compfreak847

Mmm... Dh scares me tbh, I don't like the feeling of being 2 hits away from death. I like void, it's a good 100 crimson per hour, without HP ever dropping very low, and not many protection prayers required.

True, but considering that the staff would probably the most valuable item in any mage set up, you'll probably keep it. Oh, and I love your "Verac Obama" signature. True, but you'll be risking other items as well. And there is a chance of losing it. I had to use it because you were advocating 'pure' combat styles - yes, mage fails against range armor. Pull out a whip and own, though... With ice\blood\shadow\smoke barrage, you have the upper hand, period. Oh, and the 'verac obama' is good, but I'm still voting Mccain :P

See, piety is less efficient at the earning methods we're using, so we are limited to +10% strength, giving us an average of 60k melee XP at 100% attention.

Even at half it's cheaper then the 30k per shot javelin- honestly, who would spend that much for pking? There's a fine line between 'spending a lot of money to hit a bit harder' and 'spending massive amounts of money to hit a bit harder' :|

^^ Cost, and lack of testing. Miasmic is using the staff for ~2 seconds for a 2:1 advantage that lasts nearly a minute.

But that's basically true with any combat. Only a single combat style is doomed to failure, with the possible exception of range tanks. Magic is the easiest to do multiple combat styles with of the three; and is arguably even more useful outside of PVP. And miasmic barrage pretty much ends any 'mage sucks' arguments, except for the cost - but if you only use the staff for 2-3 seconds per cast, it isn't that bad.

Ok, so mage isn't the best combat style against rangers by itself... But no one does that, so what are you trying to say? Mage has so many applications besides 'just' fighting with mage. A player who simply melees is going to get owned by a mage, unless he has range armor - then the mage can simply equip a dd++ and tear him into nice small pieces. No mage is going to try to kill a ranger without magic armor - obviously this isn't going to work. Same goes for mage against a meleer wearing range - the mage can simply melee in his armor, with virtually the same slash defence. Yes, Karils top or +7 so slash defence compared to ahrims top, and the bottom is -7 or so. Tiny difference that aren't really going to do much - in ahrims, I have over 250 slash defence with a large mage bonus. That and a whip\dd++ are going to take out any meleer out there - and a DH plate will take care of the rangers. Plus, even if I'm simply meleeing or ranging, vengeance is going to give me a virtually guaranteed win against any one with levels similar to mine. If you took melee out of the game, combat levels would be lowered, there would be a reduction in PKers, and some boss monsters would become tougher. Slayer would become harder. If you took range out of the game, there would be a small reduction in PKers, and corporal beast would become tougher If you took magic out of the game, there would be a huge reduction in PKers (Anyone could run and tele without restraint; not many people, offered the choice between clicking that tablet 'without honor' or dying and losing everything to be 'honorable' are going to stand there and die. Not many boss monsters would become harder, but the entire economy would collapse. Skills such as fletching, woodcutting, and runecrafting would die. All GP would eventually be drained out of the system, and training summoning would become much harder. There would be no teleporting, so everyone would be walking. It could truly 'kill' runescape. Castle wars and FOG Using magic with melee\range is invaluable and will give an enormous advantage to whoever uses it. Magic, by itself, is very powerful, and in rare cases where it does not suffice, a whip and a backup armor will give a huge advantage over your opponents dragonhide - which, if he is dumb enough to take off, can be barraged then sidestepped for 5-6 hits without taking any damage, then resuming normal combat with much higher defence then him. Nice editing of your OP, though. You completely changed the thread after you were proven wrong -.-

^^^ They don't make good junk. You can make ~1m per hour - but your spending 750k on the trading sticks, so your making 250k 'profit' per hour, but anything you use to buy\sell the junk is only receiving 1/4th of the advantage. There is currently no good junk making methods.

Ehh? Ahrim slash defence > karils slash defence. If you melee, you have the advantage. Veracs skirt + Karils top will make Melee more effective than Mage for the most part, making them Melee. Add a veracs skirt to your ahrims?

