hlpmee Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) A Numeric Glance at Clan Citadel This article aims to solve these questions: 1.How many weeks are needed to upgrade every buildings* to tier 7?2.Can small clans afford tier 7 clan citadel? *refer to upgradeable buildings: Citadel, Storehouse, Battlefield, Woodcutting, Mining, Firemaking, Smithing, Crafting, Summoning and Cooking. [spoiler=Prerequisite knowledge] There’re several kinds of resources: Timber from woodcutting, available in the beginning;Stone/Ore/Precious Ore from mining, available after tier 2/3/4 citadel;Charcoal from firemaking, also need Timber, available after tier 3 citadel;Metal/Precious Bars from smithing, also need Ore, Precious Ore and Charcoal, available after tier 3/4 citadel;Cloth from crafting, available after tier 5 citadel;Minions from summoning, available after tier 5 citadel, can be used as any resource type;Rations from cooking, available after tier 6 citadel. Cost of upkeep and upgrade can be found in official knowledge base:http://www.runescape.com/kbase/guid/clan_citadel_upkeep_upgrade_list There’re individual resource caps, which increase with higher tier of storehouse: 1,000 at tier 11,200 at tier 21,400 at tier 3 1,700 at tier 42,000 at tier 52,350 at tier 62,700 at tier 7 Each time you contribute/collect resource, your “resource point” will increase. You can contribute/collect no more once it reaches the caps.Minions from summoning is limited up to 1/10 caps. E.g. you can only gain 270 Minions at tier 7 storehouse. There’re three tasks in smithing:Filling furnace with ore;Cooling molten metal;Transfer cooled bars to the hatch. I’m not sure it will use just one resource point or three. I assume it will use just one to contribute one Metal Bar or Precious Bar. There’re three tasks in cooking:Preparing raw fish for cooking;Grilling fish on the barbeque;Making a vegetable stew. I’m not sure about this, too. I assume each task will use one resource point and contribute one Ration. I quoted the reason of Individual Resource Caps from official knowledge base:“Each individual has a resource cap. This is to limit the amount of work any one individual can do for their clan, so that the load is spread across all clanmates.” A clan can keep spared resource to the next week (or build tick), at certain percentage and cap, which increase with higher tier of storehouse: 5% and 1,000 at tier 110% and 1,200 at tier 215% and 1,500 at tier 320% and 1,800 at tier 425% and 2,100 at tier 530% and 2,500 at tier 650% and 3,000 at tier 7 Only Timber, Stone, Cloth, Rations, Metal/Precious Bars can be kept;Metal/Precious Bars “has 3x smaller percentage and cap”;Minions, Charcoal, Ore, Precious Ore spoil. E.g. at tier 7 storehouse, a clan has 6,000+ each of timber, stone, cloth, rations, metal/precious bars. In the next week, they will have exactly 3,000 each of timber, stone, cloth, rations, and 1,000 each of metal/precious bars. I quoted the reason of Resource Spoiling:“This is to stop large clans being able to shoot through the lower tiers by stockpiling up massive amounts of resource and then sitting back and doing nothing. It brings clans back each week – it also encourages clans to spend their resource pool and not just sit on it.” Blueprint & Solution for Q1: When a new spot built, need to wait whole week till it’s functional.New building and upgrading are highlighted with green colors. Tier 7 citadel can be achieved by week 12.17 weeks are need to upgrade every buildings to tier 7. Here’s details of timetable and cost to feed curiosity.[spoiler= ]“%” is the percentage of resource points spent on the building. E.g. at week 11, 88.5% of resource points are spent on Citadel. Here's summary cost[spoiler= ] In order to achieve tier 7 citadel as fast as possible, about 415 members (469*88.5%) are needed at week 11. The total* refers to resource points needed. Based on previous assumption, each bar requires 4 resources points. At week 17 and afterward, need 35,280 “actual” resources (not resource points). 35,280 divided by 270 (1/10 of tier 7 cap) is 131. That means 131 members are enough to support upkeep using Minions only. It requires minimum 18 members to maintain upkeep (plus 50 visits)(simple formula: 270X*4+2430X=61110, X=17.4) I assume manpower is perfectly allocated. Solution for Q2: The following calculation could be annoying, please bear with me or jump to the conclusion. [spoiler=I will use some abbr.] -> = roundup to closest integer Uk = Upkeep, Ug = Upgrade C = Citadel, S = Storehouse, B = Battlefield, W = Woodcutting,M = Mining, F = Firemaking, Sm = Smithing,Cf = Crafting, Su = Summoning, Co = Cooking C7 = Citadel tier 7Without a number means tier 1. Amounts are in term of resource points, I assume “1 bar = 4 resource points”. [spoiler=Caculation]To support C1Uk = C+S+B+W = 1850Ppl = Uk/1000 = 1.85 -> 2 To achieve C2Ug2 = 12000Ppl = (Uk+Ug2)/1000 = 13.85 -> 