

I think the point was, since you shouldn't be using the defender anyway, your point about using the rapier together with the defender is pointless since it is not practical anyway.

 

Therefore, right away we can say "no" to your immediate question, since the defender is really never worth using.

 

But on the larger question of whether the rapier or the other weapons are better, the rapier really isn't outstanding. Good speed, yes, but the Spear isn't much slower and is far more effective. You can trade in even more speed for a 2H sword, which absolutely rips apart monsters the rapier couldn't touch, aided further by the fact that you can use crush AND slash attacks with the Berserker Class Ring (I believe the Rapier can only slash aggressively, not stab, and it certainly can't crush, which is an extremely important battle style to have).

 

This brings up another point, the rapier doesn't have crush. It trades that instead for stab, which is more or less useless. Crush helps enormously on skeletons, forgotten warriors, and earth warriors. Stab helps on what? Giants? They have pathetic defense as it is. Dragons? They're too rare to really be concerned about, and if your team piles it with slash attacks, it won't present much of a challenge. So much of Dungeoneering is focused on hitting hard on your opponent's weak spot.

 

Thus, the rapier is pretty impractical, despite its speed.

Facts, my dear friend, facts. Not a strong point of yours....but i'm not taking it much further this time.

 

Firstly, we have heard the speed debate lots on the CLS vs. CR thread, and if you look at the thread more closely, anyone who says that the speed of weapons ''isn't much slower'' or ''is barely noticeable'' is extremely ignorant. 25% speed over spear and 50% speed over 2h is more than significant. Secondly, rapier has the use of ALL the ring of kinship customizations, being able to use tactician on stab, berserker on STAB AND SLASH and tank with a shield. Downplaying stab as much as you did is also funny, because actually, stab is the attack most used on a spear, which used to be the best weapon before ring customizations. You also forget that everyone and their dog has a 2h or a battleaxe bound so most teams are weak to the stab aspect of dungeons anyway, while rapier may be weak against higher def or armored monsters, it is ton's better on a number of other monsters- if high level monos were done with rapiers only, they would be a breeze. As i said, as an overall weapon and no stat boosts, rapier is not a better overall weapon than the 2h, but because of what most people have bound, it is very useful to have one or two on your team.

 

The speed debate is important, but I don't see how it's relevant here. CR is faster than CLS, but then again the difference between the two is so small that CR is clearer the superior option almost everywhere.

 

Whereas the 2H has DOUBLE the attack bonus on its main style (stab on rapier, slash on 2h) and MORE than double the attack bonus on its secondary style (slash on rapier, crush on 2h).

 

The Prom. Spear has 50% more stab bonus and just less than half the secondary bonus (slash on rapier, crush on spear), and less slash than the rapier.

 

So yeah, they're slower like the CLS is slower than the Rapier, but the stats are so much better that you can't really draw too many comparisons outside of that.

 

That being said, all your other points are valid, but then again, it still proves (as you've said) that the rapier isn't outstanding and 2H is generally better, which is more or less what I said. Rapiers will be helpful for the team, but wouldn't spears be better? They have a 40% boost in strength, more than the ~13-20% berserker will give you, are more accurate, can be poisoned, and you really only tank if you're keying and running through a room. Although I admit, having a Rapier would benefit the team.

[xpx]

It's actually funny how you try to be objective by comparing attack bonuses, but not strength bonuses. If you don't compare both, it's useless to even compare them.

 

For speed, it's a 100% asset. While 200% attack bonus will mean you will be more accurate, you will never be 200% as accurate as with rapier. If your weapon is 50% faster, you will be 50% faster no matter what. As you will likely see, the strength bonuses of the mentioned weapons aren't that dramatically different, and when you factor in that bonuses will be used much better on a faster weapon, rapier will always be better than spear for stabbing and slashing. As i already said, as a general weapon, assuming you can only take one, the 2h is better because you will be near useless with rapier on forgotten warriors, BUT, on the other hand, as everyone uses 2hs and battleaxes, you will be a greater asset to your team with a rapier than 2h/battleaxe as you will kill those monsters faster that they will kill slowly. No one weapon is always better than all others when it comes to 5:5 teams. Rapier is also better for c1's, which is a nice bonus.

[Kimberly]

Having used both a primal rapier and a spear, I got far more use out of the spear. I am too low level to consider using a 2h (only 72), and the spear's versatility and damage makes me a far more useful person than not.

 

When I used the rapier, I also had a tier 8 tank ring and a primal kiteshield bound. Not quite the same circumstance as you, but I made do with what I had at the time.

[Zaaps1]

It's actually funny how you try to be objective by comparing attack bonuses, but not strength bonuses. If you don't compare both, it's useless to even compare them.

 

For speed, it's a 100% asset. While 200% attack bonus will mean you will be more accurate, you will never be 200% as accurate as with rapier. If your weapon is 50% faster, you will be 50% faster no matter what. As you will likely see, the strength bonuses of the mentioned weapons aren't that dramatically different, and when you factor in that bonuses will be used much better on a faster weapon, rapier will always be better than spear for stabbing and slashing. As i already said, as a general weapon, assuming you can only take one, the 2h is better because you will be near useless with rapier on forgotten warriors, BUT, on the other hand, as everyone uses 2hs and battleaxes, you will be a greater asset to your team with a rapier than 2h/battleaxe as you will kill those monsters faster that they will kill slowly. No one weapon is always better than all others when it comes to 5:5 teams. Rapier is also better for c1's, which is a nice bonus.

 

Yes, of course the strength is also higher for both of them, but I felt that the point was made that it's a bad comparison to CR vs. CLS was made through attack bonuses alone.

