Do YOU believe in God?

[Satenza]

'Can God create a rock so heavy he himself can not lift it?'

 

 

 

God is omnipotent, meaning that He can do all things which are intrinsically possible. It follows that He cannot do those things which are intrinsically contradictory, nonsensical, or otherwise impossible. Non-sense is non-sense, even if you put the words "God can" in front of it.

 

 

 

Exactly. Contradictions are just pieces of garbage that non-christians throw at us to challenge our mental beliefs.

 

 

 

I am Christian. I believe in God, and perfection in spirit is what I long to have.

 

 

 

As a pose to Christians constantly scaring people into having faith in a saviour? Or baptising children when the can't do anything into their religion when they may not wan't to be a part of it? Or maybe even going to war, on account of Gods name.

 

 

 

Ido not agree in war in anyway. You say Gods followers burn't all their possesions? Killed their wifes and children on Gods word? Such a nice God.

 

 

 

Don't hit me up with the greater good argument either

[imhomer]

'Can God create a rock so heavy he himself can not lift it?'

 

 

 

God is omnipotent, meaning that He can do all things which are intrinsically possible. It follows that He cannot do those things which are intrinsically contradictory, nonsensical, or otherwise impossible. Non-sense is non-sense, even if you put the words "God can" in front of it.

 

 

 

Exactly. Contradictions are just pieces of garbage that non-christians throw at us to challenge our mental beliefs.

 

 

 

I am Christian. I believe in God, and perfection in spirit is what I long to have.

 

 

 

As a pose to Christians constantly scaring people into having faith in a saviour? Or baptising children when the can't do anything into their religion when they may not wan't to be a part of it? Or maybe even going to war, on account of Gods name.

 

 

 

Ido not agree in war in anyway. You say Gods followers burn't all their possesions? Killed their wifes and children on Gods word? Such a nice God.

 

 

 

Don't hit me up with the greater good argument either

 

 

 

And along the baptising lines, its indoctrination, no different from the Hitler youth. If you are brought up your whole life surrounded by people who believe something and who want you the believe something, chances are you are going to believe it no matter what. At least Anabaptists give people the choice of whether they want to be baptised when they are adults instead of bringing them into the cult (and yes all beliefs and religions are cults) immediatly after birth.

[Godzira]

Even with the Anabaptists and Amish, who are given the right to choose later in life, the indoctrination combined with the guilt trips placed on those who do not join, still ensure that there is a religious control over those who are supposedly making the choice.

 

 

 

If you get the chance watch the documentary "Devil's Playground" about the Amish kids living in the real world before they make their choice. They usually go back, and just like an Anabaptist friend of mine when asked why they say "I don't want to go to hell". Not exactly a decision based on rationality.

[lameasses12]

I'm an agnostic. I believe just in case. If I believe, and it turns out I was wrong to do so when I die, I won't lose anything. If I don't believe and I'm wrong, that's trouble. It would be nice to know for sure though. All we need is someone to scientifically prove or disprove the existance of god or any divine being for that matter and we can stop guessing.

[MyPurpleCrayon]

I'm an agnostic. I believe just in case. If I believe, and it turns out I was wrong to do so when I die, I won't lose anything. If I don't believe and I'm wrong, that's trouble. It would be nice to know for sure though. All we need is someone to scientifically prove or disprove the existance of god or any divine being for that matter and we can stop guessing.

 

 

 

That's not at all what agnostic is.

 

Agnostics don't believe in anything, or they don't know what they believe in.

[Godzira]

I'm an agnostic. I believe just in case. If I believe, and it turns out I was wrong to do so when I die, I won't lose anything. If I don't believe and I'm wrong, that's trouble. It would be nice to know for sure though. All we need is someone to scientifically prove or disprove the existance of god or any divine being for that matter and we can stop guessing.

 

 

 

 

 

That's not agnostic, that's most christians.

[imhomer]

I'm an agnostic. I believe just in case. If I believe, and it turns out I was wrong to do so when I die, I won't lose anything. If I don't believe and I'm wrong, that's trouble. It would be nice to know for sure though. All we need is someone to scientifically prove or disprove the existance of god or any divine being for that matter and we can stop guessing.

