The Bind System

[jettrider]

Once I get 99 mage I'll be binding a celestial staff over my plate, but even having those items won't make dungeons that much faster. Before rings and ggs were added, dungeons were still being completed at around 30 minutes, and now even with all those improvements the average only increased to 25 minutes.

I think the number of binds is fine as it is.

Unless the new bind were restricted to a rather useless item such as gloves/boots/pickaxes/toolkits/etc

I agree it'd be pretty game breaking.

 

But my problem with the bind system is how it restricts you to certain jobs.

If bind arrows/celestial box, you're kinda screwed out of laws for c1s.

If you bind a hex, you're screwed out of some armor if you want to key.

 

We definitely shouldn't start a floor with more than 4 binded items of any sort, but I really want to be able to switch up what those 4 items are.

My hexhunter isn't gonna do me any good if I want to key.

 

 

Reading the last bit, got me thinking:

 

What if we were able to bind a few items (Would very with your DG level. I'm thinking maybe 10 max at 120 dg?) that would go into a bank-sort of interface that can only be accessed at the start of a dungeon, or during the WINterface. And from this interface, you can pick up to (your max bind for your level) items to bring into the next dungeon.

 

So, while you wouldn't have your 2H, Hexhunter, primal plate, SSH, and blood neck all at the same time making you OP in a dungeon, you can choose what items you want to bring with you into your next dungeon.

 

I can see how frustrating debating between binds can be. And going level 50 - 100 with only two bind seems... Cruel.

 

I'm glad I went 50-100 without armor. It made me better at dungeoneering in general, learning how to minimize damage, and it made me confident enough to want a Hexhunter bow for the next 80m exp.

 

Anyway, 1-100 is less than 15% of 120 dungeoneering, so you could look at it as a perk to get people to train past 99.

[Youmu]

I would want an extra ammo bind, and 2 bind slots for your best pickaxe/hatchet. Seriously does anyone actually bind primal tools?

 

As far as equipment binds go, they're fine for me. Maybe insert an extra here and there.

[la la la]

100-120 is awfully dry. And don't get excited about the primal spear - it isn't special. So 100-113 is no different, and you can only look forward to a hex. Once you get one, it gets harder to DG simply because you have all your short term goals.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I don't see why this topic is yet AGAIN up in the air. The current system is more than fine as it is and imposes atleast some challenges. More binds= easier dungeons- no thanks, the skill is easy enough as it is. Keep it simple.

 

Grimy, i don't understand your obsession with having many ammo binds- everyone in this world has to make choices- if you bound HHB, good for you, but you can't have everything, and you are not supposed to have everything. I also don't think jagex ever intended for laws to be used the way they are in c1's.

What? variety is the spice of life.

What's wrong with wanting to be able to swap out my gear regularly, over the hundreds of hours it would take for 120 dg.

 

I mean granted DG is already a very varied skill.

But 110-120 DG is about half the time you'll be spending DGing.

And over that time, you'll only encounter 1 new boss, 1 new drop, and 1 more bind.

I'm with Rocked here. I'm kinda bored.

[xpx]

Grimy, it's your choice not to have varied binds, not jagex-es. If you were to change weapons every reset or something like that, the world would be alot more varied, granted what you actually care about is efficiency, not variety(you'd never bind a primal dagger just for the sake of it). The fact that one set of binds is better than another is just inevitable, having two ammo binds doesn't make it more varied.

[Sir_Squab]

The coolest idea I heard (I think it was on this forum) was to allow "Prestige Binds" that builds last as long as you don't reset your Prestige. Example, every 10 floors you complete on a Prestige run, you get an extra Prestige bind added. At 50 floors, you can have 3 permenant binds because of your skill level and 5 items you can bind. Hit the end of your prestige run and reset then your prestige bound items disappear too.

 

Seems like it'd be balanced, since at the highest floors where you get the cool stuff you'll lose it when you reset your prestige to do low floors. In addition, this gives a great use to all the high level items dropped including gloves and boots.

 

Or people start doing the floors backwards to get the high level drops first o.O

 

What I want is for them to give us a damn toolbox at the start of every Dunge. A DG "bank" to switch up items would be appreciated, but frankly the current bind system works. I mean, a person could say use hexhunter with sag p++ arrows one DG, and the next use a surgebox with a celestial staff. Atm I have 99 mage but I'd never bind a celestial staff because it wouldn't be worth it over my other binds. However, if we could swap out binds I'd definitely like one.

