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stonewall337

The Bind System

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XPX, time=/=difficulty. No skill is "hard" really. There are time consuming skills, buyable skills "semi-afkable skills" etc. DGing is the ONE skill which actually takes some measure of skill. That is why I don't think changing the bind system to provide some lesser used items. Binding primal boots/gaunts temporarily would not only provide some reason to do c6 frozen floors, but also give the boots some use. However, it wouldn't significantly speed things up, or make things "easier" really.

 

Another idea: I'd give up my primal plate to try out a blood necklace, if I could get primal plate back and swap out BN. That is the whole idea of a "bind bank". I'd use BN on certain floors, plate on others, etc. I could switch between primal baxe/2h/spear in order to try all.

 

Look at it this way: Most people aren't going to change their current setup to try out a bunch of new things because its not practical. In fact, I'd even be willing to lose my 3rd bind for one floor when switching between items, in order to prevent the "bind bank" from making things too easily.

 

 

And Assasin, C Cat staff>doomcore.

Actually, in runescape, as nothing really takes any skill(relative, may have something to do with boredom/grinding), the hardness of skills is mostly, if not entirely defined by how fast the skills are. Runecrafting, in no way, is a hard to level skill(doesn't take any extraordinary talents), but it is said to be the hardest skill because it takes most time. On the flipside, fletching and cooking are seen as easy skills, just because the xp rate is high. If cooking was 30k xp an hour, it'd be considered hard.

 

That said, dungeoneering is a skill that does take a bit more 'skill' than the others, but at the same time, it is also more fun. The difficulty in training dungeoneering depends largely on two factors- teammates and binds, and we can't just change the balance. It is next to confirmed ~45 dungeoneering will get another bind, so with 4 binds at level 100 and 5 at 120, i think we are set in the number of items we can possibly allow to bring into dungeons. While some binds will forever be more worthwhile than others(mage gloves/boots, for example), having to make this choice also adds difficulty. I can see how swapping one 'normal' bind for a second 'ammo' bind could work(further in the light of the upcoming new bind slot), and i can see allowing the binding of the same tier of the same combat class gloves/boots in one normal slot, but not introducing new binds for these items.

 

As for bind bank, it's a good idea, but it'd need good balancing. I can see it working assuming you have 10 normal bank slots and ~3-4 ammo slots and can only access the bank while you reset your prestige to not allow making dungeons much easier(changing weapons for what specific dungeons you are doing). I think this would keep the difficulty intact while allowing you to bind and use items that are not always the best, but add variety.


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I think the bind bank idea needs to somehow be compiled onto the RSOF in order to possibly get formal recognition by the dev team, as I think it is a worth idea.


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tbh, i think hotkeys should be implemented into pvm and pvp. I am an avid D2 fan and I couldn't imagine it without binds going through levels. It simply opens up so many more viable doors for training. The only reason I don't mind so much in Rs is because I am used to not using binds.

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tbh, i think hotkeys should be implemented into pvm and pvp. I am an avid D2 fan and I couldn't imagine it without binds going through levels. It simply opens up so many more viable doors for training. The only reason I don't mind so much in Rs is because I am used to not using binds.

 

get a programmable mouse and set the extra button to the f keys

 

putting your ring on thebottom of your invent makes quickswitch easier


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Zamorak, your ideas are all fine and fluffy(and i've heard similar ones for a hundred times) but really, what they all tell me is that dungeoneering should be easier in the sense that you would have more binds to work with. I have yet to hear a realistic idea of how you would add variety to the binding system without making dungeoneering easier(as making it easier shouldn't be your goal anyway). Can anyone do that? Seems like a great system to me.

The bind system is good, but it removes any reason for level 11 secondary items such as gloves and boots. There was some effort making these items and putting them as boss drops but nobody looks at them past the boss floor. What he's (Zamorak) asking is a balanced manner to introduce these in a way they can be kept. Offering more binds is not the solution. If Jagex raises the binding number, it won't mean people will bind boots as they'll bind another weapon or armor piece. However, if they introduce a "upper item" (weapon, shield, armor, slayer item) and "lower item" bind (glove, boots, and med helm maybe) so that a level 50 can bind 2 upper and 2 lower items then players have a reason to keep boots and gloves. Yes, it's more bound items but it's more of the minor stuff.