Ehh? Ahrim slash defence > karils slash defence. If you melee, you have the advantage.

But, usually, they'll have some dragonhide to slap on. Cheap, effective, and does not reduce melee stats. True, they'll still be frozen, but with protect item, even if they started it, they won't lose their Godsword. If you die, you'll lose every one of your runes. They slap on dragonhide, you can melee them, attacking and sidestepping to not get hit - and your ahrims have HIGHER SLASH DEFENCE then their armor. If they put on melee armor, you can simply continue to mage them. And losing your runes really isn't that big of a concern; the cost is far outstripped by melee\range\mage armor.

I mean when magic sucks when training is the fact that there are very minimal amounts of options like from 55 to 70 what did you do? Alc? And when you ask 95% of rs players how they trained magic they will say "alc" or DKS. How does range cost you more than 500k from 55 to 70 j/w. Magic feels endless when training forever and with melee or range I can almost AFK train. I love maging but it is RSI prone when training and it is fast to train but there is almost no way to get it up by making money except MTA which is boring as hell (telekentic theater) and DKS which can be a little fun. Did you read the whole thread or just the title? Ancients are practically dead in Pvp because of people being able to attack you when your farcasting someone. Lunars is what i consider a "Skillers Handbook" With spells like "Bake Pie" or "String Amulets". No one is ever going to Pvp Kill someone using only magic in the lunar spellbook because Vengeance is the only spell that does any damage. Sure Vengeance is great but what if your opponent hits a 4 on you and you do 3 damage to them? And lastly Vengeance DDS is good but DDS is melee and I am complaining about the unreliability of magic and magic alone. 'Scuse me? Alching happens to be 65k XP per hour - more then you get powertraining range, and it STILL isn't even close to the best magic training, superheating, which also happens to be the fastest way to training smithing AND magic - at the same time! I also did quite a bit of training at MTA - 85-90k XP per hour, at a low cost. What? Just because someone else is going to attack you doesn't mean they will. The only place that really applies is fight pits or clan wars, where you can use multi spells to do much more damage. And vengeance is an UNBELIEVABLE asset in fight pits. By the time your opponent kills you, your veng will have done 30-40 damage by itself - a 40% advantage. Take it from an experienced fight pits player (5.5 furys). Spellbook swap also means you can HALVE the speed of your opponents attack, for another 100% advantage - giving you 2.4 times the hitting power over an opponent of your level. Then you cast another veng. What if they AGS spec you for 78 and you veng them for 59 while speccing them back for another 78 and an instant KO? Magic alone will KILL melee alone. Melee alone will KILL Range alone. Range alone will KILL Magic alone. You can't go arguing about only one combat style; everyone switches them up. Melee is NO GOOD without range behind it. Any half decent mage will DESTROY a meleer. It's the combat triangle. People don't just go with one combat style; the few that do stand there and whine about farcasting while getting ripped apart by ice barrages. Not quite the same - and you generally have to pay for an AGS, unless you have a generous friend. That 200k per hour for 1 spec every 3 minutes is going to cost you more then your barrages, or 300k for 20 = 15k per spec - and whip is a better weapon for non-spec meleeing.

