Do you believe in God?

[Astralinre]

http://www.resa.net/nasa/origins_life.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In whichever way life developed, we have fossil traces of it that have been reliably dated at 3.5 billion years old.

 

 

 

But - we are still left with the question: how and under what circumstances does life start?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I see no explanation of the origin of life on that site. It says when they think it happened, and they say that they have fossils from that period, but they explain nothing.

[insane]

 

http://www.resa.net/nasa/origins_life.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In whichever way life developed, we have fossil traces of it that have been reliably dated at 3.5 billion years old.

 

 

 

But - we are still left with the question: how and under what circumstances does life start?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I see no explanation of the origin of life on that site. It says when they think it happened, and they say that they have fossils from that period, but they explain nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another huge thing is that evolution doesn't disprove God's existence.

[frogact]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, the Almighty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He asks one of his new Christian students to stand and.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Professor: You are a Christian, aren't you, son?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : Yes, sir.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: So you believe in God?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : Absolutely, sir.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Is God good?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : Sure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Is God all-powerful?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : Yes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How is this God good then? Hmm?

 

 

 

(Student is silent.)

 

 

 

Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student :Yes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Is Satan good?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : No.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Where does Satan come from?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : From...God...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : Yes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : Yes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: So who created evil?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Student does not answer.)

 

 

 

Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student :Yes, sir.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: So, who created them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Student has no answer.)

 

 

 

Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student: No, sir.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : No , sir.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : Yes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Yes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : And is there such a thing as cold?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Yes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : No sir. There isn't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

 

 

 

Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

 

 

 

Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God.You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure.Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)

 

 

 

Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(The class is in uproar.)

 

 

 

Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(The class breaks out into laughter.)

 

 

 

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it?.....No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable.)

 

 

 

Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Student : That is it sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive.

[chambochae]

 

etc etc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The difference is of course that the professor could go and have a scan or similar procedure to prove he has a brain, whereas no one knows how to prove god exists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Theories dont explain observations and evidence. It's the other way around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually it works both ways. For example, when scientists found that the universe is expanding, they thought hmmm, I wonder why? Thus the big bang theory. The Big bang theory then predicted there would be the echo of the big bang in the form of radiation all around us, coming from every direction. Then some other scientists accidently detected that exact same radiation, the radiation which the theory predicted would exist. I would say that's pretty convincing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So a theory can be made to explain anomalous results, and new evidence can also be used to back up (or discredit) existing theories.

[insane]

 

 

etc etc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The difference is of course that the professor could go and have a scan or similar procedure to prove he has a brain, whereas no one knows how to prove god exists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the point was that they were acting on faith. Or maybe it was what you said too. Anyways...

[frogact]

The difference is of course that the professor could go and have a scan or similar procedure to prove he has a brain, whereas no one knows how to prove god exists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but he can't prove the theory of evolution which he teaches as fact.

 

 

 

And the bigger point of the conversation is that belief in God is faith based. But for those who do need proof there are so many just in creation alone. In the intelligent design of it all. from a fish that uses bait to catch it's prey to a butterfly that can make itself look like something scary from the air to a beetle that was engaging in chemical warfar before man ever even had an inkling of what that was. I could go on and on. There is no way that anyone will ever be able to prove to me that the world I live in happened by chance. It just couldnt be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I agree with you Insane, proving evolution to be true would not disprove God.

[cube5]

I dont beleive in him because i believe in science. But i do see where faith comes from and am starting to rethink that because of frogact's long quote about the proffessor. The only thing that seperates my non beliving to me believing is that i have never seen heard or felt god. I have read a Your first bible book(when i was younger). and i dont see how God could create the things like the burning bush and when they marched around the walls for 7 days and they fell down(sorry but it was a long time ago when i read that i dont know the names). But science can explain those events. one last thing is that how do we know that these events happend other then the bible how do we know that the bible isnt just a book were someone wrote down their ideas about life and then was added on to by more people hence john 5:7(just example dont know if true).

[frogact]

how do we know that the bible isnt just a book were someone wrote down their ideas about life and then was added on to by more people .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Several ways for me and many of them can be verified in secular sources.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-The historical accuracy of the history books of the Bible, specifically acts.

 

 

 

-historical events written about in the Bible accurately centuries before they actually happened (four major world empires, alexander the great).

 

 

 

-100's of prephecies concerning Christ that were fulfilled in his birth, death, and resurrection

 

 

 

-the Bible contains 66 books written by approximately 40 different authors over a span of about 2,000 years. There are no contradictions anywhere and all of the books have the same central theme, God's plan of salvation for man.

[chambochae]

 

The difference is of course that the professor could go and have a scan or similar procedure to prove he has a brain, whereas no one knows how to prove god exists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but he can't prove the theory of evolution which he teaches as fact.

