compfreak847

The only way to balance two skills out are by finding the most efficient method of the skill depending on how much money you make. In Slayer's case, you can't. A very valid point, but it can be calculated - by standardizing all other variables, such as money and combat XP, we are left with how much XP we are sacrificing for slayer XP - giving us the true cost of slayer. This is done by not counting slayer XP at all in the original equation. Yes, you can isolate how much time you pay for the Slayer xp, but that isn't isolating how much Slayer xp is worth. You can't just say "You pay 32% efficiency and you make 1m/hour, so you are losing 320k per hour. If you value 20k slay xp over 320k do Slayer." because there is nothing that states exactly how much Slayer xp is worth. There is no solution to the core of this debate. (Or rant... why isn't in the debate? It started as a rant, but now...) Why can't you? The value of the skill is basically nil, as the only use is in training it - so the most accurate way we have of determining value is by the difficulty of obtaining it. Other then that, there really is no method to determine it. This still counts as a rant, though - I'm ranting at people that think that slayer is a good way to train combat. Plus it gets much more exposure in the rants forum.

The only way to balance two skills out are by finding the most efficient method of the skill depending on how much money you make. In Slayer's case, you can't. A very valid point, but it can be calculated - by standardizing all other variables, such as money and combat XP, we are left with how much XP we are sacrificing for slayer XP - giving us the true cost of slayer. This is done by not counting slayer XP at all in the original equation.

