Evolution of PVP combat!

[V O R K]

Mod pi's PvP feedback thread has been going for six months now without much changes.

 

OSRS wilderness was last week and they've already made minor/slight changes to it.

 

:'(

[inner fears]

guess these 1k players on 07 needed it more ,  any of these changes suggested will be shift-deleted with topic soon enough

[V O R K]

@Mod Pi

[Rena]

Meanwhile in the Wilderness....

 

I teleport after seeing this guy while I was in full Subjugation+Arma Bstaff.

I bank and get 10 dragon darts w/ steel titan + 10 scrolls. I suicide into him to waste his time. He leaves for a while.

I go buy Batwing and try to go into Chaos Tunnels again....

He didn't even bother looting me. I looted my stuff and went on my way.

But what is the point of griefing like this?

 

 

 

 

 

It's players like this why I've become more and more spiteful against PvP in the Wilderness. There is no more honour left. Just players trying to grief others for a quick buck by camping Chaos Tunnel entrance or standing outside of a certain Quest teleport spot... pathetic.

 

I'm all for safe PvP and I do find PvP fun. But I can't support shit like this.

[muggiwhplar]

Didn't you return to him just to suicide and waste his time? Is that not grieving? >_>

[V O R K]

Yes we are all psychopaths on the lookout for murder.

 

kekeke.

[Rena]

Didn't you return to him just to suicide and waste his time? Is that not grieving? >_>

He was 100% fully prepared for PvP. He wants to fight and be attacked. So I went and fought him.The wilderness tells you before you enter "Only bring what you are willing to lose." I was only willing to lose 9 Dragon Darts and 8 Steel titan scrolls. He wants a fight - I brought him one.

 

However I know it wasn't worth his time because he didn't even pick up the loot I so graciously gave him for free.

 

If he wants the PvP to be worth his time he can go stake in the Duel Arena or fight in the Crucible (that has a minimum risk). He shouldn't be griefing people doing Slay tasks/hunting Champ scrolls. Because if he wants a fight - someone might just bring him one.

[muggiwhplar]

 

 

Didn't you return to him just to suicide and waste his time? Is that not grieving? >_>

He was 100% fully prepared for PvP. He wants to fight and be attacked. So I went and fought him.The wilderness tells you before you enter "Only bring what you are willing to lose." I was only willing to lose 9 Dragon Darts and 8 Steel titan scrolls. He wants a fight - I brought him one.

 

However I know it wasn't worth his time because he didn't even pick up the loot I so graciously gave him for free.

 

If he wants the PvP to be worth his time he can go stake in the Duel Arena or fight in the Crucible (that has a minimum risk). He shouldn't be griefing people doing Slay tasks/hunting Champ scrolls. Because if he wants a fight - someone might just bring him one.

Two wrongs don't make a right. I think in the future you should just move on, rather than try to waste everybody's time.

 

Your tone just seems sort of offended/entitled that someone would have the nerve to disrupt your skilling in the wilderness. You say that if he wants PvP he can go to the duel arena. Well following that logic, if you want skilling, you can stay away from the wilderness too since you don't seem very fond of its mechanics. If you choose to skill in the wilderness, he is the lion and you are the zebra. :P He's just doing what he came to do: to kill other, weaker players.

[Urza285]

From Mod Pi's twitter:

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/JagexPi/status/447056228586246144/photo/1

 

Looks promising as they can have armours with lower cost and higher pvp stats. This really looks like what WoW does with their pvm/pvp. I just hope pvp tops out at a moderate price.

[Alg]

Your tone just seems sort of offended/entitled that someone would have the nerve to disrupt your skilling in the wilderness. You say that if he wants PvP he can go to the duel arena. Well following that logic, if you want skilling, you can stay away from the wilderness too since you don't seem very fond of its mechanics. If you choose to skill in the wilderness, he is the lion and you are the zebra. :P He's just doing what he came to do: to kill other, weaker players.

It's worth noting that being the zebra just isn't fun, though. Predatory gameplay like that looks good on paper, but in practice... Well, there's a reason that a big part of the community has always hated dedicated PvP'ers without exception, since Jagex seems to believe that funneling zebras into the lion's mouth (and locking them out of content if they refuse) is well-balanced content, and both Jagex and the PvP community's traditional response to any complaints was essentially "shut up and deal with it, scrub".

 

This sort of gameplay would work if the game was built around PvP, or if the entire community was geared toward it, but they just aren't. Most players could not possibly have less interest in the wilderness and don't like being forced to lose hours of work on what can only be described as a one-sided fight... There's a reason that a sizable portion of the community celebrated the removal of wilderness PvP.

[muggiwhplar]

 

Your tone just seems sort of offended/entitled that someone would have the nerve to disrupt your skilling in the wilderness. You say that if he wants PvP he can go to the duel arena. Well following that logic, if you want skilling, you can stay away from the wilderness too since you don't seem very fond of its mechanics. If you choose to skill in the wilderness, he is the lion and you are the zebra. :P He's just doing what he came to do: to kill other, weaker players.

It's worth noting that being the zebra just isn't fun, though. Predatory gameplay like that looks good on paper, but in practice... Well, there's a reason that a big part of the community has always hated dedicated PvP'ers without exception, since Jagex seems to believe that funneling zebras into the lion's mouth (and locking them out of content if they refuse) is well-balanced content, and both Jagex and the PvP community's traditional response to any complaints was essentially "shut up and deal with it, scrub".

 

This sort of gameplay would work if the game was built around PvP, or if the entire community was geared toward it, but they just aren't. Most players could not possibly have less interest in the wilderness and don't like being forced to lose hours of work on what can only be described as a one-sided fight... There's a reason that a sizable portion of the community celebrated the removal of wilderness PvP.

