15 replies to this topic

[hlpmee]

A Numeric Glance at Clan Citadel

This article aims to solve these questions:

1.How many weeks are needed to upgrade every buildings* to tier 7?
2.Can small clans afford tier 7 clan citadel?

*refer to upgradeable buildings: Citadel, Storehouse, Battlefield, Woodcutting, Mining, Firemaking, Smithing, Crafting, Summoning and Cooking.

Prerequisite knowledge

There’re several kinds of resources:

Timber from woodcutting, available in the beginning;
Stone/Ore/Precious Ore from mining, available after tier 2/3/4 citadel;
Charcoal from firemaking, also need Timber, available after tier 3 citadel;
Metal/Precious Bars from smithing, also need Ore, Precious Ore and Charcoal, available after tier 3/4 citadel;
Cloth from crafting, available after tier 5 citadel;
Minions from summoning, available after tier 5 citadel, can be used as any resource type;
Rations from cooking, available after tier 6 citadel.


Cost of upkeep and upgrade can be found in official knowledge base:
http://www.runescape...ep_upgrade_list


There’re individual resource caps, which increase with higher tier of storehouse:

1,000 at tier 1
1,200 at tier 2
1,400 at tier 3
1,700 at tier 4
2,000 at tier 5
2,350 at tier 6
2,700 at tier 7

Each time you contribute/collect resource, your “resource point” will increase. You can contribute/collect no more once it reaches the caps.
Minions from summoning is limited up to 1/10 caps. E.g. you can only gain 270 Minions at tier 7 storehouse.


There’re three tasks in smithing:
Filling furnace with ore;
Cooling molten metal;
Transfer cooled bars to the hatch.

I’m not sure it will use just one resource point or three. I assume it will use just one to contribute one Metal Bar or Precious Bar.


There’re three tasks in cooking:
Preparing raw fish for cooking;
Grilling fish on the barbeque;
Making a vegetable stew.

I’m not sure about this, too. I assume each task will use one resource point and contribute one Ration.


I quoted the reason of Individual Resource Caps from official knowledge base:

Quote

“Each individual has a resource cap. This is to limit the amount of work any one individual can do for their clan, so that the load is spread across all clanmates.”

A clan can keep spared resource to the next week (or build tick), at certain percentage and cap, which increase with higher tier of storehouse:

5% and 1,000 at tier 1
10% and 1,200 at tier 2
15% and 1,500 at tier 3
20% and 1,800 at tier 4
25% and 2,100 at tier 5
30% and 2,500 at tier 6
50% and 3,000 at tier 7

Only Timber, Stone, Cloth, Rations, Metal/Precious Bars can be kept;
Metal/Precious Bars “has 3x smaller percentage and cap”;
Minions, Charcoal, Ore, Precious Ore spoil.

E.g. at tier 7 storehouse, a clan has 6,000+ each of timber, stone, cloth, rations, metal/precious bars. In the next week, they will have exactly 3,000 each of timber, stone, cloth, rations, and 1,000 each of metal/precious bars.


I quoted the reason of Resource Spoiling:

Quote

“This is to stop large clans being able to shoot through the lower tiers by stockpiling up massive amounts of resource and then sitting back and doing nothing. It brings clans back each week – it also encourages clans to spend their resource pool and not just sit on it.”

Blueprint & Solution for Q1:




When a new spot built, need to wait whole week till it’s functional.
New building and upgrading are highlighted with green colors.

Tier 7 citadel can be achieved by week 12.

Quote

17 weeks are need to upgrade every buildings to tier 7.

Here’s details of timetable and cost to feed curiosity.

  

“%” is the percentage of resource points spent on the building. E.g. at week 11, 88.5% of resource points are spent on Citadel.

Here's summary cost

  

In order to achieve tier 7 citadel as fast as possible, about 415 members (469*88.5%) are needed at week 11.

The total* refers to resource points needed. Based on previous assumption, each bar requires 4 resources points.

At week 17 and afterward, need 35,280 “actual” resources (not resource points). 35,280 divided by 270 (1/10 of tier 7 cap) is 131.

Quote

That means 131 members are enough to support upkeep using Minions only.

