.

[Giordano]

the main problem with you Americans is that you have no federal laws

Hey, someone gets it!

[Z_Berenice]

Guns are such a lethal and dangerous items that I believe they should be completely controlled by the government.

In honesty, if it was mine to do, I would ban all firearms altogether from civilian use. Seriously. I cannot imagine a situation where I would need one. There are always other ways.

 

Was I forced to use them at some point? Yes, 3 times, otherwise it would've been the police calling the mortuary to send some bags.

 

Please, enlight us what you would do if any of these happened to you:

 

1. While I was taking care of my niece, some guy decided it was a good idea to charge around the park with a machete. My niece ran in my direction and he started chasing her, I was sitting on a bench, I yelled at the guy to back up to no avail, shot him in the leg... you can figure out the rest.

 

2. 2 burglars managed to break in my living room, one carrying a knife and the other carrying a gun... ksg saved the day (well night). They didn't die as I shot between them to "spray" them, the guy with the gun lost an eye tho. Funny thing is, I actually worked their case as a defendant and they got out of jail in 18 months, helped them get a job, etc... No point on letting yet another thief rot in jail.

 

3. This one was far more tragic sadly... One of my best friends had a stalker, she knows I carry so I didn't have any issue hanging out with her more often. One day while I was leaving her house, her stalker was waiting for me with a bat, hidden on a bush in her front yard; I didn't see him until he swinged at me, managed to avoid the hit, kept trying to get distance but he kept rushing towards me, at one point he swinged just milimeters away from my face, sadly, I had to put 2 on his chest... The police arrived like 30 seconds later, turns out the stalker told one of his friends he was planning on waiting for me at my friends house, kill me with the bat, and then kill my friend, all in a joking matter but his friend still called the cops. Her neighbor saw it all, I just had my gun taken for a week for some paper work and that was about it... Went to his funeral, her mother didn't blame me since she knew this was bound to happen at some point...

[Estonian dude]

You have had seriously way too much problems. But as for the cases 1 and 3, hand-to-hand fight would have been enough to at least put up some resistance until some sort of help arrives.

Killing a grown resisting man with a machete or a baseball bat takes a LOT of skill or brute force. For the second case, I would have tried nothing and just let them get the stuff and leave, but atleast in here police is so capable that if I can provide accurate testimonies about their appearance and they have left any traces behind, they would be caught. It would cause me inconvenience, but on the other hand if there were less guns around overall there would be a much lesser chance of the robbers having guns.

Overall the chances of an armed robbery are practically nonexistant in my country. We are a more or less welfare state and as such armed.robberies are very rare and such cases are always solved almost immediately.

[Ember]

.

[Ember]

.

[Estonian dude]

Why have the state if you don't trust it?

 

And the way I see it after long thinking is that there is a critical mass of circulating guns. When it is passed, everyone wants a gun and consequences aren't far behind. Situation is like that in the US. Since the felon has a gun, I need one too.

 

When the critical mass of firearms has not been reached, than people are more in my point of thought. If the felon doesn't have a gun, why should I have one. For the felon to acquire one from me? No, I'd rather the people qualified to deal with criminals deal with them. And the felon himself doesn't need a gun for protection either. Everybody is happy, nobody gets shot.

[Omar]

Guns are such a lethal and dangerous items that I believe they should be completely controlled by the government.

In honesty, if it was mine to do, I would ban all firearms altogether from civilian use. Seriously. I cannot imagine a situation where I would need one. There are always other ways. Only allowed would be certified hunting and sporting weapons. And they would have special requirements for storage and possession. Complete background checks to anyone who has access to them.

But I know I will be in a minority here. And I know I am somewhat radical in my views and there is nothing you can say to change my mind.

a) You want a group of people who have guns to stop you from using guns. Just letting you know about this little quirk.

 

b) Suppose that a serial killer/burglar is known to invade homes at night in your town (despite the existence of trustworthy locks). There is a gun shop in town, and you want to purchase one, but in an effort to stop the criminal, the mayor has decided to shut it down. As a result, your property is damaged, your body also, maybe your life. Has the mayor done anything wrong, considering he used force (the threat of jailing anyone who buys or sells guns) to stop you from defending yourself? How does this compare to taking a gun out of your hands when the burglar is already in your home? Are these scenarios any different if the gun shop is closed because a group of anti-gun activists with pitchforks closed the shop or took your gun away?