 

 

With the exception of the new OSRS wild, I'd argue that the main reason why it never worked on RS3 is because there was never a strong enough incentive to train in the wilderness. If the wilderness is going to be the best place to train, it should be by far the best place to train. Off the top of my head, I can't really think of very many things you can do in the wilderness more efficiently than you can do elsewhere. Factoring in the fact that, like you said, PvP is basically dead in RS3, I don't really see the wilderness improving any time soon.

 

Regarding predatory gameplay, I've always gotten the vibe that skillers tend to be very risk-averse, play-it-safe kind of people, whereas PvP'ers were the bold risk-takers. So skillers naturally start getting uncomfortable and frustrated in environments where risk is involved. >_>

 

And being a zebra is very fun when you know how to outsmart the lion :P But it's hard to know how to outsmart a lion without being capable of putting yourself in the lion's shoes ;) In other words, if you want to skill successfully in the wilderness, it's going to be very difficult unless you're also an experienced PK'er. I'd recommend learning both playstyles rather than just one. Think about it: do you really think skillers would whine about the wilderness if they were also good at PK'ing? Doubt it. Part of the excitement of skilling in the wild meant that if a PK'er stopped by, I could either fight them in welfare skilling gear or bank and get full PK'ing gear and kick their ass :D But if I didn't know how to PK, then I'd probably just complain and feel sorry for myself since I'd basically be a helpless victim, unable to avenge/protect myself.

[Rena]

 

 

Didn't you return to him just to suicide and waste his time? Is that not grieving? >_>

He was 100% fully prepared for PvP. He wants to fight and be attacked. So I went and fought him.The wilderness tells you before you enter "Only bring what you are willing to lose." I was only willing to lose 9 Dragon Darts and 8 Steel titan scrolls. He wants a fight - I brought him one.

 

However I know it wasn't worth his time because he didn't even pick up the loot I so graciously gave him for free.

 

If he wants the PvP to be worth his time he can go stake in the Duel Arena or fight in the Crucible (that has a minimum risk). He shouldn't be griefing people doing Slay tasks/hunting Champ scrolls. Because if he wants a fight - someone might just bring him one.

Two wrongs don't make a right. I think in the future you should just move on, rather than try to waste everybody's time.

 

Your tone just seems sort of offended/entitled that someone would have the nerve to disrupt your skilling in the wilderness. You say that if he wants PvP he can go to the duel arena. Well following that logic, if you want skilling, you can stay away from the wilderness too since you don't seem very fond of its mechanics. If you choose to skill in the wilderness, he is the lion and you are the zebra. :P He's just doing what he came to do: to kill other, weaker players.

 

I'm not wasting his time. He doesn't value Gp/Hr or Xp/Hr or he wouldn't be standing idle in the wilderness waiting for some poor passerby to hit the loading chunk of the Edgeville/Chaos Tunnel area.

 

It's worth noting that the entrance to my skilling area happens to be located in the Wilderness. I didn't want to skill within the wilderness - I just happened to be passing through it.

 

I've died doing Warbands. I'm fine with that. I've died doing clues. Also fine with that but extremely frustrating. I'd think the PKer would be intelligent enough to wait until they see me do the dig animation in hopes of getting my clue reward - but I digress. I've been killed at Wildy Agility course. Of course, I'd classify this one as griefing since the PK'er gains nothing out of it (other than being poisoned by my DDS, which is the only item I'd bring to the Wilderness Course) but I'm actually FINE WITH THIS. Because I'm actually accepting that I'm in deep, dangerous wilderness and intend to skill within the wilderness.

 

I'm not fine with trying to get from Point A to Point B and being assaulted because a player has nothing better to do with their time than stand in an area that is not populated with anything but people wishing to enter the Chaos Tunnels (and not PvP)

 

If I wanted to avoid these players I could go the long way through Earth Temple entrance. Nor am I going to 'cave in to the bully'. I'll stand up for myself and fight. Even if I'm fighting in rags and have a slim-to-none chance of killing the PK'er. Part of what will revive the PvP aspect of the wilderness is more players "standing up for themselves" and fighting back. Some of those who care a bit more might come in better gear and try to fight harder. This is literally how PvP happens when the PvP isn't fun and can't stand on its own two legs. It's aggravators and people who are fed up with the bullies and decide to fight back. These skillers, as shown by Warbands, are capable of grouping up in psuedo-clans to defend themselves from "the bullies". This helps revive the wilderness.

 

 

Which brings me back to my original point:

This is why I don't want PvP to be alive. A community split between 'bullies' and 'nerds' is not something I want nor do I see it as healthy for the Runescape comunity and as you can see about my reaction, I already make this split because to some degree it's already happened...

 

It will add another divide between "efficient" and "DIY" groups that are already at eachothers' throats. We don't need another rift of two groups at each others' throats. If PvP were fun - players would PvP regardless of the rewards and wouldn't need to pick on the 'nerds'. Back in 2004-2005 the wilderness was thriving with PK'ers and low level pures who would fight each other for 5-25k simply because PvP was fun back then.

 

If you want the wilderness to be revived - find another way to do it besides griefing half the playerbase.

 

 

 

TL;DR

"It's the wilderness, it's meant to be dangerous! If you don't like that just STAY OUT!"

If everyone followed this advice and STAYED OUT. PK'ers wouldn't have anyone to PK - would they?

 

Likewise if it isn't worth your time PK'ing someone for 20k~, why the hell did you even attack them? Nothing short of griefing.

 

 

 

With the exception of the new OSRS wild, I'd argue that the main reason why it never worked on RS3 is because there was never a strong enough incentive to train in the wilderness. If the wilderness is going to be the best place to train, it should be by far the best place to train

If it was the most efficient place to train, it would be crowded with PK'ers.