[stonewall337]

I don't see why this topic is yet AGAIN up in the air. The current system is more than fine as it is and imposes atleast some challenges. More binds= easier dungeons- no thanks, the skill is easy enough as it is. Keep it simple.

 

Grimy, i don't understand your obsession with having many ammo binds- everyone in this world has to make choices- if you bound HHB, good for you, but you can't have everything, and you are not supposed to have everything. I also don't think jagex ever intended for laws to be used the way they are in c1's.

 

Because this is general DISCUSSION. Will Jagex make any of these changes? Hell no! But that doesn't mean we can't talk about how it could (or should) have been done better. Yes, I agree, I'm VERY happy with the current system. However, Jagex ONCE AGAIN made numerous items USELESS. t11 gloves, boots, coifs, for instance. Most boss armor drops except for plates/a few weps. Etc. There should be SOME use to them, if not gaining that item forever, perhaps temporarily, or maybe some other reward for "gaining" all the items in a set, but not binding them (Getting all celestial items as your drop from a boss results in some bonus, etc)

 

There are SO many ways that this system could be changed, not to necessarily making DGing easier, as it is quite easy ATM, but to provide something extra to do with certain drops.

 

Look at celestial top. It requires 97 DG to achieve, and yet I've NEVER seen it used for anything. Its just a drop you get, and leave on the floor for others to look at, or try on, or maybe if the boss is dead but the keyer hasn't finished running those last few doors, you alch it for cash, etc.

 

Bottom line: There are many items which are simply USELESS now. The system would have been far better balanced, and more diverse, if there we changes made. And that is what we are talking about.

 

Remember, not every topic on this board is about what is currently in game. We also talk about Jagex's methods of implementation, and how they design these things.

 

As for the use of laws in c1's, despite the fact that I doubt Jagex designed the system for people to even DO c1's, the use of laws IN c1's is an example of emergent gameplay, something which you, XPX, normally stand up for wholeheartedly.

 

 

 

I understand what Rocked and Grimy are saying. That is why my short term goals are actually quite high. (ATM 1m tokens, then 113 dg then 120.) But it would be nice if there were more uses for tokens beside either ring, or xp, or double rewards. If I didn't have a good time DGing with friends now, I probably wouldn't be training it still.

[Naraku893]

We need another ammo bind, or at least an increase on it. Also another bind somewhere in the 80s or 90s wouldnt hurt

[stonewall337]

We need another ammo bind, or at least an increase on it. Also another bind somewhere in the 80s or 90s wouldnt hurt

80's or 90's is too low, nothing lower then 105/110 IMO

[xpx]

The reason why i don't like all these(and yes, all these, we have had alot of discussion about this beforehand and will more than likely have in the future) topics about the binding system is that the system is already fine as it is. Seems a bit hypocritical to tell jagex not to fix what isn't broken(like they've tried oh so many times) and keep suggesting these silly ideas. I understand that there are some people who feel as though the binding system isn't flexible enough or that there aren't too many worthwhile binds, but what most suggestions boil down to(when i say most i rather mean all) is that people want dungeoneering to be easier. Has anyone suggested being able to swap a normal bind for an ammo bind? Oh, NO WAY, you say, but really, as dungeoneering certainly doesn't need to be made easier, why not make suggestions that wouldn't accomplish that , instead accomplishing what you claim to be after, variety. Until you guys start to make sense, this thread isn't really going anywhere.

 

As for emergent gameplay, yes, i am all for it, but i'm still a firm believer of having to make choices. If grimy feels as though binding laws would save him more time then good- chuck that bow down the toilet and bind some laws for faster c1's. If he feels as though having the bow allows him to be a better teammate then good for him- but having to make this choice is what actually adds variety. If he were to be able to bind both, there would be no variety.

 

Also an idea for grimy- you can swap sagit arrows for prom arrows- that way you'll be able to bind laws for c1's and remake prom arrows for larges with not much time lost. How about that for variety.

[stonewall337]

The difference between Jagex fixing what isn't broken and this is quite simple if you think about it. Jagex BREAKS what is fine (Loot pickup). This would be making an already good system better.

