compfreak847

Just because it sounds impossible to do does not make it so. You can't use Qeltar's rates per hour, but you could use his drop percentages. Why not? His rates are based on months of dedicated testing of nearly every monster in runescape. So far, all I've seen of yours was a vauge 'zarfot said you get such and such slayer XP so that means you get this much melee summoning and range XP' and 'well my test of 18 dust devils showed that you get X xp per hour' You really want to know? Here is every task from Duradel except for Steel Dragons. (I'll use a gold charm is 86 xp, green is about 130, crimson is 350 and blue can be 700) [hide=Summoning Rates]Aberrant Spectres (cannon+superhuman strength): Up to 500 kills per hour. 60 Gold charms per hour. 25 Green charms per hour. 15 Crimson charms per hour. 30 Blue charms per hour. That is 34,660 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 99 crimsons per hour. Abyssal Demons (superhuman strength): Up to 140 kills per hour. 15 Gold charms per hour. 8 Green charms per hour. 42 Crimson charms per hour. 1 Blue charms per hour. That is 17,730 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 51 crimsons per hour. Black Demons (superhuman strength, no familiar): Up to 140 kills per hour. 32 Gold charms per hour. 15 Green charms per hour. 64 Crimson charms per hour. 1 Blue charms per hour. That is 27,802 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 79 crimsons per hour. (Baby) Black Dragons I do not know the rate, but I get around 20 charms from the task. Somewhere around 9 crimsons per hour. (Mutated) Bloodvelds (cannon+superhuman strength): Up to 280 kills per hour . 131 Gold charms per hour. 16 Green charms per hour. 11 Crimson charms per hour. 2 Blue charms per hour. That is 18,596 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 53 crimsons per hour. Dagannoths (cannon+superhuman strength) Up to 730 kills per hour . 175 Gold charms per hour. 51 Green charms per hour. 29 Crimson charms per hour. 14 Blue charms per hour. That is 41,630 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 119 crimsons per hour. Dark Beasts (cannon+superhuman strength+ task done in one trip): Up to 145 kills per hour. 11 Gold charms per hour. 7 Green charms per hour. 10 Crimson charms per hour. 18 Blue charms per hour. That is 17,956 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 51 crimsons per hour. Dust Devils (superhuman strength, no familiar): Up to 250 kills per hour. 20 Gold charms per hour. 10 Green charms per hour. 60 Crimson charms per hour. 5 Blue charms per hour. That is 27,520 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 78 crimsons per hour. Fire Giants (cannon+superhuman strength+melee at waterfall): Up to 300 kills per hour. 189 Gold charms per hour. 30 Green charms per hour. 21 Crimson charms per hour. 3 Blue charms per hour. That is 29,604 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 84 crimsons per hour. Gargoyles (superhuman strength+saradomin sword on crush): Up to 210 kills per hour. 25 Gold charms per hour. 12 Green charms per hour. 12 Crimson charms per hour. 14 Blue charms per hour. That is 17,710 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 50 crimsons per hour. Goraks give none. Greater Demons (superhuman strength): Up to 220 kills per hour. 19 Gold charms per hour. 19 Green charms per hour. 83 Crimson charms per hour. 2 Blue charms per hour. That is 34,554 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 98 crimsons per hour. Hellhounds (range+cannon in taverly dungeon+hawk eye): Up to 180 kills per hour. 124 Gold charms per hour. 9 Green charms per hour. 10 Crimson charms per hour. 1 Blue charms per hour. That is 16,034 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 45 crimsons per hour. Iron Dragons (superhuman strength, but piety is alot better here): Up to 85 kills per hour. 21 Gold charms per hour. 38 Green charms per hour. 29 Crimson charms per hour. 3 Blue charms per hour. That is 18,996 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 54 crimsons per hour. Kalphites (cannon+superhuman strength): Up to 420 kills per hour. 42 Gold charms per hour. 29 Green charms per hour. 12 Crimson charms per hour. 12 Blue charms per hour. That is 19,982 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 57 crimsons per hour. Mithril Dragons (superhuman strength): Up to 35 kills per hour. 12 Gold charms per hour. 72 Green charms per hour. 23 Crimson charms per hour. 5 Blue charms per hour. That is 21,942 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 62 crimsons per hour. Nechyaels (superhuman strength): Up to 210 kills per hour. 18 Gold charms per hour. 10 Green charms per hour. 69 Crimson charms per hour. 2 Blue charms per hour. That is 28,398 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 81 crimsons per hour. Scabarites (cannon+piety, piety is essential for this area. These rates came from simlpy collecting charms, so it was without a Slayer Helmet.): 30 Gold charms per hour. 13 Green charms per hour. 130 Crimson charms per hour. 1 Blue charms per hour. That is 50,470 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 144 crimsons per hour. Skeletal Wyverns (piety+banking once per task): Up to 90 kills per hour. 18 Gold charms per hour. 3 Green charms per hour. 90 Crimson charms per hour. 3 Blue charms per hour. That is 35,538 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 101 crimsons per hour. Spiritual Mages drop none. Suqahs (cannon+superhuman strength): Up to 450 kills per hour. 13 Gold charms per hour. 13 Green charms per hour. 13 Crimson charms per hour. 13 Blue charms per hour. That is 16,458 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 47 crimsons per hour. Warped Terrorbirds drop none. Waterfiends (saradomin sword, no banking, superhuman strength): Up to 165 kills per hour. 16 Gold charms per hour. 8 Green charms per hour. 132 Crimson charms per hour. 3 Blue charms per hour. That is 50,716 Summoning experience per hour. Approximately equal to 144 crimsons per hour.