 

Secondly, introduce a "DG Bound Item Box" that can be accessed at the end of a dungeon after a boss. This prevents players from shifting their strengths mid game, yet are not held hostage to one combat type or hybrid. Currently, you can be limited to the team you can participate on. However, at the end of a dungeon during the winter face(say a quicky at level 1) you can shift from Melee to Mage or Range and join another team as another aspect. That's not unbalanced as you're not given more binds to work with in a dungeon, and it's more fun and varied.

 

So yes, the suggestions make things a little easier (bounded gloves and boots), and offer variety for players going for 120 (changing combat settings). Still, it does nothing more than make Dungeoneering more fun and approachable at very little cost to balance. Kudos to whoever thought of both ideas.

The problem is, any idea that would make dungeoneering easier wouldn't fit the bill for that this thread is about- giving more variety. Ofcource you'd use gloves when you'd have more binds, but that's the thing- more binds- which makes the skill easier. I would understand something balanced like giving up binds for a gloves/boots bind or something of that kind, but the last thing you want to do is make it any easier. I can think of a hundred ways of how to make dungeoneering more fun, but most of them would mean getting 120 would become a joke, because, face it, the only hard part is that it takes quite a bit of time.

 

the thing is, the goal is to make it more fun, but not easier. sometimes its imposible to get one and not the other.

if i had the same amount of binds as now, but i have a bind bank and get to chouse for each dungeion, that would make things more fun but only slightly easier. i want more variety as much as anyone, and its just my opinion that bind banks and grater/lesser binds would achive that. yes, there will be sheep who just use the extra binds for stuff like prom gloves and boots just becouse they have prom plate, legs and 2h. but there also would be people who bind other things, i for one, given a grater/lesser bind system, would bind mage gloves/boots and melee plate/weapon.

but if it must be so, other options can be thought of. a "bind power" could be one...

 

you have a set bind power, that goes up level with level (so it goes up from dunge level: 1 to 2 to 3... insted of 1 to 50 to 100...)

each item has a set "bind energy" so a t11 plate would be huge and would limit your binding ability. but a set of t7 gloves and boots would take LESS bind space then a t11 plate (unlike now!)

this means you can bind many small items or a few big items, or anything inbetween. besdies, bind power sounds a lot more like dunge to me :P

 

as you said, its one of many many posible ideas. im not saying its a good one, but it could be.

it is simply my vew that stuff like that would be best, other options are posible. such as forceing veriaty upon people or simple makeing it more advantageous but stuff like that is what rants are made of.

just remember, our vews may differ, but we are after the same goal.


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I don't think for a moment it's hard to achieve both keeping the skills difficulty and adding variety, but the problem lies in the nature of the ideas that are proposed- most people are not after fun, they are after making dungeoneering easier(and thus propose whole new bind slots and what not).

 

The bind bank idea would work assuming you'd be able to access the bank very rarely, like, for instance, every reset, which would keep the difficulty intact and also enable you to switch difficult binds more easily.


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I don't think for a moment it's hard to achieve both keeping the skills difficulty and adding variety, but the problem lies in the nature of the ideas that are proposed- most people are not after fun, they are after making dungeoneering easier(and thus propose whole new bind slots and what not).

 

The bind bank idea would work assuming you'd be able to access the bank very rarely, like, for instance, every reset, which would keep the difficulty intact and also enable you to switch difficult binds more easily.

I still think every floor is ideal. Because that actually lets you coordinate with random teams (which is the majority of dungeoneering)

whereas gear swaps per reset only really benefits perm teams.

 

Take Alien Swarm by valve for example.

Completely team based combat.

You swap out your gear at the start of every level.

 

In that game, there's a ~1 min waiting period before the game starts, or until everybody clicks ready.

And you see what everybody else on your team is equipped with.

That way you can make sure no one class is overcompensated for.

 

something like that would be good. I think a major goal of Jagex with dungeoneering was to promote teamwork afterall.


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I agree with Grimy -- it wouldn't make dungeoneering easier per se, but it would allow for more variety and strategy, especially when using randoms (talking about a bind bank that can be accessed every floor). Grimy's idea for changing the bind system is my favorite thus far. It requires the least amount of balancing, too, which is very good for us (we do play Jagex' game after all).


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I still think every floor is ideal. Because that actually lets you coordinate with random teams (which is the majority of dungeoneering)

whereas gear swaps per reset only really benefits perm teams.

 

I still think most of you don't get where i'm coming from. The WHOLE point of the idea is not to benefit ANYONE, but only add variety. This is the most important aspect of any changes that may come to the bind system. If people want more variety, sure, have some, but if the need for variety is actually masking the need for easier dungeoneering, then no thanks. Per reset would keep the difficulty intact as much as possible while allowing you to use and swap rare binds without the fear of losing them. Variety.

