Good. We're getting somewhere. They was never a state called Palestine but people did live there.

 

The whole point of the British mandate was to keep the lands in order until it settled, when they would leave and the state of Palestine would have been created. There would have been a state called Palestine had the jewish zionists that were relocated to the british mandate not decided that the lands were now theirs, once the british had been forced to leave.

 

The British illegally ignored 2 articles

 

Article 14 of the Mandate required British to establish a commission to study, define, and determine the rights and claims relating to the different religious communities in Palestine. This provision, which called for the creation of a commission to review the religious status quo between the religious communities, was never created.

 

Article 15 required the mandatory administration to see to it that complete freedom of conscience and the free exercise of all forms of worship were permitted.

 

Article 14 talks about claims of different religions. Aka the Jewish homeland.

If no one is intending to debate then there is no reason to keep responding. Please stay on-topic. I'm pretty sure an individual's debating skills is not what this topic was created for.

The British illegally ignored 2 articles

 

Article 14 of the Mandate required British to establish a commission to study, define, and determine the rights and claims relating to the different religious communities in Palestine. This provision, which called for the creation of a commission to review the religious status quo between the religious communities, was never created.

 

Article 15 required the mandatory administration to see to it that complete freedom of conscience and the free exercise of all forms of worship were permitted.

 

Article 14 talks about claims of different religions. Aka the Jewish homeland.

 

What do you understand by religious status quo? I'm not going to justify what the mandate did or did not, but at the time, the jewish population represented a very small minority, and a claim for the land because of ancestorship from such group is simply ridiculous.

 

Besides, the fact that those two articles were ignored does not justify the change in ownership of the lands and a new power. Israel has broken international laws as well, do you think that's reason enough to start a new state in there?

Edited August 8, 201114 yr by Kimberly
See post #84, removed flame

From the forum rules:

 

1.3 - Flaming, Violence, Harassment & Pointless Vulgarity

 

Heated debates are allowed across the entire forum and we are more lenient when it comes to banter between users in the PvP forums only. However, we always draw the line at personal attacks. ... Debate opinions or challenge ideas, but do not insult the people behind them.

 

Please take this to heart. Although we do grant leniency to Off-Topic when it comes to debating, personal attacks are never okay.

This might get the debate started again. Views and comments on these videos might spark digressions that might see some good debate.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQxhyy9Wpb4&playnext=1&list=PL4DC2EB04ADCDE128

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIOpZv0QFes

Agreed with Hitchens. I share a lot of agreements with Nasrallah. Unfortunately, while Hasan Nasrallah champions resistance to occupation, he also defends and glorifies tools of foreign occupation under different circumstances. He also cannot tell us why he can support the uprising in Tunisia, Egypt, and Bahrain...yet not in Syria. The answer is simple: pure sectarian solidarity. He's a douchebag racist.

Agreed with Hitchens. I share a lot of agreements with Nasrallah. Unfortunately, while Hasan Nasrallah champions resistance to occupation, he also defends and glorifies tools of foreign occupation under different circumstances. He also cannot tell us why he can support the uprising in Tunisia, Egypt, and Bahrain...yet not in Syria. The answer is simple: pure sectarian solidarity. He's a douchebag racist.

Indeed he is a douche, though the real reason he doesn't support Syria is because Hezbollah, Syria and Iran are a very friendly trio. It's also the reason that we cannot realistically intervene in Syria; geopolitically it's untouchable.

 

The three videos basically represent reason (Hitchens) and two extremes from either side (Nasrallah on one, the American public on the other).

Well as an Israeli i agree with Dershowitz, the reason for the terror against Israeli people is Israel itself, if Israel stops the pressure on Palestinians then i'm sure people would look at it from a different perspective.

Well as an Israeli i agree with Dershowitz, the reason for the terror against Israeli people is Israel itself, if Israel stops the pressure on Palestinians then i'm sure people would look at it from a different perspective.

I agree to some extent - I think Israel can certainly improve their situation but it's not all on them. No matter how well they act there's still an obvious and justified resentment on the part of the palestinians.