If it was crowded with PK'ers, you'd be dying too often to train. Making it inefficient.

When it's inefficient it'll be dead content.

 

Then there are the few skillers who go there. Most PK'ers don't check the area anymore. Occasionally PK'ing happens but it's so infrequent nobody really takes notice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If PK'ers enjoyed PK'ing they'd fight each other. I see plenty of PK'ers each and every day, but they aren't PK'ing. They're griefing. Standing outside of chunk-loading areas to kill someone as they load into the area, standing outside quest-teleport spawns to kill questers. Standing outside Chaos Tunnel entrances to kill people doing Bork/Slaying. Standing by the Tree guy to kill people as they go to turn in their loot from Warbands.

 

They aren't fighting each other. Because that would actually risk them dying themselves. They just want a cheap and easy profit.

 

That's why PK'ing is dead. [it was dead long before RS3/EOC, so don't place the blame there.]

 

E:

Keep in mind my highly dismissive attitude is much like many players today. If you plan on bringing players like myself in, you're going to need to convince us that being griefed constantly is 'worth it'. Even if something is most efficient, not everyone plays efficiently. I have friends who don't use merchants for Ports because they dislike failing more missions even if they get less TG/resources if they aren't using a merchant. It's the enjoyment of succeeding missions that they play less efficiently.

 

If my choices were to be efficient and griefed in the Wilderness option or be less efficient and not have to deal with being griefed. I'll choose the latter. Every single time.

 

Some of this post is merely playing devils advocate. Some of it is to try and open the PK communities eyes to the world outside of the PK community. It seems to be one they don't quite understand, seeing as they state absurd things like "stay out of the wilderness" when it's the exact opposite of what they want players doing.

 

 

I think in the future you should just move on, rather than try to waste everybody's time.

Move onto where? I was just trying to enter the Chaos Tunnels. I WAS TRYING TO MOVE ON. He stood in my way. You can't enter the chaos tunnels when under attack, so I can't simply ignore him.

[Rena]

I could either fight them in welfare skilling gear or bank and get full PK'ing gear and kick their ass :D But if I didn't know how to PK, then I'd probably just complain and feel sorry for myself since I'd basically be a helpless victim, unable to avenge/protect myself.

This would work in any other game that isn't Runescape. Runescape lacks the PvP depth to allow outplaying or outsmarting an opponent. Short of extremely lucky RNG you'll never beat someone who is better geared or better leveled than you.

 

A level 155 will stand no chance to a level 200 in deep wilderness. There is absolutely no fighting back. That option simply doesn't exist in Runescape. You can't outplay the level 200 by dodging any skillshots while landing yours, whittling them down.

Ever since RS3 - gear makes an even larger difference than before. It's extremely unlikely you'll beat someone unless you are in similar tier gear or you build Adreniline more quickly. Before RS3 many, many, many PK'ers had 95 Prayer meaning you needed at a minimum 92 Prayer to really stand a fighting chance. Not to mention at any non-maxed level you needed an account specifically tailored to PvP to really stand a chance. Oh you have 63 defence? Enjoy getting demolished in every single fight.

 

The argument of "fight back" back then involved "make an entire new account, quest and train on it, buy 95 prayer, and then finally fight back on equal footing". Now the argument of "fight back" translates to "drop a few mill on Ports armor to even stand a fighting chance" which many players won't think is worth the GP out of their pocket... especially if they die... often.

 

Some players are just bad at PvP. Be it slow reactions or actual physical limitations (my nephew can only play with mousekeys and has extreme difficulties using a mouse, making PvM and PvP nearly impossible for him). Fighting back isn't even an option for these players.\

 

 

 

e:

Did you know? You can see this wall from space!

 

 

**DISCLAIMER TIME!!!! { the real TL;DR between both these posts}

 

I'd love nothing more for PvP to be fun and revived on the basis of being fun! I really do miss the days of 2004-2006 and having like 20 pure accounts I'd play on. I even tried a Range/Pray pure once called "Speaks for Him". I found PK'ing very enjoyable back then - and largely because it was Pk'ers vs PK'ers and everyone was just fighting and having fun. Low levels would make teams of 4-5 and try to PK each other. There was the occasionally BS'er you had to watch out for. Sometimes you'd make your own little team after being Bs'd by a guy to go kill his team! It was all sort of fun and carefree....

 

Nowadays it just seems like the Lions want to eat the harmless Zebras and justify it as being hunting when the Zebra is pretty much tied up and thrown at them and has an injured leg. I don't want PvP back if that is what its going to be like.

[Ammako]

TL;DR

"It's the wilderness, it's meant to be dangerous! If you don't like that just STAY OUT!"

If everyone followed this advice and STAYED OUT. PK'ers wouldn't have anyone to PK - would they?

This assumes that everyone doesn't like that, though. There will be people who are fine with it and go in the Wilderness anyway.

[Rena]

 

TL;DR

"It's the wilderness, it's meant to be dangerous! If you don't like that just STAY OUT!"

If everyone followed this advice and STAYED OUT. PK'ers wouldn't have anyone to PK - would they?

This assumes that everyone doesn't like that, though. There will be people who are fine with it and go in the Wilderness anyway.

 

And that number is so pathetically small that the Wilderness remains dead. That's the problem.

[muggiwhplar]

I'm not wasting his time. He doesn't value Gp/Hr or Xp/Hr or he wouldn't be standing idle in the wilderness waiting for some poor passerby to hit the loading chunk of the Edgeville/Chaos Tunnel area.

You may not be wasting his time, but you're wasting your own time (and pissing yourself off).