 

Also, Obtaurian, which grimys idea do you particularly like that much?

 

Also, another twist to the bind bank would be for it to coexist with your normal bank in the way that the items in your bind bank count toward your bank space- thus you could bank bind alot of items, but it'd also limit your normal bank items, and jagex wouldn't have to worry about this system needing more memory space.


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I still think every floor is ideal. Because that actually lets you coordinate with random teams (which is the majority of dungeoneering)

whereas gear swaps per reset only really benefits perm teams.

 

I still think most of you don't get where i'm coming from. The WHOLE point of the idea is not to benefit ANYONE, but only add variety. This is the most important aspect of any changes that may come to the bind system. If people want more variety, sure, have some, but if the need for variety is actually masking the need for easier dungeoneering, then no thanks. Per reset would keep the difficulty intact as much as possible while allowing you to use and swap rare binds without the fear of losing them. Variety.

 

Also, Obtaurian, which grimys idea do you particularly like that much?

 

Also, another twist to the bind bank would be for it to coexist with your normal bank in the way that the items in your bind bank count toward your bank space- thus you could bank bind alot of items, but it'd also limit your normal bank items, and jagex wouldn't have to worry about this system needing more memory space.

I don't see why you think a gear swap at the start of each floor is that game breaking.

You're still restricted to the same # of binds.

You can't switch out your gear once the floor starts.

I simply don't see why you think it actually makes it that much easier.

 

So when i meant benefit, I meant benefit teamwork wise.

1 swap per reset almost completely defeats the purpose of the bind bank promoting team work.

It would only promote teamwork amongst perm teams, which are not a majority.

1 swap at the start of each floor promotes teamwork amongst anybody.


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XPX, time=/=difficulty. No skill is "hard" really. There are time consuming skills, buyable skills "semi-afkable skills" etc. DGing is the ONE skill which actually takes some measure of skill. That is why I don't think changing the bind system to provide some lesser used items. Binding primal boots/gaunts temporarily would not only provide some reason to do c6 frozen floors, but also give the boots some use. However, it wouldn't significantly speed things up, or make things "easier" really.

 

Another idea: I'd give up my primal plate to try out a blood necklace, if I could get primal plate back and swap out BN. That is the whole idea of a "bind bank". I'd use BN on certain floors, plate on others, etc. I could switch between primal baxe/2h/spear in order to try all.

 

Look at it this way: Most people aren't going to change their current setup to try out a bunch of new things because its not practical. In fact, I'd even be willing to lose my 3rd bind for one floor when switching between items, in order to prevent the "bind bank" from making things too easily.

 

 

And Assasin, C Cat staff>doomcore.

Actually, in runescape, as nothing really takes any skill(relative, may have something to do with boredom/grinding), the hardness of skills is mostly, if not entirely defined by how fast the skills are. Runecrafting, in no way, is a hard to level skill(doesn't take any extraordinary talents), but it is said to be the hardest skill because it takes most time. On the flipside, fletching and cooking are seen as easy skills, just because the xp rate is high. If cooking was 30k xp an hour, it'd be considered hard.

 

That said, dungeoneering is a skill that does take a bit more 'skill' than the others, but at the same time, it is also more fun. The difficulty in training dungeoneering depends largely on two factors- teammates and binds, and we can't just change the balance. It is next to confirmed ~45 dungeoneering will get another bind, so with 4 binds at level 100 and 5 at 120, i think we are set in the number of items we can possibly allow to bring into dungeons. While some binds will forever be more worthwhile than others(mage gloves/boots, for example), having to make this choice also adds difficulty. I can see how swapping one 'normal' bind for a second 'ammo' bind could work(further in the light of the upcoming new bind slot), and i can see allowing the binding of the same tier of the same combat class gloves/boots in one normal slot, but not introducing new binds for these items.

 

As for bind bank, it's a good idea, but it'd need good balancing. I can see it working assuming you have 10 normal bank slots and ~3-4 ammo slots and can only access the bank while you reset your prestige to not allow making dungeons much easier(changing weapons for what specific dungeons you are doing). I think this would keep the difficulty intact while allowing you to bind and use items that are not always the best, but add variety.

 

45 DG? Really? I always had the impression it was going to be 75DG. Just because a quest unlocks something doesn't mean you have the level to use it. Beat this 45 DG quest and you have the ability to buy an extra bind slot or just get one at 75 makes more sense then another one at 45....

