Abortion

[Nomrombom]

First off, I was thinking more along the lines of 'stop having sex if you aren't planning on having a baby.' If our generation had some self control, we wouldn't be in this problem, tbh. And to the rest of that paragraph, I'm sure you could find succinct answers somewhere else. Look into it yourself. I know the Catholic Church has answers for those questions.

 

>implying other generations had so much more self control

 

The US population growth rate is actually decreasing, believe it or not (source: census.gov). And look at this:

 

(source: cdc.gov via wikipedia)

 

The blue is the baby boomers. If anything, we have more self control than they.

 

How can you even say that when laws are not universal? Are you meaning to tell me that because the law doesn't find raping and killing a woman who has had an affair somewhere in the Middle East murder, that it isn't? You are basically saying that the laws determine our morals, and that is far from the truth.

 

Technically, that would not be murder (assuming it is allowed by law). Is it wrong (IMO)? Yes. Is it ridiculous and backwards (IMO)? Yes. I am simply saying that in the US, at current time, abortion is not murder because it does not fit the definition of murder. Murder is also defined as the killing of a human being specifically, and since nobody can rightfully make a blanket statement whether fetuses are human beings or not, nobody can rightfully make a blanket statement that abortion is murder.

 

God gave us dominion over the rest of the earth. That's why we're allowed to kill the things you said (except for people). There are exceptions though, because caring for God's creation is one of the key themes of Catholic Social Justice. And it sounds like you're making your own assumption as to whether the fetus can be considered living or not. Who are you to make this call?

 

Deities don't count for anything here. We don't know that any deity exists and so any "rights" or "dominion" or whatever you want to call it "given" by one is not an acceptable reason for anything (not to mention that because one of the basic human rights agreed upon by all but 3 nations is freedom of religion, so the laws/rules given by one deity may not govern universal law). And why are we allowed to kill people under so many circumstances? I am not making any assumptions as to whether a fetus can be considered living. I am asking why anyone has the right to define it.

[Noxx]

I think he forgot about the 60's.

[Duff]

First off, I was thinking more along the lines of 'stop having sex if you aren't planning on having a baby.' If our generation had some self control, we wouldn't be in this problem, tbh. And to the rest of that paragraph, I'm sure you could find succinct answers somewhere else. Look into it yourself. I know the Catholic Church has answers for those questions.

 

>implying other generations had so much more self control

 

The US population growth rate is actually decreasing, believe it or not (source: census.gov). And look at this:

 

(source: cdc.gov via wikipedia)

 

The blue is the baby boomers. If anything, we have more self control than they.

That's entirely besides the point. We need to get some self control instead of giving people a morally wrong (in my opinion, and the Church's) way out of having a child.

How can you even say that when laws are not universal? Are you meaning to tell me that because the law doesn't find raping and killing a woman who has had an affair somewhere in the Middle East murder, that it isn't? You are basically saying that the laws determine our morals, and that is far from the truth.

 

Technically, that would not be murder (assuming it is allowed by law). Is it wrong (IMO)? Yes. Is it ridiculous and backwards (IMO)? Yes. I am simply saying that in the US, at current time, abortion is not murder because it does not fit the definition of murder. Murder is also defined as the killing of a human being specifically, and since nobody can rightfully make a blanket statement whether fetuses are human beings or not, nobody can rightfully make a blanket statement that abortion is murder.

Simply because we cannot come to an agreement that a fetus is a human being or not doesn't mean it's automatically not a human being, and therefore not capable of being murdered. Plus, we're focusing on stupid labels/English words, when the act itself, the killing of another person, is the same in both instances, regardless of if you're in the United States or the Middle East.

 

God gave us dominion over the rest of the earth. That's why we're allowed to kill the things you said (except for people). There are exceptions though, because caring for God's creation is one of the key themes of Catholic Social Justice. And it sounds like you're making your own assumption as to whether the fetus can be considered living or not. Who are you to make this call?

 

Deities don't count for anything here. We don't know that any deity exists and so any "rights" or "dominion" or whatever you want to call it "given" by one is not an acceptable reason for anything (not to mention that because one of the basic human rights agreed upon by all but 3 nations is freedom of religion, so the laws/rules given by one deity may not govern universal law). And why are we allowed to kill people under so many circumstances? I am not making any assumptions as to whether a fetus can be considered living. I am asking why anyone has the right to define it.