 

It's worth noting that the entrance to my skilling area happens to be located in the Wilderness. I didn't want to skill within the wilderness - I just happened to be passing through it.

Irrelevant. The entrance to that skilling area was placed in the wilderness for a reason. I imagine you feel the same way about the Abyss...?

 

I've died doing Warbands. I'm fine with that. I've died doing clues. Also fine with that but extremely frustrating. I'd think the PKer would be intelligent enough to wait until they see me do the dig animation in hopes of getting my clue reward - but I digress. I've been killed at Wildy Agility course. Of course, I'd classify this one as griefing since the PK'er gains nothing out of it (other than being poisoned by my DDS, which is the only item I'd bring to the Wilderness Course) but I'm actually FINE WITH THIS. Because I'm actually accepting that I'm in deep, dangerous wilderness and intend to skill within the wilderness.

 

I'm not fine with trying to get from Point A to Point B and being assaulted because a player has nothing better to do with their time than stand in an area that is not populated with anything but people wishing to enter the Chaos Tunnels (and not PvP)

I don't think you understand that what you're doing in the wilderness is irrelevant.

 

You're in the wilderness. People enter the wilderness TO KILL PEOPLE. They don't care what you're doing there-- they just want to kill you because they can, and because they probably have nothing to lose.

 

If I wanted to avoid these players I could go the long way through Earth Temple entrance. Nor am I going to 'cave in to the bully'. I'll stand up for myself and fight.

So you're intentionally making a decision which you know is going to make you unhappy because you're too stubborn to set aside your emotions and make smarter decisions.

 

Even if I'm fighting in rags and have a slim-to-none chance of killing the PK'er. Part of what will revive the PvP aspect of the wilderness is more players "standing up for themselves" and fighting back. Some of those who care a bit more might come in better gear and try to fight harder. This is literally how PvP happens when the PvP isn't fun and can't stand on its own two legs. It's aggravators and people who are fed up with the bullies and decide to fight back. These skillers, as shown by Warbands, are capable of grouping up in psuedo-clans to defend themselves from "the bullies". This helps revive the wilderness.

The only thing that will revive PvP is a complete overhaul of EoC, not changes to the wilderness. I don't think it's merely a coincidence that PvP died immediately after EoC came out...

 

Which brings me back to my original point:

This is why I don't want PvP to be alive. A community split between 'bullies' and 'nerds' is not something I want nor do I see it as healthy for the Runescape comunity and as you can see about my reaction, I already make this split because to some degree it's already happened...

 

It will add another divide between "efficient" and "DIY" groups that are already at eachothers' throats. We don't need another rift of two groups at each others' throats. If PvP were fun - players would PvP regardless of the rewards and wouldn't need to pick on the 'nerds'. Back in 2004-2005 the wilderness was thriving with PK'ers and low level pures who would fight each other for 5-25k simply because PvP was fun back then.

You're making mountains out of molehills. The only reason that "divides" such as these occur-- both in RS and in RL-- is because people refuse to understand the other side's perspective. Most skillers couldn't PK to save their life. And most PKers despise skilling. If you are going to choose to live an "extreme" playstyle without balance, then you're also going to succumb to the implications of such a playstyle.

 

As I said to Alg, if you wish to be happy and successful about something like this, then you need to learn how to become a decent PKer. Otherwise you're just going to keep playing the victim and feeling sorry for yourself whenever you die because you don't know how to fight. Go befriend some PKers and go PKing with them. Watch PK videos. Most PKers are idiots, if you just spent a week researching/practicing PvP, you'd be better than the majority of PKers.

 

If you want the wilderness to be revived - find another way to do it besides griefing half the playerbase.

Well to be honest I don't really give a shit about the wilderness and PvP in RS3 unless they completely overhaul EoC lol. In the mean time, I'll be enjoying OSRS where PvP is still the focus and endgame.

 

TL;DR

"It's the wilderness, it's meant to be dangerous! If you don't like that just STAY OUT!"

If everyone followed this advice and STAYED OUT. PK'ers wouldn't have anyone to PK - would they?

Again, this is why you need to learn how to PK.

 

Most PKers go into the wild to fight OTHER PKERS, not to go hunting for harmless, unskulled skillers who aren't risking anything. Even when the wilderness was in its prime back in 2004-2006, the only "skilling" in the wilderness was hunting green dragons and abyssal RC'ing. Perhaps rune rocks too but I'm not very familiar with that region of the wilderness. For every PKer hunting a runecrafter or a dragon farmer, there were at least two more PKers trying to kill that PKer because he's worth more loot than the skiller.

 

Likewise if it isn't worth your time PK'ing someone for 20k~, why the hell did you even attack them? Nothing short of griefing.

Because they can. It's as simple as that.

 

If it was the most efficient place to train, it would be crowded with PK'ers.

Yes.

 

If it was crowded with PK'ers, you'd be dying too often to train. Making it inefficient.

Inefficient if you're a skiller, yes. Efficient if you know how to PK the skillers. But judging by your comments regarding wilderness agility and warbands, wouldn't you be "fine" with getting killed whilst skilling in the wilderness under those circumstances?

 

When it's inefficient it'll be dead content.

And when it's dead content then that means that it's once again efficient to skill there because the area's deserted. The circle of life continues. :)

 

Then there are the few skillers who go there. Most PK'ers don't check the area anymore. Occasionally PK'ing happens but it's so infrequent nobody really takes notice.

Err... I see you've already contradicted yourself and made the point that I just made >_>

 

If PK'ers enjoyed PK'ing they'd fight each other. I see plenty of PK'ers each and every day, but they aren't PK'ing. They're griefing. Standing outside of chunk-loading areas to kill someone as they load into the area, standing outside quest-teleport spawns to kill questers. Standing outside Chaos Tunnel entrances to kill people doing Bork/Slaying. Standing by the Tree guy to kill people as they go to turn in their loot from Warbands.

