Afirmative Action

[Viktorkrum77]

Different perspectives, that's not the point of university. The point is to learn new things and expand your intelligence. I don't want to go to a place with people that have only been let in because of their skin colour. I'd much rather go to somewhere because they have deserved to get in, not in the name of an ethnic quota. Let's face it if a 100 students want to go to university, there were only 50 places however. At the top of the list are 50 white upper middle class as you put it, students. However futher down the line are some asian students, oh wait sorry for 20 of those white guys, we have to fill your places with people less intelligent than you to make the univeristy look better.

 

 

 

That is a serious problem, its not helping inequalities in race, it's pushing them much further apart.

 

 

 

And that is extremely unfair for the 20 or so white students. If they worked harder for it, than they deserve it more.

[Guest GhostRanger]

Mmm, I used to very much agree with you, before I got to college.

 

 

 

However, now that I'm in college, I have to admit how much I've benefitted from going to a diverse campus and being bombarded with different perspectives. I've grown a lot as a person, and I don't think the effect would have been the same if there were more equally qualified, but upper middle class white students.

 

 

 

The intention of affirmative action is two-fold: one, to make up for the (very real) inequalities in opportunity among different races and ethnicities, and two, to build a community where there is a diversity of opinion. The first intention is, I feel, more controversial than the latter. I haven't quite figured out how I feel about this first intention :)

 

 

 

So it benefits everyone that is there - I think we can all agree with that. I think the problem is what about the people who were qualified but didn't get in because a different quota had to be met? They aren't being benefited at all - they aren't even getting the higher education that they wanted so that your school could fill a quota.

 

 

 

Is that fair?

[runesmithie]

Mmm, I used to very much agree with you, before I got to college.

 

 

 

However, now that I'm in college, I have to admit how much I've benefitted from going to a diverse campus and being bombarded with different perspectives. I've grown a lot as a person, and I don't think the effect would have been the same if there were more equally qualified, but upper middle class white students.

 

 

 

The intention of affirmative action is two-fold: one, to make up for the (very real) inequalities in opportunity among different races and ethnicities, and two, to build a community where there is a diversity of opinion. The first intention is, I feel, more controversial than the latter. I haven't quite figured out how I feel about this first intention :)

 

 

 

So it benefits everyone that is there - I think we can all agree with that. I think the problem is what about the people who were qualified but didn't get in because a different quota had to be met? They aren't being benefited at all - they aren't even getting the higher education that they wanted so that your school could fill a quota.

 

 

 

Is that fair?

 

 

 

Ah well, sucks for those white middleclass males :(

[Guest GhostRanger]

Mmm, I used to very much agree with you, before I got to college.

 

 

 

However, now that I'm in college, I have to admit how much I've benefitted from going to a diverse campus and being bombarded with different perspectives. I've grown a lot as a person, and I don't think the effect would have been the same if there were more equally qualified, but upper middle class white students.

 

 

 

The intention of affirmative action is two-fold: one, to make up for the (very real) inequalities in opportunity among different races and ethnicities, and two, to build a community where there is a diversity of opinion. The first intention is, I feel, more controversial than the latter. I haven't quite figured out how I feel about this first intention :)

 

 

 

So it benefits everyone that is there - I think we can all agree with that. I think the problem is what about the people who were qualified but didn't get in because a different quota had to be met? They aren't being benefited at all - they aren't even getting the higher education that they wanted so that your school could fill a quota.

 

 

 

Is that fair?

 

 

 

Ah well, sucks for those white middleclass males :(

 

 

 

Well I guess you're just lucky you're a white middleclass female!

[bacab]

I really don't like the idea of the Affirmative Action thing based on the principle that TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT.

 

 

 

"OK, so American whites treated other races like crap in early history of the country. This means we should treat whites like crap to even things out. Yeah. "

 

 

 

I know that it's not that extreme. I know that nothing can be comparable to the evils of slavery, working other humans to death and sometimes raping them and treating them like animals and having them live in such horrid conditions. That's freaking cruel as it gets.

 

 

 

And then there's how we treated the Native Americans. That was horrible. This was THEIR land and we were like "Omg we have guns this is our land now get the hell off." Oh man we are so awesome.

 

 

 

Then there's the fear WW2 inspired in us and how we treated the Japanese out of that fear.

 

 

 

And two other words pop into mind -> Racial. Profiling.

 

 

 

But, really, Affirmative Action? That's crap right there. That's like saying, "Oh you're minorities and we know how minorities can't afford college and how minorities are too stupid to past tests so we like made this thing yanno where we can just put minorities into colleges because they can't do it for themselves." If I were an ethnic minority, that would make me feel terrible.