If you want to retest with just whip, you'll also need to retest the cannon. If you do test it though, how can we trust you weren't purposely being biased? You have made up so many numbers and tried over and over to say I have said things that prove your point (like later down in this post you mention the 65k melee experience per hour, and then alter it to suit you). No, I provide screenshots, upon request, of every step of the task; the only way to alter them would be to intentionally stand around doing nothing. I have no problem with your tests if you do the same. That means including a clock of some sort in your screenshots with XP and time; unicorn's timer works nicely. That offers nearly irrefutable proof; neither of us have 'made up' numbers (At least I haven't, I hope you haven't either), although some numbers have changed as more information becomes available. I would be more then open to accepting your results, as long as they are well documented using the correct measurements and a significant sample size. Answer truthfully. Which one will have a more accurate average, someone who tested while not on Slayer using less efficient methods to which you then "adjusted" to be on Slayer OR someone who has done well over 1,000 hours of Slayer and has 32.4mil Slayer experience and has detailed his methods in which many other people are also able to achieve? Could you point out where qeltar's 'methods' are less efficient? Obviously there are small things, such as picking up drops without losing much time etc, but any high level player should have mastered those - especailly Qeltar, whos rates I myself match almost perfectly at 100% concentration. The 'adjustments' have proven to work nicely, both mathmatically and in limited testing. All we really ahve from zarfot is vauge number ranges for melee XP, generally with varying equipment, and slayer XP that includes the use of cannon (not worth it with introduction of avansies, current cannonball prices, and our lower earning rates). If you were to answer truthfully the answer has to be without a doubt the latter. As for you saying you lost money, you are only 77 Slayer, what did you expect? You start receiving better drops from 80 Slayer. Nechryaels drop on average at least 1 pair of Rune Boots a task and many Rune Full Helms over time. At 83 Slayer you get Dragon Boots which are sold for in excess of 300k and are reasonably common. All the drops such as Fire Runes, Mystic pieces, Herbs, Herb Seeds, many different Rune items and other such items all add up over time. I personally had about 1.5mil worth of Rune items all received from Slayer or some clues I did not that long ago. That was only from a few Slayer levels also. Without a time reference, profit rates cannot be determined - if it took you 20 hours to achive those 1.5m in drops, that really doesn't mean anything. Nechs are only furthering my point; a 1 hour task giving a 60k pair of rune boots plus other drops making up for prayer pots aren't going to get you 150k per hour. Spirit mages are a good example; they represent the fastest possible money earning rates with Slayer, even suppassing abyssal demons. All those drops do add up; but they do so fairly slowly, rendering my number of 75k fairly accurate. Generally speaking, I've averaged much less then that in my last 70 tasks, but I don't have hard numbers for each task. It is still true. Strength bonus and level can only have an effect when you hit is what you have said. If you have only level 1 Strength and 70 Attack (just an example), and you hit a 0, what is the difference between that 0 and another hit with a higher Strength level? Strength level/bonus only comes into effect when you hit regardless of the level or bonus at the time. What I am trying to show is that the Strength increase will always be in effect. I'm not saying that it will induce a 15% increase in experience just because of the Strength. I am simply trying to show that it is always in effect. There is no way for you to show that the results are simply halved because they don't always hit. Even if they were 7.5% from Strength and 7.5% from Attack is still a 15% increase. I'm sorry, but your argument really isn't making sense. Assuming your attack and strength are equal, if you hit 0 your strength bonus isn't going to do anything. You can't argue that, right? If you hit, your attack bonus is going to be doing nothing. Right? The only overlap is the 7.5% of the time when you would have hit 0 but the attack bonus causes you to hit, bringing both attack and strength into play - but on the average 90% hit task, that only occurs 10/7.5 = 1.3% of the hits, being bosted by both 7.5% from strength and 7.5% from attack, bringing our average to around 7.7%, depending on the task. Again you make up a number providing no evidence to it being true. You say the "The effects of the bonuses of slayer helm, very similar to equipment bonus, have been determined to be roughly 50:50". Since when has that ever been determined? Where is there evidence of this? How do you even know how much effect the Attack bonus provides? The answers are; Never, non-existent, and you don't. You come back to you can get a more accurate result by deriving it mathematically compared to testing. I would agree, but that is only if you knew the formula that is sued to determine how you hit. Since we do not know how much effect it has it is just as inaccurate to attempt to do it mathematically by making up formula based on no evidence. The attack and strength bonus are both 15%, assumed to be to either levels or equipment bonus (source: KB); the formula does not need to be known - assuming the forumla for your max hit was X, X + .15*X = 1.15X; it does not matter what X is. That is only true because you seem unable to see when you are wrong. The average Slayer experience is not 15k per hour, this has been shown many times. Zarfot did start at maxed stats and 99 Slayer, but he did get 13.8mil Slayer experience in 530 hours. That is 500 hours for 13mil, due to averaging 26k Slayer experience per hour. A player need not have started at 1 Attack/Strength/Defence when they got 1-99 Slayer either. They may have been like you and believe that is was inefficient when it isn't and have 99 in every other stat but this one (obviously unlikely). The point is, it won't take 900 hours to get 99 Slayer. What is also funny to note is to see you skewing the results again - 13,034,431/15000 = 869 hours. So what was my apparent source of error? This has not been shown, and assuming your average of 26k, that's 104k melee XP per hour - impossible; his rates include a cannon on nearly half of his tasks, which #1 does not provide as much XP per hit, and #2 is inefficient given our methods. So if you significant proof that the numbers are wrong, does that not also mean that the Dharoks numbers are wrong and it is 360k either? That means you have proven nothing either so you need stop saying that. Test it yourself then, or I can instead. You are welcome to test it; document it carefully, as I have detailed, and your results should be fairly reliable. I can run tests with DH myself, although I'd rather not try and get them as a slayer task. Remember, detail everything in a screenshot, and use at least 1 hour worth of testing for each method; more would be preferable. If it doesn't die I don't just ignore it, I kill it. Had you even watched the vid, which I am starting to doubt you ever did, you'll see that it is easy to compensate for. Simply because your equipment isn't better as you believe it to be, your stats have a very minimal advantage and Dust Devils are simply a better monster to train on. Is that so hard to understand? However yo are now being hypocritical, you say that you can pick up from at the Zombies with no loss in time. Have I not been saying all this time that the same can be easily done at Dust Devils? Why would dust devils be a better monster then zombies? My hit rate is at least 95%, higher then yours; I am in combat as much or more as you, my hits are significantly higher, and I'm still getting 5% less XP. Yes the charm drop rate would be alot lower, but you do kill them significantly faster. Just because you can melee them somewhere else easier, doesn't make ranging terrible. The cannon won't add that large of a cost as you seem to think. Telegrabbing charms from Hellhounds was a bad idea anyway. The drop mostly gold so you are not losing out on much experience. If you honestly think the killing speed wouldn't make up for the cost, you are mistaken. What is faster, killing one at a time with no cannon, or attacking as many as you want as if it was multicombat using a cannon? With the Nechryaels, you have never been there. How do you know they are bad? You can hit 9 at a time regardless of what you think, they can summon Death Spawns, which you do also hit, and they have a low Defence. Unlike at Ape Atoll, these also provides you with many crimsons and other charms, as well as a multitude of drops. That cuts the cost down significantly. A cannon is a bad idea for black demons. You lose out on many crimsons per hour, and because you are not attacking, your kill rate isn't that much higher - melee will get you 61.5k XP per hour on demons in chaos tunnels. Assuming you can fire 2.7k cannonballs per hour at black demons (I haven't tested, but that's the number you used), at 192 GP per cannonball that's a cost of 518k per hour. Now here's the kicker - at 12 damage on average per cannonball (24k XP per 1k), that's only 32.4k damage per hour, vs melee's 15.375,earning you 17.025k more XP per hour - increasing kill speed by 2.1x, or 28.5 minutes to get 1 hours worth of melee kills. That leaves you with 31.5 minutes to make up the 246k, requiring an earning rate of 468k per hour to break even, not including charms. I'll try again with hellhounds. 