High Tier Item Access

[Yoko Kurama]

The point is that highest level gear shouldn't be available to everyone, thus making it challenging to obtain it. This game really needs more challenges(think fire cape when it was first released).

 

It should be available to people whom it is intended for if such people have put a reasonable effort into it (by that I mean level 70 armour is for people with 70's in stats, and level 80 armour is for people with level 80's in stats and so on). That is how RS initially was and it remained that way for most of its existence. Now we have this bizarre trend where skills cannot actually generate wealth for players, and the best gear is restricted to a few parasitic players who stand around merching/staking/gambling. Being a reasonable challenge should not entail being ridiculously hard and requiring hundreds of hours to obtain a few items. It's ridiculous that someone with Maxed Skills, and Maxed Defense can only afford level 70 armour. It's a fundamental contradiction of the game that skills (you know the actual content designed to make you progress in the game) is disconnected from the process of wealth creation.

 

Mod Edit:

Split from The World Wakes thread as a worthy topic of discussion beyond the scope of the original thread. As evidenced in the posts that have already been moved, there are obviously very strong feelings on this subject from some of our members, so please remember to try and keep a level head, taking deap breaths while counting to 10 as needed, so as to prevent the discussion from getting overly heated or personal.

 

~@Randox

Edited March 11, 2013 by Randox
Split Thread

[mlskid]

The point is that highest level gear shouldn't be available to everyone, thus making it challenging to obtain it. This game really needs more challenges(think fire cape when it was first released).

 

It should be available to people whom it is intended for if such people have put a reasonable effort into it (by that I mean level 70 armour is for people with 70's in stats, and level 80 armour is for people with level 80's in stats and so on). That is how RS initially was and it remained that way for most of its existence. Now we have this bizarre trend where skills cannot actually generate wealth for players, and the best gear is restricted to a few parasitic players who stand around merching/staking/gambling. Being a reasonable challenge should not entail being ridiculously hard and requiring hundreds of hours to obtain a few items. It's ridiculous that someone with Maxed Skills, and Maxed Defense can only afford level 70 armour. It's a fundamental contradiction of the game that skills (you know the actual content designed to make you progress in the game) is disconnected from the process of wealth creation.

preach. In all honesty skilling is practically impossible to make money off of compared to pvm. I'm nowhere near maxed but often times i find myself struggling to make cash at all simply because all i've been doing lately has been skilling which either loses money for me, or doesn't profit very well.

[Hedgehog]

Skilling shouldn't make money. Skilling should get you xp. Even if Jagex decided to do something to make skilling profitable, the value of xp would be so high that the profitability would be driven down.

[Yoko Kurama]

Skilling shouldn't make money. Skilling should get you xp. Even if Jagex decided to do something to make skilling profitable, the value of xp would be so high that the profitability would be driven down.

 

That's only because of the era of Skill Capes, Zarfot's obsessive XP era, Bonus Weekends galore, and the 200M trend. The value of XP was never always high, nor was it always stressed that all players should be aiming for 99s and 2496 -- these are all recent developments (in the last 4-5 years) that Jagex started without any forethought.

[chenw]

RS is pretty much the only game I am aware of in which skilling loses you money. Skilling before the 99 capes came into existence also had a chance to make money, albeit not at a high rate

 

For the purpose of 'Progression', it is entirely possible to completely skip skilling save for meeting quest requires in order to get top gear. It takes far longer to do it by skilling.

 

So in essence, the only real practical thing Skilling contributes to a player, right now, is a cape he/she wear on your back that has the same stats as a combat skill cape, albeit different colors and emotes.

[Hedgehog]

Skilling shouldn't make money. Skilling should get you xp. Even if Jagex decided to do something to make skilling profitable, the value of xp would be so high that the profitability would be driven down.

 

That's only because of the era of Skill Capes, Zarfot's obsessive XP era, Bonus Weekends galore, and the 200M trend. The value of XP was never always high, nor was it always stressed that all players should be aiming for 99s and 2496 -- these are all recent developments (in the last 4-5 years) that Jagex started without any forethought.

So?

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a goal.

[muggiwhplar]

What's the point of getting XP in a skill if that XP won't be of any benefit to you besides glamor?