 

 

 

OK, so according to some crock scientist survey, about 10% of all people are gay. That makes me a minority. Gimme money damn it. Stonewall Rebellions, hon.

[issy2]

Well said. Again, I am not a racist, but I think Britain has gone 'Mulitculture mad'. In the news at te moment, our Hone Secretary, Jack Straw, is being slated by the Muslim community for asking Muslim women to remove their veils that cover all of heir fac except their eyes. He is being targetted because Muslim leaders are saying that it is part of their culture, not their religion, but their culture, and they should not be expected or even asked to take it off.

 

 

 

 

Well, it's our country. Personally, I think if the British/English/whatever public want to see face, expression, natural skin rather than black cloth, it's our choice. In no way am I being racist, I totally respect their culture, but as I said it's our country and therefore our choices.

 

 

 

But then again, it's the same thing backwards; if the Arabs want Westerners to cover themselves, we should. Well that's what I think...

[pro28]

Different perspectives, that's not the point of university. The point is to learn new things and expand your intelligence. I don't want to go to a place with people that have only been let in because of their skin colour. I'd much rather go to somewhere because they have deserved to get in, not in the name of an ethnic quota. Let's face it if a 100 students want to go to university, there were only 50 places however. At the top of the list are 50 white upper middle class as you put it, students. However futher down the line are some asian students, oh wait sorry for 20 of those white guys, we have to fill your places with people less intelligent than you to make the univeristy look better.

 

 

 

That is a serious problem, its not helping inequalities in race, it's pushing them much further apart.

 

 

 

Whoa, whoa, Asians? Affirmative Action? Are you kidding me?

 

 

 

"Because of their high degree of success as a group, Asian Americans do not generally benefit from affirmative action policies the way other minority groups do. In fact, some schools routinely choose lower-scoring applicants from other racial groups, even European American, over Asian American, in an attempt to promote racial diversity and to maintain some proportion to the society's racial demographics. One of the highest gaps is at UC Berkeley which does not practice affirmative action. The gap between Asian American and African American is about 300 SAT points.

 

 

 

According to a 2005 Princeton University study, if affirmative action were eliminated in college admissions, nearly four out of every five spots lost by African Americans and Hispanic Americans would be given to an Asian American."

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_mino ... ive_action

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmm... I wonder if I can just say I'm Hispanic? I mean, it's not like they'll make me take a DNA test...

[knives669]

I don't much care for Affirmitave Action either. I think it will become more and more of a problem in the future when the lines between races aren't so clear.

[Faux]

Well said. Again, I am not a racist, but I think Britain has gone 'Mulitculture mad'. In the news at te moment, our Hone Secretary, Jack Straw, is being slated by the Muslim community for asking Muslim women to remove their veils that cover all of heir fac except their eyes. He is being targetted because Muslim leaders are saying that it is part of their culture, not their religion, but their culture, and they should not be expected or even asked to take it off. So howcome then, when Westerners go to Arabian countries, we are expected to cover our faces, wear headscarves and not show our legs. If we do so, it is an arrestable offense.

 

 

 

I read an article about that yesterday, and just wow.

 

 

 

Anyway, I understand how affirmative action can be positive, but I agree that it's just backwards racism. If governments really want to compensate for what happened in the past, they should just forget the whole race categorization in the beginning. Discrimination is discrimination no matter how people twist and turn it.

 

 

 

It's not just for ethnicities either. It goes for sex as well. IIRC, there was an issue were some corporations were forced to include women in their boards. That's ridiculous because not every company will have women experienced enough for the job.

[Adam007]

Mmm, I used to very much agree with you, before I got to college.

 

 

 

However, now that I'm in college, I have to admit how much I've benefitted from going to a diverse campus and being bombarded with different perspectives. I've grown a lot as a person, and I don't think the effect would have been the same if there were more equally qualified, but upper middle class white students.

 

 

 

The intention of affirmative action is two-fold: one, to make up for the (very real) inequalities in opportunity among different races and ethnicities, and two, to build a community where there is a diversity of opinion. The first intention is, I feel, more controversial than the latter. I haven't quite figured out how I feel about this first intention :)

 

Well that's how it benefits you. If a school is naturally diverse, that's great. But people who deserve a spot more than someone who fills in a quotia shouldn't be rejected because of their race. That's just sending us back 100 years in term of civil rights. Just because diversity is a good thing doesn't mean faking it is fair in any way. I've gone to school with an extremely diverse class but it would be completely unfair for someone who isn't white to take my spot at a college just because he/she is more diverse if I'm more qualified. I have the same opportunity as any black person at my school. Just because someone lets a stereotype subconsciously limit/mold them doesn't mean someone needs to compensate for that at white people's expense.