 

They aren't fighting each other. Because that would actually risk them dying themselves. They just want a cheap and easy profit.

Sounds like a golden opportunity for you to kill them and get their loot. You should learn how to PK...

 

That's why PK'ing is dead. [it was dead long before RS3/EOC, so don't place the blame there.]

Relatively sure most PvP pure clans were active until EoC came along...

 

Keep in mind my highly dismissive attitude is much like many players today. If you plan on bringing players like myself in, you're going to need to convince us that being griefed constantly is 'worth it'.

I think the people who spent the most time PK'ing in the wilderness would rather have other PKers to fight, rather than more people like you :P

 

Even if something is most efficient, not everyone plays efficiently. I have friends who don't use merchants for Ports because they dislike failing more missions even if they get less TG/resources if they aren't using a merchant. It's the enjoyment of succeeding missions that they play less efficiently.

 

If my choices were to be efficient and griefed in the Wilderness option or be less efficient and not have to deal with being griefed. I'll choose the latter. Every single time.

That's fine as long as you're also fine with the implications of such a decision. But I get the feeling that you're not actually OK with that...

 

Some of this post is merely playing devils advocate. Some of it is to try and open the PK communities eyes to the world outside of the PK community. It seems to be one they don't quite understand, seeing as they state absurd things like "stay out of the wilderness" when it's the exact opposite of what they want players doing.

Like I said. Learn to PK and see what it's like to be in the wilderness as a killer, not a survivor. I guarantee you'll be a lot happier and less stressed out over this kind of thing if you know how to fight.

 

 

(For the record, I do realize that I'm whistling in the wind here by telling TIFers to go PK though. Tipit's always been focused on skilling and Zybez was the forum that focused on PKing. But I digress...)

 

 

 

This would work in any other game that isn't Runescape. Runescape lacks the PvP depth to allow outplaying or outsmarting an opponent. Short of extremely lucky RNG you'll never beat someone who is better geared or better leveled than you.

Like I said, learn how to PK and you'll learn all the nuances of PK'ing that separate the bad PKers from the good ones. I wrote a response to Ginger Warrior about this like a week ago but IDK which thread it's in. :wall: From what I hear, though, EoC PvP is more complicated than it was pre-EoC, which is good for you if you learn how to master it.

 

A level 155 will stand no chance to a level 200 in deep wilderness. There is absolutely no fighting back. That option simply doesn't exist in Runescape. You can't outplay the level 200 by dodging any skillshots while landing yours, whittling them down.

Ever since RS3 - gear makes an even larger difference than before. It's extremely unlikely you'll beat someone unless you are in similar tier gear or you build Adreniline more quickly.

Not sure if this is true or not since like I said, I don't PK in RS3. Though IDK why a low level PKer would be out alone in the deep wild with the intention of PKing in clan territory...

 

Before RS3 many, many, many PK'ers had 95 Prayer meaning you needed at a minimum 92 Prayer to really stand a fighting chance. Not to mention at any non-maxed level you needed an account specifically tailored to PvP to really stand a chance. Oh you have 63 defence? Enjoy getting demolished in every single fight.

Depends on your combat level, your stats, and your opponent's stats. Certain builds counter other builds. My PKing buddy made more money PKing than I did and he had "main" stats. In other words, balanced combat; not low defense and high offense or vice versa. He knew how to fight better than his opponents did.

 

The argument of "fight back" back then involved "make an entire new account, quest and train on it, buy 95 prayer, and then finally fight back on equal footing". Now the argument of "fight back" translates to "drop a few mill on Ports armor to even stand a fighting chance" which many players won't think is worth the GP out of their pocket... especially if they die... often.

There's a reason why all of a sudden, it became incredibly common to see people say things like "No smite!" or "No vengeance!": It's because PKers actually put up with this kind of behavior because they wanted a challenging fight so badly. All you had to do was say "turn off soul split or I run" and I can almost guarantee they'd oblige.

 

Some players are just bad at PvP. Be it slow reactions or actual physical limitations (my nephew can only play with mousekeys and has extreme difficulties using a mouse, making PvM and PvP nearly impossible for him). Fighting back isn't even an option for these players.\

Yeah. Those people should probably avoid the wild..

 

e:

Did you know? You can see this wall from space!

Yeah I had a heart attack when I realized the can of worms I'd opened. :P

 

I'd love nothing more for PvP to be fun and revived on the basis of being fun! I really do miss the days of 2004-2006 and having like 20 pure accounts I'd play on. I even tried a Range/Pray pure once called "Speaks for Him". I found PK'ing very enjoyable back then - and largely because it was Pk'ers vs PK'ers and everyone was just fighting and having fun. Low levels would make teams of 4-5 and try to PK each other. There was the occasionally BS'er you had to watch out for. Sometimes you'd make your own little team after being Bs'd by a guy to go kill his team! It was all sort of fun and carefree....

 

Nowadays it just seems like the Lions want to eat the harmless Zebras and justify it as being hunting when the Zebra is pretty much tied up and thrown at them and has an injured leg. I don't want PvP back if that is what its going to be like.

Perhaps the lions are hunting the zebras because there's no lions left to hunt...

[Alg]

With the exception of the new OSRS wild, I'd argue that the main reason why it never worked on RS3 is because there was never a strong enough incentive to train in the wilderness. If the wilderness is going to be the best place to train, it should be by far the best place to train. Off the top of my head, I can't really think of very many things you can do in the wilderness more efficiently than you can do elsewhere. Factoring in the fact that, like you said, PvP is basically dead in RS3, I don't really see the wilderness improving any time soon.