 

I still think every floor is ideal. Because that actually lets you coordinate with random teams (which is the majority of dungeoneering)

whereas gear swaps per reset only really benefits perm teams.

 

I still think most of you don't get where i'm coming from. The WHOLE point of the idea is not to benefit ANYONE, but only add variety. This is the most important aspect of any changes that may come to the bind system. If people want more variety, sure, have some, but if the need for variety is actually masking the need for easier dungeoneering, then no thanks. Per reset would keep the difficulty intact as much as possible while allowing you to use and swap rare binds without the fear of losing them. Variety.

 

Also, Obtaurian, which grimys idea do you particularly like that much?

 

Also, another twist to the bind bank would be for it to coexist with your normal bank in the way that the items in your bind bank count toward your bank space- thus you could bank bind alot of items, but it'd also limit your normal bank items, and jagex wouldn't have to worry about this system needing more memory space.

 

You know, I really think 10-20 items per account wouldn't add that much, relatively speaking. Frankly, I'd just love this system because I could try out a celestial staff if I ever saw one without giving up a melee bind.


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I don't see why you think a gear swap at the start of each floor is that game breaking.

You're still restricted to the same # of binds.

You can't switch out your gear once the floor starts.

I simply don't see why you think it actually makes it that much easier.

 

So when i meant benefit, I meant benefit teamwork wise.

1 swap per reset almost completely defeats the purpose of the bind bank promoting team work.

It would only promote teamwork amongst perm teams, which are not a majority.

1 swap at the start of each floor promotes teamwork amongst anybody.

It's not gamebreaking, but it goes against the spirit of the idea of making dungeoneering more varied because the major reason why you like it so much is rather because it would benefit you while training dungeoneering, and this it not a good thing. People like you don't actually want variety in dungeoneering, they want dungeoneering to be easier to them, and i'm against any idea that would accomplish that(for the record, no, swapping items at the start of floors wouldn't make it alot easier, but as you'd be able to adapt your binds to the kinds of floors you are doing, would make dungeoneering easier none the less).

 

That said, it's kind of ironic that you don't like the idea of bind bank with item swapping on reset because, lets face it, this idea is ONLY about adding variety and nothing else. It doesn't speed up dungeons, it doesn't promote teamwork or develop new strategy's for binds, all it does is, and as you so emotionally said was needed for dungeoneering, VARIETY. Why are you against adding variety? Maybe i was right all along, you want efficiency, not variety, and all of the ideas masked as adding variety just deliver both(and there is no reason to not like them in that case).

 

Squab, binded items taking memory space would be a logical opposition by jagex, and if the items took same space as bank spaces, they should be OK with it(and there would be a balance with people wanting to bank bind alot of items).


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It's not gamebreaking, but it goes against the spirit of the idea of making dungeoneering more varied because the major reason why you like it so much is rather because it would benefit you while training dungeoneering, and this it not a good thing. People like you don't actually want variety in dungeoneering, they want dungeoneering to be easier to them, and i'm against any idea that would accomplish that(for the record, no, swapping items at the start of floors wouldn't make it alot easier, but as you'd be able to adapt your binds to the kinds of floors you are doing, would make dungeoneering easier none the less).

 

That said, it's kind of ironic that you don't like the idea of bind bank with item swapping on reset because, lets face it, this idea is ONLY about adding variety and nothing else. It doesn't speed up dungeons, it doesn't promote teamwork or develop new strategy's for binds, all it does is, and as you so emotionally said was needed for dungeoneering, VARIETY. Why are you against adding variety? Maybe i was right all along, you want efficiency, not variety, and all of the ideas masked as adding variety just deliver both(and there is no reason to not like them in that case).

 

Squab, binded items taking memory space would be a logical opposition by jagex, and if the items took same space as bank spaces, they should be OK with it(and there would be a balance with people wanting to bank bind alot of items).

wait, how does it not promote teamwork or develop new strategies for binds?

People have been saying 2 rapier/spears per team and rest 2Hs/baxes is a good combination.

That would actually be implementable with appropriate teamwork.

Whereas right now, it's kinda just a crap shoot.

people could use it to balance out the number of mages/rangers/meleers there are on each team.

 

secondly I never said that variety was the only reason for this update.

I said lack variety was the personal reason I was getting bored of dungeoneering.

Just because I think variety is a good thing for dungeoneering, doesn't mean that everything else other than variety should not be added into dungeoneering.