 

 

 

Like I said in an earlier topic I made like this. We only have all of these troubles because we categorize people by race in the first place.

[runesmithie]

Adam: You just reminded me of a BOFH quote

 

 

 

"Of course we're bloody prejudiced! We want someone who can do that job!"

 

 

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/11 ... episode_5/

[Turnip]

What a lot of people don't understand is that AA doesn't support all minorities. While hispanics, native americans, and african americans' test scores are increased as a result of AA, asian americans are pretty much screwed over.

 

 

 

Wikipedia[/url]":2deoh5c4]An affirmative action study by Princeton sociologists Thomas J. Espenshade and Chang Y. Chung in 2005 attempted to break down and compare the effects of the practice among racial and special groups at three highly selective private research universities. The data from the study represent admissions disadvantage and advantage in terms of SAT points (on the old 1600-point scale):

 

 

 

* Blacks: +230

 

* Hispanics: +185

 

* Asians: -50

 

* Recruited athletes: +200

 

 

 

UC schools like Berkley and UCLA don't use AA, so a majority of the students are actually asian american rather than white.

[Viktorkrum77]

What a lot of people don't understand is that AA doesn't support all minorities. While hispanics, native americans, and african americans' test scores are increased as a result of AA, asian americans are pretty much screwed over.

 

 

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm hoping I heard you wrong, or am misunderstanding something.

[nogames]

Share i tbed...

[darkmage099]

What a lot of people don't understand is that AA doesn't support all minorities. While hispanics, native americans, and african americans' test scores are increased as a result of AA, asian americans are pretty much screwed over.

 

 

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm hoping I heard you wrong, or am misunderstanding something.

 

 

 

And that's where the Asian stereotype comes in. There's too many smartttt asian americans.

[Turnip]

What a lot of people don't understand is that AA doesn't support all minorities. While hispanics, native americans, and african americans' test scores are increased as a result of AA, asian americans are pretty much screwed over.

 

 

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm hoping I heard you wrong, or am misunderstanding something.

 

 

 

I don't get the misunderstanding? Generally, say if an african american, hispanic, asian american, and caucasian apply to a college (American), all receiving a 1300 on the SAT the scores would be interpreted under the lines of--

 

 

 

Asian = 1250

 

African American = 1530

 

Hispanic = 1485

 

White = 1300

 

 

 

When in reality they each really scored a 1300. It especially isn't good for asian americans cause you're really going against your own race because a lot of colleges have quotas on the amount of each there should be admitted to a school. So if you are not apart of the "smart" asian group, you're at a huge disadvantage.

[kane531]

there were some studies done a while back, there is no DNA evidence that black, white, and asian people are any different, we are all the same! your skin color is just different from where you live and what you eat. so in about 2000 years of living in a cooler climate, black people would get a little lighter skinned too... so this is all crap. :|

[Guest GhostRanger]

there were some studies done a while back, there is no DNA evidence that black, white, and asian people are any different, we are all the same! your skin color is just different from where you live and what you eat. so in about 2000 years of living in a cooler climate, black people would get a little lighter skinned too... so this is all crap. :|

 

 

 

I read a study awhile back that said AIDS was a gay disease. It's true!

[Turnip]

there were some studies done a while back, there is no DNA evidence that black, white, and asian people are any different, we are all the same! your skin color is just different from where you live and what you eat. so in about 2000 years of living in a cooler climate, black people would get a little lighter skinned too... so this is all crap. :|

 

 

 

It's really all about environment and cultural differences which cause the division, not the genetic makeup of each race.

[kane531]

exactly :-k

[Tigra00]

It is absolutely unfair, you're right!

 

 

 

But how do you think black people felt when they had it 1,000 times worse?

 

 

 

I know it sucks, but the reason it has to suck is so they'll shut up about the past. Sadly, they still don't, but whatever.

 

 

 

I say forget the past. Our ancestors were ignorant, we are not. 100 years from now, our children will look upon what we're doing now and call us ignorant, too.

[mad4u689]

A college wouldn't admit half of its class one year as oboe players and have no other students who played instruments. Each year, an admissions committee tries to make up a class that is fairly diverse - in terms of race, ethnicity, and economic background, but also such factors as artistic and musical interests, leadership interests, sports interests, etc.

 

 

 

A college is not obligated to admit every student that could succeed at and benefit from that college. If that were the case, even Harvard and Yale and Princeton would be overrun with far more students than they can handle!

 

 

 

Instead, a college looks for students that will (a) succeed at and benefit from that college and (B) add something extra, something special, to the college.