2.3k cannonballs, plus 58.4k melee XP per hour is 27.6 + 14.6 = 42.2k damage per hour, vs 14.6 from melee, at a cost of 441.6k per hour. You are spending 20.8 minutes vs. the 60 required for melee, at a cost of 153k per hour. This leaves us with 39.2 minutes to make up the 153k, at a rate of 234k per hour, lower then our estimated limits; however, that does not count the fact that cannon XP is less then standard melee XP. At our 400k per hour earning rate, we take 23 minutes to earn back the 153k, adding up with cannon for 43.8 minutes total and a savings of 27% of our time, increasing our slayer XP by 27%, from 14,616 to 18,562 slayer XP - a gain of 4k; so far so good. However, we are not looking at the behind-the-scenes XP. Because our cannon is killing 66% of the hellhounds to melee's 34%, the charm reduction is approxamatly 33%, reducing our Summoning XP from 10,447 to 6965, a loss of 3482 vs. the gain of 15.8k XP from earning back money at Avansies - roughly canceling each other out; 99 range is 48m and 59 hours, vs. summoning's 240m and 237 hours, the lost time being worth an additional 70m for a 1\6 ratio of Range XP to Summoning XP, making our lost summoning XP from unused charms actually worth more then our gained range XP from Avansies. This leaves us with our other arguments; because 66% of our 14,616 damage is going to the cannon, that's 19,293 combat XP from the cannon and 26,503 XP from melee, including HP, for a total of 45,796 XP - vs our original 77,951 combat XP for 1 hour. Including slayer XP creates totals of: 60,412 from the task in 43.8 minutes with cannon. 92,567 from the task in 60 minutes without cannon; all other factors, including money, standardized. We are losing out on 35% of our total XP to save 27% of our time; all factors such as money and XP from avansies accounted for. No, cannon is not worth it. Phewph, that was a painful equation, but I made it as simple and easy to follow as possible. I don't have exact numbers for Nechs, but from guides and posts I've read, chins are nowhere close to being worth it for them. Obviously I can't show any exact numbers... *points to slayer level* :P [hide=Aberrant Spectres]As you can see, without a cannon he gets 182 Kills per hour. With a cannon he gets 390 kills per hour. (Don't say but he is on Slayer, he isn't, why else would he use the Salve?) Using a cannon takes up 2364 cannonballs per hour. With a cannon, it takes 28 minutes to kill the same amount as without. That means in that 28 minutes he used up about 1103.2 cannonballs. That costs about 209,608. You now have 32 minutes to make back that money. That means you need to make 393,014 per hour. That means I made a mistake the first time, I know what the mistake was also. I added an extra 2 minutes to the usage of a cannon. I shouldn't have, because that time was already in with the time taken. So that means at 400k per hour, a cannon is owrth using on this task. I've no doubt you'll mention range experience, and that comes down to how you value it. At about 5gp per experience, that means you got 137,875 worth of experience. Even at 3gp each it means you got 82,725. That makes a cannon even more worth it and definitely should be used. Perhaps I find it odd, but why did your number of cannonballs suddenly drop from 1.5k to 1.1k? I realize that you made a mistake in your math, and you were over adjusting for the cannon, but why did the cannonball number suddenly drop, adn why is the damage per cannonball so much higher then our other tests\mathematically proven ones?/color][/hide] This is when I showed the calculations for the Spectres. I hasn't even included the money saved on supplies or added in the Range experience. Please explain to me how your reply was proof of it being wrong? You mention it dropping from 1.5k to 1.1k but from what I see I never even mentioned anything close to 1.5k, so that only proves you were wrong. You mention damage per cannonball, it wasn't "so much higher as you seem to think. You said it would average 24 Range experience each and I had used 25. Keep in mind I had even added an extra 2 minutes to the time taken when I shouldn't have. I was trying to use your numbers; I guess I'll stick straight to Qeltar's from now on :). Given your very close # to 400k per hour, perhaps my above equation can show why a cannon has a huge drawback - your only getting 2 XP per cannonball damage, vs 5.333 XP per whip hit; making our slayer XP rise slightly due to faster kills, but our overall XP drops quite significantly. This one is so close that I see no need to redo everything - that takes a bit of time, ya kno. If you wish to verify it yourself, simply replace the numbers here with my numbers for hellhounds. The same can be done wyverns\dagganoths; both of their numbers are so close to 400k that the huge XP reduction from cannon, as shown in my equation, will easily push them far over 400k. I will do kalphites, which have a much lower threshold, to prove my point. There was also Kalphites: [hide=Kalphites]162 kills/hour melee only. 320 kills/hour melee with a cannon. You use up 1530 cannonballs in that time, that costs 290,700 (at 190 each). You would complete the task of 162 Kalphites in 30.3 minutes. It cost you 147,166 in order to save 29.7 minutes. You now have 29.7 minutes to make back that money. 147,166/0.494 = 298,059gp per hour. Since we make 400k per hour, a cannon is worth using for this task. [...] Here you admit to being wrong, and you never tried to show anything wrong with this calculations again. So no proof was provided to them being wrong yet again and my calculations still stand. First of all, your numbers are off - you are using Qeltar's raw numbers with neither slayer helm nor +10% strength factored in; once those are adjusted by 15%, making for 187 kills per hour, curiously not much higher then his rates with just black mask, we can do this more accurately. 320 kills/hour melee w\ cannon 1530 cannonballs lost Task of 187 completed in 35 minutes & 893 cannonballs (171,456) 25 minutes to earn back 171,456 Requires 411k per hour to make it worth it. I don't even need to point out that you will be getting 55% XP from melee\45% from cannon, out of the original 16,830 damage, for 49,367 XP from melee and 15,147 XP from cannon, for a total of 64,514 XP from the task, vs. 89.8k XP from melee alone - a loss of 30% of our XP, making our earning rate required for breakthrough shoot much higher. And yes, that is taking into account the XP from the cannon, which you've been talking about so much :wall: Finally there is Bloodvelds. I'm not even going to bother showing these ones. You made the mistake of comparing it to Dharoks. Even still, you got them to be efficient. So this shows that Bloodvelds are efficient even when comparing to the wrong one, it is just a matter of how much more efficient it is. Run some tests on them; I'll try to too. Once we have good numbers we can calculate. Then you are indeed being purposely ignorant. That was only one of them, see for yourself I fail to see how from his post you surmised that he didn't even read the original post. All that was said was didn't want to get into the "minutiae of the argument/discussion". So again you lied to try and prove your point. Next is: Easy, he didn't put my numbers (easily skipped, but given the lack of information in his post, I would tend to think he glossed over the first post, then scanned the last page and posted). I could just as easily say I get much lower numbers; Inushkant even admitted that '65k per hour from slayer seemed rather high' (almost exact words, I'm not wading back through 9 pages of replys to find it).

