Do YOU believe in God?

[Anesthesia]

Destiny implies one simple preordained path, almost a story of your life.

 

 

 

Predeterminism implies that all your choices are a result of past experiences and interactions - therefore it would be impossible to choose the 'wrong' one.

 

 

 

I was referring to the predeterminist idea of human thought, as that's what he was talking about. Destiny is one set story for everyone which you're just playing along right from the start, predeterminism is each decision being calculated in real time but based on factors that will only allow it one outcome.

[pianofrieak2]

It is impossible for god, as he is defined by living humans, to be good. He already has knowledge of who will go to heaven and who will go to hell, so the only way that he would be good is if he unconditionally accepted everyone into heaven, regardless of any requirements. Obviously, this is an unreasonable suggestion. Hence, our human definitions of god are wrong.

 

 

 

Unless your view of "good" is wrong.

 

 

 

Your whole argument of God being good is flawed. You say if God was "good" that he would let everyone into heaven. Actually that's wrong.

 

 

 

If God was good, then He would be just. Because God is just, only the perfect (sinless) people can get into heaven. Therefore, God IS good by refusing the imperfect into heaven.

 

 

 

 

 

You're mixing two different ideas. Just because God knows what's going to happen, doesn't DISCOUNT the idea that you are still choosing. He might know what choices you are going to make, but you are still making the choices. His knowledge doesn't determine destiny, it's only the knowledge of what will happen.

 

 

 

If he knows what choices I am going to make before I make them, then what free will do I have?

 

 

 

Again, what does foreknowledge have to do with the future? You guys totally missed Ghost's comment. He said that you are STILL MAKING THE CHOICE EVEN THOUGH GOD KNOWS WHAT THE CHOICE WILL BE.

 

 

 

Altering the future, destiny, etc. are all meaningless because you are still making the choice. As long as you are making the choice, you have free will.

 

 

 

 

Also, Christianity is like the most hated religion so trying to explain it to people is trying to explain how the sun gets its energy to a mentally mentally challenged person.

 

 

 

No, a mentally challenged person has no capability to understand how the sun works. In contrast, an atheist or agnostic does have the capability to believe in Christianity. The problem is that one cannot believe in something until its internal, illogical convolutions (e.g. predestination) has been sorted out. Of course, that is not likely to happen because religion, unlike science, refuses to modify and improve itself.

 

 

 

Truth has no need to "modify itself."

 

 

 

 

Or "Why should I go to your religion over others?"

 

Why should I?

 

That question has never been answered by any religion. I know that some religions are different from others, but I do not know which one is correct.

 

 

 

bear, the atheist is the one who must defend his religion. The Christian has no need because if he is wrong, he still wins. Whereas the atheist has the most to lose. You are the one who must defend your side, not the Christian.

 

:wink:

[Anesthesia]

That last one is on the same level as sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalala". I've already discounted it with my post on Pascal's Wager.

[enzeru]

I beleave in god. I also take a lot of things on faith alone.

[bearofthunder]

 

bear, the atheist is the one who must defend his religion. The Christian has no need because if he is wrong, he still wins. Whereas the atheist has the most to lose. You are the one who must defend your side, not the Christian.

 

 

 

I agree. The atheist has the most to lose. He has a 0/100 probability of winning, while a you have a 1/100 probability of winning, assuming there are 100 total denominations, each with varying requirements for getting into heaven. It would be wise for him to abandon his ways and follow the right denomination of the right religion. Therefore, I ask you again, which religion is the right one?

 

 

 

Again, what does foreknowledge have to do with the future? You guys totally missed Ghost's comment. He said that you are STILL MAKING THE CHOICE EVEN THOUGH GOD KNOWS WHAT THE CHOICE WILL BE.

 

 

 

Altering the future, destiny, etc. are all meaningless because you are still making the choice. As long as you are making the choice, you have free will

 

...

 

If God was good, then He would be just. Because God is just, only the perfect (sinless) people can get into heaven. Therefore, God IS good by refusing the imperfect into heaven..

