Abortion

[Duff]

So you want us to be eternally happy but before we get there you want us to have a miserable life by trying force us to do things your way.

Exchanging a life of challenges for an eternity of happiness. Yes, I think that sounds like a good deal.

[Noxx]

So you want us to be eternally happy but before we get there you want us to have a miserable life by trying force us to do things your way.

Exchanging a life of challenges for an eternity of happiness. Yes, I think that sounds like a good deal.

In your eyes yes. Because you choose to believe in a fairy tale. In my eyes no. Because i choose to believe in science.

[obfuscator]

There's plenty of "belief forcing" that happens regularly in our society. It just goes according to popular opinion so most people don't care.

 

[honestquestion]Could you give us some examples (just so I know whether what I'm thinking is right)? [/honestquestion]

 

Well, when I say "belief forcing", what I mean is that there's a certain set of beliefs that's considered "acceptable", and anyone outside of that is shunned.

 

For example - I believe abortion is murder, but apparently that's not an acceptable belief. I will be and have been constantly ridiculed for it in every facet of life, by individuals, the media, etc.

I also believe words shouldn't be off limits. I don't believe political correctness serves the best interests of society, but if I say so, I'll be shunned.

 

Gay Straight Alliances mandated in catholic schools. What happened to freedom of religion?

A sports commentator fired because he had the audacity to say the exact words "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman". What happened to freedom of speech?

A knights of columbus (catholic organization) sued successfully because they refused to host a gay marriage reception. Freedom of religion, yet again..

 

Freedom in theory, but only in practice if you want to conform to the flavor of the month.

 

For example, I believe incest, bestiality and some degree of pedophilia will be legal. If I try to make a defense for those now (although I find them all morally deplorable), I'll be ridiculed. But once they become the flavor of the month (which is slowly happening), popular opinion will shift and the way we look at those things now will be seen the exact same way as someone who thinks marriage should be between a man and a woman.

[Nomrombom]

Why do you find bestiality morally deplorable? Or incest?

 

 

Wow, of all the things to respond to in that post, I picked those...

[Duff]

So you want us to be eternally happy but before we get there you want us to have a miserable life by trying force us to do things your way.

Exchanging a life of challenges for an eternity of happiness. Yes, I think that sounds like a good deal.

In your eyes yes. Because you choose to believe in a fairy tale. In my eyes no. Because i choose to believe in science.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't label religious doctrine in such a condescending manner. It isn't very mature.

 

Oh, in your eyes, is an eternity of happiness not worth a short life of challenges? Is that not a good deal? That was your question to me. Now I ask it of you.

 

If your answer is that it does sound like a good deal (which it will be), then you'll understand why the Church is doing what it is doing.

 

And I find it too funny that you label a good Catholic life as miserable. You can't have sex until your married? How awful! You can't abort a child because you never thought that your girlfriend would get pregnant, even though you are thoroughly warned that birth control is not 100% fool proof? Dang, I'm sorry. It's so tough not being able to do everything that you want to do. That sure makes life completely miserable, huh?

[obfuscator]

Why do you find bestiality morally deplorable? Or incest?

 

 

Wow, of all the things to respond to in that post, I picked those...

That's not exactly relevant.

 

But tell me this - if you were to go around your school, or work, proclaiming that incest and bestiality are normal and one should be able to participate in them, how do you think you'd be treated?

[Nomrombom]

So you want us to be eternally happy but before we get there you want us to have a miserable life by trying force us to do things your way.

Exchanging a life of challenges for an eternity of happiness. Yes, I think that sounds like a good deal.

In your eyes yes. Because you choose to believe in a fairy tale. In my eyes no. Because i choose to believe in science.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't label religious doctrine in such a condescending manner. It isn't very mature.

 

Oh, in your eyes, is an eternity of happiness not worth a short life of challenges? Is that not a good deal? That was your question to me. Now I ask it of you.

 

If your answer is that it does sound like a good deal (which it will be), then you'll understand why the Church is doing what it is doing.

 

The problem is we have zero (read: 0, zero, cero, no, none) evidence that heaven exists. Or life after death. Or thought after death. So, while you *might* be right about the afterlife, you also might not. And while we are in this life, people would rather do stuff how they want than have a group of old guys (one in twenty of whom has been involved in child abuse cases, I might add) tell them what is right and wrong and how they have to live their lives.

[Nomrombom]

Why do you find bestiality morally deplorable? Or incest?

 

 

Wow, of all the things to respond to in that post, I picked those...

That's not exactly relevant.

 

But tell me this - if you were to go around your school, or work, proclaiming that incest and bestiality are normal and one should be able to participate in them, how do you think you'd be treated?