[Sir_Kurity]

Once I get 99 mage I'll be binding a celestial staff over my plate, but even having those items won't make dungeons that much faster. Before rings and ggs were added, dungeons were still being completed at around 30 minutes, and now even with all those improvements the average only increased to 25 minutes.

 

You don't think 25 minutes is fast enough?

[xpx]

The difference between Jagex fixing what isn't broken and this is quite simple if you think about it. Jagex BREAKS what is fine (Loot pickup). This would be making an already good system better.

And you are sure they could implement it in that way? I'd also like to hear more realistic suggestions on how dungeoneering wouldn't get easier while giving us more variety, because, really, i haven't seen many, if any at all.

 

The major problem that i see with variety is that even though people like variety, they like efficiency more, and thus variety gets trampled under it. The current system allows for plenty of variety, but because people prefer efficiency, they won't ever consider using anything inferior for the sake of it, or get flamed(by teammembers) for doing so. I also don't agree with the notion that every t11 item should be equally spectacular- not even in normal runescape is every boss drop worth picking up, they are just a bonus for finishing dungeons, something that does get very routine when you nolife dungeoneering all day, but a welcome sight if you don't. All of the t11 items require 99s in their respectful skills, so the majority of players wouldn't be able to wield most of them anyway(if they were to stay, say 3 dungeons beyond).

Once I get 99 mage I'll be binding a celestial staff over my plate, but even having those items won't make dungeons that much faster. Before rings and ggs were added, dungeons were still being completed at around 30 minutes, and now even with all those improvements the average only increased to 25 minutes.

 

You don't think 25 minutes is fast enough?

That's what i'm getting at. If anything, tweak the system to make it harder.

[stonewall337]

Longer floors maybe, with more xp. You DO know how long 104m xp takes, don't you? Because you sure don't seem to.

[xpx]

Oh, i might have missed the quote where jagex said getting 120 will be extremely easy and everyone will be getting it.

 

In all seriousness, 120 dungeoneering isn't a routine goal. It's not supposed to be easy. Nobody is forcing anyone to get it, furthermore as it doesn't have any clear cut advantages. Dungeoneering is really one of the easiest skills to get 104m(on par with cooking, just look at the hiscores), and the fact that the levels go up to 120 doesn't mean it should be any easier. Sure, it will take more time compared to a normal 99, but again, it's not a road everyone can or should be taking, thus the fact that it takes alot of time(and i'm not sure it takes more than 99 rc would) makes sense- afterall, it's an endgame skill.

 

Also, i'm one person who you can not give this ''x skill is hard'' ****. I played rsc. 'Nuff said.

[NukeMarine]

Reading the last bit, got me thinking:

 

What if we were able to bind a few items (Would very with your DG level. I'm thinking maybe 10 max at 120 dg?) that would go into a bank-sort of interface that can only be accessed at the start of a dungeon, or during the WINterface. And from this interface, you can pick up to (your max bind for your level) items to bring into the next dungeon.

 

So, while you wouldn't have your 2H, Hexhunter, primal plate, SSH, and blood neck all at the same time making you OP in a dungeon, you can choose what items you want to bring with you into your next dungeon.

 

I can see how frustrating debating between binds can be. And going level 50 - 100 with only two bind seems... Cruel.

A "DG Bank" you can only access at the very end of each dungeon to switch out bound items? Now that sounds like a winning idea. Let's the teams switch up how they START each dungeon which offers variety and more fun with ZERO unbalancing to the current system.

 

To those that says a system works fine as is, I'm glad Jagex never takes that mindset. Yeah, they upset the apple cart a lot, but you get an ever evolving game.

[stonewall337]

Oh, i might have missed the quote where jagex said getting 120 will be extremely easy and everyone will be getting it.

 

In all seriousness, 120 dungeoneering isn't a routine goal. It's not supposed to be easy. Nobody is forcing anyone to get it, furthermore as it doesn't have any clear cut advantages. Dungeoneering is really one of the easiest skills to get 104m(on par with cooking, just look at the hiscores), and the fact that the levels go up to 120 doesn't mean it should be any easier. Sure, it will take more time compared to a normal 99, but again, it's not a road everyone can or should be taking, thus the fact that it takes alot of time(and i'm not sure it takes more than 99 rc would) makes sense- afterall, it's an endgame skill.