[/hide] That is every single task Duradel assigns except for Steel Dragons. Only 3 of the tasks do not drop charms. Of the rest, the lowest amount is 45 crimsons per hour, and the highest was 144 (for 2 different tasks). So as for none getting over 50 but three.... only 6 tasks are under 50 and 3 of which are from not dropping charms. So yes, the drop rate of charms from Slayer is well worth it. If you assume each task has an equal chance to be given, from those rates the average is 65 crimsons per hour. Also note, that something I didn't mention was any time there was a decimal, I rounded down also, even if it was say 29.999. So technically, the rate is even slightly higher for each task. Also Steel dragons drop in piles of 3, so it is more than likely they give a high Summoning rate per hour also. I'm slightly curious where you got those rates, such as 144 crimsons per hour from waterfiends without piety. I get 95 crimsons per hour with better stats, full void mele, super setting every 5 minutes, continuously praying piety, paying 100% attention, and not including banking. Inuashakent used 25k Slayer per hour, which is easily possible for the 'average high level'. I was using mine at 22.5k also. It has been shown in practice people getting summoning to 99 by only getting charms via Slayer. So neither the Slayer rate was wrong or the end level of Summoning. I even showed in my previous post that at 11.25k Slayer experience (which is so stupid as no-one will get that low unless you have stats in the 70s) that you get 28 crimsons per hour on average. So compfreak847's rate of 8-11 is completely made up to try and prove his point. One last thing, I checked Qeltar's rates. You say you got your numbers from him. Now I added up all the crimsons per hour from each slayer task (except baby black dragons and scabarites which he didn't have). Keep in mind that was only the crimsons, not any of the other charms. I then divided that number by 22 (number of different tasks), and got an average of 18.9. So I believe it is safe to say your rate of 8-11 was indeed completely made up and based on absolutely nothing. Even keep in mind that wasn't even doing a Slayer task, not using a cannon on many, not using prayer either. You are correct about the 18.9; I was using Somma's tasks for 11. Duradel's tasks would appear to be closer. We are not counting cannon; I proved it hase virtually no effect on our figures; if anything, slightly negative for slayer. The boost in killing speed is outweighed by the cost of the cannonballs, making the slayer XP received more expensive then what I calculated. Queltar wasn't counting time for banking, setting up invios\pots, getting tasks etc., so it is safe to say that slayer would, at most, increase his numbers by 17%, giving us a total of 22 crimson per hour, plus the equilvilant of 5 from other charms, for 27 crimson an hour and 8.8k XP; almost half of your claimed rate, and much more then I expected, I must admit :shock: Now that that's established, let's go back to the hotly contested XP rates. An intereasting statistic I found when researching the exact rates was that when Qeltar switched from a guthan's helm to a slayer helmet, his XP rate only went up 8.9% - not the 15% you might expect from the helm. This was probably due to the slayer helm raising ATTACK and STRENGTH by 15%, not damage and accuracy. That 8.9% is quite small - if you spend 80 minutes on the average duradel task, you would have to spend less then 7 minutes teleporting, banking, teleporting to Duradel, recieveing the next assignment, setting up equipment and invo, getting to the next assignment, and finally begin killing them for slayer to help your XP! Interestingly enough, Qeltar's task was done in the waterfall dungeon, which takes at least that long to get to, and his figures do not include competition - a potentially large slowdown. I think it's safe to say that you would see, at most, a 10% XP boost from slayer helm + superhuman strength vs. Qeltar's figures - 7.5% from the prayer, and 2.5% from the helm, assuming it took you an average of 5 minutes to switch tasks, and spending 80 out of every 85 minutes actually killing steadily, with no competition! I also found some other discrepancies - when Qetar used a black mask vs. no black mask at Gargoyles, he received only 6.2% more XP with the black mask. Moving right along, I averaged all of Qeltar's rates, for a total of 47.2k XP per hour from Duradel; multiplying that by 10% gave us 51.9k XP per hour; if we multiply it by 15% instead of 10, we get roughly 54.3k XP - not much of a difference, proving that the effect of the black mask, although arguable, does not make a huge impact on the number if my 15% figure is somewhat high or low.