 

No, no, of course I get what you meant and I agree. I just wondered why you thought those two in particular were morally bad.

[obfuscator]

Why do you find bestiality morally deplorable? Or incest?

 

 

Wow, of all the things to respond to in that post, I picked those...

That's not exactly relevant.

 

But tell me this - if you were to go around your school, or work, proclaiming that incest and bestiality are normal and one should be able to participate in them, how do you think you'd be treated?

 

No, no, of course I get what you meant and I agree. I just wondered why you thought those two in particular were morally bad.

 

Then we'd be getting off topic ;)

[Noxx]

So you want us to be eternally happy but before we get there you want us to have a miserable life by trying force us to do things your way.

Exchanging a life of challenges for an eternity of happiness. Yes, I think that sounds like a good deal.

In your eyes yes. Because you choose to believe in a fairy tale. In my eyes no. Because i choose to believe in science.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't label religious doctrine in such a condescending manner. It isn't very mature.

 

Oh, in your eyes, is an eternity of happiness not worth a short life of challenges? Is that not a good deal? That was your question to me. Now I ask it of you.

 

If your answer is that it does sound like a good deal (which it will be), then you'll understand why the Church is doing what it is doing.

 

And I find it too funny that you label a good Catholic life as miserable. You can't have sex until your married? How awful! You can't abort a child because you never thought that your girlfriend would get pregnant, even though you are thoroughly warned that birth control is not 100% fool proof? Dang, I'm sorry. It's so tough not being able to do everything that you want to do. That sure makes life completely miserable, huh?

I'd label it how ever i want to :\ If you're not happy with it you're welcome to take it somewhere else.

And now you're just being ignorant because you fully know that faulty birth control is not the only reason women accidentally get pregnant.

Also, in my eyes there is no eternal happiness because like i said, i don't believe in fairy tales. So why should i face any sort of unwanted challenge?

[Kimberly]

The problem is we have zero (read: 0, zero, cero, no, none) evidence that heaven exists. Or life after death. Or thought after death. So, while you *might* be right about the afterlife, you also might not. And while we are in this life, people would rather do stuff how they want than have a group of old guys (one in twenty of whom has been involved in child abuse cases, I might add) tell them what is right and wrong and how they have to live their lives.

 

I find your descriptions to be bland and regurgitated from some anti-religion hatespeech. Especially for someone who is such a strong advocate of science, which is ever changing and fluctuating along with our perception of reality.

 

It's easier to vilify than understand, and that goes both ways.

[Duff]

The problem is we have zero (read: 0, zero, cero, no, none) evidence that heaven exists. Or life after death. Or thought after death. So, while you *might* be right about the afterlife, you also might not. And while we are in this life, people would rather do stuff how they want than have a group of old guys (one in twenty of whom has been involved in child abuse cases, I might add) tell them what is right and wrong and how they have to live their lives.

Once again, I know this. I know that people don't want to have the Magisterium (lovely ad hominem, by the way) tell them what to do. That is not what we are arguing (at least, I am not). The point is, the Church does believe in an afterlife, and therefore acts accordingly. You cannot say that their intentions are bad. You don't have to believe it, but it (the Church) is in existence and will continue to urge people to live lives that follow Church teaching. They're trying to help people live better lives. That's why they're 'telling' people what to do. You don't like it? Too bad. They have every right to want happiness for everyone.

[Guest Rob]

So you want us to be eternally happy but before we get there you want us to have a miserable life by trying force us to do things your way.

Exchanging a life of challenges for an eternity of happiness. Yes, I think that sounds like a good deal.

In your eyes yes. Because you choose to believe in a fairy tale. In my eyes no. Because i choose to believe in science.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't label religious doctrine in such a condescending manner. It isn't very mature.

 

Oh, in your eyes, is an eternity of happiness not worth a short life of challenges? Is that not a good deal? That was your question to me. Now I ask it of you.

 

If your answer is that it does sound like a good deal (which it will be), then you'll understand why the Church is doing what it is doing.

 

And I find it too funny that you label a good Catholic life as miserable. You can't have sex until your married? How awful! You can't abort a child because you never thought that your girlfriend would get pregnant, even though you are thoroughly warned that birth control is not 100% fool proof? Dang, I'm sorry. It's so tough not being able to do everything that you want to do. That sure makes life completely miserable, huh?

I'd label it how ever i want to :\ If you're not happy with it you're welcome to take it somewhere else.

And now you're just being ignorant because you fully know that faulty birth control is not the only reason women accidentally get pregnant.

Also, in my eyes there is no eternal happiness because like i said, i don't believe in fairy tales. So why should i face any sort of unwanted challenge?