14 To support C2Uk2 = C2+S2+B+W+M = 4650Ppl = Uk2/1200 = 3.875 -> 4 To achieve C3Ug3 = 32500Ppl = (Uk2+Ug3)/1200 = 30.96 -> 31 To support C3Uk3 = C3+S3+B+W+M3+F+Sm = 8730Ppl = Uk3/1400 = 6.24 -> 7 To achieve C4Ug4 = 92500Ppl = (Uk3+Ug4)/1400 = 72.31 -> 73 To support C4Uk4 = C4+S4+B+W+M4+F+Sm = 14090Ppl = Uk4/1700 = 8.29 -> 9 To achieve C5Ug5 = 205500Ppl = (Uk4+Ug5)/1700 = 129.17 -> 130 To support C5Uk5 = C5+S5+B+W+M4+F+Sm+Cf+Su = 20240Ppl = Uk5/2000 = 10.12 -> 11 Alternative (using minions)200X*4+1800X = 20240X = 7.78 -> 8 To achieve C6Ug6 = 425000Ppl = (Uk5+Ug6)/2000 = 222.62 -> 223 (using minions)200X*4+1800X = Uk5+Ug6X = 171.25 -> 172 To support C6Uk6 = C6+S7+B+W+M4+F+Sm+Cf+Su+Co = 33060Ppl = Uk6/2700 = 12.24 -> 13 (using minions)270X*4+2430X = 33060X = 9.42 -> 10 To achieve C7Ug7 = 946000Ppl = (Uk6+Ug7)/2700 = 362.61 -> 363 (using minions)270X*4+2430X = Uk6+Ug7X = 278.93 -> 279 To support C7Uk7 = C7+S7+B+W+M4+F+Sm+Cf+Su+Co = 51960Ppl = Uk7/2700 = 19.24 -> 20 (using minions)270X*4+2430X = 51960X = 14.8 -> 15 To sum up: E.g. In order to upgrade to Tier 7 citadel, need at least 279 members. or need 363 members if not using minions (but why not)In order to maintain upkeep of Tier 7 citadel, need at least 15 members. Writer’s opinions: The idea of “caps” is unnecessary. I think Jagex should let clan leaders themselves find the solutions to motivate clanmates, instead of setting up these rules. Clan citadel is determined to be biased against small clans under these rules. On the other hand, a clan needs hundreds of members to upgrade, but just a few to maintain upkeep. If a small clan “borrow” members from other clans, it’s still possible to build a glorious citadel. There’re many other players complaining the problem of “citadel vs small clan”. I prophesy Jagex is going to open their mind a little bit more, and tune the “caps”. Edited August 10, 2011 by hlpmee Fixed some tags for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sy_Accursed Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I find 1 flaw with your final conclusions on members needed:Precious bars & Rations (i think it was rations might be a diff one) = 3 minions not 1 So you need 62,500 "actual resources" if I read your table right.7090+2600+3920+(3*4690)+8060+(3*8920) Which would actually be 232 members on minions only. Operation Gold Sparkles :: Chompy Kills :: Full Profound :: Champions :: Barbarian Notes :: Champions Tackle Box :: MA RewardsDragonkin Journals :: Ports Stories :: Elder Chronicles :: Boss Slayer :: Penance King :: Kal'gerion Titles :: Gold Statue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromagus Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 It looks like you've done some good research. Towed to the appropriate subforum, and fixed some tags for you. -Necromagus, Tip.It Mod. My Tip.It Times Articles (10 and counting) || The Varrock Library Author Index projectDo you dare to dream? - Part 19 added. || The Hospital (WIP) - New story!Necromagus looks like a viking ... with glasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allmonkey Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 The major flaw that will add several weeks is that the citadel must already be that level for you to upgrade something to that tier. For example you couldn't upgrade tier 2 citadel and tier 2 woodcutting plot in the same week. Also you can only upgrade only one medium building (aka battlefield/storehouse) each week, and only 2 skill plots each week. I was actually working on the total resources each week but I got busy with other things, I might get it done later next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlpmee Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 Thanks all for the input. We know few about how it works on this stage. All new findings are welcome. New finding: higher tier of skill spot increases the speed of collecting resource (about 15%). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyneax Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Thanks a lot for the research, very comprehensive :). Also, seems DGS won't be getting a t7 citadel anytime soon. Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions 99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011) 99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012) 99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012) 99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013) 99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013) Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace 30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crocefisso Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Thanks for this. It's confirmed to me that Citadels are a little too much work for my liking. :mrgreen: Very comprehensive. "Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me." - H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonanananas Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Bars