 

Regarding predatory gameplay, I've always gotten the vibe that skillers tend to be very risk-averse, play-it-safe kind of people, whereas PvP'ers were the bold risk-takers. So skillers naturally start getting uncomfortable and frustrated in environments where risk is involved. >_>

 

And being a zebra is very fun when you know how to outsmart the lion :P But it's hard to know how to outsmart a lion without being capable of putting yourself in the lion's shoes ;) In other words, if you want to skill successfully in the wilderness, it's going to be very difficult unless you're also an experienced PK'er. I'd recommend learning both playstyles rather than just one. Think about it: do you really think skillers would whine about the wilderness if they were also good at PK'ing? Doubt it. Part of the excitement of skilling in the wild meant that if a PK'er stopped by, I could either fight them in welfare skilling gear or bank and get full PK'ing gear and kick their ass :D But if I didn't know how to PK, then I'd probably just complain and feel sorry for myself since I'd basically be a helpless victim, unable to avenge/protect myself.

I would be agreeing with you so hard if we were playing Dark Souls.

 

Generally, though, the problem is forcing a square peg into a round hole. Skillers are not PKers - many will never be PKers and have no interest in learning an entirely new metagame for something that they will probably never find fun (Without even getting into how painful learning would be). Especially since they're very explicit about how these skillers exist solely as prey - wilderness content has frequently and openly been designed to benefit PKers at the cost of other 'classes', and those classes are expected to be okay with it.

[muggiwhplar]

If skilling in the wilderness is so important to some people, I can't really imagine how a person with such beliefs wouldn't have any desire to learn how to protect themselves and their friends >_>

[Rena]

First off I'd like to thank you for reading and replying to that big wall of text.

Now let's move forward.

 

Irrelevant. The entrance to that skilling area was placed in the wilderness for a reason. I imagine you feel the same way about the Abyss...?

It was placed there back when the Wilderness was not a PvP area and you only had to worry about a Level 20 Imp Revenant ruining your day... which was pretty unlikely. It wasn't in a dangerous area.

 

 

I don't think you understand that what you're doing in the wilderness is irrelevant.

You're in the wilderness. People enter the wilderness TO KILL PEOPLE. They don't care what you're doing there-- they just want to kill you because they can, and because they probably have nothing to lose.

They also have nothing to gain in most cases. I, and a majority of players, classify that as Griefing and don't want to deal with nor put up with it. Which is why many of us choose not to enter the Wilderness at all.

 

 

So you're intentionally making a decision which you know is going to make you unhappy because you're too stubborn to set aside your emotions and make smarter decisions.

If everyone made that decision you'd see nobody entering the wilderness. I value my time more than I value 20k. In the time it takes for my death animation to finish I've already made my 20k back from merching. I value my time enough to not take the long way each and every time for similar reasons. It isn't worth my time.

 

 

The only thing that will revive PvP is a complete overhaul of EoC, not changes to the wilderness. I don't think it's merely a coincidence that PvP died immediately after EoC came out...

 

Relatively sure most PvP pure clans were active until EoC came along...

PvP has been dead since 2011~2012 and had started declining due to the powercreep in 2006~ and a large chunk of PvPers quit as of 2007 for obvious reasons. Even clans were struggling to stay alive in 2010-2012 as fewer and fewer clans were doing PKRI's and crashwars was pretty much the strongest (and most frustrating) revival of the clans for a while.

 

 

Most PKers go into the wild to fight OTHER PKERS, not to go hunting for harmless, unskulled skillers who aren't risking anything.

Wilderness skulls have been removed from the game. You lose all items on death now.

 

 

You're making mountains out of molehills. The only reason that "divides" such as these occur-- both in RS and in RL-- is because people refuse to understand the other side's perspective. Most skillers couldn't PK to save their life. And most PKers despise skilling. If you are going to choose to live an "extreme" playstyle without balance, then you're also going to succumb to the implications of such a playstyle.

As I said to Alg, if you wish to be happy and successful about something like this, then you need to learn how to become a decent PKer. Otherwise you're just going to keep playing the victim and feeling sorry for yourself whenever you die because you don't know how to fight. Go befriend some PKers and go PKing with them. Watch PK videos. Most PKers are idiots, if you just spent a week researching/practicing PvP, you'd be better than the majority of PKers.

I PK'd from 2004-2006. I PK'd occasionally from 2008-2010 as a maxed Range Tank. I was very succesfull when I went, but I did not enjoy it (only so often I could deal with Korasi rushers, Dclaw 1 itemers, Storm of Armadyl, and everyone @ Mage Bank just yakking back anything worth killing them for)

 

Don't make assumptions that I'm a bad PK'er simply because I value my time more than to PK someone for a few hundred K. I've made over 600m PK'ing and most of those funds went towards my buyables at the time. You assume I'm some useless skiller incapable of PvP simply because I no longer find it worth my time nor have I found it fun for over 8 years.

 

During my time as a Ranged Tank I only PK'd because it was my best money maker outside of hunting Grenwalls and Duo'ing Armadyl.

 

 

Well to be honest I don't really give a shit about the wilderness and PvP in RS3 unless they completely overhaul EoC lol. In the mean time, I'll be enjoying OSRS where PvP is still the focus and endgame.

And still needed to be revived because RS PvP hasn't been fun since 2004-2006 before the Powercreep kicked in.

 

 

Like I said, learn how to PK and you'll learn all the nuances of PK'ing that separate the bad PKers from the good ones. I wrote a response to Ginger Warrior about this like a week ago but IDK which thread it's in. :wall: From what I hear, though, EoC PvP is more complicated than it was pre-EoC, which is good for you if you learn how to master it.