 

 

 

That's not at all what agnostic is.

 

Agnostics don't believe in anything, or they don't know what they believe in.

 

 

 

Atheist is not believing in anything, agnostic is practicing many religions or the underlying priciples of religion without committing to one specfic religion. It's the sort of 'on the fence' idea.

[Guest GhostRanger]

I'm an agnostic. I believe just in case. If I believe, and it turns out I was wrong to do so when I die, I won't lose anything. If I don't believe and I'm wrong, that's trouble. It would be nice to know for sure though. All we need is someone to scientifically prove or disprove the existance of god or any divine being for that matter and we can stop guessing.

 

 

 

That's not at all what agnostic is.

 

Agnostics don't believe in anything, or they don't know what they believe in.

 

 

 

Atheist is not believing in anything, agnostic is practicing many religions or the underlying priciples of religion without committing to one specfic religion. It's the sort of 'on the fence' idea.

 

 

 

No. Agnostic is not knowing what you believe.

 

 

 

1.

 

1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

 

2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

 

2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

 

 

 

 

Agnostics don't try and practice multiple religions and they don't try to believe something just to get into Heaven.

[logic-is-overrated]

*edit* ^^He said it.^^

[pianofrieak2]

I'm an agnostic. I believe just in case. If I believe, and it turns out I was wrong to do so when I die, I won't lose anything. If I don't believe and I'm wrong, that's trouble. It would be nice to know for sure though. All we need is someone to scientifically prove or disprove the existance of god or any divine being for that matter and we can stop guessing.

 

 

 

 

 

That's not agnostic, that's most christians.

 

 

 

Lol, how true.

 

 

 

And how terribly sad... :(

[logic-is-overrated]

I have questions about hell. First off, why? As humans we are only capable of finite sins. Yet, we will receive infinite punishment. To quote ebonmusings (a favorite website of mine):

 

Imagine how much hatred you would have to have for another person to take his hand and press it against a hot stove, and hold it there while he struggles and screams in pain. Now imagine, not just burning a person's hand, but setting his entire body on fire; and now imagine doing it not just for a few moments, not for hours or days or years or millennia, but forever; and now imagine tormenting not just one, but thousands, millions, billions of people like this, inflicting on each and every one of them a suffering beyond imagination or description, for every single instant without rest or relief throughout all the endless span of eternity. And this is the work of a good god?

I just cannot see how any positive attribute can be applied to something that will punish its creations for ever, and ever, and ever, and ever; especially when they're only alive for 50-80 years. Infinite punishment for finite sins-why?

 

 

 

Another question. Do all people who go to hell receive the same sort of punishment? I'm not just talking about people who were "worse" or more "morally corrupt". I'm talking about the fact that some people just have more reason to believe. Take for example, the people who lived with Jesus while he walked the Earth and other people in the Bible. They supposedly saw people raised from the dead, severed limbs magically healed, blind people being able to see, leprosy healed, fireballs raining from the sky destroying cities, entire seas being magically separated, the various plagues, etc. Today, we have a book that is thousands of years old, plagued by various copy and translation errors and I personally have not heard of any varifiable miracles occuring any time recently (if you have please point me to them). My question is, does somebody who saw Jesus healing severed limbs and raising the dead and yet still denied him, suffer the same punishment as somebody now who denies him even though the amount of evidence for the two is completely lopsided? How about a missionary who goes to visit a friend in Africa for a week. While in Africa he meets somebody who has never heard the word of God. For the week he's there he tries to convince the African to believe and the African says no (which he more than likely would since somebody he has never met is trying to convince him to believe in something he has never heard of). Now, that African has been exposed to the gospel, has been offered the choice to accept Jesus, and refused. Is he going to hell? Even though he has been exposed to it for only a week and he has had no prior knowledge of it?