Boring? No more boring then alching, slightly more clicking then training range. Who cares about charging being taken away? It was a terribly inefficient method of training magic, and virtually no one trained with it. It's like complaining that, say, orge bows rose 3 gp in price. No effect on training, because it wasn't being used anyway. Ahrim's top and bottom slash defence: +67 Karl's top and bottom slash defence: +62. Take out your whip and smack that meleer upside the head, you've got more defence them him. If he's stuipd enough to switch to melee armor while your owning him (which he probably is), proceed to barrage then whiprun him if he puts on range armor again. What you said has no effect on BTP. Freezing spells are not about equal to god spells with all things considered. What are you talking about? The best god spells will reduce your stats by a VERY tiny amount, without being autocasted. Instead, ancient spells will reduce your stats by 15-30%, freeze you for 20 seconds, heal you quite a bit, poison your opponents, and halve the speed of their attacks. All while hitting just as high as the god spells, CHARGED, with specific capes and staffs - you can't cast a god spell with a whip. Alching is what keeps our economy running; ALL GP in the game, aside from a small amount of store purchases and monster drops, comes from alching - and every GWD drop takes several million coins out of the game. Attack slowing spells are good for virtually ever combat situation, even more so for PVP - casting ONE of these spells before switching to melee will HALVE the damage you take. Believe it or not, people switch combat styles and armor - that ranger has less melee defence then you; switch to a dh plate for range defence, and rip him apart with dd++ specs. My standard mage outfit looks like this: Verac helm Hitpoints Cape Fury Ammy Diamond bolts (e) Dragonfire shield AH top Ancient staff AH bottom Barrows Gloves Dragon Boots Seer's Ring +254 slash, +116 magic, +164 range defence - with +12 prayer and +73 magic bonus. Enough that you can destroy a ranger quite quickly by switching to DH plate (for another 80 or so range defence) and speccing him to death. Oh, and you have much more defence then most meleers in karils - in fact, you've got more melee defence then your average meleer in rune\fighter torso, d legs, berserker helm.

As for maxes, your using the wrong example. Magic is all about combos (see my sig for a good example). Let's try one unknown but powerful combo: Ice blitz + shaddow barrage A little over 3k, somewhat less then dragonfire bolts that can (sometimes) be picked up. Max: 50 damage in a single hit. D fire: 60 damage in a single hit. One key difference, though - both the magic attacks will hit almost 75% of the time on melee armor. The range special is very, very rare. The magic special, besides almost always hitting, will freeze your opponent for 15 seconds AND reduce their attack by 15%, canceling out a super potion. That freeze time can be used to deliver 3 MORE combos, for a total of 200 damage, and an attack redcution to 15% below their base level, regardless of what they are potted to. The minute they are unfrozen, you can run away for 2 seconds - then repeat, almost never getting hit. Very, very effective - assuming your spells are hitting (as they should, with a good magic bonus), you are dealing out an average of 100 damage, 200 max, before your opponent can even touch you! Furthermore, you could freeze and then follow up with 5 blood barrages - dealing an average of 85 damage, and healing yourself 18 damage per freeze, dishing out and healing as much as 9 times that if you are in a multi combat zone, against a lot of enemies. All before they can even touch you, unless they are ranging with a long distance weapon, where the combat triangle comes into play.

Trading sticks aren't a good way of making junk. You spend 3/4ths of the final value of the product, and it can't be made that fast. But yes, the limit is 10k every 4 hours.

Magic is expensive. But there are many, many uses for it - barrows and daggy kings are NOT the main use for it. It excells in almost any type of PVP combat, and teleports\BTP\freezing\alching\attack slowing spells are invalbule. The extra cost is due to the huge advantages it gives. Ruby bolts are 359 each, and max 19. The special rarely activates, and is only worth using on a few boss monsters. AGS costs 60m, can only be used once every 2.5 minutes, has a very slow attack speed, and frequently hits 0s. Magic training is both faster and cheaper then range training. Superheating ores is nearly 90k XP per hour, with very little loss or a slight profit. Charging is an incredibly stupid and expensive method of training magic - one that is only slightly faster then bursting\barraging rock lobsters, which happens to be the best method of training summoning AND magic.

It would only reduce the xp slightly, and the profit by not that much. And this is for lowel-levels really. Can anyone help me with the picture problem. Same way you would do it on a windows PC - go to imageshack.us, find your picture, hit upload, copy the link into here under the 'img' tag. Frankly, even a very low level should be able to earn 160k per hour - there are so many methods, such as d hide tanning, that give more then that.

Your rates seem rather low. Powermining iron is generally considered to be around 45k XP per hour. Here goes another 'efficiency calculation', soon to have Inushkant come along and ruin it :P 45k XP, 0 profit Powermining 25.9k XP, 68,820 profit Bankmining Powermining = saving 25.5 minutes at a cost of 68,820 GP for: 161,929 GP per hour break even rate. Given that anyone with 70 range can earn far more then that at Avansies, this guide is really only useful for low level players - who would probably not have 52 summoning, further reducing the XP\profit.