Stunscape and first to 100% Adrenline wins is the current state of PvP. In the beta it was "nobody ever dies with proper use of defensive abilities" (I spent the entire beta fighting in the duel arena, as did many other PK'ers).

 

There is even a current bug that allows you to keep adreneline somehow which almost guarentees you win the fight. (To clarify: Monsters and Players have different ardenline bars to prevent a player from starting a fight with 100% Adreneline vs another Player. There is a glitch to get around this however.)

 

 

 

Not sure if this is true or not since like I said, I don't PK in RS3.

Tierscape. If you're using Tier 6-7 weaponry vs T8-9 armor your accuracy is so low you'll pretty much never hit the enemy.

 

 

There's a reason why all of a sudden, it became incredibly common to see people say things like "No smite!" or "No vengeance!": It's because PKers actually put up with this kind of behavior because they wanted a challenging fight so badly. All you had to do was say "turn off soul split or I run" and I can almost guarantee they'd oblige.

Do you not see the irony of PKers asking their opponents to handicap themselves so they can have a fair fight yet turning a blind eye towards the huge disadvantage a skiller has when fighting a Pker?

 

 

Perhaps the lions are hunting the zebras because there's no lions left to hunt...

Because all the smart lions quit in 2006, the slow lions quit in 2007, the stubborn lions quit in 2009-2010, and only the famished, hungry lions ready to attack anything that moves remain. There are a hundred and one better games for PvP than Runescape. Games that take a much higher skillcap, games that fights are much more fair and a lot less RNG based, games that require much less grinding. Back in the early days - Runescape didn't have much competition for anything, PvP included. It's PvP was pretty damn unique. AT THE TIME. A lot of PK'ers have simply left for games where the PvP is much more fun and rewarding.

 

The bottom line:

To fix PvP you need to make it fun and rewarding. This will cause lions to fight lions. Simply because ITS FUN TO DO SO. Like how it was in 2004-2006. Lions fighting Lions because IT WAS FUN. They didn't need any reasons to fight. They didn't need Zebras to prey on. They just wanted to have fun.

 

If PvP was fun - you'd see more people PvP'ing.

 

E:
By rewarding I don't mean good money or XP either. I mean it just feels good to PK, regardless if you win or lose. There are many games that are very rewarding even if you are doing badly in them, simply because the gameplay is VERY fun! Rewarding gameplay is the #1 most important thing in good game design. Learning how to make losing at least somewhat fun instead of completely frustrating is something very difficult for many beginning game designers.

 

Although sometimes 100% pure frustration can be fun... see: I wanna be the guy

 

But in that game - dying is in a way rewarding... because you learn how to NOT die at that spot! :P Something important and central to the games design (to be bullshit hard)

[muggiwhplar]

I agree more or less...

 

PKers requested handicaps and allowed it because they were both PKers and "honor" was an easy way to coerce people into handicapping themselves back then.

[Alg]

If skilling in the wilderness is so important to some people, I can't really imagine how a person with such beliefs wouldn't have any desire to learn how to protect themselves and their friends >_>

I'm thinking back to ye olde dayse, where the wilderness had some of the only reasonably ways to train certain skills... There was really no chance of an abyss RCer fighting back against an abyss PKer - even if they were skilled, they pretty much had to choose between bringing skilling supplies or bringing combat gear (Or rune miners, with an inventory full of ore and a pickaxe versus an inventory of food and a Ddagger). There is an inherent disadvantage there, but it's one that Jagex seems intent on preserving.

 

If they would move away from that style, I'd be all for it.

[Rena]

 

With the exception of the new OSRS wild, I'd argue that the main reason why it never worked on RS3 is because there was never a strong enough incentive to train in the wilderness. If the wilderness is going to be the best place to train, it should be by far the best place to train. Off the top of my head, I can't really think of very many things you can do in the wilderness more efficiently than you can do elsewhere. Factoring in the fact that, like you said, PvP is basically dead in RS3, I don't really see the wilderness improving any time soon.

 

Regarding predatory gameplay, I've always gotten the vibe that skillers tend to be very risk-averse, play-it-safe kind of people, whereas PvP'ers were the bold risk-takers. So skillers naturally start getting uncomfortable and frustrated in environments where risk is involved. >_>

 

And being a zebra is very fun when you know how to outsmart the lion :P But it's hard to know how to outsmart a lion without being capable of putting yourself in the lion's shoes ;) In other words, if you want to skill successfully in the wilderness, it's going to be very difficult unless you're also an experienced PK'er. I'd recommend learning both playstyles rather than just one. Think about it: do you really think skillers would whine about the wilderness if they were also good at PK'ing? Doubt it. Part of the excitement of skilling in the wild meant that if a PK'er stopped by, I could either fight them in welfare skilling gear or bank and get full PK'ing gear and kick their ass :D But if I didn't know how to PK, then I'd probably just complain and feel sorry for myself since I'd basically be a helpless victim, unable to avenge/protect myself.

I would be agreeing with you so hard if we were playing Dark Souls.

 

Generally, though, the problem is forcing a square peg into a round hole. Skillers are not PKers - many will never be PKers and have no interest in learning an entirely new metagame for something that they will probably never find fun (Without even getting into how painful learning would be). Especially since they're very explicit about how these skillers exist solely as prey - wilderness content has frequently and openly been designed to benefit PKers at the cost of other 'classes', and those classes are expected to be okay with it.

 

Dark Souls suffers from the problem that in order to succesfully PvP you generally need an account designed and built around PvP'ing as its goal for all but the most skilled of PvPers.