Yes. It's amazing how easy it is to overlook sarcasm - until someone points it out, then you feel like an idiot. Great fun. Yeah, just sell it for max on GE... At least you'll get something for it. And no, there is no way to make junk. The method I described will generate more junk then any other method out there :P

Do avansies with your range, making 350k and 35k range XP per hour. Sell the addy bars etc,. then use the GP as junk to sell zammy books. It's the fastest junk collection method at your level, with a considerable amount of range XP thrown in.

20% of the time? That's 1 every 5 shots. It's closer to 1 every 30-50; a nice bonus, but not really worth the cost compared to diamond (e). It hits up to 60. D fire hits between 1-25; it's reasonable accurate, but nothing to write home about. Generally not worth the recharge time. Onyx bolts activate rarely with little benefit, not recommended.

I have numbers and facts to back up what I'm saying; if you find it fun, so be it, but slayer can and has been proven inefficient for training combat. Nothing personally agains the skill; I enjoy it and like training it. (Hence my 77 slayer level against your 39\35; but I'll try not to make it personal). I'm just saying that it's inefficient for training combat, but a good way to relax\have fun while getting decent XP. Some tasks can get up to 65k per hour; the average is about 60k. I'm not sure how your getting 25k slayer XP from that; 65k melee XP = 16.25k slayer XP. They can be, but it's a terrible idea. You can't get the XP of avansies (40k is good), your missing out on the much better melee XP with black mask, and your not making much of a profit, vs. 400k from avansies. Melee is much better for slayer, thanks in part to the black mask. Now, for some comparisons to Armored Monkies. Armored Monkeys = 27 crimson charms per hour, 175k profit, 100k melee XP, 33.3k HP XP, 0 Slayer XP per hour Slayer = 41 crimson charms per hour, 75k profit, 59.7k melee XP, 19.9k HP XP, 14.9k Slayer XP per hour. First of all, what my argument is about - pure combat XP and profit. Armored monkies = 133.3k XP, 175k profit per hour Slayer = 74.6k XP, 75k profit per hour No argument here - over double the profit, and nearly twice the XP from monkies. Now, we factor slayer and summoning XP in, using our numbers for crimson XP Armored monkies = 133.3k XP, 175k profit, 8791 summoning XP Slayer = 94.5k XP, 75k profit, 13,285 summoning XP (Taken from Qeltar's charm drop rates) It's really not a competition; a cannon has been proven inefficient for all but 2 tasks, and does not significantly affect overall XP and profit rates. Bottom line: Slayer is not an efficient way to train combat; even counting slayer XP.

