My Story.

[Voldmort0]

Interesting story. Insane how you played it all well to be able to manipulate prices "legally". In the end greed always wins :P Shame you didnt sell when they were between 50-70M. But then again, that's easy for me to criticize since I already know when the prices went down, eh? ;)

[Embraced]

Thank you for a very nice read.

 

It is quite amazing how one person can influence the market on such a big game.

[chris1216]

I said it before and I'll say it again-

 

 

 

This moron deserves nothing in the way of respect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight but I can't say that I completely agree with you.

 

 

 

First off I agree that price manipulation isn't right in real life.

 

 

 

But Runescape is a game. And the point of a game is to have fun and do good in it.

 

 

 

I understand that Runescape involves real people but it is still a game.

 

 

 

So what R2Pleasent did was in fact in the nature of "playing a game" he got good at it and had fun.

 

 

 

Next, life is about choices. If people fall for these manipulations it is there choice.

 

 

 

The big point I want to make is:

 

 

 

If you have a problem with what R2Pleasent did then you have to have a problem with rares in general. Every person who owns a rare or has owned a rare has taken part in a manipulation. The real worth of an item is the amount of gold you get for it when you high alch it.

 

 

 

Rares were introduced for the purpose of fun. And people turned it into something else.

 

 

 

So I'm not saying you are wrong but I don't completely agree with you. R2Pleasent was banned so I don't see the point in bashing him further. What's done is done. In the end it's a game. Don't get to caught up in it.

 

 

 

By your logic of "it's a game", why do people complain about being scammed, lured, or keylogged? They should all shut their traps and quit whining because after all, it's a game. People will naturally revert to their basic instincts of greed and giving others the shaft, so why are there even rules in place?

[SwreeTak]

Wow. I didn't know that one person could change so much of the RS market buy just buying and selling rares...I must say that I'm impressed.

[quitthegame]

 

By your logic of "it's a game", why do people complain about being scammed, lured, or keylogged? They should all shut their traps and quit whining because after all, it's a game. People will naturally revert to their basic instincts of greed and giving others the shaft, so why are there even rules in place?

 

 

 

scamming, luring, keylogging, are against the rules of the game. Price manipulation isn't.

 

 

 

The point "it's a game", is in relation to his argument that price manipulation is wrong in real life, but it's ok in the game. Kinda like how killing someone to take their items is wrong in real life, but ok in RS. It was a good argument, except for the fact that price manipulation is so obviously NOT wrong in real life, rendering his point moot.

[Artemis1330]

 

By your logic of "it's a game", why do people complain about being scammed, lured, or keylogged? They should all shut their traps and quit whining because after all, it's a game. People will naturally revert to their basic instincts of greed and giving others the shaft, so why are there even rules in place?

 

 

 

scamming, luring, keylogging, are against the rules of the game. Price manipulation isn't.

 

 

 

The point "it's a game", is in relation to his argument that price manipulation is wrong in real life, but it's ok in the game. Kinda like how killing someone to take their items is wrong in real life, but ok in RS. It was a good argument, except for the fact that price manipulation is so obviously NOT wrong in real life, rendering his point moot.

 

 

 

The following was taken DIRECTLY from the Runescape rules, by Jagex-

 

So what if another player is deliberately trying to increase the price of an item?

 

 

 

Purposefully trying to change the value of items is not allowed. The following examples are considered price manipulation:

 

 

 

Pretending to buy or sell when you have no intention of doing either. This includes pretending to sell to another player to raise/lower the price of an item.

 

Telling others to raise or lower the price of an item. For example, "OMG noob item X is worth so much more. Sell for this price."

 

Openly telling everyone to raise/lower a price, such as, "Listen here whip owners, we're going to push the price up to 10 mil; join me!"

 

Ganging up with other players to raise/lower a price by filling the forum with false threads, pretending to buy or sell items.

 

You are welcome to sell your items at whatever price you choose, but remember, choosing a high price for an item does not make the item worth that value. The chances are, you will fail to sell the item and push prospective buyers to another seller who has chosen a more modest price.

 

 

 

If you are unhappy with the price of an item, wait and trade it when the market is more to your liking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another player is advertising an item for a price he will not accept. Is this allowed?