You've changed, not the game. In the past two years, the community has gone uphill, especially after the wildy updates, although PVP worlds resulted in a slight downturn. Still, it's very easy to find friends - my list is always full - and the ignore\chat off options provide easy ways to deal with annoying people. Yes, as you grow more experienced, the thrill of discovery is rarer; but that can be replaced by other enjoyable pursuits, such as tough fights and extensive knowledge about certain parts of the game, which can be used to your advantage. There are more ways to have fun then wandering around figuring out what to do.

Try greys again. Use +15% range, potting every 5 levels (3 if you want to compare to my level), and starting XP after setups - the total XP per trip will very depending on length; the best way to do it is without setup, so that setup XP reduction can be later calculated and used to determine the effects on overall XP for various trip lengths.

I brought up the ROW as with the Berserker Ring, or even the Warrior, you would get a slightly higher rate per hour. A ROW doesn't affect that but it does have an effect on the profit per hour. I brought up the DFS for tasks where you have to kill Dragons. Baby Black Dragons, while they do not have a firebreath attack, the Green Dragon in the vicinity does. For Mithril Dragons, the extra +7 Strength bonus helps and the Defence bonuses are invaluable. Whether you decide to use protect from melee or magic, this shield will provied better Defences in either aspect. Also at Skeletal Wyverns, not only is the Strength bonus helpful but also the Defence bonuses. I do not use any protect prayers at Wyverns even though both Qeltar and Zarfot do. Piety here combined with the Defences also me to comlpete the task in one trip depending on its size. It helps slightly (~3%) on baby blacks and somewhat at wyverns; however, I usually range mith drags - where it is semi-helpful but not any huge gain; even the +7 strength is at most a ~1% XP bonus, due to the 1/3 or lower hitting rates. The multicombat at Nechryaels and Dust Devils provides more of a bonus than you think. You do not need to wait until the one you are attacking is dead for you to move on the next. Like you mentioned before, if you think it is dead and run off to the next. In the Slayer Tower you would lose time, in the Chaos Tunnels you do not. Same principle as with Dust Devils. At Dust Devils when on Slayer I do not use piety or void and I get 100 crimsons per hour, which is about 110 with gold, green and blue calculated in. So unless the Slayer helm and +10% Strength prayer increases the kill rate by 33% (125 compared to 94, 94 was for the same weapon), which could be the case, but if it isn't, then he simply isn't going as well as he could be. This applies to every other task really where he isn't going as well as can be done. Hold on. Last time you talked about waterfiends on slayer, you said you got 140 crimsons worth per hour - and piety has a much larger effect then slayer helm; yet I get 10% less crimsons per hour then you. And I've spent almost 50 hours at waterfiends - I'm very efficient there. And my 100 crimson rate with void\piety is perfectly comparable to his 94 rate at straight 99 melees. Yes you will also note how much melee experience you get. The point is you do not need to have it on a Slayer task. Wear the same equipment in both cases, but on one test use a cannon. That is all that is required. No, because you are getting over twice your melee XP from pure melee vs. cannon with melee, meaning that anything that boosts melee XP will affect your non cannon results much more. Huh? Did I not mention I haven't tested how many cannonballs are used per hour? Also, what were my "assume ones"? When I said 80k in Chaos Tunnels and 100k with Range? Those were not made up. I get just a bit over 80k melee experience on average in the Chaos Tunnels while on Slayer. I got the the rate via Range in Taverly Dungeon from Zarfot's guide. No, but you did mention that Qeltar only used 1.2k c balls per hour (dagganoths), 2.4k c balls per hour (aberrant specters), 1.7k c balls per hour (bloodvields), and 1.5k per hour (kalphites), letting me use 2.7k as an above average number to avoid argument, as a lower number would only make cannon worse. No it does not. Did I not just actually mention this before? The supplies used to actually train Summoning costs about 80mil from 1-99. The time it takes to train the kill that much is less than 13 hours. Any extra cost you are adding is due to how you are collecting charms. If you are training Slayer, then you are training Slayer, the charms are bonus drops that add no time to you training Slayer. Therefore you are