It isn't a matter of Dharoks being more efficient. The calculations are there to show if a cannon is worth using. By comparing Dharoks (which doesn't matter if it is 2% faster or 100% faster) to a Whip with a cannon, you've changed the results and they cannot be compared. The difference has to be whether or not a cannon was used. I don't see why you find that so difficult to understand. It's very simple - his whip rates for the first results must be off. DH does not provide that much of an advantage; we should retest, as one or the other of his rates are very obviously off. Qeltar doesn't have rates for Slayer however. 14.9k Isn't what I would call accurate as it was based on killing them without the bonuses from a Slayer Helm, without the bonus of a stat enhancing prayer, and more often than not using low efficiency methods. There are too many factors that you are unable to change the result for to get an accurate average for what you would get on Slayer. You are guessing at how much the Slayer helm increases experience by, you guess how much prayer increases experience by. Combine that with him using less efficient methods and not using a cannon (which regardless of what you think, at 400k per hour it is worth using). You ignored what I said and you say that it is only efficient for Bloodvelds. You got that by comparing it inaccurately and got 350k per hour being required. Is needing less than 300k for the other tasks mean they are sufddenly inefficient? I think not. No, but needing more then 400k does require it. All of the above is accounted for with slayer XP; we really don't know about his methods, so I can't make an argument there. You didn't understand what I was talking about with the higher money making method. Using an accurate average (which is over 20k Slayer experience per hour), also using a more accurate profit of up to 150k, using more efficient killing methods will boost the overall experience rate so high, that they will only get slightly less experience per hour. However comparing the profit into that makes Monkies far from being more efficient. That is why I said that there is currently no way to average a high enough money maker for Zombie Monkies to be worth it. Accurate average? Already done, 14.9. Accurate profit? Questionable; slayer monsters, due to rarer, more valuable drops then most monsters, have a wildly varying profit. However, I lost money at kalphites (2 hours; they don't have any rare drops), lost money at greater demons (2 hours; rune med helms rare), roughly broke even on dust devils (chain is extremely rare), made a ~80k per hour profit on gargoyles (3 tasks, 2 rare drops - black mystic top and granite maul), lost money on black demons (not sure what there rare drops are; didn't get anything great myself). I would consider a 75k average profit per hour at slayer very lucky. Would you please stop that, seriously? Using the exact same way to work out if a cannon is more efficient was applied to more than Bloodvelds, and all were proven to be efficient. With Bloodvelds only requiring 80k per hour needing to be made, it is fair to say that a cannon provides more than a "truly tiny, at 5%" increase. Since you seem unwillinging to accept that, I'll ask you to do it. Using the same method, using the numbers Qeltar got, you show me how they were not efficient. Only then can you truly say what you have been repeating and to have others agree (that also requires you do not make up numbers again). Your numbers, again, are so far off that they don't even need to be argued against. I've proven bloodvelds 360k per hour; I'm not sure where your 80k per hour number is coming from. You were the one who said all extra kills came specifically from the cannon. Now you are saying otherwise. Unless it is single combat, which is only on one task (Fire Giants), you will still always be hitting with your Whip alongside the cannon. You will still hit just as often and just as high. There may be a slight decrease in overall melee experience, but nothing too significant. 5%, just as I mentioned. I think you are forgetting something. Ignore hitting 100% of 50% of the time, as we don't know the average on each monster. It is impossible to hit 100% of the time anyway. Think about this from a different perspective. Say nothing changes, base stats and the same equipment. On average you hit 70% of the time. Now assume all that changes is the use the +10% Strength prayer. Does that mean it only comes into effect when you hit? Yes and no. While the bonus to Strength has no affect when you don't hit, it always has an affect when you do hit. Everytime you hit, it is in effect every hit. So it is technically in effect 100% of the time, regardless of how often you hit. What? When you hit a zero, all the strength bonus or levels in the world have no effect at all. Therefore, my reasoning is correct - yours is not. You can argue over the lingustics of it, but slayer helm's strength bonus isn't doing anything when you hit 0; and the attack bonus isn't doing anything when you would normally hit anyway. For your 70% hit average, the 30% of the time you hit 0 your strength bonus is doing nothing; the 70% of the time you hit anyway your attack bonus is doing nothing. Both of them are halved because they are stats, not accurace or damage boosts, for an overall of 8%. With attack, we don't know how much effect it has. As we all know Attack level isn't equal to accuracy. You can't say how much effect it will have simply whether you hit or miss. Either way, you can't predict how much effect the bonuses of Slayer Helm will have overall, or the prayer. You need to actually test it, you can't derive it mathematically unless you know specifically the formula that is used when calculating how often you hit or your average hit. You don't need to know that - attack is equal to accuracy. The effects of the bonuses of slayer helm, very similar to equipment bonus, have been determined to be roughly 50:50. Any variance would be fairly small and not have much effect on the end result. Tests are limited in situations such as this; natural variance in the game would mean that detecting XP rate fluctuations on such a small scale would require an impossibly large test set, with every variable perfectly standardized - something that would be virtually impossible in the RS environment. As such, based on known information, we can mathematically derive the advantages much precisely then results obtained by testing. I am sure some people have gone from 1-99 Slayer since the release of Summoning. It has been out for almost a year after all, it would be foolish to think no-one has done so. 8 months or so; possible but very unlikely. Honestly, at 15k XP per hour, that's 900 hours of slayer - over 240 days, roughly 4 hours a day of constant slaying, ever since summoning came out - and the XP would be much slower at first. Not really worth arguing, though; I just wanted to mention that source of error. You could try testing it yourself to see the actual number. I could, but it's really not nessasary - we're arguing about 2 XP here, in a single task, affecting our overall XP rates by ~50 XP per hour. We actually have not. Not in the real world testing and especically not mathematically. Refer a bit above for my reasoning why. You can't mathematically predict what the change will be because you don't know how much of an effect it has. We dont' have any accurate tests for bloodvelds then; we do have significant proof that one or more of our numbers are off by a large amount. Attempting to calculate with this will only yield inaccurate results. They are very clsoe together in the Chaos Tunnels, so what are suggesting I notice? Look at my video again. It was never more then a few steps from one to another. Does it matter if it didn't die? If it didn't, it still tries to attack you does it not? That means it will still close and the hitting with a Whip cuases no slow down. I can surmise that you have clearly not been using the Chaos tunnels if you think the drops are up to 15 squares away. You really need to see that video again and you'll see that there is barely any time lost at all. If it doesn't die, you will run to the next one; frequently outside the 'aggressive range' of the dust devils. I've been in chaos tunnels also; there is more then 'one or two squares' between the drops. Anyway, now that we have numbers for armored zombies, we can use them; but I'm still wondering why piety and super setting twice as often is with better equipment and stats is still getting me 5% less XP per hour then you, despite being in even better conditions then dust devils - the monsters are within a step or two away from each other, and they come to you with no delay in the whip hits - so easy pile pickups with losing virtually no time. Actually it makes Slayer more efficient. Using the Range/cannon for Black Demons is 75% faster Slayer experience. Getting up to 250 kills per hour. So a 'cannon at black demons comparison' would be very helpful to again show your error. However, as I have stated, Qeltar hasn't done so so I can't use his rates. I can't test myself as you'll either say I am lieing, I am inaccurate, it is impossible for others to do that or whatever other reason you may use. A cannon at Hellhounds does result in faster experience than no cannon. It is in effect a multi combat zone as you are not being attacked. As for chins on Nechryaels, are you not better of using chinchompas on them than training range with them elsewhere? It may not be quite as fast as other methods, but you will receive charms and drops to help cover the cost. You would be killing black demons outside of the chaos tunnels, for virtually no charms, being forced to range instead of melee at much lower XP rates. Black demons are a terrible range tasks with the introduction of chaos tunnels; the extra charms far outshine the boost in speed - at a large cost - of the cannon. On lunar magic, you can't telegrab the charms from the lower hellhounds - reducing your charm rates quite dramatically, and the killing speed doesn't make up for the cost. Chins are not worth using on nechs; you can't hit 9, like you can in zombie tunnels, they have higher defence then in zombie tunnels, and the respawns are much more inconvenient, making for much slower chinning rates. And even zombies aren't worth it vs. Avansies with our profit rates. With an earning rate of 400k per hour, how is Aberrant Spectres only requiring a rate of 258k inefficient? An earning rate of 307k for Dagannoths is less than 400k. Kalphites at 280k I think it was is less than 400k. See my calculations; not only did I prove yours wrong, I established correct ones - which you steadfastly ignore, refusing to either refute mine or redeem yours. How about the people who just posted who said that? Do they just not exist because they only once again prove you were wrong? 3 people posted on this page saying directly or indirectly that my rates are closer to what they average than what you suggest. So far I've see one post, by someone who hadn't even read the first post completely, saying that he thought his rates were closer to yours then mine. Even you were saying that slayer got less then 65k melee XP when you were first posting; numbers of 60k are quite close.