 

 

 

And the bigger point of the conversation is that belief in God is faith based. But for those who do need proof there are so many just in creation alone. In the intelligent design of it all. from a fish that uses bait to catch it's prey to a butterfly that can make itself look like something scary to birds to a beetle that was engaging in chemical warfar before man ever even had an inkling of what that was. I could go on and on. There is no way that anyone will ever be able to prove to me that the world I live in happened by chance. It just couldnt be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course! That would be absurd! No one (I hope) is saying the world around us happened by chance. They happened by evolution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's use one of your examples. An insect is which is usually black, tends to get eaten a lot by it's predators. But one day, an insect is born with a mutation which causes it to have an area of white on it's back. (colouration is quite a common mutation). Now it just so happens that this insect doesn't get eaten because the predators are wary of the white spot, and so the 'white spot' genes carry on with the baby insects, and so on and so forth, until you've got a new insect which has an eye shaped spot on it's back to warn off predators. (whilst this happens other traits such as leg length, wing shape, practically everything is devolping aswell, to create a new species). The white spot was 'selected' because it caused the insect to survive better in it's environment than the other insects around it. Survival of the fittest, and natural selection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I said this in the previous post, but it is the most convinving evidence I know of that evolution happened: The evolution of the eye. We have a fossil trilobite to account for every single stage in the evolution of the eye, from the very first slightly light sensitive cells, to the full blown multi-faceted eye. A fossil for every stage in between, we can see how it developed over millions of years into what we would call an eye.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But not only that, we can observe every single stage of the evolution of the eye in living animals today, proving that every stage of the eye was a useful trait, and an advantage over the previous stage. That is one reason why I believe evolution has happened.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cube 5: The fact about the bible is that because some events in it are true, people assume it is all true. That's quite an assumption, don't you think?

[Duke_Freedom]

Seems to me like the biggest scam in the world, some guy trying to declare himself king so he can rip people off. :roll:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, that's my opinion about it too. Especially when you look at all the trouble religions caused (many wars are started because of different religions). Religions were made up by humanity to oppress people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Frogact: You made a good point with your story. If you look at what I said earlier in this thread you'll find out I already said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe in science.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scientifical theories can be seen as a religion too. They can't be proven either, just like the existance of god.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What can be proven is whether it's likely or not that some theory is true. Scientist did many experiments to prove the truth of the evolution theory. All these experiments showed that the evolution theory is very likely to be true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While the existance of god can't be disproven, it is very easy to show that it's very unlikely that god does exist. Besides that: There are absolutely NO indications that god does exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So yes I got a religion too... It's called science. The difference with other religions is that science has indications that it's true, while other religions have NO indications that they are true, and earlier the opposite: there are many indications that it's NOT true.

[frogact]

 

 

 

Of course! That would be absurd! No one (I hope) is saying the world around us happened by chance. They happened by evolution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you're completely ruling out intelligent design, it had to have happened by chance. You cant have it both ways. intelligent desgin or chance, it had to be one or the other. natural selection relies on traits that show up by chance.

[frogact]

(many wars are started because of different religions).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wars are not started by religion or faith. They are started by evil people who pervert the teachings of their religions.

[Usara]

Evolution and survival of the fittest run hand in hand. We wouldn't exsist if a comet hadn't wiped out the dinosaurs. How can you evolve if theres a t rex on your [wagon]?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Natural selection is NOT about traits showing up by chance, infinite mutations occur, if the mutation is good then that microbe or speices will be better than the other, he or she will get more partners and be better than the others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the mutation is bad, the organism is killed off coldly. Survival of the fittest.

[chambochae]

 

 

 

 

Of course! That would be absurd! No one (I hope) is saying the world around us happened by chance. They happened by evolution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you're completely ruling out intelligent design, it had to have happened by chance. You cant have it both ways. intelligent desgin or chance, it had to be one or the other. natural selection relies on traits that show up by chance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2*5 isn't 10 by chance, though it was chance that made me choose 2 and 5. In the same way, perhaps the mutations happen by chance, but if those mutations are no good they get discarded, in a particularly intelligent manner. Perhaps this is an example of a mechanical process mimicking (bettering) intelligent design.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And evolution is definately a very intelligent process. For example, in the news recently has been the people who used the laws of evolution to evolve better formula 1 racing cars, which actually shave seconds of circuit times. It is clear that evolution can achieve things that mere intelligence, as we know it, couldn't even dream of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it says something that we have relied on intelligence to make the fastest cars for years, and yet are now discarding it for, as you put it, chance.

[Duke_Freedom]

 

(many wars are started because of different religions).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wars are not started by religion or faith. They are started by evil people who pervert the teachings of their religions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't feel like writing a whole story about it, but just look at Iraq and the terrorism. People believe in things, that oppressing leaders tell them in the name of some religion. Just to misuse them for wrong things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Religions were already made up by wrong people to misuse people in the first place IMO.

[frogact]

And evolution is definately a very intelligent process..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then where does the intelligence come from? Matter cant possess it.