Annoying during combat, yes, but I find them a nice break from training. Unless I'm at metal dragons or trying to time things :roll: Macroing and AFKing goes on, though - they have to keep them there.

This is garbage. They, like all monsters become aggressive, and 64k XP and hour, seriously... -.- ~ Captainkidd Forgot to mention I'm a member. Obviously, you have to make them re aggressive every 10 minutes, and drink the range pots, but other then that virtually no clicking for ~5 minutes at a time. As for the XP, feel free to test it yourself. I achieved my results at 95 range, range potting when my level dropped to 103, praying +5% range, in full void, with hunter crossbow, kebbit bolts, and maxed range bonus. I achieved these results over 19 hours of careful testing; without randoms it is roughly 66.2k per hour. Randoms bring that rate down slightly, but not much. Let me know your results.

It started several weeks before the new system. Except it's been fixed in today's updates; check the forums [/thread]

Your '96-99' summoning has to be off. 55 crimsons per hour? Name a slayer task besides Dust Devils, Waterfiends, and Black Demons that gives that much. And DD\BD barely give that; one bad tasks balances out waterfiends, and the rest would have to average out to 55.

Which sounds impossible to me. Even if you boost Qeltar's charms by 25%, only 3 tasks, dust devils, waterfiends, and black demons, break that level.

All of which are covered in his guide, besides scarabites ;) I'm glad I remember that database though; it's a wealth of information on almost every monster in the game - and his figures seem more believable then '68k melee XP per hour at iron dragons, 55 charms per hour with slayer' -.- I'm not saying his rates are wrong, just off by a bit. (10% maybe?) Yeah, his database is useful, but I have most of that memorized already before it. :ugeek: :ugeek: plx? Same here, but it goes towards helping prove that slayer isn't 55 crimsons an hour, (11, more like it), and that iron dragons are aren't 68k melee XP per hour :|

All of which are covered in his guide, besides scarabites ;) I'm glad I remember that database though; it's a wealth of information on almost every monster in the game - and his figures seem more believable then '68k melee XP per hour at iron dragons, 55 charms per hour with slayer' -.-