 

Also, i'm one person who you can not give this ''x skill is hard'' ****. I played rsc. 'Nuff said.

 

 

I don't give a [cabbage] if you played RSC, that is actually irrelevant. I'm not saying DG is hard, rather it takes a long time, which if you had read my post you would have seen. The point is not to make the skill easier, but to provide a use to other items. I'd give up my primal plate for a few lower items (boots/gloves/neck)

[xpx]

 

I don't give a [cabbage] if you played RSC, that is actually irrelevant. I'm not saying DG is hard, rather it takes a long time, which if you had read my post you would have seen. The point is not to make the skill easier, but to provide a use to other items. I'd give up my primal plate for a few lower items (boots/gloves/neck)

And there is a huge difference between skills being hard and taking a long time? Most people understand those things the same way. In RSC, every 99 took more time than 120 dungeoneering does now, so it really doesn't take that long. And well, i bet you would take 3 items instead of one. Because it would make dungeoneering easier(you'd do it for efficiency sake, not variety sake). There are more useless items in normal runescape, why don't you care about those? Maxing all other skills takes a long time too.

[Kata_Phfract__the_slayer]

a change should be made to ammo binds as to alow you to have more then 125 at certen levels/depending on dungeion sise.

 

as for "flat out 2 binds" its an efective, although harsh, system.

 

i feal it should be more like the idea of the "bind bank"

 

where you can bind a load of items (aprox 3x now)

but you can only take a set amount in (1, 2, 3, 4 just like how it is) alowing people to change class from say melee to mage without stuffing up there binds big time.

 

 

however a system of a primeary and secondry binds would also be efective.

prineary being like anything thats a:

weapon

armour (legs, shield, chest, helm)

and maybe other stuff.

 

secondry:

amulets

lowwer grade armour (boots, gloves)

cape (if any is ever added to dunge)

posible even a potion or pice of food (disposeible stuff liket that if used up carrys on as when binded, unles you sesificly chouse the "destroy" option)

and if jagex like to anoy us, make this also where you put your ammo binds lol

 

basicly meaning you can bind lesser things like amulets and boots while not restrainng your weapon and armour binds.

 

edit: random pointless thought, upgrade your bind with ring classes. like a bind class or maybe spending enough tokens in a class type (melee, mage etc) will unlock a class spsific bind.

[xpx]

Zamorak, your ideas are all fine and fluffy(and i've heard similar ones for a hundred times) but really, what they all tell me is that dungeoneering should be easier in the sense that you would have more binds to work with. I have yet to hear a realistic idea of how you would add variety to the binding system without making dungeoneering easier(as making it easier shouldn't be your goal anyway). Can anyone do that? Seems like a great system to me.

[Sir_Kurity]

It may go to 120, but you don't need it. You only need enough to get all the chaotics you want/whatever.

[NukeMarine]

Zamorak, your ideas are all fine and fluffy(and i've heard similar ones for a hundred times) but really, what they all tell me is that dungeoneering should be easier in the sense that you would have more binds to work with. I have yet to hear a realistic idea of how you would add variety to the binding system without making dungeoneering easier(as making it easier shouldn't be your goal anyway). Can anyone do that? Seems like a great system to me.

The bind system is good, but it removes any reason for level 11 secondary items such as gloves and boots. There was some effort making these items and putting them as boss drops but nobody looks at them past the boss floor. What he's (Zamorak) asking is a balanced manner to introduce these in a way they can be kept. Offering more binds is not the solution. If Jagex raises the binding number, it won't mean people will bind boots as they'll bind another weapon or armor piece. However, if they introduce a "upper item" (weapon, shield, armor, slayer item) and "lower item" bind (glove, boots, and med helm maybe) so that a level 50 can bind 2 upper and 2 lower items then players have a reason to keep boots and gloves. Yes, it's more bound items but it's more of the minor stuff.

 

Secondly, introduce a "DG Bound Item Box" that can be accessed at the end of a dungeon after a boss. This prevents players from shifting their strengths mid game, yet are not held hostage to one combat type or hybrid. Currently, you can be limited to the team you can participate on. However, at the end of a dungeon during the winter face(say a quicky at level 1) you can shift from Melee to Mage or Range and join another team as another aspect. That's not unbalanced as you're not given more binds to work with in a dungeon, and it's more fun and varied.