 

I liked it better when goals were influenced by personal desires, not Jagex and groupthink.

[muggiwhplar]

To be more detailed...

 

Seeing my RS friends grind out 99s and capes reminds me of my RL friends who go and find shitty jobs/relationships and then never leave them because they're afraid of the repercussions. They never became any happier when they entered a new job/relationship because they only did so because that's what their friends/parents/society told them it was what they should want. They didn't stop to think of what they themselves actually wanted. They also fail to acknowledge the opportunity cost of pursuing such worthless endeavors.

 

I suspect a lot of comp capers only got the cape because they felt obligated to do so, not because they actually enjoyed obtaining it. If they enjoyed getting those 99s, we wouldn't see so many people whining about how "easy" the game is now. If you enjoyed getting your 99s and if you did it for yourself, not for the validation of your peers, and not because you felt obligated to do so, then it'd be completely irrelevant as to whether or not it's easier now than in the past. Then there's also the irrational belief that something's only worthwhile if it's difficult to achieve, but that's another discussion.

 

 

...but isn't this discussion getting kind off-topic? :P

[Alg]

So?

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a goal.

It does get sort of problematic when it removes the freedom from the game. There's nothing wrong with achieving a goal, but you also shouldn't be penalized for having different goals. It's like that old thing about the Ford Model T: "You can have it in any color, as long as it's black".

[xpx]

The point is that highest level gear shouldn't be available to everyone, thus making it challenging to obtain it. This game really needs more challenges(think fire cape when it was first released).

 

It should be available to people whom it is intended for if such people have put a reasonable effort into it (by that I mean level 70 armour is for people with 70's in stats, and level 80 armour is for people with level 80's in stats and so on). That is how RS initially was and it remained that way for most of its existence. Now we have this bizarre trend where skills cannot actually generate wealth for players, and the best gear is restricted to a few parasitic players who stand around merching/staking/gambling. Being a reasonable challenge should not entail being ridiculously hard and requiring hundreds of hours to obtain a few items. It's ridiculous that someone with Maxed Skills, and Maxed Defense can only afford level 70 armour. It's a fundamental contradiction of the game that skills (you know the actual content designed to make you progress in the game) is disconnected from the process of wealth creation.

I don't agree with any of this at all.

 

Firstly, as the updating progression has always been extremely slow, it's idiotic to think that a certain level should warrant that level armor. Rs has never had that correlation and probably never will- it's always been about effort and wealth, and with reasonable effort highest level armor has always been obtainable for highest level players. Now, i understand that it's frustrating having all skills made super easy and people feeling entitled because they put in a tenth of the effort some oldschool player would have for the same result, but because of it, levels don't actually mean anything nowadays. It's all about knowledge of the game and how effective you are using that knowledge, as well as the effort you put into achieving specific goals.

[Yoko Kurama]

Skilling shouldn't make money. Skilling should get you xp. Even if Jagex decided to do something to make skilling profitable, the value of xp would be so high that the profitability would be driven down.

 

That's only because of the era of Skill Capes, Zarfot's obsessive XP era, Bonus Weekends galore, and the 200M trend. The value of XP was never always high, nor was it always stressed that all players should be aiming for 99s and 2496 -- these are all recent developments (in the last 4-5 years) that Jagex started without any forethought.

So?

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a goal.

 

You act as if before the trends I described that no one had any goals. Goals are often socially defined and set, in Runescape that incentive structure is Jagex. I am criticizing them for setting what I think are wrong and problematic incentives. I am not criticizing the concept of goals, or proposing that we should all not have goals. How goals are set and what consequences they can result in is not something that can merely be dismissed, in certain situations it matters what goals people are aspiring to, and why they are doing so.

[muggiwhplar]

The point is that highest level gear shouldn't be available to everyone, thus making it challenging to obtain it. This game really needs more challenges(think fire cape when it was first released).

 

It should be available to people whom it is intended for if such people have put a reasonable effort into it (by that I mean level 70 armour is for people with 70's in stats, and level 80 armour is for people with level 80's in stats and so on). That is how RS initially was and it remained that way for most of its existence. Now we have this bizarre trend where skills cannot actually generate wealth for players, and the best gear is restricted to a few parasitic players who stand around merching/staking/gambling. Being a reasonable challenge should not entail being ridiculously hard and requiring hundreds of hours to obtain a few items. It's ridiculous that someone with Maxed Skills, and Maxed Defense can only afford level 70 armour. It's a fundamental contradiction of the game that skills (you know the actual content designed to make you progress in the game) is disconnected from the process of wealth creation.