Can't you give a straight answer? What were the monsters? From what you have said you use Sumona which is one possibl reason for the lowered rate. Did you use pure/super sets? What did you wear when killing them? Did you waste time by alching there (as you always keep mentiong)? I got them about half and half from Sumona and duradell. I was using super sets, obviously, potting once every 5 minutes. I never alched; I was on lunar magic using contact other to get tasks as fast as possible. It is possible to kill up to 140 Black Demons per hour with superhuman strength. They have about a 46% crimson charm drop rate meaning you will get 64 crimsons per hour on average. You'll also get approximately 32 gold charms, the equivalent of about 7.9 crimsons. You'll also get 15 green charms, the equivalent of about 5.8 crimsons and also maybe 1 blue charm, worth a bit over 2 crimsons. That is the equivalent of 80 crimsons per hour for Blace Demons. I checked Qeltar's beastiary, the reason his is so low is that it wasn't during Slayer, he got 98 kills in one hour. He also didn't use a Fire Cape, which would increase the kill rate just slightly. Also, he more than likely did not use any stat enhancing prayer. I could do the same thing for Dust Devils, but simply with a 24% drop rate, you can get 60 crimsons + whatever other charms per hour. His average doesn't matter as it wasn't during Slayer. Using minimal equipment and no stat enhancing prayer. All of these factors increases the average per hour drammatically. True, slayer helm would boost XP by about 20%, and superhuman strenght another 8-9%. However, his figures are for steady killing, without time to bank or get new tasks. You could possible increase his average by another 25%, leaving you with 11 crimson worth per hour. I can't do them because I've no idea what rates you were using. Even still, I will read through them again, but I know more than likely I will feel the same way about it unless you make it clear. It's quite clear; I state all of my rates in the calculations.

That is still proof. Keep that rate is that much experience per hour. Don't tell me I did anything special to get that many kills either, all I did was make sure I was always attacking a Dust Devil. My numbers are not far above what everyone else has posted either. One person even said that it averages at 65k melee xp/h as I said. What generally accepted averages anyway? The fact that I and a few others have disagreed of your extremeley pathetic rate must mean it isn't generally accepted. Also, "certain slayer monsters"? Which monsters? How did you kill them? Did you use super/pure sets? Did you use prayer (superhuman strength)? You can't simply say I did a task and it is within an accepted average. No conclusion can be made from that. 'Certain slayer monsters', as in all of the monsters I have received over the last 50 tasks, all done with superhuman strength. Getting 55 per hour reinforces your point? Pray tell how it did that? Keep in mind that number was from Inuashakent saying it gets you to 96 Summoning (which I agree with). However, I only use 8.8Mil experience instead and the rate 48 crimsons per hour. Keep in mind that isn't just crimsons, that is gold/green/blue factored in on top of the crimson you receive to being 48. I explained that in my post also. But hell, I seem to have found your problem. You're using Sumona. You'll average alot better experience and charms when using Duradel. I attained the number of 55 by working out how long it would take to get from 80-99 Slayer (11mil experience) at the rate of 22.5k Slayer xp/h (higher can easily be averaged). From that same amount of time you also receive enough charms for 96 Summoning. That means 19,330 summoning experience per hour. Next I worked out the average experience per crimson from 52-96 Summoning was, it was approximately 350 each. 19,330/350 = 55 crimsons per hour. I consider 55 crimsons per hour from Slayer a sheer impossibility. Aside from waterfiends, no slayer monsters can get that high of a rate - Black Demons, the 2nd best, get roughly 47 crimson worth of charms per hour (Source: Qelter's Beastuary, based on hundreds of hours and many months of dedicated testing by a person with all 99 melee's). Dust devils, the 3rd best, get about 46 crimson worth, and the number drops steadily after that. The average crimson per hour is roughly 9 for all of his tested monsters (several hundred) averaged. Maybe not impossibly, but since you can't or won't redo them in a clearer way so that others may understand them, it doesn't really show anything. There were certain sections where I understood what you were doing, but most of it was far from being comprehensible. That's not my fault; in light of what I said, you should be able to easily go back and read. You could even do the calculations yourself; they would look identical to mine. With my explanation, they are quite easy to follow.