 

So yes, the suggestions make things a little easier (bounded gloves and boots), and offer variety for players going for 120 (changing combat settings). Still, it does nothing more than make Dungeoneering more fun and approachable at very little cost to balance. Kudos to whoever thought of both ideas.

[xpx]

Zamorak, your ideas are all fine and fluffy(and i've heard similar ones for a hundred times) but really, what they all tell me is that dungeoneering should be easier in the sense that you would have more binds to work with. I have yet to hear a realistic idea of how you would add variety to the binding system without making dungeoneering easier(as making it easier shouldn't be your goal anyway). Can anyone do that? Seems like a great system to me.

The bind system is good, but it removes any reason for level 11 secondary items such as gloves and boots. There was some effort making these items and putting them as boss drops but nobody looks at them past the boss floor. What he's (Zamorak) asking is a balanced manner to introduce these in a way they can be kept. Offering more binds is not the solution. If Jagex raises the binding number, it won't mean people will bind boots as they'll bind another weapon or armor piece. However, if they introduce a "upper item" (weapon, shield, armor, slayer item) and "lower item" bind (glove, boots, and med helm maybe) so that a level 50 can bind 2 upper and 2 lower items then players have a reason to keep boots and gloves. Yes, it's more bound items but it's more of the minor stuff.

 

Secondly, introduce a "DG Bound Item Box" that can be accessed at the end of a dungeon after a boss. This prevents players from shifting their strengths mid game, yet are not held hostage to one combat type or hybrid. Currently, you can be limited to the team you can participate on. However, at the end of a dungeon during the winter face(say a quicky at level 1) you can shift from Melee to Mage or Range and join another team as another aspect. That's not unbalanced as you're not given more binds to work with in a dungeon, and it's more fun and varied.

 

So yes, the suggestions make things a little easier (bounded gloves and boots), and offer variety for players going for 120 (changing combat settings). Still, it does nothing more than make Dungeoneering more fun and approachable at very little cost to balance. Kudos to whoever thought of both ideas.

The problem is, any idea that would make dungeoneering easier wouldn't fit the bill for that this thread is about- giving more variety. Ofcource you'd use gloves when you'd have more binds, but that's the thing- more binds- which makes the skill easier. I would understand something balanced like giving up binds for a gloves/boots bind or something of that kind, but the last thing you want to do is make it any easier. I can think of a hundred ways of how to make dungeoneering more fun, but most of them would mean getting 120 would become a joke, because, face it, the only hard part is that it takes quite a bit of time.

[Pinata]

Well, I know for a fact Dungeoneering isn't done because, they still haven't concluded the story line, which is supposed to be the final update. I wouldn't see the conclusion being a quest because 120 Dungeoneering shouldn't be a quest requirement.

 

I think to fix binds, having different load outs at the beginning of each dungeon would be great. Stealing Halo Reach idea. Could have # of load outs follow the bind pattern. Making more of the dungeon items more useful. In reality you would only need 3 loadouts

 

Keyer/c1- Hood+Primal Baxe + Prim kite or (prim plate + grab antifire at Beginning) + laws

Occult - Hex + saggi top + hood+ saggi p++ arrows (really only 1-2 people need this class)

Melee - hood + prim 2h + prim plate + surgebox/laws/arrows

 

 

Mage Pures - hood+celestial top+ doomcore + surgebox

[stonewall337]

XPX, time=/=difficulty. No skill is "hard" really. There are time consuming skills, buyable skills "semi-afkable skills" etc. DGing is the ONE skill which actually takes some measure of skill. That is why I don't think changing the bind system to provide some lesser used items. Binding primal boots/gaunts temporarily would not only provide some reason to do c6 frozen floors, but also give the boots some use. However, it wouldn't significantly speed things up, or make things "easier" really.

 

Another idea: I'd give up my primal plate to try out a blood necklace, if I could get primal plate back and swap out BN. That is the whole idea of a "bind bank". I'd use BN on certain floors, plate on others, etc. I could switch between primal baxe/2h/spear in order to try all.

 

Look at it this way: Most people aren't going to change their current setup to try out a bunch of new things because its not practical. In fact, I'd even be willing to lose my 3rd bind for one floor when switching between items, in order to prevent the "bind bank" from making things too easily.

 

 

And Assasin, C Cat staff>doomcore.