 

 

 

This something special could be being a star football player, or it could winning an Intel science award, or it could be bringing in a new perspective as an international student or as a student of color. In the end, the makeup of the student body will be more diverse as a result of these admissions efforts, and the college will be better as a result. From the perspective of the COLLEGE, this is good and fine.

 

 

 

It is the perspective of the individual ("Ahh! I'm never going to get into college because I'm white! Not fair!") that causes complaints, but this reason, while sensical, is not a decent reason for policy change.

 

 

 

 

 

~~~

 

 

 

Another, different, perspective on affirmative action:

 

 

 

There exist injustices committed in this country, and in every country. When two people are born, they are born into completely different circumstances, much of which is beyond their control.

 

 

 

If they succeed and do outstandingly well WITHIN THEIR ENVIRONMENT, taking circumstances into account, shouldn't that be rewarded just as much? If an individual scores 1950 on the SATs in a school district where the average score is 800, shouldn't that be weighted just as heavily as someone who scores 2100 on the SATs in a school district where the average score is 1800? (This is similar to real life sample statistics).

 

 

 

Shouldn't there be room for economic advancement? Do we really want social and economic stratification guaranteed by a policy that keeps down those who are already down?

[Guest GhostRanger]

^ I think that diversity of thought and interests is a great thing to have campus. My complain is with filling racial quotas. There is nothing about being a certain race that guarantees diversity. I'm sick of seeing how many black students we have enrolled every year. Maybe we should count how many Republicans and Democrats we have and try to recruit more Libertarians and supporters of the Green Party?

 

 

 

My point is that race does not mean diversity. Now, if we're talking about their social class, and let's face it, right now there are lots of parallels between race and social class now, that's something different. I think it is great to make efforts to make a campus diverse with people from different social status' because that's real diversity. But being black doesn't mean anything compared to being white and therefore, racial quotas should not be filled.

[mad4u689]

^ I think that diversity of thought and interests is a great thing to have campus. My complain is with filling racial quotas. There is nothing about being a certain race that guarantees diversity. I'm sick of seeing how many black students we have enrolled every year. Maybe we should count how many Republicans and Democrats we have and try to recruit more Libertarians and supporters of the Green Party?

 

 

 

My point is that race does not mean diversity. Now, if we're talking about their social class, and let's face it, right now there are lots of parallels between race and social class now, that's something different. I think it is great to make efforts to make a campus diverse with people from different social status' because that's real diversity. But being black doesn't mean anything compared to being white and therefore, racial quotas should not be filled.

 

 

 

Affirmative action does not just refer to racial affirmative action. A great deal of economic affirmative action is at play, too, as well as countless others I described in my previous post!

 

 

 

However, being black DOES mean something compared to being white. Not inherently, not because of your genetic code - but given the same environment otherwise, a black individual and a white individual will be exposed to VERY DIFFERENT treatment by society, not always in direct ways.

 

 

 

I heard a story about my mom's workplace. The woman in charge of choosing job applicants to interview tossed out the application of someone named "Latisha." My mom asked why, and the woman replied, with a look, that "Oh - John [their boss] wouldn't want me to bother with someone named Latisha." The woman blamed the boss, but the boss probably wouldn't have cared, and my mom remained silent. My mom was skeptical, but didn't say anything to the boss. Latisha never got interviewed. My mom told me this story, and I didn't do anything about it, either. Is this fair? No. Is this something that still happens in our society? Sadly, yes. This is just an example of the prejudice that confronts our society today and that causes someone black and someone white to have very different experiences, even if they grew up with economic privilege.

 

 

 

Also, studies have found that at college, students of color performed just as well in an academic setting as did white students, despite affirmative action maybe having helped them get in.

[Guest GhostRanger]

^ I guess I'm just speaking directly to ratial quotas then.

 

 

 

Sure, there are plenty of examples of ratial stereotypes, but that doesn't mean that it is the norm. I don't think that given the same enviroment, the majority of blacks are going to have a harder time than whites. From my experience, blacks that grew up in the same social class as myself have been over-compensated for something they aren't lacking, and had a much more competitive edge in school. I know of three girls in my year off the top of my head who were awarded five or more scholarships that I could have been competitive for just because they were black. Two of these girls live in the same neighborhood as me, and the other lives in a neighborhood much more well off than myself.

 

 

 

I don't think being black is ever a reason to give anyone any sort of special treatment. Even if there was discrimination going on (which there is, but I don't think it is the norm as I said), giving special treatment is not the way to combat it. Fighting discrimination, not giving blacks special treatment is the only way we can get past this. I know for a fact that the majority of white males resent black people when they know that they have been given an unfair advantage. It pisses me off that those girls could get as many scholarships as they could solely because of their skin color, when I know that they didn't need it any more than I did - they didn't deserve it anymore than I did - it just so happens they are black.