 

 

 

God created the universe. In doing so, he created Bob and knew he would ulimately be a Hindu. In the year 2000, Bob is born. In 2070 Bob dies and goes to hell. Did Bob have free will to try and get to heaven? Who is responsible?

 

 

 

Foreknowledge = Future.

[CoRnMaN]

 

bear, the atheist is the one who must defend his religion. The Christian has no need because if he is wrong, he still wins. Whereas the atheist has the most to lose. You are the one who must defend your side, not the Christian.

 

 

 

I agree. The atheist has the most to lose. He has a 0/100 probability of winning, while a you have a 1/100 probability of winning, assuming there are 100 total denominations, each with varying requirements for getting into heaven. It would be wise for him to abandon his ways and follow the right denomination of the right religion. Therefore, I ask you again, which religion is the right one?

 

 

 

Again, what does foreknowledge have to do with the future? You guys totally missed Ghost's comment. He said that you are STILL MAKING THE CHOICE EVEN THOUGH GOD KNOWS WHAT THE CHOICE WILL BE.

 

 

 

Altering the future, destiny, etc. are all meaningless because you are still making the choice. As long as you are making the choice, you have free will

 

...

 

If God was good, then He would be just. Because God is just, only the perfect (sinless) people can get into heaven. Therefore, God IS good by refusing the imperfect into heaven..

 

 

 

God created the universe. In doing so, he created Bob and knew he would ulimately be a Hindu. In the year 2000, Bob is born. In 2070 Bob dies and goes to hell. Did Bob have free will to try and get to heaven? Who is responsible?

 

 

 

Foreknowledge = Future.

God is omnipotent. That means he knows all.

 

 

 

Someone gets behind a wheel drunk. You know that the bridge he is going to try to cross is out. You know he is going to die. Who is responsible? Let's say you tell your friend this but he dosn't listen to you. Now who is responsible?

 

 

 

God created the universe. In doing so, he created Bob and knew he would ulimately choose to be a Hindu. In the year 2000, Bob is born. In the year 2009 God reveals himself to Bob threw the Bible. 2070 Bob dies and goes to hell. Did Bob have a free will to try and get to heaven? Who is responsible?

 

 

 

I can't choose for you. You are the only one that can choose. If there was an answer that no-one doubted there would be no free will. So it is impossible to have an answer, but in truth there are multiple answers. If there was only one answer there wouldn't be free will. You just have to choose between heaven and hell.

 

 

 

"People claim that free will is an illusion. But some philospers argue that reality is an illusion. Just accept reality and make a choice." (<-Read that a couple of times. For my sake.)

[bearofthunder]

 

 

 

Someone gets behind a wheel drunk. You know that the bridge he is going to try to cross is out. You know he is going to die. Who is responsible? Let's say you tell your friend this but he dosn't listen to you. Now who is responsible?

 

 

 

But you're not the maker of your friend, so you can't be held responsible. Let's say his mother gave birth to him with the knowledge that he will one day get drunk and die. Once again, I ask. Who is responsible?

[CoRnMaN]

 

 

 

Someone gets behind a wheel drunk. You know that the bridge he is going to try to cross is out. You know he is going to die. Who is responsible? Let's say you tell your friend this but he dosn't listen to you. Now who is responsible?

 

 

 

But you're not the maker of your friend, so you can't be held responsible. Let's say his mother gave birth to him with the knowledge that he will one day get drunk and die. Once again, I ask. Who is responsible?

I fail to see the argument you are trying to prove. He is drunk becuase he chooses to be.

 

 

 

People understand getting into college. To get into college you need to do your work. If you don't pass your classes you don't get your degree.

 

 

 

How is heaven any different? If you don't make good choices you won't get your 'degree'.

 

 

 

Is it the teachers fault if you don't study and fail? Is it God's fault if you don't believe and go to hell?

[bearofthunder]

 

 

 

Someone gets behind a wheel drunk. You know that the bridge he is going to try to cross is out. You know he is going to die. Who is responsible? Let's say you tell your friend this but he dosn't listen to you. Now who is responsible?