 

 

 

No, we ask players not to create posts that have misleading price descriptions.

 

 

 

If you wish to sell items in the RuneScape Marketplace Forums, do not list them for a price you will not accept. Also, please do not include in the title that you are selling the items ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅcheapÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[chris1216]

 

By your logic of "it's a game", why do people complain about being scammed, lured, or keylogged? They should all shut their traps and quit whining because after all, it's a game. People will naturally revert to their basic instincts of greed and giving others the shaft, so why are there even rules in place?

 

 

 

scamming, luring, keylogging, are against the rules of the game. Price manipulation isn't.

 

 

 

The point "it's a game", is in relation to his argument that price manipulation is wrong in real life, but it's ok in the game. Kinda like how killing someone to take their items is wrong in real life, but ok in RS. It was a good argument, except for the fact that price manipulation is so obviously NOT wrong in real life, rendering his point moot.

 

 

 

Clearly you haven't done two important things:

 

 

 

1) Read the Code of Conduct on RSOF, a part of which I was going to post but was beaten to the punch on by Artemis

 

 

 

2) Ever heard of an idea called "antitrust laws", regardless of how well they are enforced

 

 

 

3) Actually understand the concept of PKing, which is literally just a form of gambling- when you walk into the wilderness you place your chips on the table (the items you'll lose if you die) and you compete with others to win their chips (items), not to mention the fact that no one dies in Runescape due to respawning

[quitthegame]

 

 

 

In short, price manipulation is considered item scamming by Jagex. Not much else to say, other then stop defending the breaking of Jagex rules.

 

 

 

I already answered this argument before you made it, but I'll repeat myself since you seem to need it. Price manipulation, were it allowed on the official forums, would result in a lot of spammy posts, huge amounts of them. This is the most plausible reason for it being disallowed on the forums. If price manipulation were considered item scamming, as you claim, then it would be listed under the item scamming rule for the actual game. But, it's not. Try harder next time, and don't try to claim that rules for the forum are rules for the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Clearly you haven't done two important things:

 

 

 

1) Read the Code of Conduct on RSOF, a part of which I was going to post but was beaten to the punch on by Artemis

 

 

 

2) Ever heard of an idea called "antitrust laws", regardless of how well they are enforced

 

 

 

 

 

Clearly you haven't read my earlier posts, which already answered your point number 1. (About 20 posts ago in this thread)

 

 

 

As to your point 2, yes, a small subset of price manipulation tactics have been made illegal, which was ALSO acknowledged in my earlier posts in this thread, 10 hours ago. However, illegal doesn't = wrong or immoral, it just means illegal. Currently abortion is legal in the US, but still 60% of people think it's morally ok, and 40% think it's not. If Bush appoints a new justice and the Supremes strike down Roe vs. Wade, then abortion will be illegal, and still 60% of people will think it's morally ok and 40% will think it's not. In any event, if you will read my earlier posts, you will find my explanation as to how nearly every price you pay has been legally manipulated, in the real world.

 

 

 

Your 3rd point that you added as an edit as I was replying, is both incoherent and irrelevant to any point I was actually making. A word of advice: when your longest paragraph is a debate about the semantics of a concept used as an example to illustrate a side point... you're missing the point.

[ego_scorpion]

Well said Flammacor. If price manipulation were allowed on forums people would make all sorts of fake buy and sell threads, which would in turn result in total chaos - thsu it is not allowed.

 

 

 

Overall however, price manipulation isnt illgeal and can be very effective, it just sucks to be caught on the wrong side of it and end up losing all youve worked so hard for.

[Triforceelf]

What he did wasn't so much price manipulation as realizing that things were undervalued and exploiting that hole in the market. Thats how brokers and mutuals make their money, and thats how he made his.

[Artemis1330]

He got good at breaking rules, rules that effect other players more then any. Oh, he had fun, sorry, it was all ok then. :roll:

 

 

 

which rule did he break?

 

 

 

See my above post.