 

Also, seeing as Prom 2h is 50% more strength bonus than the Rapier, I can't see how you can say that the strength bonuses of the weapons aren't dramatically different. 50% is pretty big if you ask me (and spear is about 35% iirc).

[xpx]

no, they are dramatically different. Not THAT(obviously comparing to accuracy bonuses) dramatically different, they are not.

 

By the way, the max hit with prom spear and primal rapier is exactly the same with ~t7 berserker, so keep that in mind. Prom 2h hits 27% higher than primal rapier so for low defense or stab weak monsters rapier will be much better than 2h(and there are actually alot of low defense monsters on the new occult theme, most of them being high-kill priority.

[SirIzenhime]

you will be near useless with rapier on forgotten warriors

 

Warriors wearing chains or only legs, wouldn't you be better with a rapier? Since they have lower stab/low defence respectively.

Rangers and mages are both generally weak to stab/slash, so the rapier performs well on those. The only forgotten class I can see the rapier being bad against are the Forgotten Warriors wearing platebodies.

[xpx]

you will be near useless with rapier on forgotten warriors

 

Warriors wearing chains or only legs, wouldn't you be better with a rapier? Since they have lower stab/low defence respectively.

Rangers and mages are both generally weak to stab/slash, so the rapier performs well on those. The only forgotten class I can see the rapier being bad against are the Forgotten Warriors wearing platebodies.

I mostly meant the full armored ''primal'' warriors or earth warriors because those are really the toughest and longest to kill for any melee monster, even with a 2h. And well, realistically, because the difference in accuracy bonus is so huge(twofold), the rapier will not shine against any melee armored monster. For occult floors, mercifully, there are very few armored monsters, and the special monsters are usually very weak to stabbing attacks(dragons, demons, hellhounds, ghosts), making rapier more useful on occult than it was on abandoned floors.

[SirIzenhime]

I wasn't aiming for floor selection, I find plenty of Forgotten's in the Occult floors :P

But have any full tests been done on the Fogotten warriors? They're the only forgotten type in Damonhiem that vary within certain tiers. So the defense of them is largely Dependant on what they're wearing when you fight them. I'd find it slightly surprising to hear that a Rapier couldn't hit well on a primal warrior only wearing platelegs. For those wearing PLatebodies, you'd be insane to not use a good crush style, but for those wearing chains, wouldn't the weapon choice be more broad, and for those only wearing legs, that should cater to the faster weapons with higher DPS, since they don't have much defense, shouldn't it?

[Zaaps1]

no, they are dramatically different. Not THAT(obviously comparing to accuracy bonuses) dramatically different, they are not.

 

By the way, the max hit with prom spear and primal rapier is exactly the same with ~t7 berserker, so keep that in mind. Prom 2h hits 27% higher than primal rapier so for low defense or stab weak monsters rapier will be much better than 2h(and there are actually alot of low defense monsters on the new occult theme, most of them being high-kill priority.

 

And on high-defense monsters?

 

I'd rather get hit 1-2 more times killing an Animated Book than spend forever killing something like a Black Demon.

 

Of course, you could say that the team will cover those for you, but that only proves that 2H is better than the Rapier. The Rapier is only situationally better because the team would appreciate the Rapier's support. And even at that, I can't see it as anything more than a convenience. I've never seen any outstanding usefulness in the player who used a Rapier (in Abandoned 2 and Occult, I can't speak of c1 rushes because I've only done those solo), and when I used it myself, it was way too much of a hassle.

[All_Is_Great]

I personally use a prom 2h, and found it's high stats preforms really well on bosses. My friend bound a primal rapier the other day, and it had pretty average stats, the only good thing about it is its speed and stab I guess. So pick which ones you want: power + accuracy, or speed.

[uzi0espil]

yea i agree with all is great !

 

because 2h is always better in dungeons! because u dont want to train str or something in there?!!? or train slayer to get over 1000 monester while xping

 

2h here is used to fight some monesters and get to the boss and the important to get all bonus and never die thats it then u will get the same dungeon xp ^^

 

i believe 2h in dungeon training way to much better than rapier

 

but rapier in other training like chaotic rapier is way to better to train while slaying or umm str-atk-def training or other than dungeoneering ^^

 

because here u want to care about fast xp

[xpx]

You guys seem to be missing the point, as i already said, as an overall weapon(ie. killing every monster in the dungeon once) the 2h is better. no arguing that, it's a fact, and i'll be satisfied with this.

 

BUT, on a 5:5 dungeon, you don't get to choose ONE weapon, you get to choose FIVE weapons. There's a huge difference in having a choice of 5 weapons than only having the choice of one- namely, your weapon DOESN'T have to be overall the best weapon, but be best for the TEAM. Team play is alot different from solo play because you don't necessarily need to be overall good, but can specialize, ie. key-bearers in dungeoneering. Because of this, your choice of weapons is also larger, but, for the most part, other people will have bound either prom 2h's or prim battleaxes, because they are overall good weapons. So taking this knowledge into account, you can easily understand that the rapier is actually a great choice because it specializes particularly on the weak points of a team(low defense, stab and speed) and thus will make the team better more so than with a 2h or battleaxe.

[SirIzenhime]

I already understand that, I just want to know how it performs on the 3 variation of Forgotten warriors.

[Quyneax]

I use a rapier for the exact reason xpx gives. And I manage to get berserker titles going agains 2h's/spears on 5:1 (using a gorgonite rapier vs. a prom spear/gorg 2h). That's not once or twice, but just every so often. A rapier is a great niche weapon, and I'd recommend binding a primal one if you have a fixed team (like I do) and you can actually choose your 5 weapons.