Well as an Israeli i agree with Dershowitz, the reason for the terror against Israeli people is Israel itself, if Israel stops the pressure on Palestinians then i'm sure people would look at it from a different perspective.

To an extent, this is true. But as Hitchens quite rightly points out, Zionism is an abysmal concept and I think that many people see that.

 

A Jew is entitled to live in Palestine, but not at the expense of anyone else. To try and crowd all the Jews in the world into a 'promised land', land they've stolen from others, and get all the non-Jews out, so that then the Jewish people will be worthy of the return of the Messiah, is a shambles of an ideology and a poor excuse for founding a country. Israeli governments have been forced to make concessions, essentially, because of international pressure.

 

From a logical and rational perspective, it's no different to the Islamic Republic in Iran or the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.

Well as an Israeli i agree with Dershowitz, the reason for the terror against Israeli people is Israel itself, if Israel stops the pressure on Palestinians then i'm sure people would look at it from a different perspective.

To an extent, this is true. But as Hitchens quite rightly points out, Zionism is an abysmal concept and I think that many people see that.

 

A Jew is entitled to live in Palestine, but not at the expense of anyone else. To try and crowd all the Jews in the world into a 'promised land', land they've stolen from others, and get all the non-Jews out, so that then the Jewish people will be worthy of the return of the Messiah, is a shambles of an ideology and a poor excuse for founding a country. Israeli governments have been forced to make concessions, essentially, because of international pressure.

I agree with you, i'm against Zionism, and i actually support Palestinians on their cause, i never called a Palestinian a terrorist unlike some of my friends, and i think it's proper at least to give Palestinians their independence and recognize Palestine as a country not just an authority or a territory.

Well as an Israeli i agree with Dershowitz, the reason for the terror against Israeli people is Israel itself, if Israel stops the pressure on Palestinians then i'm sure people would look at it from a different perspective.

To an extent, this is true. But as Hitchens quite rightly points out, Zionism is an abysmal concept and I think that many people see that.

 

A Jew is entitled to live in Palestine, but not at the expense of anyone else. To try and crowd all the Jews in the world into a 'promised land', land they've stolen from others, and get all the non-Jews out, so that then the Jewish people will be worthy of the return of the Messiah, is a shambles of an ideology and a poor excuse for founding a country. Israeli governments have been forced to make concessions, essentially, because of international pressure.

I agree with you, i'm against Zionism, and i actually support Palestinians on their cause, i never called a Palestinian a terrorist unlike some of my friends, and i think it's proper at least to give Palestinians their independence and recognize Palestine as a country not just an authority or a territory.

Given the fact that you're so reasonable and oppose the Zionist mentality, might I ask why you live in Israel? My guess is that you were born there and that your parents are Zionists.

Well as an Israeli i agree with Dershowitz, the reason for the terror against Israeli people is Israel itself, if Israel stops the pressure on Palestinians then i'm sure people would look at it from a different perspective.

To an extent, this is true. But as Hitchens quite rightly points out, Zionism is an abysmal concept and I think that many people see that.

 

A Jew is entitled to live in Palestine, but not at the expense of anyone else. To try and crowd all the Jews in the world into a 'promised land', land they've stolen from others, and get all the non-Jews out, so that then the Jewish people will be worthy of the return of the Messiah, is a shambles of an ideology and a poor excuse for founding a country. Israeli governments have been forced to make concessions, essentially, because of international pressure.

I agree with you, i'm against Zionism, and i actually support Palestinians on their cause, i never called a Palestinian a terrorist unlike some of my friends, and i think it's proper at least to give Palestinians their independence and recognize Palestine as a country not just an authority or a territory.

Given the fact that you're so reasonable and oppose the Zionist mentality, might I ask why you live in Israel? My guess is that you were born there and that your parents are Zionists.

 

Sorry, I'm new to this topic, but are you saying someone who is a Zionist is automatically unreasonable? Or is it someone that disagrees with you like here.

 

People who criticise Tip.It writers for stating opinion as fact. It's exactly what we're meant to do, regardless of their personal preferences.

