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Evolution of PVP combat!


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#1
V O R K
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QFC: 45-46-530-65177282

Discuss.

Edited by Quyneax, 11 October 2013 - 12:53 PM.
Added QFC

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#2
Yoko Kurama
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It's a very good step, though I fear it may be too late. I am not sure if all those Pkers can be persuaded to return, especially if EoC stays (and I don't think getting rid of EoC just to get Pkers back is a very good idea either). 



#3
Ammako
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I think it'd be cool if there were a few worlds where the Wilderness was a safe PvP area or something.
Then they could add some more stuff to that to make a new PvP minigame, but I can't quite put my finger on it yet.

Basically making the whole Wilderness a PvP minigame, except that you can join or leave it at anytime (instead of having to wait for games to start, etc.), add some interesting rewards to it and it could be fun.

#4
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I am a big proponent of PVP servers as they existed during the early part of the PVP servers of 2009.



#5
Fallstar
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The biggest issue is the number of abilities used per minute, which is caused by a large number of low cooldown basic abilities and the way adrenaline is generated. This is, imo, the biggest problem with the EoC as a whole. That you effectively learn optimum rotations for your goal, be it PvP, slayer or PvM, and then repeat that rotation. 

 

A more tactical approach to the ability system is required, and the way adrenaline is generated needs to be reworked. 

 

I personally like the idea of completely removing basic abilities and having auto attacks generate adrenaline. You then have a large number of thresholds and a few ultimates to choose from, which leaves combat being in the same vein as the old combat system, whilst still being more varied. It makes adrenaline usage much more tactical.


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#6
Quyneax
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Good stuff, I'll be posting a bit there.

My prediction is that Jagex will not succeed in revitalizing PvP.
Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions
99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)
99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)
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Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring
Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace
30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

#7
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I've been pking since 2005 and still am. (If there are people in wilderness, FoG, Duel arena, ...)
 
What do you miss from the old system?
 
Passive effects and variation of success through cycling of different weaponry and armour. I agree that the delay on abilities is crucial to PVP; because we are stuck to using one class of armour with no leeway at all. As example there is the "smash" ability which negates the opponents prayers yet when you switch to a godsword (whilst maging) to use this ability you are in a dire/dangerous moment which could get you killed whilst this should actually be a tactic. I'd love switching to a shield aswell when using dual wield magic.
 
If this delay is gone* this opens up a plethora of options: I like most of the abilities and EOC is somewhat more balanced but the fact we are restrained to using a full armour set (which can cost in the millions with Tier 8+) makes it so that people don't risk and it makes the PVP-experience rather bland since you don't see any other armours or weapons used then everyone else.
 
Solution*: I especially liked that we could imbue our Dagganoth king rings with Mobilising armies to make them stronger or the dominion tower gloves which have a passive effect on the gloves. We need more items like this with certain bonuses/effects/"specials"!
 
Why not revive/renew/imbue a lot of the older items being used in PVP to spice the situation up;
 
Whilst wearing the Fighter torso there's an extra DMG percentile on the "Sever" ability
Defenders add accuracy to dual-wield abilities
The barrows set effects without having to use the mainhand weapon (thus one can use chaotics, drygore, seismic, ascension instead)
FoG Combat, battle, druid & range coifs get critical bonuses or extra percentiles on spell DMG or abilty DMG
Give the wand of treachery an effect alike the Ghasts in Morytania; rots food!
^
All but examples
 
With the imbue method you can also revive a lot of older unused items to the EOC-era
 
"Improved" Amulet of accuracy: adds +x percent to range accuracy
"Improved" Ring of recoil: more damage
 
Aren't we living in the sixth age now? Why aren't we imbueing our weaponry and armour with divine energy to have PVP-only effects?
 
If you need more examples I can make an endless list if you want. 
 
