frogact Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 People start these wars in the name of a religion. . perverted religion, not true Christian faith I can only show that it's unlikely there is a god. how? jfroggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambochae Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 People start these wars in the name of a religion. . perverted religion, not true Christian faith I can only show that it's unlikely there is a god. how? Have you been reading the topic at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogact Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 People start these wars in the name of a religion. . perverted religion, not true Christian faith I can only show that it's unlikely there is a god. how? Have you been reading the topic at all? umm yes I have but he says he can show that God probably doesnt exist and I havnt seen him do that. have you? jfroggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke_Freedom Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 umm yes I have but he says he can show that God probably doesnt exist and I havnt seen him do that. have you? Need to repeat everything I said already? 1) Theres absolutely no indication about the existance of a god. 2) Religions can get people do things they wouldn't do under normal circumstances: Religions were made to oppress and misuse people, and to keep people 'stupid' (for the lack of a better word). I gave plenty of examples about this so read my other posts for that. I'll add some more: - Religion made people think the whole universe was rotating around Earth, while Earth was rotating around the sun. - Religion made people think that Earth wasn't round. 3) There have been gods for everything and a lot of them were proven false by science. Good examples of this are: the god of thunder Thor (Viking god), the god of a good harvest (Egyptian god) and many, many others. Why would this god of creation exist then? People just make up gods for things they can't explain yet. But with so many gods proven false already it is not very likely that this god of creation will exist. 4) Different theories which are very likely to be true (like the Big Bang theory, evolution theory) show no indication about a god and show that everything that we have now happened through logical events. 5) God is supposed to be good? Yet we got so much evil around us. The value of my bank at its height. Estimated value at the peak of the rares market: 250 billion+.Most likely the largest trade in RuneScape ever. Estimated value at the peak of the rares market: 70 billion+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_ssgotenks_ Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 umm yes I have but he says he can show that God probably doesnt exist and I havnt seen him do that. have you? Need to repeat everything I said already? 1) Theres absolutely no indication about the existance of a god. 2) Religions can get people do things they wouldn't do under normal circumstances: Religions were made to oppress and misuse people, and to keep people 'stupid' (for the lack of a better word). I gave plenty of examples about this so read my other posts for that. I'll add some more: - Religion made people think the whole universe was rotating around Earth, while Earth was rotating around the sun. - Religion made people think that Earth wasn't round. 3) There have been gods for everything and a lot of them were proven false by science. Good examples of this are: the god of thunder Thor (Viking god), the god of a good harvest (Egyptian god) and many, many others. Why would this god of creation exist then? People just make up gods for things they can't explain yet. But with so many gods proven false already it is not very likely that this god of creation will exist. 4) Different theories which are very likely to be true (like the Big Bang theory, evolution theory) show no indication about a god and show that everything that we have now happened through logical events. 5) God is supposed to be good? Yet we got so much evil around us. all i can really say, is... this is brilliant. you're very much the same as me, in views of religion...i guess the possibility of god does exist, but its low. if ever i need a spokes-person in a religous debate, you'll be the first i call. also.... Evolution and survival of the fittest run hand in hand. We wouldn't exsist if a comet hadn't wiped out the dinosaurs. How can you evolve if theres a t rex on your wagon? . dinosaurs and man co-existed. It is suprising that we should evolve so little in millions of years... We have evolved into machinery only in the last 100 years. quite true. Earth has been around for roughly 4.5 billion years, whilst most of that time was just earth forming and such...only in the last couple hundred million years have we had life. then only in the past 3 or so thousand years have we had any sort of REAL progression towards a civilized society, and only in the last 100 years have we went from horse and buggy to space flight. its quite insane to think about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogact Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 no need at all to repeat what you've already said. I understand if you dont believe, but you havent shown that there isn't a god as you said you could. You're right there is evil in the world because some people choose to be evil and do evil things. God is good. We are evil. and what would i be if i left out satan. jfroggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke_Freedom Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I can only show that it's unlikely there is a god. no need at all to repeat what you've already said. I understand if you