In what circumstance are we told to kill people when they aren't threatening our own life? This is an honest question. The Church doesn't support the killing of anyone. It would rather have no one die, but when the circumstance involves one's own life, they make an exception. This doesn't mean they support killing.

[Randox]

Just as a first point, I resent people using the "The Church" to describe religion against abortion, on the grounds that I am an observant Christian, and my faith does not forbid abortions at all (or any other form of birth control).

 

I have no issue with abortions. The way I see it, if someone makes a mistake, and someone gets pregnant, I would rather see the pregnancy aborted rather than watch the child ruin the life of the parents (which seems to be what happens in most cases of teenage pregnancy). And not only does the child often destroy at least the mothers prospects for a good future, but the child suffers both physically, as the parent(s) stuggle to provide for them, and emotionally because one day that child is going to learn that their birth, at that time in life, has had serious detrimental effects on the parents.

 

I would rather that the mother have a chance to abort if she wants to, and get her life on track before she has kids, and be able to provide properly for herself and her children, rather than have both her and her child suffer because of a mistake or an accident (condoms can fail).

 

And on birth control in general, I would say it is a necessity brought on us by our social development. Before our social development was so complex, it would have been perfectly normal to become parents about as soon as physically possible. But to function in the here and now, there are years of study and social interactions (like getting a job) that need to be completed before we are ready to be parents, and mature enough to deal with the enormous pressures of modern life, and being a parent all at once. Since evolution hasn't decided to dampen our libido until our early 20's, it makes perfect sense (to me) that we would develop a way to deal with the demands of nature, without destroying our social future. I think the idea that our urge to have sex long before it is socially responsible to do so is some sort of test that we are meant to overcome is ridiculous, and the expectation that we all just abstain even more so. It is more responsible to deal with the problem that has been created than it is to just stand there and say "we aren't going to fix it because it shouldn't be happening".

 

And as a final religious note, since I'd say that's where most of the debate lies, the God I believe in isn't going to just cast the soul of an aborted fetus into limbo or hell. Either the soul will be sent strait to heaven, or it will be given another chance at life on this Earth with another body.

 

EDIT: I guess I have one more point. A scientific pairing to the one above. Is a fetus living? Yes, obviously. But I would consider it to be alive in the same was as a tree, or a sperm cell. It fits the definition of alive, but not the definition of a sentient being. At least not until the final stages of development. And I have no reason to believe that killing a non-sentient being is murder, or else you would have to consider every camp fire to be cremating a corpse, and your immune system would literally be responsible of mass genocide (there is an entire part of it dedicated to foreign dna).

[Duff]

By "Chuch," I mean the Catholic Church.

 

And as a note, the Catholic Church does not damn unbaptized, unborn children to hell. That doesn't mean that it doesn't matter if these unborn children die or not. Every life is precious.

 

You act like it's the childs fault that it's causing 'problems' for the mother and father. It is in no way the child's fault. It's completely the parents fault, and all the blame is on them for being irresponsible. Don't even begin to accuse an innocent child for being at fault for something that was entirely the parents' faults.

[Randox]

No, I don't think its the child's fault. The problems may stem from them, but they are not responsible for them because it was not through their own action.

 

And it's not always anyone's fault (at least not in terms of the parents). As I said, condoms, even when used perfectly have a failure rate. Then you have things like rape, where it is clearly not the mothers fault that she got pregnant.

 

And even if it is the parents fault, because lets face it, that normally is the case, what I am saying is that that mistake shouldn't have to punish them for the rest of their lives. Most of my concern here is actually for the child, who is ultimately the one who is going to suffer the most from this, both from subpar parental care, and sever extra emotional burden (because they are going to realize that there existence has made their parents lives [materially] worse).

 

I believe that subjecting a child to that kind of physical and emotional burden is unfair, and cruel.

 

EDIT: Regardless of what I think, I do feel that people are entitled to their own opinion on this kind of thing. If your religion, or your personal morals are going to demand you go one way or the other, all the power to you. One of the ideals I hold very dear to my heart is that you don't have the right to impose your personal views/belief's on other people (and I consider all religious views as personal). The only person who's opinion on abortion really matters though, is that of the Mother of the Child. No one has the right to interfere with that choice. Not her parents, not her boyfriend/fiancée/husband. The only body that gets a bigger say is the law. Everyone else can suck it up and accept their choice, one way or the other.

[Duff]

I believe that subjecting a child to that kind of physical and emotional burden is unfair, and cruel.

So instead, we deprive them of life, possibly the greatest gift given to anyone.