Crossbows aren't for training on low defence monsters; a MSB with mith arrows would be much better. Bronze knives with void would be better still for the really low level ones.

And in both cases, the longsword spec owns the hardest since it can hit slightly less harder than a dds but MUCH more accurate. Not true. DD++ is very, very powerful. I've KOed maxed players with 4 specs, and you nearly always get a couple of hits in. For any player 100-, 4 dd++ specs is instant death, almost every time.

Just did it today. You have to talk to the captain\go to the cemetery\track it down to the trapdoor and find the key before you can get there - so all you have to have is the hunter\quest reqs. Awesome training spot, was there today. Its got monkey zombies beat by a mile :o

[hide=] Please don't troll. I've found this discussion both entertaining and informative. I can keep it going if I so desire. Liking a skill is a personal opinion; determine which way to train a skill is the fastest is not.[/hide] I just did the DoV quest, and spent some time testing out Zombies. They were tested in 10 minute chunks; from aggressive to unaggressive, 10 minutes to the second according to a time test. All XP rates, drops, and charms were screenshotted before being entered into a spreadsheet so average could be calculated. Equipment was as follows: Nezinot helm Salve ammy (e) Hitpoints cape Proslyte Top Verac's Skirt Abyssal Whip Rune Defender Barrows Gloves Dragon Boots Berserker Ring Bunyip provides enough healing that no eating or prayer is required. Piety was used, with prayer being recharged from the altar across from the ladder. A pure set was drank every 5 minutes. Monsters were made aggressive by running down the hall and back every ten minutes, at a time loss of less then 7 seconds. Location takes 29 seconds to run to from clan wars arena. Numbers include costs of pots\prayer potions. Results: XP rates: 100k per hour Melee XP Drops: 175k per hour Charms: 20.4 gold, 9.6 green, 8.4 blue, 1.2 crimson per hour. Total in crimson, using numbers standard for all slayer charm conversions: 27 (26.99) This is going to make for some interesting changes to my 'best XP' rates.