[pianofrieak2]

I have questions about hell. First off, why? As humans we are only capable of finite sins. Yet, we will receive infinite punishment. To quote ebonmusings (a favorite website of mine):

 

Imagine how much hatred you would have to have for another person to take his hand and press it against a hot stove, and hold it there while he struggles and screams in pain. Now imagine, not just burning a person's hand, but setting his entire body on fire; and now imagine doing it not just for a few moments, not for hours or days or years or millennia, but forever; and now imagine tormenting not just one, but thousands, millions, billions of people like this, inflicting on each and every one of them a suffering beyond imagination or description, for every single instant without rest or relief throughout all the endless span of eternity. And this is the work of a good god?

I just cannot see how any positive attribute can be applied to something that will punish its creations for ever, and ever, and ever, and ever; especially when they're only alive for 50-80 years. Infinite punishment for finite sins-why?

 

 

 

Another question. Do all people who go to hell receive the same sort of punishment? I'm not just talking about people who were "worse" or more "morally corrupt". I'm talking about the fact that some people just have more reason to believe. Take for example, the people who lived with Jesus while he walked the Earth and other people in the Bible. They supposedly saw people raised from the dead, severed limbs magically healed, blind people being able to see, leprosy healed, fireballs raining from the sky destroying cities, entire seas being magically separated, the various plagues, etc. Today, we have a book that is thousands of years old, plagued by various copy and translation errors and I personally have not heard of any varifiable miracles occuring any time recently (if you have please point me to them). My question is, does somebody who saw Jesus healing severed limbs and raising the dead and yet still denied him, suffer the same punishment as somebody now who denies him even though the amount of evidence for the two is completely lopsided? How about a missionary who goes to visit a friend in Africa for a week. While in Africa he meets somebody who has never heard the word of God. For the week he's there he tries to convince the African to believe and the African says no (which he more than likely would since somebody he has never met is trying to convince him to believe in something he has never heard of). Now, that African has been exposed to the gospel, has been offered the choice to accept Jesus, and refused. Is he going to hell? Even though he has been exposed to it for only a week and he has had no prior knowledge of it?

 

 

 

Answer me this: How can a perfect, holy, blameless God be in the same presence as a filthy, dirty, sinful person and not lose His holiness.

 

 

 

As for the African missionary: the Bible says that all have knowledge of God through nature. As far as the question of WHICH God, I'm sure God in His loving mercy will somehow make it fair.

[logic-is-overrated]

Answer me this: How can a perfect, holy, blameless God be in the same presence as a filthy, dirty, sinful person and not lose His holiness?

I'm assuming the answer you want is, he can't. So okay-he can't. That still doesn't answer this question: Infinite punishment for finite sins-why? Are you telling me the only way to deal with sinners is to torture them for all eternity?

[insane]

I have questions about hell. First off, why? As humans we are only capable of finite sins. Yet, we will receive infinite punishment. To quote ebonmusings (a favorite website of mine):

 

Imagine how much hatred you would have to have for another person to take his hand and press it against a hot stove, and hold it there while he struggles and screams in pain. Now imagine, not just burning a person's hand, but setting his entire body on fire; and now imagine doing it not just for a few moments, not for hours or days or years or millennia, but forever; and now imagine tormenting not just one, but thousands, millions, billions of people like this, inflicting on each and every one of them a suffering beyond imagination or description, for every single instant without rest or relief throughout all the endless span of eternity. And this is the work of a good god?

I just cannot see how any positive attribute can be applied to something that will punish its creations for ever, and ever, and ever, and ever; especially when they're only alive for 50-80 years. Infinite punishment for finite sins-why?

 

 

 

I believe it is the heart behind the choice - saying no to God is saying "I can do life on my own" - the whole message of Christianity is "I can't do life on my own, I need God" - and this independent attitude is what God so strongly dislikes, or hates, if you will.

 

 

 

All of this "It's my life, I can do what I want", i believe is coming from a selfish and flawed mindset - if God exists, and Christianity is true, then it's not *your* life - God is creator, and you belong to Him whether you like it or not.

 

 

 

And just like aerodynamics can be applied incorrectly, so can free will, so can Christianity. Just like there are bad Christians, there are bad choices.

