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Beliefs, Religion and Faith.


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I would say my beliefs are more like PZ Myers, and I respect him very much. In that respect, there is nothing you could present me -- no evidence -- where I would believe that God or Gods are real. Especially with the recent research concerning multiple universes, Hawking's theories on the early universe, quantum mechanics, the evidence that you CAN "get something from nothing" and that the same object can be in two places at once leads me to believe that there is no need for a God; with no need, why insert one into the picture?

You should watch some of the debates between Hawkings and Fr. Spitzer.

 

Why should I watch a debate between a priest and one of the most influential theoretical physicists on Earth?

[hide]Ph.D. Catholic University of America, 1984-88. Philosophy Summa [bleep] Laude.

Dissertation: A Study of Objectively Real Time. Director: Paul Weiss.

Th.M. Weston School (Cambridge), 1983-84. Theology (Scripture). Summa [bleep] Laude.

Thesis: The Depth Grammar of Pneuma and En Christo in I Cor. 12.

M.Div. Gregorian University (Rome), 1980-83. Theology. Summa [bleep] Laude.

Thesis: Early Christological Hymns.

M.A. St. Louis University, 1976-78. Philosophy. (Research) Magna [bleep] Laude

Thesis: The Metaphysical Proof of Gods Existence in the De Ente Et Essentia of St.

Thomas Aquinas.

B.B.A. Gonzaga University, 1970-74. Public Accounting and Finance Magna [bleep] Laude.

High School Punahou High School (Honolulu, Hawaii), 1970 National Honors Society.[/hide]

I dunno. Forget I said anything.

 

I'd like to hear an atheist's view on faith, on both religious faith and non religious faith.

 

Whilst I personally don't have faith in a deity, I do have an ounce of faith in most of humanity's desires - to create a better world, for the greater good.

 

What about you, Duff?

I'm not an atheist. o.O

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Just thought they'd be interesting for you to watch, that's all. Not guaranteeing they'll convince you. :P

 

I think what Nom said about faith, believing in something you have no evidence for, is interesting, because when I think of evidence, I think of empirical evidence. I remember spending a week in my apologetics class talking about how science and reason can never contradict each other. The analogy was that they're two ropes connected the same boat (truth). It's been a while since then (was high school), so I'm not sure I can do the explanation justice. I have a book that uses copious amounts of reason in its arguments for the existence of God (I ordered it today since my copy is at home; I'll make sure to share some of these said arguments). And if you've ever taken a philosophy class, you'll see that they don't contain fallacies. ;)

 

Though, in this day and age, society seems to be focused on empirical evidence, which makes something like using reason to prove God's existence quite... meaningless to many people?

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Out of curiosity, Duff, do you believe that someone who doesn't believe in God, though is a good person and puts others before themselves deserve to go to heaven, or would be granted access to heaven by god? (Not a testing question, I'm just curious to see some theist's stances on that. I've asked a few people it, but I never got solid answers from them really.)

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I believe it is certainly possible for someone as you described to go to heaven.

 

I alluded to this earlier, but I'll say it again: heaven is being completely engulfed in God's love (semi-redundant, heh). I do not claim to know what happens when we die, but I have a feeling it deals with us facing God (or facing ultimate, eternal happiness, perfection, love), and either accepting Him or rejecting him. Hell is for those who reject God.

 

I think that, even though you may not believe in God when you die, you'll be given a chance to accept Him in the afterlife.

 

I find any religion that believes in the exclusivity of salvation (that it is only for someone of their own religion) to be wrongheaded.

 

EDIT: This is why I like focusing not on these differences in beliefs, but on the mutual belief that we should live good lives. Because if you live a morally good life (which, interestingly enough, is the life which Jesus taught and the life that the Church advises, with a few differences of course), no matter who you're doing it for, God is just and will take it into account. Also, I don't want to forget that God is forgiving. If one spends his life denying God, but lives his/her life for others and this disbelief has no negative effect on how he treats others, God will certain be merciful and give said person the same options as he would give a saint: whether to be with Him, or be without Him.

 

EDIT2: This does not mean I am not for pointing out the flaws in other Christian/religion's beliefs. There are countless Christian denominations (and other religions) whose belief system causes physical harm to others, or insults/is condescending to other people. I will gladly try to set these people right because living a life with beliefs that require you to hate/discriminate/harm/etc others is wrong.