Quote

It requires minimum 18 members to maintain upkeep (plus 50 visits)

(simple formula: 270X*4+2430X=61110, X=17.4)

I assume manpower is perfectly allocated.



Solution for Q2:

The following calculation could be annoying, please bear with me or jump to the conclusion.

I will use some abbr.

-> = roundup to closest integer

Uk = Upkeep, Ug = Upgrade

C = Citadel, S = Storehouse, B = Battlefield, W = Woodcutting,
M = Mining, F = Firemaking, Sm = Smithing,
Cf = Crafting, Su = Summoning, Co = Cooking

C7 = Citadel tier 7
Without a number means tier 1.

Amounts are in term of resource points, I assume “1 bar = 4 resource points”.

Caculation

To support C1
Uk = C+S+B+W = 1850
Ppl = Uk/1000 = 1.85 -> 2

To achieve C2
Ug2 = 12000
Ppl = (Uk+Ug2)/1000 = 13.85 -> 14

To support C2
Uk2 = C2+S2+B+W+M = 4650
Ppl = Uk2/1200 = 3.875 -> 4

To achieve C3
Ug3 = 32500
Ppl = (Uk2+Ug3)/1200 = 30.96 -> 31

To support C3
Uk3 = C3+S3+B+W+M3+F+Sm = 8730
Ppl = Uk3/1400 = 6.24 -> 7

To achieve C4
Ug4 = 92500
Ppl = (Uk3+Ug4)/1400 = 72.31 -> 73

To support C4
Uk4 = C4+S4+B+W+M4+F+Sm = 14090
Ppl = Uk4/1700 = 8.29 -> 9

To achieve C5
Ug5 = 205500
Ppl = (Uk4+Ug5)/1700 = 129.17 -> 130

To support C5
Uk5 = C5+S5+B+W+M4+F+Sm+Cf+Su = 20240
Ppl = Uk5/2000 = 10.12 -> 11

Alternative (using minions)
200X*4+1800X = 20240
X = 7.78 -> 8

To achieve C6
Ug6 = 425000
Ppl = (Uk5+Ug6)/2000 = 222.62 -> 223

(using minions)
200X*4+1800X = Uk5+Ug6
X = 171.25 -> 172

To support C6
Uk6 = C6+S7+B+W+M4+F+Sm+Cf+Su+Co = 33060
Ppl = Uk6/2700 = 12.24 -> 13

(using minions)
270X*4+2430X = 33060
X = 9.42 -> 10

To achieve C7
Ug7 = 946000
Ppl = (Uk6+Ug7)/2700 = 362.61 -> 363

(using minions)
270X*4+2430X = Uk6+Ug7
X = 278.93 -> 279

To support C7
Uk7 = C7+S7+B+W+M4+F+Sm+Cf+Su+Co = 51960
Ppl = Uk7/2700 = 19.24 -> 20

(using minions)
270X*4+2430X = 51960
X = 14.8 -> 15

To sum up:



E.g. In order to upgrade to Tier 7 citadel, need at least 279 members. or need 363 members if not using minions (but why not)
In order to maintain upkeep of Tier 7 citadel, need at least 15 members.


Writer’s opinions:

The idea of “caps” is unnecessary. I think Jagex should let clan leaders themselves find the solutions to motivate clanmates, instead of setting up these rules. Clan citadel is determined to be biased against small clans under these rules.

On the other hand, a clan needs hundreds of members to upgrade, but just a few to maintain upkeep. If a small clan “borrow” members from other clans, it’s still possible to build a glorious citadel.

There’re many other players complaining the problem of “citadel vs small clan”. I prophesy Jagex is going to open their mind a little bit more, and tune the “caps”.

Edited by hlpmee, 10 August 2011 - 07:36 AM.
Fixed some tags for you

[Sy_Accursed]

I find 1 flaw with your final conclusions on members needed:
Precious bars & Rations (i think it was rations might be a diff one) = 3 minions not 1

So you need 62,500 "actual resources" if I read your table right.
7090+2600+3920+(3*4690)+8060+(3*8920)

Which would actually be 232 members on minions only.