 

 

 

So if you dislike God, you do not choose Him - that is what the definition of "hell" is... seperation from God - so you're getting exactly what you want, if you choose *not* God during your life on earth - you're choosing *not* God for after - all of this physical pain and suffering is located in the book of Revelation and that is most likely the most symbolic book in the Bible; the point of hell is not pain and suffering, the point of hell is "not God", the exact thing you are choosing here on earth by rejecting Him.

 

 

 

So I don't think it is fair for atheists who think they should be able to choose *not* God - and then find it unfair when that's what they get after life - to expect God to put them in heaven (which by defintion, is the presence of God - the very thing an anti-Christian would abhorr); this seems ludicrous to me.

[Astralinre]

Logic, you raise some good points. My answer to the finite sin/infinite punishment is this: There is no such thing as a finite sin. Every sin we commit is an offense against an infinite God, thus making it an offense of infinite gravity. That is also why only Jesus, God in the flesh, could pay the penalty for our sins. It took infinite atonement to pay the price for our infinite sins against an infinite God.

 

 

 

As to your point of how a good God can punish His creations like that, I would say that He is merely giving them what they want. They have rejected Him, so why would He force them to spend eternity with Him? They want to be their own gods, so He lets them. And since God is the source of all good things, including happiness, those who rejected Him are left with nothing but infinite misery.

 

 

 

As far as I know, people could have different degrees of pain in Hell (see Dante's Inferno), but I do believe that not one of them will have a bit of joy, since they chose to be cut off from Joy Himself.

[logic-is-overrated]

I believe it is the heart behind the choice - saying no to God is saying "I can do life on my own" - the whole message of Christianity is "I can't do life on my own, I need God" - and this independent attitude is what God so strongly dislikes, or hates, if you will.

 

 

 

All of this "It's my life, I can do what I want", i believe is coming from a selfish and flawed mindset - if God exists, and Christianity is true, then it's not *your* life - God is creator, and you belong to Him whether you like it or not.

I don't agree with this. I am not an atheist because I'm selfish, abhor authority, or want to live a carefree life. I am an atheist because I research, and I research, and I read, and I study and the more I learn, the more absurd Christianity seems to me and the harder it gets for me to believe it. I understand all religion takes a leap of faith, everything does. I just have yet to find any reason to take that leap.

 

 

 

So if you dislike God, you do not choose Him - that is what the definition of "hell" is... seperation from God - so you're getting exactly what you want, if you choose *not* God during your life on earth - you're choosing *not* God for after - all of this physical pain and suffering is located in the book of Revelation and that is most likely the most symbolic book in the Bible; the point of hell is not pain and suffering, the point of hell is "not God", the exact thing you are choosing here on earth by rejecting Him.

 

 

 

So I don't think it is fair for atheists who think they should be able to choose *not* God - and then find it unfair when that's what they get after life - to expect God to put them in heaven (which by defintion, is the presence of God - the very thing an anti-Christian would abhorr); this seems ludicrous to me.

If you believe hell is simply being "cut off from God", okay, I could probably find that understandable. But the overwhelming majority of christians I know, have ever known, haven't ever known but heard them talk about it, believe hell is literal punishment; and it was to those people.

 

 

 

*edit*:

 

Logic, you raise some good points. My answer to the finite sin/infinite punishment is this: There is no such thing as a finite sin. Every sin we commit is an offense against an infinite God, thus making it an offense of infinite gravity. That is also why only Jesus, God in the flesh, could pay the penalty for our sins. It took infinite atonement to pay the price for our infinite sins against an infinite God.

What I'm having a hard time with is this: as an imperfect human with a finite mind, I can't even comprehend how long infinity is. I think about a million, billion, trillion years and that is an incredibly long time. Yet infinity is a million, billion, trillion times that and more. I can't even comprehend the punishment that I'm "supposedly" choosing yet somehow I deserve it.

 

 

 

As to your point of how a good God can punish His creations like that, I would say that He is merely giving them what they want. They have rejected Him, so why would He force them to spend eternity with Him? They want to be their own gods, so He lets them. And since God is the source of all good things, including happiness, those who rejected Him are left with nothing but infinite misery.