----
"Counter-stun" or "Evade-stun" ability which replenishes rather fast and must be timed at the same time as when the opponent uses a stun abilty.
Soulsplit is nice but we need a better "Smite" counterpart.
Ultimates should be stronger, the glory of pking before was switching to another weapon and KO"ing the opponent, this is no longer possible since the ultimates aren't strong enough.
We need more items in Tier 7 - 7,5 - 8 since nobody wants to risk full armour sets (which cost up to 100-200m discarding the T9 weapons), if we have more options along with interesting passive effects or imbued powers people will perhaps find interest again.
Vengeance was great, it no longer is.
The HP bar lags, this is crucial.
----
 
Duel arena and wilderness tournaments, BH should be reimplented, years back this was a bad idea but for the EOC these are excellent minigames. I know it's shallow hope to see these returned but since I staked all of my RS-playtime and it's dead now I will be investing all of my GP's into player-made clan events: Duel arena tournaments.
 
Pvp highscores
 
We shouldn't tunnelvision on the wilderness but whilst I used to PK at: Mage bank, green drags (west and east), edgeville, zamorak prayer altar/chaos altar, forinthry dungeon/revenants, RR(runerocks), Chaos elemental and found people everywhere on every world nowadays I find nobody and I switch to EVERY world. I feel the maxed people have it the hardest now, why would I risk taking my full seasinger and chaotic staff when someone in Ganodermic/Staff of light can as easily win with the same ability rotation. 
 
The wilderness is no longer a place where people venture to gather riches, there are better places to gather runite ores now, the QBD has better loot then the KBD and the chaos elemental has drops which other non-wilderness monsters have aswell. 
 
Solution:
Add more runite rocks, add another place where revenants roam and spice up the droprate since it's abysmal (brawler gloves are unheard of), Wilderness tournaments, more specialized weaponry/armour that is PVP-catered from minigames/wilderness kill.
 
Still brainstorming, any feedback/criticism/suggestions/thoughts are highly appreciated.

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#8
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https://docs.google....6aZE/edit?pli=1

 

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#9
Quyneax
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Yes, that's my list of suggestions, combat sections. But it's not finished yet so don't take it as such. There may be old things in there that I don't think are a good idea anymore, or that don't work with other sections. The equipment section, for example, outlines a really complicated system, which I like, but may not be good for the game.

I'd like to note that the fairly common suggestion of 'more wilderness resources' won't work. Most of the game's runite isn't from rocks, it's from the Queen Black Dragon and other monsters. You'll have to remove skilling resources from PvM drop tables to make rune rocks viable again. Which is something I'd support, but it's not something Jagex will implement.
Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions
99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)
99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)
99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)
99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)
99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)
Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring
Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace
30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

#10
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add special attacks to individual weapons in the form of abilities only usable when a particular weapon is weilded

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#11
V O R K
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Yes, that's my list of suggestions, combat sections. But it's not finished yet so don't take it as such. There may be old things in there that I don't think are a good idea anymore, or that don't work with other sections. The equipment section, for example, outlines a really complicated system, which I like, but may not be good for the game.

I'd like to note that the fairly common suggestion of 'more wilderness resources' won't work. Most of the game's runite isn't from rocks, it's from the Queen Black Dragon and other monsters. You'll have to remove skilling resources from PvM drop tables to make rune rocks viable again. Which is something I'd support, but it's not something Jagex will implement.

 

Brilliant piece of paper by the way then :). Fatigue is perhaps outdated :P not to say a good concept though.

 

I agree that it won't happen but then again, from time to time I mine a runite rock or two so it's a shame there aren't more skilling opportunities in the Wilderness which are viable/profitable. I know I could kill grotworms instead but I want to mine ;).

 

We need tier-scaling alike BOL equipment for PVP equipment.

A longer ability bar or three ability bars under each other which are easilier to switch to.


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#12
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add special attacks to individual weapons in the form of abilities only usable when a particular weapon is weilded 

Special attacks 2.0? no ty


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#13
V O R K
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I think it'd be cool if there were a few worlds where the Wilderness was a safe PvP area or something.
Then they could add some more stuff to  that to make a new PvP minigame, but I can't quite put my finger on it yet.

Basically making the whole Wilderness a PvP minigame, except that you can join or leave it at anytime (instead of having to wait for games to start, etc.), add some interesting rewards to it and it could be fun.

 

Runescape is one of the only games with loot on killdrop, why ruin that and make it completely WNB WOW

 

There's a white portal for you.


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#14
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why? they added a variety to combat. now everything is tier based and boring

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#15
Ammako
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I think it'd be cool if there were a few worlds where the Wilderness was a safe PvP area or something.
Then they could add some more stuff to  that to make a new PvP minigame, but I can't quite put my finger on it yet.