Like why does improving variety exclude the benefit of improving teamwork as well?

 

but all that is impossible if the binds are changed only once per reset, unless you're in a perm team and all this is prepared beforehand.

the difficulty change from a bind bank reset each floor is very negligible.

The difficulty change was much less than say, the dungeoneering rings update.

Or the summoning level not contributing to in dungeon monster levels update.

Both of which were not planned to be in dungeoneering to begin with.

 

I understand that you don't want to make dungeoneering easier.

But you're really picking at straws right now.


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How would it not make dungeoneering quite a bit easier if you could change binds every floor? You could use rapier, golden brace, blood necklace+ laws for c1s and 2h, ssh, hex and arrows for larges, which would SIGNIFICANTLY increase your speed of doing c1's, which is why i'm against it. Being able to swap binds on reset would allow you to effectively use different rare binds and try them out, which keeps the difficulty intact.

 

Also, i'm all for updates that improve dungeoneering in different ways like adding variety and promote strategy/teamwork, GRANTED that they don't make dungeoneering easier in any way. The current rigidity of the bind system is a major par of what makes dungeoneering even somewhat challenging. If you want to prove that you are looking to improve dungeoneering without making it easier, then please, i haven't yet seen any ideas from you(i think Obtaurian thought the idea of a bind bank was yours, which it definitely wasn't).


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How would it not make dungeoneering quite a bit easier if you could change binds every floor? You could use rapier, golden brace, blood necklace+ laws for c1s and 2h, ssh, hex and arrows for larges, which would SIGNIFICANTLY increase your speed of doing c1's, which is why i'm against it. Being able to swap binds on reset would allow you to effectively use different rare binds and try them out, which keeps the difficulty intact.

 

Also, i'm all for updates that improve dungeoneering in different ways like adding variety and promote strategy/teamwork, GRANTED that they don't make dungeoneering easier in any way. The current rigidity of the bind system is a major par of what makes dungeoneering even somewhat challenging. If you want to prove that you are looking to improve dungeoneering without making it easier, then please, i haven't yet seen any ideas from you(i think Obtaurian thought the idea of a bind bank was yours, which it definitely wasn't).

how would it speed up C1s all that much?

They already only take 1 hour for 1-30.

Even if they made C1s twice as fast, which they wont.

They will only save 30 mins per reset.

And resets take what 6 -16 hours depending on DG lvl?

 

(actually it would save more because it would allow you to C1 to higher floors, and do fewer larges per reset for faster xp overall, but we're seriously talking on the order of a 2.5% increase in overall xp rate if C1s doubled in speed if players still only c1'd 1-29. More if they started C1'ing higher floors in reaction to faster C1s, but they won't because RS players don't like change. They didn't change when quickend dungeon sped C1s from 3 mins to 2 mins per floor. They won't change if it makes C1s go from 2 mins to 1 min per floor)

 

I thought you were against it making Larges easier.

But any, even significant, changes to C1s are negligible in the long run.


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Errm, why were you so huffed up about wanting to bind both laws and arrows, then? definite inconsistency here.

 

Also, it's not about how much this makes something easier rather that it DOES make things easier(larges, too, as your binds don't have to be good for every floor, rather that specific floor), and why i'm against it. You can argue all you want how small or little the change is, but the fact is, there is a difference and it would make it easier, which is not in the spirit of what any of these ideas are about. I like the idea of swap on reset because it next to doesn't make dungeoneering easier(the time some people save by coordinating with a perm team is countered by others testing non-optimal setups) and achieves what it's supposed to do- add variety.


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Errm, why were you so huffed up about wanting to bind both laws and arrows, then? definite inconsistency here.

I don't see the inconsistency.

So speeding up c1's is negligible but he still wants a whole new bind slot to have both hex hunter and be able to GGS in c1's isn't a tad inconsistent? Fast and efficient c1's are a big part of dungeoneering at higher levels.


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Errm, why were you so huffed up about wanting to bind both laws and arrows, then? definite inconsistency here.

I don't see the inconsistency.

So speeding up c1's is negligible but he still wants a whole new bind slot to have both hex hunter and be able to GGS in c1's isn't a tad inconsistent? Fast and efficient c1's are a big part of dungeoneering at higher levels.

 

Not really; saving half of your time on c1's - a very dramatic change - is only equivalent to like shaving 40 seconds off of each dungeon if you're good, or like 20 seconds if you're bad. if you're going for sub-20 dgs on average, i'd agree with you, but that's pretty hard to do consistently without a perm team.