dont believe, but you havent shown that there isn't a god as you said you could. Don't forget what I said ;). I said I could show that's unlikely that there is a god (which I did). I said I couldn't prove that god doesn't exist and I also explained why: Scientifical theories can be seen as a religion too. They can't be proven either, just like the existance of god. What can be proven is whether it's likely or not that some theory is true. Scientist did many experiments to prove the truth of the evolution theory. All these experiments showed that the evolution theory is very likely to be true. Theories simply can't be proven (the existance of a god is a theory too). The only thing that can be proven about them is whether they are likely to be true or not. The value of my bank at its height. Estimated value at the peak of the rares market: 250 billion+.Most likely the largest trade in RuneScape ever. Estimated value at the peak of the rares market: 70 billion+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogact Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Don't forget what I said ;). I said I could show that's unlikely that there is a god (which I did). right. and i disagreed. I dont think you've shown that it's unlikely that there is a god. :wink: Are you starting to sense that we're both the type that needs to have the last word? 8) added: There is a really good book called the case for faith. It was written by a once athiest who set out to prove there is no god. His findings led him to devout Christian faith. not trying to convert anyone, i just find that fascinating. jfroggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke_Freedom Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I dont think you've shown that it's unlikely that there is a god. Why not? Oh it's probably because of this reason: Another problem is that you simply can't discuss the existing of god with people who begin with the reasoning that god exists... So hereby I end our discussion, as we reached the state that I announced on page 4 in this topic already. I knew I was gonna quote it later on. The value of my bank at its height. Estimated value at the peak of the rares market: 250 billion+.Most likely the largest trade in RuneScape ever. Estimated value at the peak of the rares market: 70 billion+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogact Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 sigh... i could say the exact same thing turning it around. You cant discuss the non-existance of god with people who begin with the reasoning that He doesnt exist. My disagreeing with you doesnt make me unreasonable. Discussion ended per your request. jfroggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke_Freedom Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 sigh... i could say the exact same thing turning it around. You cant discuss the non-existance of god with people who begin with the reasoning that He doesnt exist. My disagreeing with you doesnt make me unreasonable. Discussion ended per your request. You shouldn't begin to take something for true when you begin discussing, that's the problem. If you need to prove that a triangle exist of 180 degrees then you don't start by saying.. A triangle is 180 degrees. You couldn't say the same thing turining it around as it's not logical to begin with the reasoning that a triangle is 180 degrees and then prove that it's true that a triangle is 180 degrees as there's nothing to prove anymore then. The value of my bank at its height. Estimated value at the peak of the rares market: 250 billion+.Most likely the largest trade in RuneScape ever. Estimated value at the peak of the rares market: 70 billion+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 sigh... i could say the exact same thing turning it around. You cant discuss the non-existance of god with people who begin with the reasoning that He doesnt exist. My disagreeing with you doesnt make me unreasonable. Discussion ended per your request. You shouldn't begin to take something for true when you begin discussing, that's the problem. If you need to prove that a triangle exist of 180 degrees then you don't start by saying.. A triangle is 180 degrees. You couldn't say the same thing turining it around as it's not logical to begin with the reasoning that a triangle is 180 degrees and then prove that it's true that a triangle is 180 degrees as there's nothing to prove anymore then. It's always possible until until proven impossible. You cannot say it is true or false without definite proof, as those are both very definite statements. I have to say that I admire the maturity with which people have handled this subject. 1) Theres absolutely no indication about the existance of a god. 2) Religions can get people do things they wouldn't do under normal circumstances: Religions were made to oppress and misuse people, and to keep people 'stupid' (for the lack of a better word). I gave plenty of examples about this so read my other posts for that. I'll add some more: - Religion made people think the whole universe was rotating around Earth, while Earth was rotating around the sun. - Religion made people think that Earth wasn't round. 3) There have been gods for everything and a lot of them were proven false by science. Good examples of this are: the god of thunder Thor (Viking god), the god of a good harvest (Egyptian god) and many, many others. Why would this god of creation exist then? People just make up gods for things they can't explain yet. But with so many gods proven false already it is not very likely that this god of creation will exist. 4) Different theories which are very likely to be true (like the Big Bang theory, evolution theory) show no indication about a god and show that everything that we have now happened through logical events. 