essentially getting them using up no time yourself in this case. The amount of 33% was an assumption. But you are comparing slayer charms to other, more efficient methods - the only fair comparison is to the most efficient methods of obtaining charms. The fact that you think the can be compared means you have no idea how to do this. Who says the melee experience is 50% of the total? Have you actually tested this? Do you actually know this? Or did you make this number up too? They cannot be compared. You are purposely skewing the results to without a cannon, so how is that a fair test? You give it alot of additional bonuses, but only to the test without a cannon. It is like getting two level 138's to fight (or any levels for that matter), but one of them can't use any armour or weapons. How is that a fair fight? They can be compared quite easily. We use qeltar's results for melee without cannon vs. his with cannon. You don't understand that this is quite easy to do. His melee rate isn't instantly going to jump when he uses cannon; if anything it will drop more then the time wasted. Therefore, it is very simple to deduce % melee and % cannon XP accurately. Maybe they forgot? There has been one person that has asked what 287 meant and then remember it was to show if you had read that section. Why would he need to read every single reply? If he had read every single one and then posted exactly the same thing, would you believe him then? You may get at your levels 59.7k, I cannot argue that. At my levels I get over 65k. I also average over 20k Slayer experience per hour, you can only get 14.9k. Just because you cannot, that does not mean that nobody can. I do not even pay 100% attention either, there is no such thing as 100% attention. Because he wouldn't know what our numbers were unless he had actually read; he might have glanced over our posts, found some spot where you or I was quoting a number for a specific task, not realizing that it wasn't a generalization. You use a cannon; proven to be inefficient. I work at better then 98% conentration, going very efficiently and wasting very little time. Therefore, your numbers simply cannot be that much higher - one of us is either mistaken or lying, and I've got screenshots to prove anything you want. Also note that Qeltar is the only one for whom we have detailed information for rates, instead of trying to extrapolate Zarfot's slayer rates without knowing the effects of cannons or prayers. It isn't simply a matter of maxing out. Total levels and experience are used at evey level, not just at 2376 total. As for saying only 83 Players have maxed out, you have to remember that it takes a long time to do that. Everyone puts a different amount of effort into reaching those goals. If your going for total levels, there are far more skills that can be maxed out much more efficiently then training slayer at level 80 or 85; a point covered in my original post. Total levels are shown in highscores, so yes other people can look at it. There is no sacrifice to train it, unless they are training at your rate. I personally feel that if you can only get that much experience from Slayer at that level, everythin else you are getting is also very questionable. How many people's total level do you look up and think 'wow, that person really is a high level! That extra 100 hours they spent getting their total level up 20 levels with slayer really makes me admire and like them'. For most players, there are much faster ways to level total then training slayer. Tell me, what is the point in training Woodcutting or Firemaking? Woodcutting can't be for money, there are better ways to make money elsewhere. Firemaking can't be for money either. There is no point in getting money via Aviansies or Godwars either. You can merchant for money and that requires no levels. Total levels and experience possibly? You've inferred that you believe them to be useless. So it comes down to fun. Every single skill in this game has no purpose what so ever except fun. You should not argue about a person's choice to train a skill. Fun, total levels, XP, and faster money. And do you realzie how true your (assuming) sarcastic 2nd to last sentence is? I'll repeat it for emphasis, it's one of the truer quotes I've ever seen. Every single skill in this game has no purpose what so ever except fun.

Not if he plans to train at zombies for any length of time. And it is better in the long run; what does slayer have to do with it?

Jagex servers rarely lag, maybe one disconnect every month or so with a big update. The problem lies betwen your computer and the RS server, something that Jagex can do nothing about. You'd be better off posting this rant in your ISPs support forums.