I don't agree with any of this at all.

 

Firstly, as the updating progression has always been extremely slow, it's idiotic to think that a certain level should warrant that level armor. Rs has never had that correlation and probably never will- it's always been about effort and wealth, and with reasonable effort highest level armor has always been obtainable for highest level players. Now, i understand that it's frustrating having all skills made super easy and people feeling entitled because they put in a tenth of the effort some oldschool player would have for the same result, but because of it, levels don't actually mean anything nowadays. It's all about knowledge of the game and how effective you are using that knowledge, as well as the effort you put into achieving specific goals.

 

What do you consider to be the point of RS?

[Alg]

Now, i understand that it's frustrating having all skills made super easy and people feeling entitled because they put in a tenth of the effort some oldschool player would have for the same result

Would it surprise you to learn that you have no [bleep]ing idea what you're talking about? For all your knowledge of the game's mechanics you really don't know what the community is like outside of the little bubble that comprises the 2400+/10 year+ group.

 

You demand content for that group and that group alone, and yet it's everyone else that's entitled.

[Yoko Kurama]

I don't agree with any of this at all.

 

Firstly, as the updating progression has always been extremely slow, it's idiotic to think that a certain level should warrant that level armor.

 

It certainly should be. Runescape was initially designed so that as you progressed you'd unlock suitable content for your level. It was never intended that the only way to make decent money and unlock content for your level bracket would be to actually do activities that were incidental (merchanting, staking, gambling). There's a reason why those activities were never officially promoted as something that's expected of you to do. The Official RS guides by Jagex, after all, make little to no mention of such activities (aside from Staking, and even that is discouraged).

 

 

Rs has never had that correlation and probably never will- it's always been about effort and wealth, and with reasonable effort highest level armor has always been obtainable for highest level players.

 

This is simply false empirically and historically. RS has indeed had times such as these. Back in RSC and early RS2 after Bluerose's reign ended, it was indeed possible for level 40's and 50s to be walking around in Rune armour (I was one of them). That was the best armour in the game and it was easily accessible for all of its intended audiences. Dragon Weapons were immediately accessible to people who could wield them, provided they put a little bit of effort in (as they all had fixed shop prices, as did Rune armour).

 

Then Dragon armour came out and it was marginally better than Rune (individual pieces were +4 over their Rune counterparts). They were expensive to be sure, so they functioned as a novelty item for higher levels but there was not much need for them. When Barrows and Whips came out; they were initially somewhat expensive but they reached a floor of sorts and with a decent effort it was extremely possible for level 80's to get them with some hard work (Again, I was one of those people who had a Whip and Guthans while being a level 85ish character). The same was the case for when God Wars came out. It was extremely expensive initially but God Wars was accessible to level 90's in teams and it was quite easy to make lots of money and afford the pieces.

 

It was not until the Spirit Shields came out that the first super expensive, out-of-reach item was made.

[Hedgehog]

I don't see why this is such an issue. Elite items provide a challenge for those who wish for a challenge, and those who cannot be bothered miss out on like a .00001% dps boost. It's not like any of the elite items have ever been that amazing or useful; hell, they've been worse than the alternatives plenty of times too.

[muggiwhplar]

It's bad when the elite items are OP as [bleep]. A guy in full Nex gear + Divine was pretty much unstoppable by anyone with "normal" gear prior to EOC.

 

Better to keep the elite items like dragon equipment used to be or like 3rd age. Let the rich have their fun collecting it, but don't make it infinitely better than its alternatives.

[xpx]

It still amazes me to see people moan about expensive items and see them say that they are only accessible to people using ''illegitimate'' ways of moneymaking. Guess what, it's just an idiotic excuse to say that you aren't willing to put your back into it and work for something you claim is desirable.

 

As for specific level content being usable at that level, you can show me all the rare examples you wish, but lets be honest, as they were designed and after release, none of the high tier equipment is designed to be used by the tier that they require, and for the most part, are only used by the higher echelon of players. The only way this can be ''fixed'' is by having everything sold in shops, which already redundant content usually will be.