 

c) Why would we want the state if we don't trust it? You know the whole point of democracy is that leaders aren't trusted and that's the people gets to pick, right?... But anyway, I trust neither the state nor democracy, so you can deduce whether I want there to be a state or not; this brings up a whole bunch of other issues though so let's keep it to guns.

 

d) Your point about critical mass makes a certain amount of sense. Indeed gun ownership is a collective action problem in that no law-abiding citizen wants guns to be around, but for his protection he has to get some, which means everyone is worse off in the long run. The problem is felons get guns regardless of whether they are legal or not, that's why law-abiding citizens need protection; felons don't get guns because law-abiding citizens want them; they get them because it gives them an advantage; it's not because your neighbour has a gun that you want one; it's because some ratchet-ass dude is going around stealing pocket change from small businesses.

 

e) You place excessive trust in a state's ability to regulate the trade of weapons amongst criminals, just like people placed excessive trust in its ability to regulate alcohol during prohibition in Canada and the US, and just like people still place excessive trust in its ability to regulate the drug trade just about everywhere (which, by the way, is one of the major causes of gun crime in the US--get rid of those regulations and you largely solve it).

 

f) You're right, gun crime is a big problem in the US. It's been steadily declining since about 1990 though. This has nothing to do with regulations (Steve Levitt argues in Freakonomics it's because of Roe v. Wade; make of that what you will). School shootings are actually a tiny fraction of gun homicides--our money would be better spent protecting people from being struck by lightning, considering that happens three times as often.

 

[Edit] A grown man is swinging at a kid with a machete and all you can think of doing is call the cops? Suppose the cops show up within 3 minutes. You think that's not enough time to significantly hurt a little girl with a machete? Do they ride clouds to school and poop rainbows where you come from?

[Ember]

.

[nine naked men]

Guns are such a lethal and dangerous items that I believe they should be completely controlled by the government.

In honesty, if it was mine to do, I would ban all firearms altogether from civilian use. Seriously. I cannot imagine a situation where I would need one. There are always other ways.

 

Was I forced to use them at some point? Yes, 3 times, otherwise it would've been the police calling the mortuary to send some bags.

 

Please, enlight us what you would do if any of these happened to you:

 

1. While I was taking care of my niece, some guy decided it was a good idea to charge around the park with a machete. My niece ran in my direction and he started chasing her, I was sitting on a bench, I yelled at the guy to back up to no avail, shot him in the leg... you can figure out the rest.

 

2. 2 burglars managed to break in my living room, one carrying a knife and the other carrying a gun... ksg saved the day (well night). They didn't die as I shot between them to "spray" them, the guy with the gun lost an eye tho. Funny thing is, I actually worked their case as a defendant and they got out of jail in 18 months, helped them get a job, etc... No point on letting yet another thief rot in jail.

 

3. This one was far more tragic sadly... One of my best friends had a stalker, she knows I carry so I didn't have any issue hanging out with her more often. One day while I was leaving her house, her stalker was waiting for me with a bat, hidden on a bush in her front yard; I didn't see him until he swinged at me, managed to avoid the hit, kept trying to get distance but he kept rushing towards me, at one point he swinged just milimeters away from my face, sadly, I had to put 2 on his chest... The police arrived like 30 seconds later, turns out the stalker told one of his friends he was planning on waiting for me at my friends house, kill me with the bat, and then kill my friend, all in a joking matter but his friend still called the cops. Her neighbor saw it all, I just had my gun taken for a week for some paper work and that was about it... Went to his funeral, her mother didn't blame me since she knew this was bound to happen at some point...

 

i know you didn't ask me but i feel i should throw in my 2 censt.

 

i think instead of using guns to kill and murder people, we should instead make approximations of the sounds that guns could make, scaring and confusing any would be attackers without doing any permanent damage. i've thought about this for awhile, and can't really come up with any downside. i think the biggest advantage would be that you could make them think you have a really bigf gun (a k a a ROCKET LAUNCHER) and that will really scare them. though i guess maybe bad guys could adopt this tactic too and maybe start using gun noises that don't exist? (laser guns, etc)

 

but you know what i say: the only way to stop a bad person making gun noises w/his mouth is with a good person making gun noises w/his mouth.

[Z_Berenice]

You have had seriously way too much problems. But as for the cases 1 and 3, hand-to-hand fight would have been enough to at least put up some resistance until some sort of help arrives.