 

 

 

But you're not the maker of your friend, so you can't be held responsible. Let's say his mother gave birth to him with the knowledge that he will one day get drunk and die. Once again, I ask. Who is responsible?

I fail to see the argument you are trying to prove. He is drunk becuase he chooses to be.

 

 

 

You need to go back one page to see why we started this:

 

 

 

If he knows what choices I am going to make before I make them, then what free will do I have?

 

It is impossible for god, as he is defined by living humans, to be good. He already has knowledge of who will go to heaven and who will go to hell, so the only way that he would be good is if he unconditionally accepted everyone into heaven, regardless of any requirements. Obviously, this is an unreasonable suggestion. Hence, our human definitions of god are wrong.

 

 

 

 

and my example of that was:

 

 

 

God created the universe. In doing so, he created Bob and knew he would ulimately be a Hindu. In the year 2000, Bob is born. In 2070 Bob dies and goes to hell. Did Bob have free will to try and get to heaven? Who is responsible?

 

 

 

In other words, god cannot claim to be good because he is implicit in the creation of people that he knows will go to hell. Similarly, if your friend's mother was a psychic who claimed to be "against people who die from drunk driving," (this sounds absurd, but I have to modify your example because it missed the mark) then she would be hypocritical if she gave birth to her son knowing (she's a psychic) that he would one day die from drunk driving.

[pianofrieak2]

Wow, I'm still surprised at my remark about the goodness of God. Yay!

 

 

 

 

bear, the atheist is the one who must defend his religion. The Christian has no need because if he is wrong, he still wins. Whereas the atheist has the most to lose. You are the one who must defend your side, not the Christian.

 

 

 

I agree. The atheist has the most to lose. He has a 0/100 probability of winning, while a you have a 1/100 probability of winning, assuming there are 100 total denominations, each with varying requirements for getting into heaven. It would be wise for him to abandon his ways and follow the right denomination of the right religion. Therefore, I ask you again, which religion is the right one?

 

 

 

Bear, if you really care about finding out which religion is the right one, why do you keep arguing? Seriously. If you DID care, you would see what we have to say, do some outside research, and then find out.

 

 

 

Instead of just arguing with us to argue and then asking us why we can't convince you, why don't you actually do what you say. Do some outside research and ask questions when they arise.

 

 

 

 

 

Your next example is actually really good. Let me explain it to you (since you're probably oh-so eager to hear what I have to say)

 

 

 

 

 

 

God created the universe. Yes. I agree.

 

God created Bob after he created everyone else. No. I disagree.

 

 

 

And that's where you're flawed. You are assuming that God creates everyone at different times, when, in reality, you haven't taken the option that God created everyone at the same time but puts their spirits in the bodies at the differing times of conception.

 

 

 

Yes, God knew Bob would be a Hindu. God knew Bob would be brought up in the lifestyle he was in and then he would eventually go to hell. God's foreknowledge demands this.

 

 

 

However, Bob still had a choice. Bob could have accepted Jesus as his Savior, but he didn't. God knew he wouldn't, but Bob still had to face the situation and deny God. Bob is responsible for his own actions.

 

 

 

And his actions have consequences. God's knowledge does not affect one's choice.

[bearofthunder]

 

Bear, if you really care about finding out which religion is the right one, why do you keep arguing? Seriously. If you DID care, you would see what we have to say, do some outside research, and then find out.

 

 

 

Instead of just arguing with us to argue and then asking us why we can't convince you, why don't you actually do what you say. Do some outside research and ask questions when they arise.

 

 

 

 

I have done a lot of outside research (I hope you can tell from my previous posts about the bible and other things), and that question arose from my research. I asked it seriously, not just to be argumentative: Which religion do I choose?

 

 

 

 

God created the universe. Yes. I agree.

 

God created Bob after he created everyone else. No. I disagree.

 

 

 

And that's where you're flawed. You are assuming that God creates everyone at different times, when, in reality, you haven't taken the option that God created everyone at the same time but puts their spirits in the bodies at the differing times of conception.