 

 

 

As far as I know, people could have different degrees of pain in Hell (see Dante's Inferno), but I do believe that not one of them will have a bit of joy, since they chose to be cut off from Joy Himself.

Again, I think you guys have a skewed perception of atheists. I reject God, not because I hate him or because I'm selfish, but because I find no reason not too. To the christian, maybe that counts as the same thing, but I don't think it is.

[Godzira]

I'm surprised that no one has pointed out that if god created man and man sins, than logic would follow that God is imperfect. He creates a universe giving man the capacity to sin and then is angered if we do? Sounds like god screwed up.

[Astralinre]

What I'm having a hard time with is this: as an imperfect human with a finite mind, I can't even comprehend how long infinity is. I think about a million, billion, trillion years and that is an incredibly long time. Yet infinity is a million, billion, trillion times that and more. I can't even comprehend the punishment that I'm "supposedly" choosing yet somehow I deserve it.

 

 

 

To be honest, I can't comprehend eternity any more than you can. I can't comprehend spending forever in God's presence. I can't comprehend spending forever completely cut off from Him. But simply because we cannot understand how long infinity is does not mean that our actions are not of infinite gravity.

 

 

 

Again, I think you guys have a skewed perception of atheists. I reject God, not because I him or because I'm selfish, but because I find no reason not too. To the christian, maybe that counts as the same thing, but I don't think it is.

 

 

 

Regardless of your personal reason for doing so, rejecting God is rejecting God. Whether it's because of pride or simply intellectual skepticism, why would God give you Heaven when you have rejected the very one who makes Heaven what it is?

[bull912000]

I have questions about hell. First off, why? As humans we are only capable of finite sins. Yet, we will receive infinite punishment.

 

 

 

Well, sin is finit.... exept for one. That is not putting your faith in Jesus and trusting him as your savior. And without Jesus (the only way to heaven), you are doomed to hell for eternity. It is not the physical pain in hell that is the worst part, but it is the absince of God.

 

 

 

I view it like this. The purpose of life is to gloriefy god. However, man can not be with god if he is unpure, and if he sends us straight to heaven, it is like the cat I talked about a few pages back: No matter how hard you hug it, there is no way to make it love you back. So, God make a test or filter: earth. This is where he also (IN MY BELEIFS) creates evil (including satin). With evil in the world, there is only one way out, by trusting him to take you out of it. Who else would if you didn't trust him? He is the only thing that can. However, since impure can't be with pure, he can not save you without you being pure. This is why one sin can lead to eternity in hell.

 

 

 

I'm surprised that no one has pointed out that if god created man and man sins, than logic would follow that God is imperfect. He creates a universe giving man the capacity to sin and then is angered if we do? Sounds like god screwed up.

 

 

 

True, God created man, but man CHOSE to sin. Even though he created evil (IN MY BELIEF) he created it to be the filter between the christians and non-christains. This goes back to the part above.

 

 

 

Do all people who go to hell receive the same sort of punishment? I'm not just talking about people who were "worse" or more "morally corrupt". I'm talking about the fact that some people just have more reason to believe. Take for example, the people who lived with Jesus while he walked the Earth and other people in the Bible. They supposedly saw people raised from the dead, severed limbs magically healed, blind people being able to see, leprosy healed, fireballs raining from the sky destroying cities, entire seas being magically separated, the various plagues, etc. Today, we have a book that is thousands of years old, plagued by various copy and translation errors and I personally have not heard of any varifiable miracles occuring any time recently (if you have please point me to them). My question is, does somebody who saw Jesus healing severed limbs and raising the dead and yet still denied him, suffer the same punishment as somebody now who denies him even though the amount of evidence for the two is completely lopsided?

 

 

 

 

 

Well, are all sins equal? Yes. And with this statement, I believe that if one person commits one sin and the other 1,000,000; they get the same punishment. On the same note, (and one of the most amazing things I can think of) is that even the worst person in the world can go to heaven if he as Jesus to forgive his sins.

 

 

 

I am Christian, I believe in God and the Afterlife but I do not believe the Bible stories. I take them as metaphors on how your life should be lived not as facts. The only story I do not doubt is the tale of Jesus and the resurrecton. I don't know why but to me it rings true. Science can throw anything they want at the story, I will still believe.