 

It doesn't really matter if you believe in heaven or not; It won't change anyone's views. There's plenty of reasons that people may not want abortion to be legal regardless of their religious views. Why not discuss those, instead of pointlessly insulting his religion and offending people?

[obfuscator]

Not to mention the "one in twenty are pedophiles" is a completely irrelevant ad hominem.

 

But hey, I'm used to it.

[Nomrombom]

It sure is.

 

Edit: Well it's not entirely irrelevant. It's just another thing that reduces the amount of sense this "forcing of beliefs" (or whatever we want to call it) by the Church makes.

[Duff]

So you want us to be eternally happy but before we get there you want us to have a miserable life by trying force us to do things your way.

Exchanging a life of challenges for an eternity of happiness. Yes, I think that sounds like a good deal.

In your eyes yes. Because you choose to believe in a fairy tale. In my eyes no. Because i choose to believe in science.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't label religious doctrine in such a condescending manner. It isn't very mature.

 

Oh, in your eyes, is an eternity of happiness not worth a short life of challenges? Is that not a good deal? That was your question to me. Now I ask it of you.

 

If your answer is that it does sound like a good deal (which it will be), then you'll understand why the Church is doing what it is doing.

 

And I find it too funny that you label a good Catholic life as miserable. You can't have sex until your married? How awful! You can't abort a child because you never thought that your girlfriend would get pregnant, even though you are thoroughly warned that birth control is not 100% fool proof? Dang, I'm sorry. It's so tough not being able to do everything that you want to do. That sure makes life completely miserable, huh?

I'd label it how ever i want to :\ If you're not happy with it you're welcome to take it somewhere else.

And now you're just being ignorant because you fully know that faulty birth control is not the only reason women accidentally get pregnant.

Also, in my eyes there is no eternal happiness because like i said, i don't believe in fairy tales. So why should i face any sort of unwanted challenge?

 

Posts that are disparaging toward any religion, race, nation, social status, gender, or sexual orientation are strictly forbidden. User names (and profile information) may not be offensive, vulgar, profane, or abusive. Excessive or obscene cursing will be edited or deleted. We have a censor in place to disguise certain inappropriate words. Bypassing it with text, images or videos will cause your post to be edited, deleted, or more severe punishments for repeat offenders. Any post explicitly sexual in nature, abusing our censor, or in any way violating the law, may be edited or removed and the user may be banned (at the discretion of the Administrators).

Thanks Noxx. I'm sure you understand.

 

And I do know fully well that faulty birth control is not the only reason women get pregnant. Would you like me to write a few essays that cover every example of a complaint a person would have against the Church?

 

I didn't ask if there was eternal happiness. I asked, if there was, would it be worth a challenging life to achieve it. It's a simple question. I'm asking you to put yourself in the Church's shoes. If you did believe in eternal happiness, would you not want to help everyone try and achieve it, even if it means living a challenging life here on earth.

[Zeno]

I honestly am at a neutral spot in this discussion, however in my personal opinion I wouldn't abort a child because of my morals

[obfuscator]

It sure is.

 

Edit: Well it's not entirely irrelevant. It's just another thing that reduces the amount of sense this "forcing of beliefs" (or whatever we want to call it) by the Church makes.

No, it is completely irrelevant. It's an example of the fallacy ad hominem, which is using irrelevant information in an attempt to defame character in order to win an argument.

 

That's like saying that Bill Clinton never did anything good as president because he had a sex scandal, or that all Nirvana music is bad because Kurt Cobain killed himself.

[Noxx]

So you want us to be eternally happy but before we get there you want us to have a miserable life by trying force us to do things your way.

Exchanging a life of challenges for an eternity of happiness. Yes, I think that sounds like a good deal.

In your eyes yes. Because you choose to believe in a fairy tale. In my eyes no. Because i choose to believe in science.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't label religious doctrine in such a condescending manner. It isn't very mature.

 

Oh, in your eyes, is an eternity of happiness not worth a short life of challenges? Is that not a good deal? That was your question to me. Now I ask it of you.

 

If your answer is that it does sound like a good deal (which it will be), then you'll understand why the Church is doing what it is doing.

 

And I find it too funny that you label a good Catholic life as miserable. You can't have sex until your married? How awful! You can't abort a child because you never thought that your girlfriend would get pregnant, even though you are thoroughly warned that birth control is not 100% fool proof? Dang, I'm sorry. It's so tough not being able to do everything that you want to do. That sure makes life completely miserable, huh?

I'd label it how ever i want to :\ If you're not happy with it you're welcome to take it somewhere else.

And now you're just being ignorant because you fully know that faulty birth control is not the only reason women accidentally get pregnant.