 

 

 

Yes, God knew Bob would be a Hindu. God knew Bob would be brought up in the lifestyle he was in and then he would eventually go to hell. God's foreknowledge demands this.

 

 

 

However, Bob still had a choice. Bob could have accepted Jesus as his Savior, but he didn't. God knew he wouldn't, but Bob still had to face the situation and deny God. Bob is responsible for his own actions.

 

 

 

And his actions have consequences. God's knowledge does not affect one's choice.

 

 

 

I never said god creates everyone at different times. In fact, in my example, I assume, like you, that everyone was created at the same time when god made the universe.

 

 

 

Yes, Bob himself decided to become a Hindu, but there is a problem:

 

- God knew Bob would become a Hindu when he made the universe. So, in essence, he made Bob a Hindu by allowing for his creation.

[pianofrieak2]

I felt meesa's post was appropriate so let me put it here.

 

 

 

There are several religion topics on this thread. I think most of you are familiar with what the "Bible" and who "Jesus" and "God" is and are. But, lets start from the beginning.

 

 

 

Basic view of God:

 

 

 

God is the creator of this world. The creator of whole universe. He was around before the world. He was around before time. He created time, and because of that, was here before time. He created everything, hence he was here before everything.

 

 

 

The form of God:

 

 

 

God is a trinity, meaning he has three forms, yet all three forms are the same being. The Father, who is most oftenly meant when the name "God" is used, the Son, who is God's son, yet the Son is still part of God, being one of the three beings, and the last is the Holy Spirit, who lives inside of me, all Christians, and works in you and I, whether you are a Christian or not. (let me just say here that the Holy Spirit replaces the conscience when one becomes saved...the conscience can yell and scream at the smallest things and yet remain silent in the face of unspeakable evil. it can be suppressed and eventually become silent if one's heart becomes perverse)

 

 

 

Jesus as human and God:

 

 

 

So Jesus is the Son of God, yet remember, he is still fully God. While on earth, he was fully God and fully man. Call it a divine mystery or whatever you want, but that is what I believe (and what is true).

 

 

 

View of the Bible:

 

 

 

The Bible is the word of God. God gave us commandments to go and make disciples of the nations, and gave us the Bible as a tool. The Bible is holy, and not to be altered in any way. It is the word of God. (the Bible is the inerrant, which is perfect with no mistakes, word of God which teaches us how to live our lives. It can be summed up in 4 words: Love God; Love people.)

 

 

 

Heaven:

 

 

 

Heaven and Hell are also talked about a lot. In short, heaven will be a wonderfull place. Think of all the joys of this world, multiply them by 10, and that will still be a small taste of heaven. Heaven will be "a new heaven and a new earth". This world will be the same, just much better. No pain, no suffering, no death. And it will last forever. Anything you have ever wanted to do, you will be able to do in heaven.

 

 

 

Hell:

 

 

 

Hell is the oposite. I often imagine hell as a massive red fire ball, with me suspended in the middle. My hands and feet are bound, I am stripped naked. Imagine your worst thirst ever... square it. Then square it again. and again. No matter how much pain you feel, it gets worse the next second. And it never ends.

 

 

 

Hell is not a "dirty" place where you get drunk, play cards, and do other "dirty" stuff. It is pure misery. (I'm not sure how accurate his view is but the point is that you are separated from all goodness. Gnashing of teeth, fire and brimstone, etc. as described in the Bible).

 

 

 

Sin:

 

 

 

Sin should also be defined. We are all sinners. Now, you do not just sin when you lie. You sin in everything you do. Why? Becuase of the first man and the first woman God created. God created us to live with him, be perfect, and enjoy him forever. But, when man fell, we were forever seperated from God. This was God's plan too - man's fall did not cause havoc in God's plan. God is always in control, and will forever be in control. You can read about the fall in the Bible - look in the book of Genesis, chapter 3. It may be a good idea to read chapters 1 and 2 also (very beginning of the Bible, it gives the creation story) to get an idea of what is going on.