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I thought this video would be worth posting on here.

 

 

I'm not posting the other ones by the author because it focuses on specific beliefs rather than belief in general.

 

I completely agree with what the video creator says; overall logically I cannot believe that a specific religion is the truth, however I completely respect a person's personal views. The only time the problem arises is (the example used in the video) when people cause problems for other people because they don't believe in the specific belief.

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Out of curiosity, Duff, do you believe that someone who doesn't believe in God, though is a good person and puts others before themselves deserve to go to heaven, or would be granted access to heaven by god? (Not a testing question, I'm just curious to see some theist's stances on that. I've asked a few people it, but I never got solid answers from them really.)

It's a Catholic belief that Baptism is absolutely required for salvation. The Church, however, recognizes the baptisms of protestant churches (Baptists, Lutherans, etc.), but not of Reformations (Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter Day Saints, etc.).

 

I would like to believe that if a heaven exists, that God is understanding and allows genuinely good people in, but that's contrary to Catholic belief.

 

Edit: I guess I learned a lot of useless information from 13 years of Catholic school.

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1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

 

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

 

~ From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part II, Section II, Chapter I, Article I.

 

From the same article

 

1257 [...]The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude[...]

 

So baptism is the only sure means of entry into eternal beatitude that we know of. Yet, God is incomprehensible, as is his mercy.

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Do you believe in spiritual baptism or physical?

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Baptism is said to have matter (physical) and form (spiritual). Matter would be the water, the immersion, and pouring it three times. The Form assumes the presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit when the minister says, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." Baptism must be performed by a deacon or priest except in the case of an emergency (a dying child), in which case even Richard Dawkins or Osama Bin Laden (but usually a nurse at a hospital) could "legally" baptize the child.

 

This actually reminds of Matthew 28:19-20 (go and baptize all nations), which explains all the overly preachy people.

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I find baptism utterly ridiculous. It's like forcing someone into a religion. Kids are baptized far too young to know what they're doing. I know it doesn't actually force you, but I still find it a ridiculous imposition. Same thing with circumcision, though that is much more invasive.

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I already discussed how the CDC and WHO studied the health benefits of circumcision in that thread about San Fransisco, but I guess opinion blogs > science (and I won't discuss it further here). Anyway, Baptism doesn't lock you in. You're thinking of Confirmation at 14/15 years old where you choose whether or not you want to become a member of the Church and if you accept your Baptism. I would agree that that age is a horrible choice as my parents made me against my will. 22 would be the ideal age to choose imo. There is "historical" evidence, however, for infant Baptism in the Church. 1 Cor 1:16, Acts 16:15, 16:33, 18:18 say that whole households were baptized. We can safely assume that infants lived in these households. The theological justification is supposedly that it shows that our life is initiated by God, just as our natural life is at birth.

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I already discussed how the CDC and WHO studied the health benefits of circumcision in that thread about San Fransisco, but I guess opinion blogs > science (and I won't discuss it further here). Anyway, Baptism doesn't lock you in. You're thinking of Confirmation at 14/15 years old where you choose whether or not you want to become a member of the Church and if you accept your Baptism. I would agree that that age is a horrible choice as my parents made me against my will. 22 would be the ideal age to choose imo. There is "historical" evidence, however, for infant Baptism in the Church. 1 Cor 1:16, Acts 16:15, 16:33, 18:18 say that whole households were baptized. We can safely assume that infants lived in these households. The theological justification is supposedly that it shows that our life is initiated by God, just as our natural life is at birth.

 

No, I'm thinking of baptism. The idea that one is "accepted" or whatever into a religion without even being aware of the name of said religion, let alone the morals, principles, and beliefs that come with it.

 

Religion should be a personal choice, made with no pressures, at an age where you *understand* what you're doing. IMO.

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It's definitely Confirmation. When you're of age (anywhere from 12-16 based on your diocese), you choose whether you want to fulfill the promises made by your Godparent(s) at Baptism (this could be forced like it was in my case, but it's technically not valid as it was against my free will). Baptism doesn't make you a member of the Church, it supposedly fills you with God's grace. It's not even forced anyway. I haven't been to Church in like 6 years except for my Confirmation, a wedding, and school masses. I'm sure many other OTers were also Baptized and Confirmed, but will still consider themselves atheists on legal documents. You can only be forced into it if your parents literally isolate you from all other beliefs and education until adulthood like you see among Southern Creationists (and seeing as I'm on the internet right now, that's obviously not the case for me).