[Astralinre]

Evolution and survival of the fittest run hand in hand. We wouldn't exsist if a comet hadn't wiped out the dinosaurs. How can you evolve if theres a t rex on your wagon?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Natural selection is NOT about traits showing up by chance, infinite mutations occur, if the mutation is good then that microbe or speices will be better than the other, he or she will get more partners and be better than the others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the mutation is bad, the organism is killed off coldly. Survival of the fittest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So then evolution depends on the chance that the mutation is favorable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And chambochae, that would be evolution guided by intellegent intent, which is completely different than the evolution we have been talking about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As others have said before, evolution does not disprove God (even though I personally don't believe in it). God could easily be the guiding force behind evolution, and could have used it to create life.

[frogact]

Evolution and survival of the fittest run hand in hand. We wouldn't exsist if a comet hadn't wiped out the dinosaurs. How can you evolve if theres a t rex on your wagon?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

dinosaurs and man co-existed.

[Usara]

Chance that mutation is favourable? With millions of different mutations on a sub atomic and genological nature, I would hardly call the chances that varied.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess the chances are about 99% for a favourable mutaion (geneologically)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Evolution isnt intelligent, weeding out the unfortunate isnt humane, but its natural.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You prove my point:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"God created life."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Evolution comes along*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"God probaly used evolution to create life."

[frogact]

 

(many wars are started because of different religions).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wars are not started by religion or faith. They are started by evil people who pervert the teachings of their religions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't feel like writing a whole story about it' date=' but just look at Iraq and the terrorism. [/quote'] It bares repeating that faith does not start wars. It is a lack of faith or the perverting of good teachings by evil people that starts wars. People start wars.

 

 

 

Religions were already made up by wrong people to misuse people in the first place IMO.

 

 

 

that is true in regards to some religions.

[Usara]

 

Evolution and survival of the fittest run hand in hand. We wouldn't exsist if a comet hadn't wiped out the dinosaurs. How can you evolve if theres a t rex on your wagon?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

dinosaurs and man co-existed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is suprising that we should evolve so little in millions of years...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have evolved into machinery only in the last 100 years.

[insane]

 

 

(many wars are started because of different religions).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wars are not started by religion or faith. They are started by evil people who pervert the teachings of their religions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't feel like writing a whole story about it, but just look at Iraq and the terrorism. People believe in things, that oppressing leaders tell them in the name of some religion. Just to misuse them for wrong things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Religions were already made up by wrong people to misuse people in the first place IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Iraq and terrorism is created through people misinterpreting their religion. And people misusing religion is completely irrelevant to God's existence.

[chambochae]

 

And evolution is definately a very intelligent process..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then where does the intelligence come from? Matter cant possess it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alright, I'll rephrase it: "Evolution is definately a process which achieves results comparable or better than results achieved by intelligent means."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And chambochae, that would be evolution guided by intellegent intent, which is completely different than the evolution we have been talking about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But it is still evolution. We may have designed the software, but when the GO button was pressed, no humans had any input. Evolution did it all. Without the evolution, that car may never have been designed, and certainly not within the time scale it was. It was a car tailored by evolution to complete a circuit in the shortest time possible within the restraints of the rules of the sport.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just like, designing an organism which is tailored by evolution to survive better than it's fellow organisms within the constraints of the environment it is placed in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

dinosaurs and man co-existed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And your evidence for this is...?

[frogact]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

dinosaurs and man co-existed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And your evidence for this is...?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Paluxy River, Tx

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In 600 BC, under the reign of King Nebuchanezzer,a Babylonian artist was commissioned to shape reliefs of animals on the structures associated with the Ishtar Gate. Centuries later, in 1887 AD, when German archaeologist Robert Koldeway stumbled upon the blue-glazed brick, that gate was rediscovered. The animals appear in alternating rows with lions, fierce bulls (rimi or reems in Chaldean), and curious long-necked dragons (sirrush). The lions and bulls would have been present at that time in the Middle East. But, on what creature did the ancient Babylonians model the dragon? The same word, sirrush, is mentioned in the book of Bel and the Dragon, from the Apocrypha. Both the description there and the image on these unearthed walls (see right), which are now displayed in the Berlin Vorderasiatisches Museum, appear to fit a sauropod dinosaur.

(Shuker, Karl P.N., "The Sirrush of Babylon," Dragons: A Natural History, 1995, pp. 70-73.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

here's more http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/ancient.htm

[Duke_Freedom]

It bares repeating that faith does not start wars. It is a lack of faith or the perverting of good teachings by evil people that starts wars. People start wars.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Need another example? The holy crusades in the medieval? People start these wars in the name of a religion. They wouldn't be able to justify it in any other way! Hence, those wars wouldn't even be necessary without religions.

 

 

 

And what about the times that you could buy your way to heaven, by paying a preacher to take away your transgressions? IMO that shows corruption and the misuse of religion for which it was intended.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Iraq and terrorism is created through people misinterpreting their religion. And people misusing religion is completely irrelevant to God's existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seems we got many people misinterpreting religion then, eh? Nah, Iraq and terrorism is created by the use of a religion to justify it all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And that I said that people misuse religion isn't irrelevant to God's existance... If these religions were made up by people and were made to oppress people then why would the part of the existance of a god in them be true?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like I said: I can't disprove the existance of a god, I can only show that it's unlikely there is a god.