 

 

 

Sin Nature:

 

 

 

So why do we sin in everything we do? Because when man fell, every desendant after him was doomed to an eternity in hell. In everything we do, we sin. This is often called "sin nature". There is much more to it, but this will have to suffice for now. (One's sin nature is the tendency for man to do evil...you can see this where man has no rules or guidelines like Stalin, Hitler, and other men who had no rules over them. This spawned the saying "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely").

 

 

 

Those are the very basics. Now what is Christianity, really?

 

 

 

Are we a group of people, trying to find out what happened, how we got here? No.

 

 

 

Are we a group of "good people", trying to show the rest of the world how good we are? No.

 

 

 

Are we our own sub-culture? Are we a lifestyle, like a diet? No.

 

 

 

What are Christians:

 

 

 

What are we?

 

We are just like you. We are sinners, we have the same problems as you... lust, sexual temptations, hate, envy, greed, pride, you name it. Yet there is something different. We have God. He came to save us by dieing on the cross, sacrificing his life for us, and all we do is trust in him, accept his mercy and grace. We also try to follow his commands. Since we are still sinners, it is not possible to follow every single one, every single time. But we strive to follow him. We do not strive for good works. We were saved by grace alone, not through works. That in itself is a comfort to me, I do not have to be perfect to go to heaven, all I have to do is trust in him.

 

 

 

We are not a group of Bible-thumping goody-goody-pants. We are not the moral police patrol. We do not try to set ourselves apart from the world. We are called to be in the world, yet not of the world.

 

 

 

Just so all you know, my comments are underlined, important statements or subheadings are in bold, included by me).

 

 

 

BTW, anesthesia, I wasn't talking about Pascal's Wager. I disagree with it too, but its basic conclusion remains the same. The atheist has the most to lose whereas the Christian loses nothing if they're wrong.

 

 

 

Surely you can't disagree with that statement.

[bearofthunder]

The atheist has the most to lose whereas the Christian loses nothing if they're wrong.

 

 

 

Surely you can't disagree with that statement.

 

 

 

Well, if god turns out to be Muslim or something, we'll be in the same boat...

 

 

 

 

 

headed for the River Styx.

[Riku3220]

im a halfer kind believe kinda dont

 

 

 

but if if he does truly exist i think there is a giant wheel you get to spin in the next 50 years in heaven or heck and what it spins on is what you reincarnate into that thing just hope i dont get grss

[MyPurpleCrayon]

Wow, I must say... I am now dumber after reading that.

[insane]

 

 

 

Someone gets behind a wheel drunk. You know that the bridge he is going to try to cross is out. You know he is going to die. Who is responsible? Let's say you tell your friend this but he dosn't listen to you. Now who is responsible?

 

 

 

But you're not the maker of your friend, so you can't be held responsible. Let's say his mother gave birth to him with the knowledge that he will one day get drunk and die. Once again, I ask. Who is responsible?

 

 

 

The guy who chooses to drink and get behind the wheel.

 

 

 

If a psychic predicts that I will marry Jeanie, and I end up marrying Jeanie, and my marriage sucks, do I blame the psychic? Of course not, foreknowledge is not the same as determinism. Just because God knows it will happen does not mean that God caused it to happen.

[bearofthunder]

 

Just because God knows it will happen does not mean that God caused it to happen.

 

 

 

God caused it by creating it. He created non-Christians when he created the universe. Therefore, he caused them to go to hell.

 

 

 

But that's not the problem.

 

 

 

The problem is that god claims to be good, so either he is hypocritical, or our notions of heaven/hell/god are inaccurate.

 

 

 

 

If a psychic predicts that I will marry Jeanie, and I end up marrying Jeanie, and my marriage sucks, do I blame the psychic?

 

Your example doesn't really work because the psychic didn't create you. Nor does the psychic claim to be against bad marriages.

[Guest GhostRanger]

 

Just because God knows it will happen does not mean that God caused it to happen.