 

And though I agree that everyone is going to have differing opinions, the Catholic Church's goal is for all people to obtain salvation. It is it's responsibility to tell people when they are in error. They don't force this belief on people. They don't force anything on anyone.

[Nomrombom]

Should abortion be illegal?

 

And randox, I applaud you. Some good reasoning you have there.

[Guest Rob]

Should abortion be illegal?

 

In my opinion, abortion should be legal, but discouraged. If we give people the choice to have one, but they choose not to, then they're not upset because they don't have a choice, and the other side doesn't get upset as fetuses are not being aborted.

 

So sort-of pro-choice for pro-life. Obviously that would never work, because people are going to get pregnant accidentally but not want to have children. But it'd be the ideal situation, I think.

[Giordano]

And though I agree that everyone is going to have differing opinions, the Catholic Church's goal is for all people to obtain salvation. It is it's responsibility to tell people when they are in error. They don't force this belief on people. They don't force anything on anyone.

 

When they vote for abortion to be illegal, they're forcing their beliefs in people.

 

When people vote for abortion to be legal, they're giving the option to those who want it.

 

See the difference?

[Noxx]

And though I agree that everyone is going to have differing opinions, the Catholic Church's goal is for all people to obtain salvation. It is it's responsibility to tell people when they are in error. They don't force this belief on people. They don't force anything on anyone.

 

When they vote for abortion to be illegal, they're forcing their beliefs in people.

 

When people vote for abortion to be legal, they're giving the option to those who want it.

 

See the difference?

I got ninja'd...

[Nomrombom]

And though I agree that everyone is going to have differing opinions, the Catholic Church's goal is for all people to obtain salvation. It is it's responsibility to tell people when they are in error. They don't force this belief on people. They don't force anything on anyone.

 

When they vote for abortion to be illegal, they're forcing their beliefs in people.

 

When people vote for abortion to be legal, they're giving the option to those who want it.

 

See the difference?

 

QFT

[Duff]

They don't force people to believe that abortion is wrong. And they have every right to vote against abortion. Since when has that ever been a problem. The government allows us to vote against it. There is nothing wrong with taking this option. So technically, the government is giving us the option to 'force' our beliefs on people. Get angry at them if your angry about feeling 'forced' to believe something.

[Giordano]

They don't force people to believe that abortion is wrong. And they have every right to vote against abortion. Since when has that ever been a problem. The government allows us to vote against it. There is nothing wrong with taking this option. So technically, the government is giving us the option to 'force' our beliefs on people. Get angry at them if your angry about feeling 'forced' to believe something.

Stop taking the blame of your irrational beliefs onto something else. Man up and allow other people to conduct their own options to their lives.

[Duff]

Lol. The Church wouldn't be an institution that holds solidarity as one of it's themes of social justice if it just let people commit, in it's eyes, morally wrong actions. Granted, the majority of people don't agree with the Church on matters of what is morally right and wrong. I get that. However, the Church believes in heaven, and it wants all people to have as best a shot as possible to get there. It's not like its intentions are in the wrong place.

 

And that's all I'll say.

[obfuscator]

There's plenty of "belief forcing" that happens regularly in our society. It just goes according to popular opinion so most people don't care.

[Noxx]

Lol. The Church wouldn't be an institution that holds solidarity as one of it's themes of social justice if it just let people commit, in it's eyes, morally wrong actions. Granted, the majority of people don't agree with the Church on matters of what is morally right and wrong. I get that. However, the Church believes in heaven, and it wants all people to have as best a shot as possible to get there. It's not like its intentions are in the wrong place.

 

And that's all I'll say.

But i do not. And neither do a lot of other people. The Church should concern themselves with their own matters and leave the legal matters to the Law. The law is doing what they believe is in the best interest for ALL the people. Giving people the option is what is best, not trying to force them in one direction. I don't want some cult meddling with my life and what should be my choices just like you don't want heathens meddling with yours. So it's intentions would be in the wrong place because it would force people to break away from what THEY really want ad would be forced to do what "the Church" sees right.

[Nomrombom]

There's plenty of "belief forcing" that happens regularly in our society. It just goes according to popular opinion so most people don't care.

 

[honestquestion]Could you give us some examples (just so I know whether what I'm thinking is right)? [/honestquestion]

[Duff]

Lol. The Church wouldn't be an institution that holds solidarity as one of it's themes of social justice if it just let people commit, in it's eyes, morally wrong actions. Granted, the majority of people don't agree with the Church on matters of what is morally right and wrong. I get that. However, the Church believes in heaven, and it wants all people to have as best a shot as possible to get there. It's not like its intentions are in the wrong place.