So I have to walk you through every single calculation that i've done? I don't see how you can say I haven't shown anything either. I've shown you purposely made the rate for Monkies 2.75x lower than what it should have been. I've shown that a cannon is worth using. I've shown that without using a cannon, Slayer is more efficient than Monkies. You keep saying it is my "original numbers". To what numbers are you referring? The numbers calculated from Qeltar's rates. It may be tht it isn't correct. However you can't simply say that because one number is alot lower it must be wrong. It may simply be that he really did only get that many kills. You'll have to do a test yourself. Or we could simply use DH on that task, if it truly is more efficient. If it isn't, the number would be even higher anyway; plus our +10% strength prayer. You really need to be clearer in what you are saying, "theese ones were dropping much more rapidly". To which ones are you referring. If it was Bloodvelds, he used pots with both Dharoks and Whip. He also didn't use prayer with the Whip, I stated that earlier, and that could be a reason why it slowed down. Even still, you don't get hit that much and eating doesn't slow you down by alot. "Pick on or another method" again, to what one are you referring?I'm talking about bloodvields; he did not pray any sort of stat boosts with DH, as far as I know. See above for the rest. A higher money maker doesn't necessarily make it more efficient. If you recall I have stated many times that the average profit is higher than 50k, and up to 150k. I was using your rate of 14.9k, even though you yourself averages 15.7k on the slowest task the average Slayer will do. Also note, that using the +10% prayer and cannon, and better methods for each task, it is easily possible to average over 20k per hour. All that combined means that you will need an even higher method of making money than what is presently available.14.9k is from Qeltar's rates; 50-75k would be acceptable when +10% strength is factored in; my rates are with +10% strength, and a cannon has been proven inefficient for all but bloodvelds. A higher money maker DOES make it more efficient, but sticking to Avansies is only fair, and I won't argue that point. It is still better is it not? Keep in mind this is just the one task. If you average it out for every task, it will be even furthur under 400k. With Aberrant Spectres it is 258k being needed, 392k for Skeletal Wyverns, 307k for level 90 Dagannoths and 80k for Bloodvelds. That is an average of 259k being needed. According to what you said earlier, you would get the same amount of melee kills per hour and all the extra were done by cannon. So it does nothing but give bonus experience. Bloodvields is the only other task proven to benefit; and that benefit is truly tiny, at 5% - all in all, only affecting our slayer rates by a couple hundred XP per hour at the most. Oddly enough I know it takes time to set up and reload cannon. I was the one who brought that up afterall. Want to know why that doesn't have to be added in? It is already in. Unless you are suggesting that Qeltar Stopped timing every time he went to reload his cannon, the extra time taken to do that is already included. I already know that about the damage, but what effect does that have on the ratio? We don't know how much Range and melee experience you will get on each task. So we can't predict how much overall experience you are getting. I'm saying that the melee XP with a cannon would be less then the melee XP without; more of the damage is from the cannon, which has a lower damage to XP rate. All my calculations showed was that Slayer was more efficient which would have made you wrong. Since it made you wrong, that must mean my calculations were wrong then? I have said many reasons why yours were wrong but you choose to neglect seeing them. An example of this is when I stated that just because you can X amount of Range experience using Chinchompas, how does that make a cannon less efficient for Slayer? The answer is it doesn't ahve any effect, a point which you seemed unable to comprehend. Ok... that makes no sense. Can't use the numbers of the Whip because we are using Dharoks prayer pots? Dharoks wasn't 60% faster either, it was 51%. 8% bonus from Slayer helm? Could have sworn it was 15% to Attack and 15% to Strength. 'Scuse me, I was guestimating the 60%; you know the numbers as well as I do, no need to be precise when it's not for comparison purposes. +15% to attack and 15% to strength = 7.5% bonus to hit, 7.5% bonus to accuracy. If you hit 100% of the time, your strength comes into play 100% of the time, for a 7.5% boost to XP. If you hit 50% of the time, half of the time your strength bonus is doing nothing (due to a zero being hit) and half the time your attack bonus is doing nothing (as you would have hit anyway), averaging out to 7.5% overall bonus to XP, rounded up to 8. That would only of really had an effect when Summoning was released. It has been out for months now so that isn't an issue anymore. The only time it will be an issue is if someone who hasn't played in however long logs in after all this time with 90 Slayer and decides to get Summoning up via Slayer. Saying that those people are even the minority would be an overstatement. You could also say that experience past 99 is still worth it to those people. Just because there is no more level increases or extra bonuses, doesn't make it useless. True, but not many people train slayer after 99; no one, to my knowledge, has trained from 1-99 slayer since summoning came out, so it still is an issue. I looked at the site, it never even mentioned anything about Suqahs. Nor did it even mention that on some tasks the monster give more Slayer experience than their Hitpoints. But you go ahead and belive that if you want. What? Look at the suqah page, it states 106 XP. http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Suqah. I've found runewiki to be by far the most accurate of all things related to RS, with far more information then any other site to boot. I have mentioned several problems with your methods and calculations for both Qeltar and you. Qeltar wasn't on Slayer was one method I brought up that is very important, that is a problem. Qeltar doesn't use stat enhancing prayers, also a problem. I have poited out several mistakes in your calculations which you seem unable to comprehend as being wrong. For example where you compared a cannon+Whip to Dharoks at Bloodvelds. We have established how to adjust Qeltar's rates so that, both mathmatically and in real world testing, they fit nicely to slayer. DH vs. Whip has been discussed above. I didn't check to see at what level you get to 98 so I am unsure if it gets you to 98. It would get you to approximately 12.2mil Summoning experience from 1-99 Slayer from 1 Summoning. So that is indeed level 98. Yes I am confident about that also. Please refrain from trying to insult me again also. What? (I'll try to restrain the insults, you could work on that yourself also ;) ) I stated this pages ago. You only look more foolish the more you press this matter. I never said that. I said that if you want a BOB can be taken if you want more room for drops. I never said that I use one. The only familiars I use are Unicorns and Geyser Titan's, neither of which are BOBs. That means I don't use BOBs. Refer to the Dust Devil vid I posted. See how little time I lost from picking up drops? See how you purposely exaggerated the distance between them? If you had read what I said, you'll also see that I never once inferred that I get to another one, and then inch my way back to the drop. I said "While I am killing I move 1-2 steps at a time towards another monster between Whip hits, no time is lost for that. I then attack the monster before the first one even dies." Read through that logically and what does it tell you? It says that I am already attacking another one before the first one dies. The drop is only 1 square away. WOW!!!!!! That is so hard to move 1 square!!!! Notice how far appart the dust devils are in chaos tunnels? Notice that one generally loses at least one whip hit, especially when then dust devil your attacking doesn't die on the hit you thought it would? Notice how the dust devils are spread out enough that the drops are anywhere from 4-15 squares away? So no, I don't "miss quite a few hits" for things you are incapable of doing/understanding. Bronze knifes are a waste of time and will slow down your experience. Amazingly when I do Slayer, I ahev plenty of time to talk to my friends without getting what you have said to be a 50% reduction in speed. Try 25%, 59k to 45k. It isn't always a bad idea. Ranging on some tasks is faster or only just slow than meleeing. Range+cannon on Black Demons is the fastest way to complete a Black Demon task. Range+cannon is the fastest way to do Hellhounds. Range+Cannon is only slightly slower than melee+cannon in the waterfall area. It is even possible to use chinchompas on Nechryaels. Yup, it certainly is possible to do all of those - it just makes slayer much less efficient. I'm glad to see you haven't tried to do a 'cannon at black demons' comparison, it's not even worth mentioning. Hellhounds are another inefficient cannon, and don't even get me started on chins at Nechs. At 400k an hour, a cannon is worth using on every single task I showed. You seem unable to accept that. 302k needing to be made for Dagannoths, sounds worth it to me. Bloodvelds 80, definately worth it. Skeletal Wyverns 392k, still worth it. 258k on Aberrant Spectres, sounds worth it to me. 280k I think it was for Kalphites (and that was without adding in Range experience and money saved on supplies), so yep, those are worth using a cannon on also. So yes a cannon is worth using and it is far from a deadlock as you would call it It's worth using on none of the tasks, except bloodveld\wyverns - where it boosts XP by ~200 on our entire slayer average. P.S. For the impossibly higher rates that I apparently get, it seems that is is possible for others to achieve them after all. You weren't wrong again were you? That would be unfortunate. So far I haven't seen proof of anything like that, including your getting the 'higher rates'.