5) God is supposed to be good? Yet we got so much evil around us. 1. But there is also no proof that there is no God. 2. Irrelevent to God's existence, but... Not all religions were made to oppress people. How is it oppressive to teach people to be loving and forgiving? (Christianity, among others) How is it oppressive to teach acceptance of all beliefs? (New Age, etc) People did not belive those things becuase of religion, they believed them because they were scientifically ignorant. Of course, some people knew better, from the time of the ancient Greeks at least. 3. God shouldn't be used as an excuse to be ignorant. His creation should be studied; we should try to understand nature to the best of our abilities. While we know how these processes occur, we can't rule out that God is in control of them. He could be controling every single detail of every single event. 4. Those theories are also fairly unlikely, and neither would disprove the existence of God if somehow proved. He could very well have used those processes to create the universe and life. 5. This is a tricky topic. I've been talking about his with some of my Christian friends on another board. I'll quote some of them here. Good and evil cannot coexist from eternity. Let's look at the chain of logic. 1) Evil existed from all eternity. 2) If God is outside creation, He was the only thing to exist before creation. If time is part of creation, than, threfore, it stands to reason that God is the only being to exist from all eternity. 3) Therefore, God is bad. Do you see where this leaves us? If God is bad, then the whole Bible is a lie, our salvation is meaningless, and He is just another pagan, savage, capricious god. Also, check out Scripture: "And God saw that everything he made was very good." (Genesis 2:4) Therefore, there has to be another option than that evil existed from all eternity. C.S. Lewis had some interesting thoughts on this. His premise is because of the moral law within us, we know what good is. When we don't follow the moral law, this is the origin of evil and human suffering. Therefore, two of my own thoughts. If evil is disobedience and rebellion, how could it have existed from all eternity? Can God disobey Himself? There was no rebellion until Lucifer fell. So until that point, there was, obviously, no evil. What Ted is proposing seems curiously close to Dualism, which is in every way heretical. Again, I quote C.S. Lewis. "But the moment you say that, you are putting into the universe a third thing in addition to the two Powers:some law or standard of good which one of the powers conforms to and the other fails to conform to. But since the two powers are judged by this standard, then this standard, or the being who made this standard, is further back and higher up than either of them, and he will be the real God." (Mere Christianity) "God is light. In him there is no darkness at all." ~1 John 1:5 Those are my thoughts. I know they don't answer every question Ted asked, and my logic may be faulty or incomplete, but perhaps it sheds light on some of these questions. Posted - 06/18/2004 : 11:46:59 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've just read the entire thread and have a few thoughts on evil and God. First of all, I noticed that almost every discussion treats evil as a THING. Maybe it's not. When I was in Christian school, evil was described to me scientifically: (Everybody, remember back to your High School chemistry classes) Heat exists, it is a thing. Cold does not and is not. Cold is a state of being. Saying that something is cold is a non-scientific way of saying it lacks heat. (Anybody recognize this?) Light exists, it is a thing. Dark does not and is not. Dark is a state of being. Saying that something is dark is a non-scientific way of saying it lacks light. As with the above, you cannot make something darker, you can only take away more light. Good exists, it is a Thing (Person). Evil does not "exist" and is not a person. Saying that something is evil is a "non-scientific" way of saying it lacks good (God). Again, you do not become "more evil", you move further away from the Good. See what I'm getting at here? Left and right (to use examples from another post) are two "things" that can be defined by their opposites. States of being are different. Evil is the state of not being like God. It is not a thing that needed to be created. "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S1acker Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 I believe you can discuss something openly though, even if you have a personal view on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepsi16 Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Yes, He's real. Athiest's are going to hell. Bye now :wink:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonsie Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 This god that you speak of, does he exist? Some of you say yes, some say no but neither side has the ability to prove the existence or non existence of said being. Ask a religious person where god is and they will point out at the horizon as if to say out there be the lord, but an athiest would laugh and say that is not proof. We are in awe of the world but have no answers to its origins whether it was a divine being or an explosion of high magnitude it cannot be proven, because that would bring in more questions such as what created god? Where did the energy come in to make the big bang? You cannot prove beyond all reasonable doubt that there is a divine being, but you cannot disprove it. Yes, He's real. Athiest's are going to hell. Bye now :wink:. Athiests don't beleive in hell or heaven so we