 

But the important difference is that with skill alone you can win a fight you were disadvantaged in a majority of the time becaue the combat w/ parrying and dodging and only striking when there is an opportune time is very, very important to Dark Souls PVP and is part of what makes it so fun and rewarding. Someone really skilled at PvP will beat unskilled players against most odds.

 

You'll never, ever, ever in a million years see someone using dragon weaponry and barrows armor beat someone in tectonic/seismic on Runescape.

 

Runescape lacks that kind of depth and previously where it was largely Weapon/Level based it is now mostly Armour/Weapon based. There is a very, very low "skill" cap to meet to be a good PK'er. Not to say that skill doesn't exist in Runescape. It's what seperates the good and the bad PKers, but compared to most other games the skill variety (the difference between the worst skilled and best skilled players) is actually really low...

 

Take a simple party game like Super smash Bros Melee (or Brawl if that's your flavor). You'll almost NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS see a Casual player beat a player who attends Tournaments. At Tournaments there is a clear difference between "pubs" and power rankers. You'll never seen some randomer beat Mango/MikeHaze/Mew2King/Tyrant/Ally/ultimateRazer/etc. You pretty much only see Power Rankers beating other Power Rankers because the skill differences between most players and the top players is large enough that SKILL actually matters.

 

I bet you I can find some youtube videos right now of really good Pk'ers losing fights that they should have won but RNG simply said "no, you're going to hit 11 0's in a row using Vestas and die to a 44/42 DDS spec. :) "

 

That's always been a "flaw" in Runescape PvP. Some people kind of liked the randomness - but its part of what makes PKing not very rewarding... you aren't rewarded for being extremely skilled. You still have to bow down to RNG like everyone else. In EoC its a lot different... more rewarding. But you die so fast that it isn't fun anymore. Although if you master EoC combat you're pretty much unstoppable since most people don't know EoC PvP.

 

Many players would rather have more fun but "less reward" in OSRS than EoC where it's "more rewarding but not very fun at all".

[muggiwhplar]

 

If skilling in the wilderness is so important to some people, I can't really imagine how a person with such beliefs wouldn't have any desire to learn how to protect themselves and their friends >_>

I'm thinking back to ye olde dayse, where the wilderness had some of the only reasonably ways to train certain skills... There was really no chance of an abyss RCer fighting back against an abyss PKer - even if they were skilled, they pretty much had to choose between bringing skilling supplies or bringing combat gear (Or rune miners, with an inventory full of ore and a pickaxe versus an inventory of food and a Ddagger). There is an inherent disadvantage there, but it's one that Jagex seems intent on preserving.

 

If they would move away from that style, I'd be all for it.

 

 

It was very easy to escape from a RC PKer though if you were runecrafting. And it was also sort of taboo to be a RC PKer back then-- a lot of people, including myself, would hop from world to world, actively hunting down RC PKers since they were such easy kills worth decent loot. This was one of the most famous PK videos of that time because people hated RC PKers so much:

 

 

The PKers are what made abyssal RC'ing fun. I tried RC'ing for about an hour on OSRS the other day but there weren't any PKers so I got bored and quit. The RC PKers kept me on my toes, and they were a lot of fun to kill/scare off after banking. Or I could just keep RC'ing and tell my other PKer friends that there was an easy kill at the abyss if they were interested :P

 

If I never PK'd and didn't have any friends who PK'd, I can imagine that I wouldn't have enjoyed RC'ing so much back then.

[Rena]

Oh hey, a perfect example of what I was talking about.

 

That PvP was very fun but not very rewarding. Notice at how 1:40 he lands a barrage with a single DDS spec to drop the other guy? There was very little skilled involve din that particular kill (there is more skill in other kills, but this is an example of the flaw of Runescape PvP)

 

Edit:

[huge jump from 1:30 to 4:30 because I was enjoying video too much and forgot I was looking for un-rewarding kills]

 

4:30 is another example. 4 Decent/good DDS specs followed by 1 good Whip hit. That RNG luck...

 

4:50 is another example. 2 DDS specs.

 

Those weren't "well timed specs on a low HP target". There was no skill in timing those specs (which is about all the skill that specing ever had...) It was just pure luck.

 

 

It was very fun for the guy hitting - but not very fun for the guy splashing 9/10 spells and hitting 0's with his DDS specs. That's what unrewarding PvP feels like. I don't want to die because RNG favored the other guy. I want to die because I got outplayed.

 

 

 

Again - keep in mind I'm not saying every single fight was dictated by RNG (every fight technically is though...) ... but many are more "fair" dice rolls and the kill was far more rewarding because the fight was much more close/fair for both sides)

 

 

You don't necessarily have to be winning to have fun either:

 

I've been dropped for 15-20m~ in gear because I got unlucky and that felt like shit. I wasn't outplayed or outskilled at all... the guy just hit the luckiest DBow spec of his life (82 damage). I've also won with similar luck -which also isn't very rewarding... it's nice to get the loot but it isn't rewarding.

 

I've also had fights where I was just plain outmatched and got outbridded and dropped due to poor pray switches/missing item switches. THOSE FIGHTS WERE STILL FUN AND REWARDING. Sadly they were the minority of my fights...if EVERY SINGLE FIGHT was as rewarding as these fights were, I'd never have quit PK'ing. There will never be anything as rewarding to me as a good, fair PvP fight that wasn't dictated entirely by lucky specs (the problems of the past) or being out-geared (the problems of EoC).

[muggiwhplar]

Someone with 91 strength KOs someone wearing mystic robes and you think those hits were "lucky?" >_>

 

No, a bad RNG roll was when I was tank ranging at 99 defense + brew, with torags helm and legs, and a guy kills me with a 35-35 spec :P But things like that were rare, unlike hitting high specs on someone wearing mystic.