...No. It's not. That is in no way what good journalism is.

 

All it seems to me is like you're turning opinions into facts.

 

Sorry, I'm new to this topic, but are you saying someone who is a Zionist is automatically unreasonable? Or is it someone that disagrees with you like here.

 

I don't speak on the behalf of others, but I certainly think so. I am Italian, does that mean I am a Roman and should reclaim my once rich empire?

 

gunna kills the germans , brb.

are you saying someone who is a Zionist is automatically unreasonable? Or is it someone that disagrees with you like here.

 

Yes, I am saying it.

 

Also, I'm not sure it's fair to criticize people who were born there , so long as they're against the experiment themselves. I mean, if I had the choice, I'd be out of America in a second and be in Scandinavia; moving is expensive and difficult, and there are too many barriers in place.

 

In the long run, I'd rather there be no nation states...but that's more my "ideology" than my politics.

 

In the long run, I'd rather there be no nation states...but that's more my "ideology" than my politics.

 

I do think this might solve a lot of problems. However, it's probably not very feasible.

Well as an Israeli i agree with Dershowitz, the reason for the terror against Israeli people is Israel itself, if Israel stops the pressure on Palestinians then i'm sure people would look at it from a different perspective.

To an extent, this is true. But as Hitchens quite rightly points out, Zionism is an abysmal concept and I think that many people see that.

 

A Jew is entitled to live in Palestine, but not at the expense of anyone else. To try and crowd all the Jews in the world into a 'promised land', land they've stolen from others, and get all the non-Jews out, so that then the Jewish people will be worthy of the return of the Messiah, is a shambles of an ideology and a poor excuse for founding a country. Israeli governments have been forced to make concessions, essentially, because of international pressure.

I agree with you, i'm against Zionism, and i actually support Palestinians on their cause, i never called a Palestinian a terrorist unlike some of my friends, and i think it's proper at least to give Palestinians their independence and recognize Palestine as a country not just an authority or a territory.

Given the fact that you're so reasonable and oppose the Zionist mentality, might I ask why you live in Israel? My guess is that you were born there and that your parents are Zionists.

Well i don't have any family or relatives outside Israel except my Grandmother in Ukraine, but i'd rather live here..... my parents aren't Hardcore Zionists but they don't love Palestinians either..

Sorry, I'm new to this topic, but are you saying someone who is a Zionist is automatically unreasonable? Or is it someone that disagrees with you like here.

 

 

Yes, I am. To believe Zionist ideology is to be irrational because it's a very irrational and paltry ideology. If you disagree with my views on Zionism, no that doesn't make you unreasonable, unless you also happen to be a Zionist. I hope that makes sense.

Just because you're not a Zionist, doesn't mean you should leave Israel. You just shouldn't kick people out of it.

Just because you're not a Zionist, doesn't mean you should leave Israel. You just shouldn't kick people out of it.

Absolutely true. If a Jewish person wants to live in Palestine, for whatever reason, fine. But to live in Israel in its current incarnation is support for Zionism because you pay taxes and probably fight on behalf of a fanatical Zionist state. The only difference between Sayyid Qutb and Theodor Herzl is that our countries supported the latter, while the former was executed. Otherwise, both were religious fanatics driven to their conclusions by unfortunate circumstance.

Just because you're not a Zionist, doesn't mean you should leave Israel. You just shouldn't kick people out of it.

Absolutely true. If a Jewish person wants to live in Palestine, for whatever reason, fine. But to live in Israel in its current incarnation is support for Zionism because you pay taxes and probably fight on behalf of a fanatical Zionist state. The only difference between Sayyid Qutb and Theodor Herzl is that our countries supported the latter, while the former was executed. Otherwise, both were religious fanatics driven to their conclusions by unfortunate circumstance.

 

So then everyone should leave until a leader you admit is a little fanatical and probably a little insane decides to randomly see reason and go, "Hey, you know, maybe I should just tone it down a notch".

 

You let me know how that works out. Until then, maybe you can realize that the way you're facing such a situation isn't realistic.