don't have that problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forsaken Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 About good and evil. What is good and evil? Is good and evil not defined by the human race? If we had a baby, used him/her for an experiment (this is hypothetical, so don't jump on me for it), and put him/her in a room with no influence from other people, and if he/she was able communicate to us when older, what would it's perception of 'right and wrong' be? would there be such a thing as right and wrong? What i'm getting at, is Good and Bad is defined by society, if everyone believed that killing someone was good, naturally those who were born would be influenced and moulded by the society, because that's all there is, nothing more. Once again i say, when all believe one thing, it more or less becomes the truth. I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atresica Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Scientific proof can also proof the existance of a diety. Just not the way most people in this thread considder It to be. People mention the evolution theory and the Big Bang as proof against the existance. Who has proven that there hasn't been some sort of force involved in it? Another thing is that things that are often combined with the existance of a diety (like the afterlife) can become acceptable if one thinks of the laws of physics. After all, there cannot be more nor less energy in the universe, so the energy that is inside your body while you're alive (think of the energy pulsing through your nerves) has to go somewhere (and considdering the chemical reactions of your body after death, it doesn't go into that process) I don't believe much of the christian way at looking at god, too many things that are inconsistant and I simply don't like reading the bible ;) However, if you'd ask me whether there is some sort of Cosmic force having influence on the way how it goes, then yes, that thought has come on my mind more than once. As for good or evil, it's relative. There isn't a single case where one can question whether they do good or do evil (even a stupid thing like taking care of one's parent could be considdered as evil depending on what way you look at it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chambochae Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Frogact, many people in this topic has shown how it is unlikely that (a) god exists. The way I personally came to that conclusion is because we simply, and probably will never, know what caused the big bang because whatever it was is now outside of our universe (or just hidden within it [god is hidden if he exists], it makes no difference). This means that as far as we are concerned there is an infinate number of things that could have caused the big bang, a god being one of them. SO the probability of a god having created the universe is 1/infinity. Which is infinately small. Therefore the likelihood of a god existing is infinately small. (not very likely). Until you find proper evidence for the existence of god, that likelihood is NEVER going to increase. (I'm afraid the atheists have the upper hand here, since the probability that they are correct is (infinity - 1)/infinity. Personally, I havn't guessed at anything for sure. Though if I had to, I would put my money on two universes colliding in the multiverse, purely because I like that theory. What this probability does show is that there's absolutely no point trying to persuade anyone otherwise, since "your guess is as good as mine." Also, I needn't have used the Big Bang specifically, I could have just said "A tree" or "an apple" or simply "the universe". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke_Freedom Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 1. But there is also no proof that there is no God. Well all those reasons I stated all make it very unlikely that a god exists. Like I said many times before by now, you can't proof god doesn't exist and I won't even try it. 2. Irrelevent to God's existence, but... Not all religions were made to oppress people. How is it oppressive to teach people to be loving and forgiving? (Christianity, among others) How is it oppressive to teach acceptance of all beliefs? (New Age, etc) People did not belive those things becuase of religion, they believed them because they were scientifically ignorant. Of course, some people knew better, from the time of the ancient Greeks at least. You might found it a bit irrelevant, but I use it to show that religions were made up to oppress, keep people stupid and to misuse them, and therefore it's not likely that the same religion is right about his part about god. Ever heard of the Inquisition? You wouldn't call that acceptance to other beliefs now, would you? Religion stopped our technological advance (the religion of science) for 100's of years (in the medieval), you call that tollerance? Seems like religions don't teach people be to be tollerant.. Rather the opposite. Most religions, when you really analyze their holy books, keep a difference between man and woman. The man is better then the woman. The woman should be subserviently to the man. I'm sure you are going to deny this, but if you analyze the books you should come to this conclusion. Is that fair? 4. Those theories are also fairly unlikely, and neither would disprove the existence of God if somehow proved. He could very well have used those processes to create the universe and life. Not disprove, but make it unlikely it's true. Oh and to found out that those theories are very likely to be true you should search information about it on the web. Especially the evolution theory is thrustable. Good and evil cannot coexist from eternity. Let's look at the chain of logic. 