 

 

 

Explain to me how someone could possibly CHOOSE to fall for any kind of manipulation. The point of a manipulation is to trick someone into doing something without them knowing. Sure, luring someone into the wild is obvious to avoid. But manipulating prices of a very rare item? help me out here...... :-k

 

 

 

They made a choice. The result of that choice was to go along with the price manipulation. The fact that they didn't realize what the result of their choice would be doesn't negate they fact that they made a choice. No one ever has perfect knowledge before making a choice, that's life.

 

 

 

Yes, they made a choice. They choose to notice the price increases, and go along with them. The point of a manipulation is to not let ANYONE know about it, or its actual consequences. How could any player have known about the secret group that was raising the prices? They could not have, other wise there would have been NO price increase! The fact they did not realize the result of their choice was all because they were lied to, with no way to prove otherwise.

 

 

 

Here's an example. Let's say I'm selling you a sandwich, and I know you're allergic to ham. Sadly, my sandwich is ham. If I trick you into believing the sandwich isn't ham, then I have manipulated you into believing a falsehood. To be perfectly clear, remember that it's possible for me to manipulate you into believing that without ever making that exact claim, which would be straight out lying.

 

 

 

You trick me into believing it is ham by lying to me. The fact you think you can do so with out down right saying "this is a ham sandwich" means nothing more then you were as manipulative as possible in your lying.

 

 

 

Now let's examine the manipulation of someone to believe that the sky is red, not blue. Now, upon first examination, this sounds exactly the same as the first example. But the sky is basically the best example of blue out there, if I convince you that the sky is red while you are looking right at the sky, have I manipulated you into believing a falsehood about the color of the sky, or have I manipulated you into switching the names for the colors red and blue?

 

 

 

This example is simply out of context. By making me think the sky is red, you have done like you said in your last line; you made me switch the names of red and blue. However, I still know what is red, and what is blue, even though these are now opposite what they were before.

 

 

 

Our final example, manipulating everyone to believe that the price of half wines is 30m instead of 9m. What exactly is the difference between the price of half wines, and what everyone thinks the price of half wines is? Personally, I see no difference at all. Therefore, it is impossible to convince everyone of a falsehood about the price of half wines, as their beliefs are tautologically the same as the price, such a falsehood is an obvious contradiction.

 

 

 

The difference of the real price, and what everyone was manipulated into believing the price should be is 21m gps. If it is impossible to convince everyone of a falsehood (i.e.-a lie), then how did everyone owning a half wine (except the group responsible of the lie) manage to get manipulated into believing the price is now 30m? It clearly did happen, so how?

 

 

 

So, we've established four categories of manipulation of another's ideas, a direct lie, a manipulation to believe a objectively falsifiable statement without lying, a manipulation to believe a nonfalsifiable statement of negative social utility due to inconsistency with current social standards, and a manipulation to achieve a nonfalsifiable statement that changes current social standards. Or more simply, 1-lying, 2-lying without actually lying, 3-something that sounds and acts like a lie despite not really being a lie, and 4-convincing everyone to believe the same new lie instead of the same old lie.

 

 

 

You gave four examples of manipulating and lying. The fact that they were done in different ways simply means, in order for the lie to work, they must be carried out in different ways. All of them are different forms of manipulation, or lying.

 

 

 

Manipulating someone else's ideas is certainly similar to lying, but it's not exactly the same, and you haven't even made a coherent moral argument as to why lying is wrong. Many moral systems not only allow, but strictly require lying, and most people lie, so this is a grievous omission on your part.

 

 

 

Manipulation is a synonym to lie. It is lying, but doing it skillfully. The point of this entire thing was not to make a "moral argument". As I have proven, manipulation is against the rules. Why do rules exist? To make the largest amount of people happy and secure. If manipulation was not wrong, if it actually DID benefit the most amount of people, why is it still against the rules? Give a credible example of a moral system that "strictly requires lying".

[the_tallest1]

Some scruples people have around here. Glad to know that "spam" question topics are what drive the Tip.It Community down and not people idolizing someone like this. He currently sells gp, and considering the amount he funnels it's not a stretch of the imagination to say it's bot based. Yeah worthy of praise to be sure.

 

 

 

Locking this for all the above reasons. You can enjoy the historical perspective of the story without falling over yourselves about someone who helps make this game worse.