 

Many of these high tier items we are talking about offer truly negligible boosts already, and are, realistically, useful only for content that is required for ''legitimately'' obtaining them in the first place. These gloves, for example, are little more than cosmetic piece of content.

 

Also, comparing this to real life(which i know is a really stupid thing to do), i don't think anyone who is able to pass their driving test should easily be able to ''obtain'' a ferrari. Sure, there might be rare examples, but as a whole, you'd have to work hard for it, and it wouldn't really offer you much of a ''boost'' over a BMW or even public transport.

[Yoko Kurama]

It still amazes me to see people moan about expensive items and see them say that they are only accessible to people using ''illegitimate'' ways of moneymaking. Guess what, it's just an idiotic excuse to say that you aren't willing to put your back into it and work for something you claim is desirable.

 

Do not make assumptions which you cannot possibly hope to defend. If you must know, I have done merchanting in my day, I have also done staking, and I have also done boss hunting, making several billions from these activities. However, unlike you, I realize that the game should have a rational and reasonable form; so even though I could make hundreds of millions if I chose to do so, I still don't think that's how the game should be. The game should not revolve around the whims and abilities of a few parasitic and detached players. I have been more than willing to put time into such things in the past, I simply think that RS should not be this way.

 

As for specific level content being usable at that level, you can show me all the rare examples you wish, but lets be honest, as they were designed and after release, none of the high tier equipment is designed to be used by the tier that they require, and for the most part, are only used by the higher echelon of players.

 

All the examples that I cited prove the exact opposite. If you were honest, you'd at least acknowledge it, and accept it, or at least try to challenge them in a more substantive way than mere hand-waiving. To add on this, quite literally, all the cases that I cited only became more accessible with time and there substantial periods of time (months or years) where the best gear in the game was accessibly to all. That's certainly different from the top gear being only available to the a small section of the most elite players.

 

 

The only way this can be ''fixed'' is by having everything sold in shops, which already redundant content usually will be.

 

I, and most players, in fact would much rather prefer shops than the tyranny of wealthy parasites. In shops, weapons/armours could indeed be sold for tens of millions (but be more reasonably priced than things currently are) and also serve a deflationary role.

 

Many of these high tier items we are talking about offer truly negligible boosts already, and are, realistically, useful only for content that is required for ''legitimately'' obtaining them in the first place. These gloves, for example, are little more than cosmetic piece of content.

 

This is hardly true. Drygores and Virtus Wand for instance offer a substantial boost. Drygores are so powerful in fact, that they completely distort the combat triangle and obliterate anything and everything regardless of their specific weaknesses. Because of Jagex's idiotic insistence, most wands, save for Virtus, are utterly useless.

[Birdd]

I'm confused by the objective of the above conversation. The drop rate is what it is, and the bonuses are basically neglible. If you want the gloves, suck it up and grind or suck it up and pay for neglible bonuses. What's the big deal about a rare drop rate? The monsters are easy enough to camp and they're not a boss, the rate should be reasonably low. I believe I saw on RSOF that the mod who designed them said they are 20% more rare than glacor boots, that's not insanely high. Stop complaining about poor luck, it's always been part of the game.

 

Also, I earned all my bank (~1.5B) through monster hunting. So people who say only gamblers, stakers, etc can buy stuff is just not true. Sure skilling isn't great money, but it hasn't been for years. Why the sudden uproar?

 

And at above's example's..

By the time GWD came out many people were way beyond 70 stats, and the ones who were killing the bosses were above 70 stats crowding out the 70 statters (I know because I was one of them.) And the problem is that a large population is maxed out, yet we don't have scaled gear to go with it. If we did, then we would be paying alot for that and tier 80 gear would be accessible to 80's. The problem comes from tier 80 being top tier, they need to finish the tiers out.

[Yoko Kurama]

The conversation has moved far beyond the scope of the latest T85 gloves into a far more general discussion about things far more important than gloves.