I don't think that's right. By doing waterfiends instead of rock lobsters, you lose 0.8947 hours but save 825k. 825k/0.8947 = 922k. So, if you don't count in the xp, you'd have to make 922k/hour or more for lobsters to be more efficient. The mage xp is huge though, so without figuring that in the number is way off. Where does 0.8947 come from? that doesn't sound correct. I do think rock lobsters give slightly more charms/hour, as you get quite a lot of other charms besides crimsons, while waterfiends almost solely drop crims. Now that I look at it, I think your right - My bad, I'll edit my post. Everything else was factored in, including other charms, but it is true about magic XP. But mage exp aside, waterfiends are best then, right? If there was no such thing as GWD. Not if your maxed magic but not-maxed melee stats - *cough*

The equations I was talking about was when you somehow arrived at 266mil lose from Slayer. It isn't my fault either, you said yourself it was confusing, and I agree that is the case. Since I can never prove them apparently (even though that vid I posted did prove the Dust Devils one), how about you actually do them as a task. See what you get. As was shown in my vid that is what I averaged. I even had another task of them after that (my 100th task in a row : ), there was 198. I summoned a Unicorn at the start and I finished with 3:30 on it. However I also had an evil bob random when the timer was at 8:00, I got out of it at 6:30, meaning it took 49 minutes approximately to get 83,160 melee xp. That extrapolates to about 102k per hour. The 55 crimsons per hour comes from simple math. Are you denying the calculations were wrong? Seriously though, I have shown that other people can get those rates, that I myself average it with relative ease, explained the rates and shown mathematically it is more efficient overall. There is always a way to prove something, just those who choose to ignore it because they don't wish to be wrong. You keep saying you don't believe my rates, but why not? My stats are only just over 90 so it should be accurate for the 'average high level player'. You don't believe them because you think they are impossible to achieve? I've already proved otherwise. Also it doesn't matter about the rate at Steel/Iron drags, as I explained earlier. Nearly all players block them, making the next slowest tasks Skeletal Wyverns and Greater Demons. Do a task of either (and if possible vid part of it), and see what you get. Skeletal Wyverns, while they may be slow experience, the rate at which they drop crimson charms is very high (over 100% of them, they drop in piles of 2). The only proof I've seen so far of your numbers is your killing of 18 dust devils in 4 minutes and however many seconds. Your numbers are far above what almost everyone else has posted, whereas mine, although I didn't post a video of me killing a certain slayer monster 18 times, are in line with the generally accepted 'averages', which I have tested and found to be quite accurate. The 55 crimson per hour for slayer simply reinforces my point; there is NO possible way you are getting that. I usually get around ~6 crimson per hour training slayer; mostly due to the many cruddy tasks I get (Baliskis, anyone?). I consider your '55 crimson an hour' statistic slightly hilarious and wildly impossible. My equations were somewhat confusing, not impossibly. I simply established that the slayer XP was roughly twice as difficult to obtain as melee XP; compared it to the current 'best' ways of training melee\earning money, and came up with a final number detailing how much time you were wasting training slayer. To convert this into simple terms, I used that spare time in earning money with avansies - which also gives significant XP, which is factored in using the difficulty of training range with chinchompas, the most efficient manner. Slightly difficult to follow, not impossible.

Spiders are far faster, safer, and AFKable. I get 64k XP\hour at spiders without even clicking.

I don't think that's right. By doing waterfiends instead of rock lobsters, you lose 0.8947 hours but save 825k. 825k/0.8947 = 922k. So, if you don't count in the xp, you'd have to make 922k/hour or more for lobsters to be more efficient. The mage xp is huge though, so without figuring that in the number is way off. Where does 0.8947 come from? that doesn't sound correct. I do think rock lobsters give slightly more charms/hour, as you get quite a lot of other charms besides crimsons, while waterfiends almost solely drop crims. Now that I look at it, I think your right - My bad, I'll edit my post. Everything else was factored in, including other charms, but it is true about magic XP. But mage exp aside, waterfiends are best then, right? Yes, unless you can do GWD.