Taxes or not, by the time you've grown enough to understand the situation, you've built your entire life in that country. You can't just leave; that's a huge sacrifice, and considering the percentage of Jews who will be to leave, it won't be effective in any way...

Just because you're not a Zionist, doesn't mean you should leave Israel. You just shouldn't kick people out of it.

Absolutely true. If a Jewish person wants to live in Palestine, for whatever reason, fine. But to live in Israel in its current incarnation is support for Zionism because you pay taxes and probably fight on behalf of a fanatical Zionist state. The only difference between Sayyid Qutb and Theodor Herzl is that our countries supported the latter, while the former was executed. Otherwise, both were religious fanatics driven to their conclusions by unfortunate circumstance.

 

So then everyone should leave until a leader you admit is a little fanatical and probably a little insane decides to randomly see reason and go, "Hey, you know, maybe I should just tone it down a notch".

 

You let me know how that works out. Until then, maybe you can realize that the way you're facing such a situation isn't realistic.

 

I am speaking hypothetically. Furthermore, most people in Israel are Zionists, so of course most wouldn't leave. I am not trying to encourage some sort of mass exodus or temporary evacuation. So long as there is an Israel, it will be Zionist to whatever degree. I just think that people who see reason should have no problem emigrating back to their country of origin - for the most part, the USA.

 

Taxes or not, by the time you've grown enough to understand the situation, you've built your entire life in that country. You can't just leave; that's a huge sacrifice, and considering the percentage of Jews who will be to leave, it won't be effective in any way...

 

By the age of 15, an Israeli child who isn't going to be drawn into fanaticism will've seen reason, I am sure. If they were serious in their opposition to Zionist fanaticism and so on, the intelligent ones would study abroad and find it easy to make a life there. You forget that Israel was founded by millions of Jews who did just get up and go - largely from livelihoods in America and Europe - which is exactly why Christopher Hitchens calls Israel "a state of Jewish farmers on Arab land".

The fact is, people go whereever there's work. There's foreign policy from my own government I don't agree with, I'm not going to suddenly up sticks and leave the precarious livelihood I've built for years, just because I'm idealogically juxtoposed to the machiavellian hand that feeds.

Just because you're not a Zionist, doesn't mean you should leave Israel. You just shouldn't kick people out of it.

Absolutely true. If a Jewish person wants to live in Palestine, for whatever reason, fine. But to live in Israel in its current incarnation is support for Zionism because you pay taxes and probably fight on behalf of a fanatical Zionist state. The only difference between Sayyid Qutb and Theodor Herzl is that our countries supported the latter, while the former was executed. Otherwise, both were religious fanatics driven to their conclusions by unfortunate circumstance.

 

So then everyone should leave until a leader you admit is a little fanatical and probably a little insane decides to randomly see reason and go, "Hey, you know, maybe I should just tone it down a notch".

 

You let me know how that works out. Until then, maybe you can realize that the way you're facing such a situation isn't realistic.

 

I am speaking hypothetically. Furthermore, most people in Israel are Zionists, so of course most wouldn't leave. I am not trying to encourage some sort of mass exodus or temporary evacuation. So long as there is an Israel, it will be Zionist to whatever degree. I just think that people who see reason should have no problem emigrating back to their country of origin - for the most part, the USA.

 

Taxes or not, by the time you've grown enough to understand the situation, you've built your entire life in that country. You can't just leave; that's a huge sacrifice, and considering the percentage of Jews who will be to leave, it won't be effective in any way...

 

By the age of 15, an Israeli child who isn't going to be drawn into fanaticism will've seen reason, I am sure. If they were serious in their opposition to Zionist fanaticism and so on, the intelligent ones would study abroad and find it easy to make a life there. You forget that Israel was founded by millions of Jews who did just get up and go - largely from livelihoods in America and Europe - which is exactly why Christopher Hitchens calls Israel "a state of Jewish farmers on Arab land".

a) Religious belief is stronger than reason.

b) We're talking about millions of immigrants vs. a handful of emigrants. The impact isn't comparable.