Killing a grown resisting man with a machete or a baseball bat takes a LOT of skill or brute force. For the second case, I would have tried nothing and just let them get the stuff and leave, but atleast in here police is so capable that if I can provide accurate testimonies about their appearance and they have left any traces behind, they would be caught. It would cause me inconvenience, but on the other hand if there were less guns around overall there would be a much lesser chance of the robbers having guns.

Overall the chances of an armed robbery are practically nonexistant in my country. We are a more or less welfare state and as such armed.robberies are very rare and such cases are always solved almost immediately.

So you expect me to become the world's greatest fighter and magically appear behind the guy who was chasing my niece with a machete? To wait and see what 2 armed burglars did before taking action? To let someone who already said had the intention of killing not just me, but also my friend swing his bat nicely while I ignore him? No sir, YOU have way too much problems.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Has any of that actually happened in your life, though?

[Z_Berenice]

Has any of that actually happened in your life, though?

Was I forced to use them at some point? Yes, 3 times, otherwise it would've been the police calling the mortuary to send some bags.

[Ginger_Warrior]

I'm sorry to hear that. To be honest, I tl;dr'd that post.

 

All my anecdotal evidence is that, while I live in a country where public ownership of firearms is essentially banned, and grew up in a heavily urbanised residential estate on the outskirts of the city centre, I have to yet to come across any time in my 23 years of living where I've required one, or where I'd even have found one useful.

[Z_Berenice]

I'm sorry to hear that. To be honest, I tl;dr'd that post.

 

All my anecdotal evidence is that, while I live in a country where public ownership of firearms is essentially banned, and grew up in a heavily urbanised residential estate on the outskirts of the city centre, I have to yet to come across any time in my 23 years of living where I've required one, or where I'd even have found one useful.

Then you are a lucky one. I know gun owners who never used their guns on situations like that, and they aren't looking for them either, however, they also think that it's better to have something and don't need it, than needing something and don't have it... I wasn't really sure about the carry permit first, but I don't regret it at all today, turns out 2 of those situations had to be while I was out of my own house... Gives you something to think, I could've been just another guy who died becaue of some maniac killing spree. And don't get me wrong, I often think about what would've happen if I shot that guy in the arm or in the leg instead of his chest, but then again, a situation like that gives you no time to think, I was thaught to shoot to disable rather than kill, and I felt horrible until I heard the guy's intention was to kill me and my friend in first place...

 

Anyone who comes up with these "alternate solutions" either lives in an imaginary world or has never experienced a situation where the life of someone or their own was in danger, those are the people I pray are never allowed a gun and god forbid I ever have to defend one of them from their own stupidity... I could tell you so many stories about anti-gun people in life-threatening situations that they only made worse...

[Range_This11]

I had a gun pulled on me, cocked, and pointed in my face once. The guy robbed me of nothing really, but even if I had a gun it would have done absolutely no good. As soon as I reached for anything besides my wallet, he would have shot me. It becomes a who can pull out their gun faster situation. I have a feeling a lot of the people on this thread that are so fervent about guns have never been in a situation like this. It's all a lot of role-playing inside their heads and posturing.

[Z_Berenice]

I had a gun pulled on me, cocked, and pointed in my face once. The guy robbed me of nothing really, but even if I had a gun it would have done absolutely no good. As soon as I reached for anything besides my wallet, he would have shot me. It becomes a who can pull out their gun faster situation. I have a feeling a lot of the people on this thread that are so fervent about guns have never been in a situation like this. It's all a lot of role-playing inside their heads and posturing.

Wait till he starts leaving and point the gun at him, call the police, hold him while the police arrives, you get your stuff back and he gets his time in jail. Like you just said, it's a matter of who pulls the gun on who without retaliation... that's actually one of the points (and recommendations) about concealed carry, but I guess you didn't know that.

[Range_This11]

Yeah, see it all works out great and logical in theory. The dude could have easily turned around and shot even if I had a bead and the drop on him.

 

No one will ever change my view on guns that they are nothing more than an extension of the ego. I'm a non-violent person.

[Z_Berenice]

Yeah, see it all works out great and logical in theory. The dude could have easily turned around and shot even if I had a bead and the drop on him.

 

No one will ever change my view on guns that they are nothing more than an extension of the ego. I'm a non-violent person.