Also, in my eyes there is no eternal happiness because like i said, i don't believe in fairy tales. So why should i face any sort of unwanted challenge?

 

Posts that are disparaging toward any religion, race, nation, social status, gender, or sexual orientation are strictly forbidden. User names (and profile information) may not be offensive, vulgar, profane, or abusive. Excessive or obscene cursing will be edited or deleted. We have a censor in place to disguise certain inappropriate words. Bypassing it with text, images or videos will cause your post to be edited, deleted, or more severe punishments for repeat offenders. Any post explicitly sexual in nature, abusing our censor, or in any way violating the law, may be edited or removed and the user may be banned (at the discretion of the Administrators).

Thanks Noxx. I'm sure you understand.

 

And I do know fully well that faulty birth control is not the only reason women get pregnant. Would you like me to write a few essays that cover every example of a complaint a person would have against the Church?

 

I didn't ask if there was eternal happiness. I asked, if there was, would it be worth a challenging life to achieve it. It's a simple question.

Write them up. I'd like to hear your thoughts. PM them to me whenever you're done.

 

And to answer your question, it would probably be worth it IF there was an afterlife.

[Duff]

Now that you've answered my question, you have an idea of what the Church feels. And that was what I was getting at.

[Nomrombom]

It sure is.

 

Edit: Well it's not entirely irrelevant. It's just another thing that reduces the amount of sense this "forcing of beliefs" (or whatever we want to call it) by the Church makes.

No, it is completely irrelevant. It's an example of the fallacy ad hominem, which is using irrelevant information in an attempt to defame character in order to win an argument.

 

The character of the church is relevant in the current string of discussions as to whether the church should try to force beliefs on people. If the church itself is of bad character, it has no place telling others how to live their lives, which is the side I am arguing from. I would like to bring in the Inquisitions and some other things as well, but we're already somewhat off topic, and I have a penchant for extending that... <_< >­­_>

[Noxx]

Now that you've answered my question, you have an idea of what the Church feels. And that was what I was getting at.

I'm pretty sure my idea of what the church wants and your idea of what it wants are still two very different things. I'm sure that's not what you were getting at.

But okay. Time to stop going of topic, i think.

[Duff]

The humans of the Church can be flawed (why else did the Crusades and the Inquisition happen?). And I highly doubt that 1 in every 20 people who make up the Magisterium (that is, the teaching authority) are pedophiles. Actually, I'd doubt if any of them were. They're the ones who agree on Church teaching, who decide what it is. Because various priests around the world have made mistakes does not mean the current doctrine is of bad character.

[obfuscator]

It sure is.

 

Edit: Well it's not entirely irrelevant. It's just another thing that reduces the amount of sense this "forcing of beliefs" (or whatever we want to call it) by the Church makes.

No, it is completely irrelevant. It's an example of the fallacy ad hominem, which is using irrelevant information in an attempt to defame character in order to win an argument.

 

The character of the church is relevant in the current string of discussions as to whether the church should try to force beliefs on people. If the church itself is of bad character, it has no place telling others how to live their lives, which is the side I am arguing from. I would like to bring in the Inquisitions and some other things as well, but we're already somewhat off topic, and I have a penchant for extending that... <_< >­­_>

 

No it is not. That's all there is to it. In a civilized debate, one does not use ad hominen attacks. That's it.

 

EDIT: Yeah, all this discussion would be much better suited to the other thread.

[Kimberly]

I asked, if there was, would it be worth a challenging life to achieve it.

 

Who can say no to a question like that? But salvation comes to whoever accepts the Christian Lord as their Saviour regardless of what life they lead before that. I could live a sinful life until my end of days and repent with sincerity and a humble heart and (possibly) be Saved. And while the true test for the spirit of a man or woman would be to love a child gotten on them by rape or otherwise would be to love them unconditionally, we aren't perfect. According to Christianity, the only perfect person who walked among us was the Christ who even then gave himself to save us.

 

People pursuing something so drastic as abortion because of irresponsible behavior is a dangerous thing in society, but it has root problems elsewhere. And they need to be addressed in other ways. We all have natures, and the free will to choose within that nature. It's not for the government to save our eternal souls and outright ban abortion. That is an individual's responsibility. But at the same time we can't be wholly concerned with theology because we also have to remember the world we live in. That's why there's a moderation when it comes to the laws, late term abortion being banned in the states. There's another life at stake, at that point.But beyond those restrictions in place right now, I don't think it's right to do anything further. (ie outright ban of abortion/outright legalization)

 

I'm sure that in some places, my understanding of Christianity is rusty. And I'm sure I'll be corrected, either in my understanding or my logic. But these are my personal beliefs.