1) Evil existed from all eternity. 2) If God is outside creation, He was the only thing to exist before creation. If time is part of creation, than, threfore, it stands to reason that God is the only being to exist from all eternity. 3) Therefore, God is bad. Once again, we begin with the reasoining god existed, which is against all the laws of our logical thinking: If god exist --> Conclusion: god exists. Hard for me to react on that don't you think? It's like saying: If an apple is a banana --> Conclusion: An apple is a banana This shows that you get to say the most stupid things if you start with the reasoning that something is true. The value of my bank at its height. Estimated value at the peak of the rares market: 250 billion+.Most likely the largest trade in RuneScape ever. Estimated value at the peak of the rares market: 70 billion+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogact Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 Because belief in the existence of God is entirely faith based, there is no other way for a believer to reason His existence whithout starting from the premise that He exists. Since God's ways are not my ways, it would be folly for me to follow man's laws of logical reasoning. I have said many times before that I dont know all the answers, and in fact, I know very few. But I do know my Father. And I came to that knowledge through faith. I have seen with my eyes things happen in my life and the lives of others around me that cannot be explained any other way. I could give examples, but I am not writing this in attempt to convert anyone so I will not. (anyone who sincerely wants to know more may feel free to pm me) To you, others here may have shown that he probably does not exist, but I have not seen that. Call me gullible, illogical, unreasonable or whatever else you feel like, but I am secure in my faith and I have peace. jfroggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 It doesn't matter if religions are wrong! Religions offer absolutely no proof that God exists! This is actually a logical fallacy known as straw man. You're attacking our weakest argument; ironically it's not even an argument. Here's what I see your argument as: People misuse religion --> religions say God exist --> God doesn't exist. I don't see the link between the second and third points. People misuse politics --> polititians say a countries budget exists--> budgets do not exist. ^^ Using your logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XWifeBeaterX Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 umm yes I have but he says he can show that God probably doesnt exist and I havnt seen him do that. have you? Need to repeat everything I said already? 1) Theres absolutely no indication about the existance of a god. 2) Religions can get people do things they wouldn't do under normal circumstances: Religions were made to oppress and misuse people, and to keep people 'stupid' (for the lack of a better word). I gave plenty of examples about this so read my other posts for that. I'll add some more: - Religion made people think the whole universe was rotating around Earth, while Earth was rotating around the sun. - Religion made people think that Earth wasn't round. 3) There have been gods for everything and a lot of them were proven false by science. Good examples of this are: the god of thunder Thor (Viking god), the god of a good harvest (Egyptian god) and many, many others. Why would this god of creation exist then? People just make up gods for things they can't explain yet. But with so many gods proven false already it is not very likely that this god of creation will exist. 4) Different theories which are very likely to be true (like the Big Bang theory, evolution theory) show no indication about a god and show that everything that we have now happened through logical events. 5) God is supposed to be good? Yet we got so much evil around us. your not supposed to drink the bong water duke....oh almighty wise one :roll: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xx50centxx Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 These have been titles of a few of the articles found in newspapers and science journals in the last two or three years, as the Big Bang theory has received one body blow after another. And why not? We know that the universe did not begin with a big bang -- it will end with a big bang, for "but the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (II Peter 3:10). Cosmologists have thus miserably failed as to the time, nature, and cause of the Big Bang. Based on the Big Bang theory, cosmologists predicted that the distribution of matter throughout the universe would be homogeneous. Thus, based upon the so-called Cosmological Principle, it was postulated that the distribution of galaxies in the universe would be essentially uniform. No matter in which direction one looked, if one looked far enough, one would see the same number of galaxies. There would be no large scale clusters of galaxies or great voids in space. Recent research, however, has revealed massive superclusters of galaxies and vast voids in space. We exist in a very "clumpy" universe. :D My 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forsaken Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 What if you're not looking far enough? Maybe those clumps and huge vast voids in space are really just well, a galaxy of a galaxy? if you know what im getting at. I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xx50centxx Posted June 24, 2004 Share Posted June 24, 2004 yous got a point there........................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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