Oh don't get me wrong, you can just let him go and let yet another thief run free, be everyone's guest. And you're right, he could've just turned back... but then again, if you were raised on a gun-friendly enviorement you would've know what to do when that happens... So I guess in your case, it's ok to get robbed and god forbid you're ever allowed a gun, but you already do a great job avoiding that so that's a good thing (better than having the robber not only stealing your cash/cellphone/whatever, but also getting your gun robbed and yourself killed, see? everyone wins).

[Ginger_Warrior]

You're not the police. What makes you think that he's somehow done some public disservice by deliberately allowing himself to get robbed at gunpoint in order to remove himself from danger?

 

Essentially, you've just proven his point about "ego".

 

The second half of that post is purely speculative (particularly the bit about being killed) and should be totally disregarded in the interests of a sensible discussion.

[Z_Berenice]

You're not the police. What makes you think that you've somehow done some public disservice by deliberately removing yourself from danger by letting him rob you?

 

Essentially, you've just proven his point about "ego".

Figured I could bring all the points and consequences on the matter, since that's basically the whole point of being anti-gun. So suddenly I'm not allowed to do the same? And I was actually backing his statements on why he shouldn't have a gun, he was obviously raised on a different enviorement than mine, hell, it would be extremely idiotic of him to play the hero if he doesn't have a gun, or what's worse, if he had one but didn't know what to do if the robber turned back on him, as he said. I'm not mocking him or trying to rise my ego, I'm just saying some people are allowed to have guns for x reason and some others aren't for y reason. That doesn't make any "superior" to the other, if I saw him getting robbed on the streets, I couldn't care less if he was anti-gun or pro-gun, the moment his life is in danger, it becomes the business of whoever responsible armed citizen is the closest to him, and he's entiled to his opinion after that.

[nine naked men]

You're not the police. What makes you think that you've somehow done some public disservice by deliberately removing yourself from danger by letting him rob you?

 

Essentially, you've just proven his point about "ego".

Figured I could bring all the points and consequences on the matter, since that's basically the whole point of being anti-gun. So suddenly I'm not allowed to do the same? And I was actually backing his statements on why he shouldn't have a gun, he was obviously raised on a different enviorement than mine, hell, it would be extremely idiotic of him to play the hero if he doesn't have a gun, or what's worse, if he had one but didn't know what to do if the robber turned back on him, as he said. I'm not mocking him or trying to rise my ego, I'm just saying some people are allowed to have guns for x reason and some others aren't for y reason. That doesn't make any "superior" to the other, if I saw him getting robbed on the streets, I couldn't care less if he was anti-gun or pro-gun, the moment his life is in danger, it becomes the business of whoever responsible armed citizen is the closest to him, and he's entiled to his opinion after that.

 

And if the robber tried to run away after you pulled your gun on him? Would you have shot him?

[Z_Berenice]

You're not the police. What makes you think that you've somehow done some public disservice by deliberately removing yourself from danger by letting him rob you?

 

Essentially, you've just proven his point about "ego".

Figured I could bring all the points and consequences on the matter, since that's basically the whole point of being anti-gun. So suddenly I'm not allowed to do the same? And I was actually backing his statements on why he shouldn't have a gun, he was obviously raised on a different enviorement than mine, hell, it would be extremely idiotic of him to play the hero if he doesn't have a gun, or what's worse, if he had one but didn't know what to do if the robber turned back on him, as he said. I'm not mocking him or trying to rise my ego, I'm just saying some people are allowed to have guns for x reason and some others aren't for y reason. That doesn't make any "superior" to the other, if I saw him getting robbed on the streets, I couldn't care less if he was anti-gun or pro-gun, the moment his life is in danger, it becomes the business of whoever responsible armed citizen is the closest to him, and he's entiled to his opinion after that.

 

And if the robber tried to run away after you pulled your gun on him? Would you have shot him?

If he's running away then he's not a threat, why would I? If he's caught pointing the gun at him? That's a go in any country that allows you a carry permit.

[nine naked men]

But you're just letting another thief run free though?

[Z_Berenice]

But you're just letting another thief run free though?

Figured I could bring all the points and consequences on the matter.

Yup. I would be far more concerned about the condition of the person who just got robbed. I never said consequences applied to anti-guns only, or are you just getting that?

[Omar]

I think it might be legitimate to disable the thief in this case. Not sure if the law would consider that self-defense, but I might.

@Range: If you're a non-violent person, then why do you want people to initiate force against people who purchase guns? Voluntary cooperation is peace. The defining characteristic of government is aggression.