[Necromagus]

It looks like you've done some good research. Towed to the appropriate subforum, and fixed some tags for you.

-Necromagus, Tip.It Mod.

[Allmonkey]

The major flaw that will add several weeks is that the citadel must already be that level for you to upgrade something to that tier.  For example you couldn't upgrade tier 2 citadel and tier 2 woodcutting plot in the same week.  Also you can only upgrade only one medium building (aka battlefield/storehouse) each week, and only 2 skill plots each week.  

I was actually working on the total resources each week but I got busy with other things, I might get it done later next week.

[hlpmee]

Thanks all for the input.

We know few about how it works on this stage. All new findings are welcome.

New finding: higher tier of skill spot increases the speed of collecting resource (about 15%).

[Quyneax]

Thanks a lot for the research, very comprehensive . Also, seems DGS won't be getting a t7 citadel anytime soon.

[Crocefisso]

Thanks for this. It's confirmed to me that Citadels are a little too much work for my liking.  

Very comprehensive.

[Jonanananas]

Bars only need 3 resources, not 4, as charcoal doesn't need timber to produce

[Saradomin_Mage]

I thought the production of charcoal required the usage of your stocked up timber?

[Sy_Accursed]

Saradomin_Mage, on 03 September 2011 - 08:40 AM, said:

I thought the production of charcoal required the usage of your stocked up timber?

No the first wave of clans have built the fm plot now and all are reporting it does not use your actual timber.
It's just misleading wording from jagex in that at the plot you burn timber to make charcoal.
To compare two plots:
Tree roots are to Timber resource as Timber is to charcoal resource.
The first two don't exist as anything other than a graphical representation of something to work at/with to produce the later; which is a tangible "item" of use

[Saradomin_Mage]

Apparently the exchange rate is 10 charcoal resource from 1 timber resource.
According to 3BO's citadel planning, at least.

[Pinta77]

The citadels are still fairly new. I have a feeling there will be some edits.

[Esper_Jones]

Saradomin_Mage, on 04 September 2011 - 12:54 PM, said:

Apparently the exchange rate is 10 charcoal resource from 1 timber resource.
According to 3BO's citadel planning, at least.

From the citadel I'm in, I've used 1200 resource two weeks straight on the firemaking plot, and the count of timber resources never went down.

[Obelisk]

Hey, I stumbled upon this topic through Google. And I was wondering why there are still not any Tier 7 Clan Citadels on RS. We're now 22-23 weeks after July 26th, and in this topic I read that they should have gotten to Tier 7 by week 17 already. Is it a mistake in the calculations or what do I have to make of this?

I can hardly find any information other than this topic as to how long it takes to get to Tier 7. Weird, really!

[Sy_Accursed]

The numbers will be off.
If you look at the info and charts a few mistakes have been included:
1) Charcoal does not need timber
2) You cannot upgrade battlefield AND store house in the same week
3) You cannot upgrade more than 2 skill plots a week.

Plus this relies on the assumption that you get enough people up to the citadel and working each week to actually meet costs in a single week for each thing; even the biggest clans (that care about citadel) are hard pushed to do a complete tier upgrade in a single week for the later tiers. I believe max clan (when the rs fb was doing notes about their progress) took 2 weeks to pay for T5, which was the start of October.
I mean, for example, tier 4 upgrade is about 17k timber, 15k stone, 15k bars, bars cost 3 resources so that's 77k resources; plus upkeep which is around 10k total assuming all t3 maxed. So 87k total to get t4 in 1 weeks work, T3 store gives 1400 cap so you'd need 63 members to do it in a single week if they all capped out. Taking a more realistic estimate of the avergae clan member doing maybe 500 or so you'd be looking at 174 members needing to do work.

Long story short: I'm fairly certain no-one has got to t7 yet, if they had there'd probably be lots of pictures floating around somewhere for it. Plus given jagex's ongoing hope I feel we'd get some sort of news about the first wave of clans reaching t7.

[Obelisk]

Thanks for the reply. And you were right, Jagex would indeed announce it:

QFC: 254,255,147,63492355

10/01/2012 it is then. 168 days after the update was made...