[Birdd]

I agree. My point was I don't have a problem with top-tier being ridiculous expensive, the real problem lies in the fact that top-tier is at tier 80, making it inaccessible to level 80's. But I think this has been the case since GWD. Barrows wasn't that way because they're weren't as many maxed players and barrows has a high drop rate/low level's can do them and higher levels being there can't prevent lower levels from being there.

 

Bandos was not available to me at level 70, 50m for the set was alot back then. I settled with rune, or barrows if I had a cash surplus at the time.

 

Nex gear was not available to me upon it's release, nor anytime until recently, years after it's release.

[Randox]

My issue with the game as it is now is that the the non combat skills have become second class. If your not boss fighting, merchanting, or gambling hosting, then your poor. End of story. This thread has reminded me of a time long gone when the income disparity was not so bad, when hunter was more money than many combat activities. The fighters have always been wealthy, but for a long time there was also a dependancy on the skillers that doesn't seem to exist.

 

In most games, the pursuit of experience also gains you wealth. It is actually quite odd to have a game where you end up in a position to pay through the nose to effectively train, when the status quo is more broadly that you would just be getting less rich.

 

I am also going to lay some of the blame at the way weapons and armour keep getting released to satisfy a need for progressively better armour and weapons (a need that didn't exist for years), coupled with the departure from putting these items in stores (I just realized I haven't visited a shop more than a handful of times in the past two years) which served to keep the non candy items at price ceilings. I certainly wouldn't mind a return to that system, where it was the candy items, more advanced or prettier veries on the higher teir items, that were valuble. The moster hunters still had their wealth, and the wealthy still had their elite items. But income disparity was not always a barrier to higher levels of gameplay.

 

 

The game does sort of remind me of EVE now, which is wealth driven by design. I still can't believe someone made a space combat game where space fights are entirely secondary and it turned out massively successful. Capitalisim - The Game :lol:

[xpx]

Yoko, most of what you talk about is all well and good, but it's all in theory. The exact reason we need these high-priced novelty items is that theory and reality just don't match up. Ofcouce it would have been nice if every tier equipment was released together(kind of like dungeoneering). Ofcource it would be nice if the experience rates for skills would have stayed the same throughout the years. Ofcource it would be nice if combat wasn't the only so-called legitimate way to make alot of money. But the fact of the matter is, this game would have died a long time ago if all that were true, and i'm sure jagex realized that a long time ago, too. Thus, today, we have an imperfect system where requirements mean nothing and combat is the only real skill in the game. And we need rare equipment as a result.

 

Yes, there are examples of equipment easily available for their respective levels, but, for the most part they involve quests or have been second rate for a long time. Most if not all high tier combat drops have not matched their requirements to wear, and i'm sure this trend will continue. It's true that some of these items have been a significant upgrade, but considering that the best way to obtain them is to fight that respective boss, it is fairly balanced.

[kamil1210]

few parasitic players who stand around merching/staking/gambling

 

Combat skills -> PVM - > skills generate money

Also you can get money from traning other skills but not whith maximum xp/h

 

Is nex armour too hard to get for 80 lvl players? No. just find gropu of players and kill her. You don't need to buy all stuff. DIY!

[tintin113]

Yoko, most of what you talk about is all well and good, but it's all in theory. The exact reason we need these high-priced novelty items is that theory and reality just don't match up.

...

It's true that some of these items have been a significant upgrade, but considering that the best way to obtain them is to fight that respective boss, it is fairly balanced.

 

Firstly, tiered combat equipment shouldn't be, and at high levels is simply not 'novelty'. It is progression, and that progression is made difficult by the necessity of vast wealth rather than skills. If spirit shields and nex armour were novelty items, then they sure as hell messed up somewhere because as someone mentioned earlier, the combination of the two, that would certainly cost over a bil, made you nigh-on invincible.

 

Secondly, the bosses that drop this mid-high level armour (remembering that level 80 is only ~1/6 the xp of 99,) require maxed/90+ stats and high-level gear to kill effectively, this does not make it balanced, it means you have to go far past the required level to unlock the means to access something that you have already technically met the requirements for.

 

 

To, go back to the skilling discussion earlier, RS has certainly become a game based, by vast majority, in combat, and the gaining of wealth both by and for combat in order to fund ostentatious outfits and high-rate skilling xp, and frankly I don't see how Jagex can recover it from its current state, (if they even realise how bad it is.)