I have already pointed out out why several times. At Abberant Spectres when he uses the cannon, his main weapon is a SGS. That is slower than a Whip+Defender and would have increased the number of kills per hour (therefore also making a cannon even more worth using on them also). While it wouldn't add a significant bonus in the short term, better equipment would save time in the long term. On Gargoyles he doesn't use a Crush weapon, Saradomin Sword and a Godsword is faster than a Whip. At Mithril Dragons he wears Infinity boots while wearing Verac's armour. Since he would either be praying Melee, in which case he shouldn't even be wearing Verac's armour due to the Mage attack, or he could be praying Magic, in which case the additional Magic defence is irrelevant. Also note he doesn't use a DFS, this falls under the equipment section. He also often wears a ROW, this has no bearing on kill rate, and a Berserker Ring is better. In some cases, he kills monsters in the Slayer Tower or another place when there is amuch better option to kill them elsewhere. Like with Nechryaels, in the Chaos Tunnels it is mutlicombat and the spawns are close together, same as with Dust Devils. For Spiritual Mages it is better to wear a Zamorak Robe Bottom, that way you lose no extra attack bonuses for only 1 less prayer bonus. At Suqahs he wears Karils and Verac Helm, taking damage from both the Mage and Melee at higher rates. Best way is to wear melee Defence and use protect from magic prayer. At Warped Terrorbirds using range protect is very helpful. At Waterfiends you mention that you average about 100 crimsons per hour, that is over 100 kills, about 125 or so. Qeltar doesn;t even get 100 kills per hour, so that must mean he isn't being as efficient as he could be. There is many more, but those are some good examples of why he isn't going as good as he could be. I use a ROW, unless I'm testing anyway. Defender is better then dfs for virtually any melee. Dust devils and nechs would have small effect on slayer XP. Spirit mages are virtually unchanged. Not sure about warped terrorbirds, but since we're using XP rates and not food\pot consumption, it really shouldn't change much. His numbers for waterfiends are without piety or void, explaining why he gets 95 kills per hour to my 110. So you say the average is 75k from tasks due to drops and such. In that case it is actually at least 57k higher than that. You must also remember that you receive on average 24 points for finishing every task. Those 24 points are worth just over 57k. Since nearly every task takes under an hour to complete, you will get at the very least an extra 60k. That is 135k. Zarfot has a log of the amount of different tasks he received for 5.4m experince after getting to 26.8mil. Assuming he continued to average 26k experience (which is more than likely, as with his methods involving a Steel Titan he has gotten even faster), it would have taken about 207.7 hours. He completed 297 tasks in the time. That is one task every 42 minutes. That means on average due to buying those packs of runes he got an additional 81.6k per hour on top of whatever drops he may have received. This is why your rate of 50k profit per hour was always perceived as too low. I mentioned this during my first few posts on this thread I believe also. The points do help for another 60k, a very good point. I've already talked about Zarfot's rates. Without testing no average can be achieved. You can't mathematically show how much of an effect it will have because we don't know how much of an effect everything else has in the first place. The purpose of what I was saying was to show it from a different perspective. Your Strength only ever comes into play when you hit, therefore the extra bonus is always coming into play when you hit. I'm just to leave this now because I know it cannot be gotten mathematically with what we know and it will have to be tested. You can, quite easily. You apparently aren't realizing this. If you hit 0, your strength is doing nothing. Simple enough? If you hit a red number, your attack is doing nothing. It's quite simple, really - it's not any sort of complex mathematics; it's common sense. They don't need to be on a Slayer task. As I said which you then argued the same point is that if on Slayer or not has no bearing on the cannon. On a cannon, true, but not on our melee numbers, which we will be testing along with cannon. You really need to stop pushing this. All the tiny things you keep mentioning simply do not provide enough of a benefit for them to be better. There is little room for error at Monkies and you cannot increase it any more. However, at Dust Devils there is room for errors which I do make and yet I get slightly more experience. So i'm not even getting the most amount of experience possible as it is. Also your hits aren't "significantly" higher than mine, your extra Strength levels with piety and the equipment you described hits one higher than me. Though at the same Strength level with the equipment you described the max hit is the same. Bad example. You are being less efficient; therefore you are not hitting as much, and on a mosnter with a lower hit rate and a lower max. Not that max hit is accurate; without knowing the rounding behind the scenes, it doesn't tell us much. The next couple of sections are just full of errors and assumptions. The thing is, you are comparing range+cannon the melee. If it was just a comparison of range to range+cannon at Taverly you find the cannon makes it more efficient. "Assuming you can fire 2.7k cannonballs per hour at black demons (I haven't tested, but that's the number you used)" When did I ever say that? I've never given an amount of cannonballs used per hour for Black Demons, that is another made up number based on no testing or anything. Just so you know, meleeing in the Chaos Tunnels is over 80k on Slayer, and Ranging in taverly is about 35k Slayer experience per hour, it results in over 100k Range experience per hour when done correctly. Would you mind explaining what your 'correct' cannnonball number per hour is? That way I can get accurate results, as opposed to your assumed ones (which could