55 crimsons isn't just for crimsons. That is with gold/green/blue factored in, which then averages at 55. However that was getting to 9.6mil Summoning experience, my earlier one was based on 8.8mil. Actually I have, and you showed what? Nat least 4 times now I have asked you too explain the calculations. Seeing as you refuse to do that, nor even mention them, it leads me to believe they are indeed wrong. In my last post I tried to show a cannon is far from being inefficient, which you seem to ignore again. You don't attempt to give any information about other than saying it is inefficient, and expecting people to believe you. As for Hitpoints, you'll find you are wrong there. Per hour at Zombie Monkies you gain 33.3k and while doing Slayer you get about 21.7k per hour. Take that out of my calculations and the overall experience per hour for Zombie Monkies is at 110k at -40kgp. With Slayer, that leaves it at 118k per hour at (what you say) +50k per hour. Now look at that, more expereince per hour and do not lose money. We are only arguing about combat experience... that is what you said.... correct if i'm wrong (but i'm not), are Range and Hitpoints not also combat skills? You can't them out simply because you want to, it makes the calculations wrong. Also, instead of even mentioning the calculation at the top of my post, you ignored it. Calculating Summoning in at 48 crimsons per hour compared to your 8 made it more efficient. However, seeing as that showed you were wrong, I guess it is only fair you ignore it. As that seems to be the only thing you really do from what i've seen. Also about the Rock Lobsters, you don't get 180 crimsons per hour when bursting. You do get 180 crimsons per hour when barraging though. Each barrage costs 1,964 at mid price (waters bought from store though), and you use 540 per hour. Factor in the other charms gets you to the equivalanet of about 228 'crimsons'. It costs 1,060,560gp/h to do this. Therefore you need to make more than 757,543gp/h without the experience of Hitpoints and Magic factored in. That is also using the 9 Lobster spot. With bursting, in the 6 Lobster area, you use 750 casts per hour for 150 crimsons per hour. Factoring in the other charms gets to the equivalent of 189 'crimsons' per hour. At 1,068 per burst you use up 801k/h. Meaning you need to make 809,521gp/h for it to be more efficient. However, if you bursted in the 9 Lobster area, it would work out cheaper, but you'd get less charms per hour. I'm not sure of the rate for bursting there. So from that, Barraging is more efficient than bursting : I'm not arguing with you on numbers. My equations were quite simple; I explained them reasonable in the posts themselves; it is not my fault if you cannot understand them. If we use your numbers, your results are more accurate. If we use my numbers, mine are. You will never convince me you can get 68k melee XP on an iron dragon task, 105k XP on a dust devil task, and 55 crimson charms per hour training slayer. Therefore, I see no point in arguing with you. You have posted your response; according to your numbers, it is correct. I cannot argue with that. And because there is no way to conclusively prove your numbers wrong, I can't settle this argument for once and for all. I will leave it at 'I believe your numbers are wrong, making your argument invalid. There is, however, no way of proving this one way or another'.

It's only a 25% profit - you receive 125% of the money you spend on it. Not worth the time.

Yeah, it's assumed to be around 10^83 Meme, your forgetting that numbers grown exponentially. So if one drop of water is 40,000,000,000 atoms, add a zero and you have 10 drops - then 100, 1,000 - add 15 zeros and you have 1 quadrillion drops of water. So somewhere between 10^80-10^85 is about right - but the upper number is 10,000 times the lower one, indicating that we really don't have a clue.