Basically making the whole Wilderness a PvP minigame, except that you can join or leave it at anytime (instead of having to wait for games to start, etc.), add some interesting rewards to it and it could be fun.

 
Runescape is one of the only games with loot on killdrop, why ruin that and make it completely WNB WOW
 
There's a white portal for you.


Hence the second sentence in my post...
Besides, it sounds like you didn't take the time to read my post at all. That, or you're just overreacting.

#16
V O R K
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Castlewars, FoG, Crucible, Duel arena (non-staked), Soul wars, clan wars, tzhaar fight pit, ... It seems safety nor rewards are a solution to revive PVP since most of these minigames are dead. Why turn the wilderness into this aswell?

 

I'm angry at Jagex for taking so long but okay i'll respond in the same manner:

 

It seems you can't handle critique that well, Ping. 


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#17
Ammako
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Are you doing this on purpose or you really didn't see the part where I said it would only be a few worlds?

#18
V O R K
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I'm disagreeing since the wilderness was never safe and we already have multiple options for safe-pvp.

 

but I should never be taken serious though, all suggestions towards pvp are :thumbsup:

 

edit:

 

Damn I suck at lying. Yeah I didn't see it, after rethinking this it'd be a great step-up to give people an introduction to the wilderness, perhaps after they have the taste they'll try to take a risk.


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#19
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To my mind:

 

The core problem with PvP: The Pvpers.

The fix: None really.

 

Thinking more in wildy terms than minigames.

Pvpers say they want exciting engaging pvp needing tactics with great rewards - Pvpers moan about abilities and the combat triangle making things too risky and refuse to go out in more than cheap and cheerful welfare gear.

 

They seem to just want a golden goose that doesn't exist:

PvP combat that is exciting and engaging that requires tactics yet allows them to ignore the combat triangle and overcome all abilities with ease.

Whilst at the same time it needs to give massive payouts but with them only making a minimal risk.

 

In terms of pvp minigames I think the solution lies in two simple fixes:

1) As the games get busier use instancing etc. to make divides of players based on gear stats as well as levels. This makes it more enjoyable for lower levels and those with lesser gear as they aren't just going to be koed by someone in torva all the time. This system needs to be adaptive so that the groupings can change based on how busy it is at the game

2) Give games decent rewards in metagame terms. This means the games NEED to give SOMETHING that is worth the time invested to get it, this doesn't mean it needs to best xp rates or w/e of external training but it ought to offer something comparable.

Some examples of this would be:

Ba is far to complex and long winded for lvl 40 hybrid armour, equally so for the bonus xp it gives as you can earn more xp in less time just training.

Castlewars like what does this actually pay out? Oh yay I have some bad armour that is kinda useful in the game but useless elsewhere? SCORE.

 

Answers to this could be various level-my-x based gear that can be a little better than normal bought gear but costs the time investment opposed to gp investment.

Admittedly I have little other ideas for such rewards and they are by no means easy to come up with, but for minigames to get foot traffic they need to be something that fits in to the metagame. This is kinda an issue at large with the game rather than simply making 'fun' things or 'alternatives' that do not compete things need to balanced so that at any given level they are all in the ballpark of equal making them all viable semi-metagame choices so people could pursue a simpler expensive route or do something more fun and not feel like they are failing or falling behind.


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#20
Lord Zophar
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I think it'd be cool if there were a few worlds where the Wilderness was a safe PvP area or something.
Then they could add some more stuff to that to make a new PvP minigame, but I can't quite put my finger on it yet.

Basically making the whole Wilderness a PvP minigame, except that you can join or leave it at anytime (instead of having to wait for games to start, etc.), add some interesting rewards to it and it could be fun.

I would greatly appreciate this, as well.

 

Jagex seems so intent on putting awesome skilling resources in the Wilderness, it would be nice if I could take advantage of such things without having to worry about the chance that a PKer tries to kill me for my gear. If there were worlds where PKing was just an inconvenience instead of a risk in the Wilderness, I would be far more encouraged to venture into that area.

 

The PKers would still have the majority of worlds to try to kill people for their loot, and the skillers could take shelter in the two or three "Safe Wilderness" worlds. Everybody is happy.


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