be accurate; but without evidence, it cannot be determined). If you cannon did kill 66% of the Hellhounds and melee did 34% of the kills (which makes no sense at all as using melee means cannon can only hit one target), how does that change into a 33% reduction in charms. Increased number of kills results in more charms, not less. It is like saying at Fire Giants because I used a cannon it increased the number of kills by 50% but I got 50% less charms than normal. Summoning also does not cost 240m, it only costs 80m. That is a common misconception. The skill itself uses up very little time to train also, approximately 13 hours to get from 1-99 Summoning using only crimsons (2800 per hour with a Kyatt). It is also possible to say that if you train Slayer, getting the charms for Summoning takes up no time. You are there to get Slayer experience, the charms are a bonus at no additional time. A major flaw in your calculations here is you have assumed that you get the same kills per hour with cannon as without. SDummoning would take 240m at the most efficient training method; if I tried to calculate it using any method besides waterfiends or dust devils, the cost would be much higher. 33% reduction is because your missing 1/2 the charms from the monsters the cannon kills - the charms on the other level. There was too many assumptions, made up numbers and errors here to even begin to think this shows proof one way or the other. Next try you try to do this, make it easier to read. Don't have it in practically one giant paragraph, it is extremely hard to follow in that set out. Hard to follow? Possibly. Made up numbers and errors? No. Feel free to try and point out your 'correct' version of numbers. You keep saying it is 2 experience per damage from a cannonball and 5.3 experience per damage from a Whip. You then try to argue that it will reduce your overall experience. Truthfully, yes and no. For a set amount of kills, the overall experience will be lower. As for per hour, the experience will be higher. It doesn't make your Slayer experience "rise slightly due to faster kills", it increases it by alot in this case. It gets an extra 18.72k Slayer experience per hour, a 114% increase in kills. I'd hardly call that a slight rise because you believe it isn't even possible to get that much experience per hour on average anyway, the use of a cannon adds that much to per hour, more then doubling the rate. Your Hellhound calculations was based on so many assumptions that it shows no proof to either side and to be honest, you wasted your time doing those ones like that. I haven't seen any numbers of yours plugged into real calculations. For a start this is wrong. These two methods cannot be compared, and put simply you are an idiot if you think they can be. Doing it like this you are comparing a Slayer Helm and the use of Prayer to having neither of thoses bonuses and a cannon. It does not show whether or not a cannon is worth using. The only way you could do that is for the kills with cannon, you also increased with the use of a Slayer Helm and Prayer. That makes the only difference in speed the cannon, and you can determine how much faster the task becomes due to the cannon. You didn't factor in the money saved on supplies either. It is about 8,126 saved on supplies if it takes 35 minutes with a cannon. They can be compared. The melee XP is 50% of the total, so they would have half the effect on speed, and a cannon slows '2.5 minutes per 60 minutes', roughly 5%. The 8,126 makes for 403k per hour break even point. So you say because you used a cannon, you will now only get 64.5k experience instead of 89.8k correct? That 64.5k experience was gained in only 35 minutes compared to 60 though. Thst means in an hour you get 110.6k experience at that rate. So it is a loss of 23% of the experience due to no cannon. So that drops the earning rate required. I mentioned this before, yes it is less overall experience for a set amount of kills. For a set time however, the amount of experience is higher. So the extra time saved allows you to increase the experience earned by an even greater deal of time. The point is, for the same amount of time spent on Slayer, your experience rate is alot higher with a cannon. Your pointing out the factors I included in my calculations, then drawing incorrect numbers from them. Take a look at my calcs, showing the correct ones, please. So because he didn't numbers in his post means he didn't read yours? I believe the rate is actually higher than 65k, I only brought it down to 65k to appease you. Yes, it does; I specificaly requested that people put them in to prove they read the post. And the chances that he read through all of the replys are rather slim. And 60-65k is only for 100% attention; at my levels, it's 59.7k. That is the point though. Your numbers don't necessarily contradict. That is simply what he gets, you get less. As I have poitned out many times, Qeltars rates were not on Slayer or using prayer and his many disadvantages. You "adjusted" rates might be correct for you, but that is the point, that is for you. Other players are able to get higher. Just because you cannot doesn't mean that nobody can. Also, just because "most RS players" don't pay attnetion according to you, that doesn't mean all do. Who's to say he doesn't record every bit of experience he gains? Who's to say he doesn't pay any attention at all? We can't make those assumptions. We can't, but common sense prevails in this situation. Glad to see that someone understands what I was talking about earlier with the value of experience. How many people are planning on maxing out, honestly? Given that out of well over a million members a total of 83 members have maxed out, that doesn't really apply to the majority of is - I know I will never come close to maxing out; I don't have that kind of commitment to Rune. In terms of total levels, slayer would probably be the last skill to max out in terms of fastest levels. Total levels, which no one besides you looks at. Or fun. That's about it. But is it worth the sacrifice to train it? If you enjoy the skill and have maxed out almost every other skill, then it might be.