only need 3 resources, not 4, as charcoal doesn't need timber to produce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saradomin_Mage Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I thought the production of charcoal required the usage of your stocked up timber? In real life MMO you don't get 99 smithing by making endless bronze daggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sy_Accursed Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I thought the production of charcoal required the usage of your stocked up timber? No the first wave of clans have built the fm plot now and all are reporting it does not use your actual timber.It's just misleading wording from jagex in that at the plot you burn timber to make charcoal.To compare two plots:Tree roots are to Timber resource as Timber is to charcoal resource.The first two don't exist as anything other than a graphical representation of something to work at/with to produce the later; which is a tangible "item" of use Operation Gold Sparkles :: Chompy Kills :: Full Profound :: Champions :: Barbarian Notes :: Champions Tackle Box :: MA RewardsDragonkin Journals :: Ports Stories :: Elder Chronicles :: Boss Slayer :: Penance King :: Kal'gerion Titles :: Gold Statue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saradomin_Mage Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Apparently the exchange rate is 10 charcoal resource from 1 timber resource.According to 3BO's citadel planning, at least. In real life MMO you don't get 99 smithing by making endless bronze daggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinta77 Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 The citadels are still fairly new. I have a feeling there will be some edits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esper_Jones Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Apparently the exchange rate is 10 charcoal resource from 1 timber resource.According to 3BO's citadel planning, at least. From the citadel I'm in, I've used 1200 resource two weeks straight on the firemaking plot, and the count of timber resources never went down. Jack of all trades, master of thieving. 259th to 99 thieving. All stats 75+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelisk Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Hey, I stumbled upon this topic through Google. And I was wondering why there are still not any Tier 7 Clan Citadels on RS. We're now 22-23 weeks after July 26th, and in this topic I read that they should have gotten to Tier 7 by week 17 already. Is it a mistake in the calculations or what do I have to make of this? I can hardly find any information other than this topic as to how long it takes to get to Tier 7. Weird, really! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sy_Accursed Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 The numbers will be off.If you look at the info and charts a few mistakes have been included:1) Charcoal does not need timber2) You cannot upgrade battlefield AND store house in the same week3) You cannot upgrade more than 2 skill plots a week. Plus this relies on the assumption that you get enough people up to the citadel and working each week to actually meet costs in a single week for each thing; even the biggest clans (that care about citadel) are hard pushed to do a complete tier upgrade in a single week for the later tiers. I believe max clan (when the rs fb was doing notes about their progress) took 2 weeks to pay for T5, which was the start of October.I mean, for example, tier 4 upgrade is about 17k timber, 15k stone, 15k bars, bars cost 3 resources so that's 77k resources; plus upkeep which is around 10k total assuming all t3 maxed. So 87k total to get t4 in 1 weeks work, T3 store gives 1400 cap so you'd need 63 members to do it in a single week if they all capped out. Taking a more realistic estimate of the avergae clan member doing maybe 500 or so you'd be looking at 174 members needing to do work. Long story short: I'm fairly certain no-one has got to t7 yet, if they had there'd probably be lots of pictures floating around somewhere for it. Plus given jagex's ongoing hope I feel we'd get some sort of news about the first wave of clans reaching t7. Operation Gold Sparkles :: Chompy Kills :: Full Profound :: Champions :: Barbarian Notes :: Champions Tackle Box :: MA RewardsDragonkin Journals :: Ports Stories :: Elder Chronicles :: Boss Slayer :: Penance King :: Kal'gerion Titles :: Gold Statue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelisk Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Thanks for the reply. And you were right, Jagex would indeed announce it: QFC: 254,255,147,63492355 10/01/2012 it is then. 168 days after the update was made... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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