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It's definitely Confirmation. When you're of age (anywhere from 12-16 based on your diocese), you choose whether you want to fulfill the promises made by your Godparent(s) at Baptism (this could be forced like it was in my case, but it's technically not valid as it was against my free will).

 

This is often forced. It was in my case, as I didn't believe in God at the time I was confirmed, and I told my parents I didn't want to, for that reason. They said I didn't have a choice in the matter.

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To the above discussion on baptism being forced:

 

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

Not only this, as said earlier, baptism is the only sure way we know we can get into heaven (emphasize on 'we know'). They're making salvation possible for you.

 

Also,

1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith.54 But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: "What do you ask of God's Church?" The response is: "Faith!"

This states that baptism is only the beginning, and it must be nurtured in the faith. Your religion is not set in stone if you are baptized because you could easily decide to reject God. This would no doubt follow with a fall from the Church and a discontinuation of the growth of faith in the Church.

-------

Do you believe in spiritual baptism or physical?

 

1257 [...]God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

I believe both. I quoted some Catechism references earlier that seemed to hint that spiritual baptism existed (if we're thinking of the same definition of spiritual baptism). The above statement is comforting, though. If my interpretation is correct, it's saying that God has the power to grant salvation to those not baptized, but that it is indeed, His will that will be done (case by case basis).

 

Do correct me if I'm wrong, Bari, cause I know you know your stuff, and I don't want to be claiming false things.

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sure way we know we can get into heaven

Uh, what?

From what I understand, we were told that to get into Heaven, you must be baptised and live accordingly. There may be other ways (such as what Duff proposed before about God asking you to accept Him at the gates of Heaven) but this is the one way that we were explicitly told.

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No one is guaranteed entrance into heaven. But according to what the Lord says, the Church teaches that the only revealed way one can gain entrance into heaven is through baptism and living accordingly.

 

But like I said earlier, God is not bound by his sacraments, and therefore his final judgement kind of 'trumps' all.

 

EDIT: Also, I wanted to say a bit more on the subject of forced baptism. I can see why people would dislike the idea of baptizing a child who has no knowledge of what is happening. Regardless of if it was what you wanted, you parents did it as an act of love, like they do with most things when we're young and naive.

 

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

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Okay, but nobody is sure that they'll go to heaven. We don't even actually know if heaven or hell exist.

Nice straw man. Part of the reason I've stayed away from the thread thus far....

 

Sure, babies aren't given a choice in baptism. It's the responsibility of a conscientious parent to make the decisions they feel are best for their child..and I don't think baptism has ever killed anyone. Now, circumcsision is a different story, but seriously...I doubt even the most die hard athiest is going to be too upset they had a little bit of water poured on their forehead before they could decide they wanted it.

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is definitely not the same God as the Catholic God.

Saying that, do you believe that your deity is the only deity?

 

As for Nom, I believe the Earth was formed billions of years ago. I'm not a creationist. This doesn't mean the creation stories do not serve a purpose.

What purpose do they serve then in your opinion? They are all about how your God created the world in 7 days, after all.

 

Not only this, as said earlier, baptism is the only sure way we know we can get into heaven (emphasize on 'we know').

Wait, what? Point 1, you said anyone could get into heaven, even if they weren't a Christian. Also your entire point here relies on heaven actually existing. Point 2. That statement carries as much weight as me saying 'the only way you will be reborn after death is if you were dunked underwater as a baby'. I do agree with Obsfucator with the whole being baptized as a baby thing though.

 

I am struggling to see how religion is in your life Duff. You follow all of the morals, but the religion part of it is believing that a deity gave it to us? I follow pretty much identical morals with no deity.

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Okay, but nobody is sure that they'll go to heaven. We don't even actually know if heaven or hell exist.

Nice straw man. Part of the reason I've stayed away from the thread thus far....

 

I didn't intend to use any straw man fallacies, could you point it out for me?

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