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Not really; saving half of your time on c1's - a very dramatic change - is only equivalent to like shaving 40 seconds off of each dungeon if you're good, or like 20 seconds if you're bad. if you're going for sub-20 dgs on average, i'd agree with you, but that's pretty hard to do consistently without a perm team.

Every little bit counts- 20 seconds per c1 is 13 minutes for c1's, and atleast a day(24h) of dungeoneering going for 120. Also, why the hell did he pitch the idea of wanting laws anyway when he is saying they wouldn't help him much? Fact is, it does help, and this would make dungeoneering easier, whether it is only a little or alot, every little bit counts.

 

Also, a way this system would clearly make larges easier is that you can decide what ammo you bind for specific floors, and you know what are the most frequent bosses on those floors. Thus, when you know there is a good chance the boss is necro, you'd bind arrows, while when there is a good chance the boss is blink, you'd bind box, and this can also be applied to the specific weaknesses of the monsters on different sets of floors.

 

Another reason why i think jagex wouldn't want to implement it for every floor is that it would make things too difficult and you'd have to make an interference pop up every floor where you'd change binds, with every reset, however, it could be dealt with much more cleanly and easily(which is what jagex wants, and we want them not to screw up going over their heads).


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First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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why are just assuming 2x c1 speed?

I made that as an extreme example.

 

Back before celestial surgeboxes,when most ppl had laws, C1s took 3 mins

the only reason 1min was trimmed off was because of quick end.

 

Honestly even if everyone could bind laws, it would only go from like 120 seconds to 100-110 seconds

I claimed 2x c1 speed as an extreme example, to claim that even if it doubled, it wouldnt be significant.


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Another reason why i think jagex wouldn't want to implement it for every floor is that it would make things too difficult and you'd have to make an interference pop up every floor where you'd change binds, with every reset, however, it could be dealt with much more cleanly and easily(which is what jagex wants, and we want them not to screw up going over their heads).

 

I would imagine the system would work like the system in call of duty, which is really pretty convenient.

 

if you aren't familiar with it, at the start of the game basically you can choose from 5 set classes (or more, if you're prestiged - but that's a whole other story).

 

you can design your classes in a separate interface in your spare time.


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why are just assuming 2x c1 speed?

I made that as an extreme example.

 

Back before celestial surgeboxes,when most ppl had laws, C1s took 3 mins

the only reason 1min was trimmed off was because of quick end.

 

Honestly even if everyone could bind laws, it would only go from like 120 seconds to 100-110 seconds

I claimed 2x c1 speed as an extreme example, to claim that even if it doubled, it wouldnt be significant.

You and ancient did that, i assumed, and this is in accordance with your current post that they would make c1's 20 seconds faster.

 

What is significant and what is not is very much debatable, and i wouldn't actually agree with you on this subject. around 24 hours of time saved is a big deal for me.

 

I would imagine the system would work like the system in call of duty, which is really pretty convenient.

 

if you aren't familiar with it, at the start of the game basically you can choose from 5 set classes (or more, if you're prestiged - but that's a whole other story).

 

you can design your classes in a separate interface in your spare time.

That's still alot of work and alot of areas where jagex could screw this up. Keep it simple(like it is right now).


First to 99 Farming on 27. September, 2005.

First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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Errm, why were you so huffed up about wanting to bind both laws and arrows, then? definite inconsistency here.

I don't see the inconsistency.

So speeding up c1's is negligible but he still wants a whole new bind slot to have both hex hunter and be able to GGS in c1's isn't a tad inconsistent? Fast and efficient c1's are a big part of dungeoneering at higher levels.

I thought the point was supposed to be that it wasn't about speed, it was about variety or versatility or somesuch something other than speed. :mellow:

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Errm, why were you so huffed up about wanting to bind both laws and arrows, then? definite inconsistency here.

I don't see the inconsistency.

So speeding up c1's is negligible but he still wants a whole new bind slot to have both hex hunter and be able to GGS in c1's isn't a tad inconsistent? Fast and efficient c1's are a big part of dungeoneering at higher levels.

lol wrong. Quite wrong. C1s take me 45 minutes for every 23 large floors I do. Only 2 people need laws. Hell' I've duoed c1s WITHOUT LAWS for either of us and it took us an hour. The time to do c1s is a very small amount of time comparatively.

 

I'd like to try out primal long, baxe, and spear, but since its such a PITA to get back prom 2h I probably won't. Thats the thing.


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