 

And that's all I'll say.

But i do not. And neither do a lot of other people. The Church should concern themselves with their own matters and leave the legal matters to the Law. The law is doing what they believe is in the best interest for ALL the people. Giving people the option is what is best, not trying to force them in one direction. I don't want some cult meddling with my life and what should be my choices just like you don't want heathens meddling with yours. So it's intentions would be in the wrong place because it would force people to break away from what THEY really want ad would be forced to do what "the Church" sees right.

The Church's 'own matter' is the salvation of all people. The Church is doing what it believes in in the best interest for ALL the people.

 

Giving people the option is not what is best. Would a parent want to give their son the option of burning his hand on an open stove? People just don't want to live a life according to the Church because they can't do whatever they want in such a life.

 

What a person 'wants' is not always what is best for them, Noxxx. The Church wants the best for everyone, and there is no harm in that intention.

[Nomrombom]

Yeah, but they're not our parents. Most people don't want the church telling them what's right and wrong, good and bad. So they should [bleep] off.

[Giordano]

They decide what option is best FOR THEMSELVES. I never claimed I wanted to go to heaven. I never asked for help to get there. Why should my life be influenced to go to heaven, when I don't even want to go?

[Noxx]

Lol. The Church wouldn't be an institution that holds solidarity as one of it's themes of social justice if it just let people commit, in it's eyes, morally wrong actions. Granted, the majority of people don't agree with the Church on matters of what is morally right and wrong. I get that. However, the Church believes in heaven, and it wants all people to have as best a shot as possible to get there. It's not like its intentions are in the wrong place.

 

And that's all I'll say.

But i do not. And neither do a lot of other people. The Church should concern themselves with their own matters and leave the legal matters to the Law. The law is doing what they believe is in the best interest for ALL the people. Giving people the option is what is best, not trying to force them in one direction. I don't want some cult meddling with my life and what should be my choices just like you don't want heathens meddling with yours. So it's intentions would be in the wrong place because it would force people to break away from what THEY really want ad would be forced to do what "the Church" sees right.

The Church's 'own matter' is the salvation of all people. The Church is doing what it believes in in the best interest for ALL the people.

 

Giving people the option is not what is best. Would a parent want to give their son the option of burning his hand on an open stove? People just don't want to live a life according to the Church because they can't do whatever they want in such a life.

 

What a person 'wants' is not always what is best for them, Noxxx. The Church wants the best for everyone, and there is no harm in that intention.

And what makes the church think they know what's in my best interest? What gives them the authority? And we only have 1 life. I don't need a guy telling me what he think's i should do just because he thinks it's in my best interest because he believes in fairy tales and ghosts. I'm pretty sure most people know what's in their best interest without having someone tell them. We do not always do what is in our best interest because it is our human nature.

[Duff]

I guess where we're not connecting is the fact that you seem to think I don't know that people don't believe the Church should be telling us what to do. But I do. The Church believes it should, and so it does. Whether you believe in heaven or not, it is going to try and get you there. No amount of telling it to [bleep] off will make it do otherwise.

 

I don't see how the Church is thinking of themselves. Since heaven is a place of ultimate happiness, and everyone (yes, everyone) wants to be happy; what makes them think you'd want otherwise? The Church wants everyone to be ultimately and eternally happy. Only someone with an psychological order would not want to be happy.

 

EDIT: @Noxxx: The Church believes it has knowledge of what's in the best interests of everyone through Tradition and Scripture. I obviously know you don't believe that. But just because you don't believe they don't have the authority doesn't change the fact that they think they do. And quit being disrespectful and calling my religion a bunch of fairy tales and ghosts.

[Noxx]

So you want us to be eternally happy but before we get there you want us to have a miserable life by trying force us to do things your way.

[sees_all1]

I don't see how the Church is thinking of themselves. Since heaven is a place of ultimate happiness, and everyone (yes, everyone) wants to be happy; what makes them think you'd want otherwise? The Church wants everyone to be ultimately and eternally happy. Only someone with an psychological order would not want to be happy.

One hypothesis is that when you die, God will give you whatever you want the most. If you want anything but God, you'll find yourself in hell (as whatever it is you picked can't fulfill your deepest wants and needs, unless it's God).