Yes, that does make it a bad sklil. You learn different fighting methods? What? I guess if you mean you learn how to slaughter different level 80 monsters... You get to train 3 skills at a time? So what, you train them far slower then if you trained them one at a time. Break even and profit given time? Yes, but you could make so much more if you did it another way - 99 slayer will waste 266.2 million GP. About kudos? All it shows is that I'm stupid enough to waste 266 million training a skill with absolutely no use besides a very ugly cape at the end of it. Back to the shrimp analogy - if I cooked shrimps from 1-99 cooking and wasted hundreds of millions worth of GP and hundreds of hours worth of time, would that make my 99 worth any more then yours? Does it prove that 'i have the balls to stick with something'? Possibly, but that's besides the point when I'm stupid enough to do it. It would be even worse if I ran around saying that shrimps were the best way to 99 cooking because they proved you were experienced with cooking (true, you would have cooked more then almost anyone with a 99), or that you can stick to things (also true)? No, it only proves that you were dumb enough to do it without thinking about it beforehand. If you enjoy seeing the 'shrimp' message more then the 'shark' message, go right ahead and do it for fun - that's what this game is about. But that doesn't mean it's the best way.

I don't think that's right. By doing waterfiends instead of rock lobsters, you lose 0.8947 hours but save 825k. 825k/0.8947 = 922k. So, if you don't count in the xp, you'd have to make 922k/hour or more for lobsters to be more efficient. The mage xp is huge though, so without figuring that in the number is way off. Where does 0.8947 come from? that doesn't sound correct. I do think rock lobsters give slightly more charms/hour, as you get quite a lot of other charms besides crimsons, while waterfiends almost solely drop crims. Now that I look at it, I think your right - My bad, I'll edit my post. Everything else was factored in, including other charms, but it is true about magic XP.

Wow, great guide! Far more USEFUL information then any other CW guide I've ever seen.

55 crimsons per hour? That sounds rather high to me for slayer, I don't think I even get that at dust devils :? No, you haven't. I already SHOWED you that if you included range XP in ALL of my calculations, it would turn out worse for slayer due to a cannon's inefficiency. Hitpoints does not possibly count; I don't include them in mine. If I did, it would be more of an advantage for me then you. We are arguing about which is most efficient for training combat; only summoning and melee XP can be counted.

[hide=]Thank you, thank you! I now see the light, I shall revise my thread upon receiving this profound insight into slayer![/hide] Sorry, I had to do it. Welcome to Tip.it, and enjoy your stay! Please read my thread first, though - I believe I have covered your point :thumbsup:

C'bow is far better than an msb and broad bolts are far cheaper than mith or addy arrows and are about the same. And how can it have too many 0s when it has 21 more range bonus? I think I'll call it the 'crossbow craziness'. Crossbows stink for any sort of low defence monster; MSB will easily out hit them 1.5 to 1 or better. Crossbows pull ahead slightly on high defence monsters and PVP, thanks to the use of a shield - but a MSB with rune arrows is close to a c bow with diamond bolts (e) in PVP offensive power - I've specced quite a few 21-22s in fight pits with MSB.

Needless to say, I completely made all those numbers up. I've only been to a PVP world once, for about 30 seconds. But mine are about as likely as someone who has been there since the update. Prove me wrong. See what I mean? :wall: Right, well perhaps someone who has been there a lot could give better shots in the dark...? 49.9% chance my numbers are better then someone elses. It's like asking a random person how many atoms there are in the universe. They wouldn't have the teeniest, tiniest clue (At least, if they didn't have internet access). And by the way, it's assumed to be 40,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

Actually, it's 435k or better without XP counted: 180 charms per hour with Bursts, at a cost of 825k VS 95 charms per hour with Fiends, at a cost of 0k = 180/95 = 1.8947 825k / 1.8947 = 435.4k Unless he's 99 mage, though, the XP is important - 99 mage is a HUGE asset, I love it at Castle Wars but never could have trained it with alching; simply too monotonous and click-heavy, even though I didn't mind the time and cost. As for the rest of it, yes - but apparently some of the RS population isn't so bright. Ah well, I like arguing... I've typed over 70 pages worth of replys, totaling dozens of thousands of words - I really enjoy it. And my whatpulse is through the roof, too bad I lost 4 months and 6 million keystrokes worth of data. -.- Oh, and I have a bone to pick with you about the 99 summoning from 99 slayer 'fact' - do you realize that's 40 crimson an hour, from SLAYER? :o