 

 

 

Personally, I believe that alot more stories in the bible are metiphors, but there are some that just have to be true. The entire set of gospils, for example, is true to me. If it were just a story, it would take away the entire purpose of christianity. The story of Job-true. I have looked at them and this story seems to still be happening all the time.

 

Which brings me to my question. You want some type of verifiable data - it's a very Western way of thinking and makes sense. My question is - what kind of data? What evidence are you searching for that you find contradictions to?

 

1.)Let me now explain what I mean by evidence. I don't consider internal, personal experiences to be evidence. I used to be a christian. I used to get those "experiences" in church (the moments where it feels like the Lord is talking to your heart and things like that). But I've had the same kind of euphoric moments in other positive, uplifiting situations surrounded by people that I care for. The other reasons being most people who have those "experiences" are already solidly grounded in their faith and routinely convince themselves that the evidence supports their beliefs (such as convincing themselves that anything they feel during church, or any other time for that matter, is due to God and not to anything else). And the other reason is pretty obvious: personal feelings can't be proved to anybody else besides the person experiencing them.

 

 

 

2.)I also don't consider the Bible to be evidence. As you've agreed with, the Bible is not a history book and I believe its supernatural elements require faith at the least.

 

 

 

3.)What I want to know is why should I, the layman, accept christianity as true and not any other religion, or not any religion at all? Archeaological, historical, scientific, etc. Like I said before, all religion requires a leap of faith. What I want to know is why should anybody make that leap of faith?

 

 

 

1.)If you do not consider the internal experiance to be evidence, than the whole christion religion is just like the others. This experiance is being in contact with God and releife of your sins. "But you don't know that it is contact with god". If you have ever felt it before, you would know that it is contact with god.

[bull912000]

2).2).Now, I am probably the only person who will say this, but some of the TV explinations are logical and possible. For instance, I do not believe that noahs ark was shorter than the bible says, iit says how long it was, but I do beleive that the rain was not literal rain, but the mountains beween the medeteranian sea and the present day black se giving way (like a dam bust)

 

3).Let me go back to one of my earlier statements. If you are trying to cross a gap that is too larg to jump accross yet there is a rope to be able to swing on to get accross; you would much rather swing accross the rope than jump accross youself.

[bull912000]

to the mod who hopefully deletes this. Does locking threads/ deleting posts go onto any kind of personal record?

[bull912000]

I appologieze with the um..... quadripal post. I am having trouble trying to make a single post, but...

 

1), i accidentaly clicked quoat instead of edit

 

2.) space did not allow me to continue

 

3.) I was on make new post when I was trying to edit and didn't know it.

 

 

 

Again, I appologize for this

[Godzira]

 

I'm surprised that no one has pointed out that if god created man and man sins, than logic would follow that God is imperfect. He creates a universe giving man the capacity to sin and then is angered if we do? Sounds like god screwed up.

 

 

 

True, God created man, but man CHOSE to sin. Even though he created evil (IN MY BELIEF) he created it to be the filter between the christians and non-christains. This goes back to the part above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It still doesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t answer the question. If god gave man the capacity to choose sin, god shouldnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t punish man for acting the way that he was made too. If god really existed and really cared that man believed in him, he would either make man unable to choose otherwise, or make his presence known. If he doesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t do these things he can only blame himself for mans choice.

[bull912000]

This is the one part of this that I don't understand, but I know for a fact that

 

1.) God exists

 

2.) Man has freedom of choice.

[Godzira]

This is the one part of this that I don't understand, but I know for a fact that

 

1.) God exists

 

2.) Man has freedom of choice.

 

 

 

 

 

I think this should read:

 

This is the one part of this that I don't understand, but I know for a fact that

 

1.) I feel very strongly that God exists

 

2.) Man has freedom of choice

 

 

 

Saying that the existence of God is a fact is a great overstatement no matter how deeply you believe in him. A fact means that it is the truth with substantial evidence. No matter how true you feel it to be, there is a lack of evidence.