 

 

 

God caused it by creating it. He created non-Christians when he created the universe. Therefore, he caused them to go to hell.

 

 

 

But that's not the problem.

 

 

 

The problem is that god claims to be good, so either he is hypocritical, or our notions of heaven/hell/god are inaccurate.

 

 

 

He didn't create non-Christians. He created people and gave them free choice. That's like saying that if you built a bridge and let people drive over it, and they decided to drive off the bridge, you caused their death.

[pianofrieak2]

 

Just because God knows it will happen does not mean that God caused it to happen.

 

 

 

God caused it by creating it. He created non-Christians when he created the universe. Therefore, he caused them to go to hell.

 

 

 

But that's not the problem.

 

 

 

The problem is that god claims to be good, so either he is hypocritical, or our notions of heaven/hell/god are inaccurate.

 

 

 

Good gosh, Ghost has answered this question NUMEROUS TIMES. God knowing what is going to happen does not mean you DID NOT MAKE THE CONSCIOUS DECISION NOT TO BELIEVE.

 

 

 

I've already addressed your second question. You keep throwing the word "good" around when you aren't really thinking about what "good" is.

 

 

 

How do you know what good is? What's your standard?

 

 

 

Now, I'll wait and see what your answer is, but let me readress my question. God is good. He is everything good. But God is also just. Therefore, anything just is automatically good.

 

 

 

Because everything just is good, there must be a reward for the good and the bad actions. This is called heaven and hell. The FIRST good one can make is to enter into the covenant between the Father and the Son which cleanses one from all sin (past, present, and future). Questions? See topic by meesa.

 

 

 

Now that one is perfect in the eyes of God, one can enter heaven. Those who have even one sin have, as the Bible says, "broken all of the Ten commandments". Therefore, hell is the natural result of sin and separation of God.

[Faux]

You guys still aren't tired of this?

[pianofrieak2]

You guys still aren't tired of this?

 

 

 

Considering how I love debating, no.

 

 

 

Apparently so do GhostRanger, MyPurpleCrayon, and bearofthunder. :wink:

[bearofthunder]

 

 

 

He didn't create non-Christians. He created people and gave them free choice.

 

 

 

He already knew who would become non-Christians when he made the universe. So, yes, he is responsible for non-Christians. Not by making them non-Christians, but by merely allowing them to be part of his universe when he made it.

 

 

 

I've already addressed your second question. You keep throwing the word "good" around when you aren't really thinking about what "good" is.

 

 

 

How do you know what good is? What's your standard?

 

 

 

Now, I'll wait and see what your answer is, but let me readress my question. God is good. He is everything good. But God is also just. Therefore, anything just is automatically good.

 

 

 

Once again, everything goes back to the fact that since the dawn of time, god has been aware of everything that will ever happen.

 

Therefore, he cannot be good because, as the creator of the universe, he created evil.

 

 

 

These three things occurred the simultaneously the instant god made the universe:

 

1. God creates universe and everything in it.

 

2. God is aware of everything that will ever happen, including the future existence of non-Christians.

 

3. God does nothing to prevent non-Christians from coming into existence.

[Faux]

You guys still aren't tired of this?

 

 

 

Considering how I love debating, no.

 

 

 

Apparently so do GhostRanger, MyPurpleCrayon, and bearofthunder. :wink:

 

 

 

It's pointless. If you give evidence that Christianity is real to an atheist, he wouldn't believe it. The same goes if an atheist gives evidence to a Christian.

 

 

 

Besides, threads like these seem to be made by atheists all the time for the purpose of religion-bashing anyway.

 

 

 

I'm Catholic.

[bearofthunder]

 

 

 

It's pointless. If you give evidence that Christianity is real to an atheist, he wouldn't believe it. The same goes if an atheist gives evidence to a Christian.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really don't think that's true.

[aj926]

I believe there is a higher power... not a god as discussed in the Bible. He is not all to believable... and besides, the Bible is the byproduct of man, whom is imperfect, as discussed in the Bible itself.

 

 

 

Imperfect man = Imperfect book