The only way to balance two skills out are by finding the most efficient method of the skill depending on how much money you make. In Slayer's case, you can't. A very valid point, but it can be calculated - by standardizing all other variables, such as money and combat XP, we are left with how much XP we are sacrificing for slayer XP - giving us the true cost of slayer. This is done by not counting slayer XP at all in the original equation. Yes, you can isolate how much time you pay for the Slayer xp, but that isn't isolating how much Slayer xp is worth. You can't just say "You pay 32% efficiency and you make 1m/hour, so you are losing 320k per hour. If you value 20k slay xp over 320k do Slayer." because there is nothing that states exactly how much Slayer xp is worth. There is no solution to the core of this debate. (Or rant... why isn't in the debate? It started as a rant, but now...) Why can't you? The value of the skill is basically nil, as the only use is in training it - so the most accurate way we have of determining value is by the difficulty of obtaining it. Other then that, there really is no method to determine it. This still counts as a rant, though - I'm ranting at people that think that slayer is a good way to train combat. Plus it gets much more exposure in the rants forum. You were kind of contradictory. You said you can, then you can't. I think you get the point that there is no gp worth of Slayer xp, though. I'm not sure what you mean - I'm acknowledging that it is impossible to get the true 'value' of slayer XP to an individual, but I believe that a general approximation can be calculated. An item or service's value is usually determined using one of two methods - how much that service or item is worth, or how much you can benefit by using it (0, in slayer's case, above level 55), or how difficult it is to obtain the service or item (Which can be calculated, as shown above). That, however, doesn't take into account anything like slayer making people more willing to stick to a task, or the fun gained by training slayer vs. training at zombies. We are using superhuman strength and no combat familiar, as this has been determined to be most efficient using our standardized money earning methods and training locations. I believe that 60-65k XP an hour, as tested by Qeltar, and me to some extent, is a reasonable rate for slayer. If you could offer solid evidence to the contrary, I would be happy to take a look and consider it.