That's true, but a cannon can help boost that above our average of 60k, but will result in much less profit. Ranging tasks, without a doubt, is a very bad idea. There is no argument or questoin about that. Avansies is 40k XP and 400k profit per hour; far better then you will EVER get from slayer. I have tried, and with our low earning rates, bloodvields is the only task a cannon is worth using on - and the difference in XP is a virtual deadlock compared to melee alone. Most posters seem to at least have an idea, although I doubt they've read through the hundreds of pages of replys, where all of their issues so far have been discussed. :? True, it doesn't completely suck; it's kind of fun and offers a break from regular training. I hadn't considered the psychological benefits, but for me I tend to want to take a break for something fun after each assignment :lol: It just isn't as good of XP as other methods of training, so it can't be considered the 'best'.

59.6k, actually, and although some tasks are quite good, others are very slow (mith dragons, anyone?), and banking times further reduce them. Very true, I'm wondering if my monkie zombie numbers are messed up. These are far more efficient then mine. 100k cash + 100k XP vs -120k cash + 110k XP spending 220k to save 10% of the time. Requires 2.2m earning rates to make up for it, and how good are armored zombie's charms? I need to get around to doing defender of varrock so I can try this out. :shock:

Did you want me to walk you through every step just so you are capable of understanding, or should I assume you have some kind of intelligence at least? I'll go through every step, you let me know when it becomes too difficult for you ok? 182 kills per hour without a cannon. 390 kills per hour with a cannon. (390-182)/390 = 0.53333 (If I just did 182/390 that shows the percent of how long the task will take with a cannon. Done this way is the time saved, understand?) According to Qeltar, you would normally use: 3 Zamorak Brews (2), which is 1.5 (4) 3 Super Strength (2), which is 1.5 (4) 6 Prayer Potion (4), his numbers said 3 (2), which is wrong. Prayer drains at the same rate. Not too hard so far right? 0.533*1.5 = 0.8 Zamorak Brews 0.533*1.5 = 0.8 Super Strengths 0.533*6 = 3.2 Prayer Potions 0.8*801 = 640.8 0.8*4,072 = 3,257.6 3.2*7,770 = 24,864 640.8 + 3,257.6 + 24,864 = 28,762.4 saved on supplies. Was that so difficult to understand? Was that so incredibly impossible as you stated? If his prayer potion numbers truly are wrong, you are correct. What? They don't include anything? I valued Range experience at 4gp each, I stated that did I not? I then used your average of 12 damage per cannonball. "Qeltar's boost rates from melee" are what you did. I'll be honest, from the amount of mistakes you have done, and purposely changing the results to suit you, I don't trust that what you have done is correct. "Zombie Monkies are only a 40k loss per hour" Woops sorry I meant for it to be 2.75x higher than that, what a silly error. I'd rather not have to walk you through the above calculations as I showed above for this one and next ones. I am hoping you are capable of testing them yourself. It really isn't that difficult. Feel free to post the calculations, but you haven't shown anything so far. You did what now? I recall you swapping it to Dharoks for no logical reason, I don't recall any proof however. I specifically stated that to compare if a cannon is worth using or not, they have to be tested the same way, the only difference being whether a cannon was used or not. So no, I didn't ignore that number, but you clearly ignored what I said. I know that for a fact to, as if you didn't ignore it, you would see it can't be compared to Dharoks. It could be compared to Dharoks if the test with a cannon had also been using Dharoks. I'm saying that somewhere, somehow, the test numbers for melee\vs DH must be off - 107 kills with whip\defender vs. 162 with DH means somethings is amiss; all his other numbers have those two much closer together, and this is for monsters with only 120 hp. Oh I get it now, you mixed up the numbers. That was why it made no sense. You were talking about Kalphites where I said you use 1,530 per hour, but then you said 2.7k per hour. Your numbers were all over the place, how could anyone of been expected to understand what you were trying to show. I'll show you what you said. You say that I said 1.5k was for a half hour. I never said that, I said 1.5k was for the hour, you misinterpretted. I've never mentioned a number close 2.7k. The closest number is 2,364, and that was from Aberrant Spectres. The 774 was what you used to complete the same amount of kalphites as without a cannon taking half the time. Now you say for Aberrant Spectres that I said 1.5k. Umm.... no, that 1.5k was for Kalhpites. I always used the 1.1k as the amount used in same time as without a cannon. So please excuse me for not understanding what you were trying to say because of your inability to understand what I said in the first place. I'll accept that explanation, as I said before, saying that I must have misunderstood the way you were using those numbers. Since when were the pots dropping so much? Task is completed quicker, so of course you don't need to use the same amount, you use less. Look above at the example with Aberrant Spectres.Looked at; these ones were dropping much more rapidly, when fewer prayer potions should have been used - he wasn't using any pots with defender+whip, but using several with DH (understandable). Pick one or another method, but we could use some results for Bloodvield testing. I did neither. I never "agreed" to use Aviansies as the money maker. I used the 400k though as what they make per hour regardless of how it is acquired. That was my point, there is so many ways to make 400k per hour, it is foolish to think everyone or even the average way is Aviansies. I'm saying that Avansies is a low common denominator, that most people can use; the majority of us higher level players can do GWD and whatnot, making slayer less efficient, but then the argument would have been about my moneymaking methods - so I'm using avansies. I don't see how we need "better" numbers, they are fine as they are. Dharoks is better experience on Bloodvelds, Qeltar's tests show that. Keep in mind he melee'd with a Neitiznot helm So he wasn't actually doing Slayer at the time. Not that much better; all his other tests show DH as much closer to whip+defender, and easily surpassed with a slayer mask. Even if the cannon only did get an extra 2,400 damage resulting in 19.2k worth of Range experience, it still makes Wyverns worth it. It was at 412k being needed with the money saved on supplies 392k or so now needs to be made per hour, making a cannon worth it. 392k means a savings of 1.2 minutes total, boosting our average slayer XP by.. around 100 XP per hour? Is that really worth the extra risk and hassle of a cannon? Does it have any meaningful effect on our calculations? And that doesn't count that you will be getting fewer melee kills, to the tune of 5% per hour, making for slightly less XP overall per kill, and mitigating the minuscule advantage of using a cannon. Simple math then is it? Lets look at this simple math: Aberrant Spectres with a cannon gets you an extra 208 kills per hour. 208/390*100 =53.3% So 53.3% of the possible experience goes to the cannon. In short you get the exact same amount of melee and Hitpoints experience per hour, but you get bonus Range and Slayer experience. 65,520 melee experience. 21,840 Hitpoints experience. 37,440 Range experience. That means the overall result is: 1.86x damage done is to melee. 0.62x damage done is to Hitpoints. 1.07x damage done is to Range. For everyone 1 experience of melee, you get 0.575 experience of Range. You apparently don't realize that cannon slows down your melee XP, due to time to setting up\reloading, and 53.3% doesn't go to the cannon - my numbers are quite simple. When a cannon deals 1 damage, you get 2 range XP. When a whip deals 1 damage, you get 4 melee XP and 1.33 HP XP - 5.33 XP vs. 2 XP. The point is, say without a Slayer Helm and prayer you get 10k Slayer experience per hour, and with you get 20k. You are always going to get the same amount of Range experience anyway. That wasn't what my argument was about, we'll let this one die. So you are saying whether on Slayer on Slayer or not, the bonuses of prayer and Slayer helm have no effect. Ok.... was I not just doing that off a Slayer task? Correct, glad you understand me. Regardless of if your on a slayer task, prayer and slayer helm will do nothing for a cannon. Err... what? Calculated for Kalphites you say, hmm. Then pray tell why you said it was 460k for Bloodvelds? I have already proven it was 169k for Bloodvelds, a far cry from 460k. Even more so once you calculate Range experience in. When did I supposedly switch a number with Kalphies. I never worked out a number to being 460k being needed I believe. Considering I proved Kalphites was 298k without Range being added in to it, where did I get the 460k from Kalhpites from then? You haven't proved anything, besides your calculations being wrong - and you haven't said anything about mine, or even why I said yours were incorrect. Good thing I didn't what? If you are referring to Range experience, you have been the one going on and on about me not having put it in. But apparently, according to what you say, If I do it will skew the results. I already explained why you can't use numbers for Dharoks as a comparison to the cannon at Bloodvelds, a fact which you seem unable or unwilling to grasp. And I'm saying you cant use whip's numbers either - you are using DH's prayer pots, and either DH is truly 60% faster then whip, in which case we should ditch the 8% bonus from a slayer helm and pray 10% strength on DH, or the whip\defender numbers are off. How about you repost what you said, i'd rather not look through 105 pages of text to find one little bit of information. What has training Slayer beyond 99 have to do with altering the average experience per charm? Very simple. Say summoning and slayer charms are introduced while you are at level 90 slayer. You train to 99 slayer, banking the charms. But from 90-99 slayer, you only get enough charms to level summoning from 16 to level 90, instead of 96. This means you won't get to use high level pouches from slayer for 90-96, and your average XP per charm from slayer will go down. If your already at 99 slayer, and get the equivalent charms of 99 slayer AGAIN, it would be the same as training 1-99 slayer; your getting the full XP. Oh right... For someone who didn't even know that they gave a higher amount of Slayer experience, of course you must be right with how much they give. How silly of me to think otherwise.... Good point, it's fortunate I looked it up on rune wiki, which, say what you want, holds more credibility with me then you. You'll find I am not the only one who gets those rates. Also note that is only 3 different things you stated (bad at maths I see). You really are a fool aren't you? "But zarfot is a machine or a zombie or whatever, other people aren't so it is impossible" Seriously I think you just can't cope that you are using worse methods or whatever else and that other people can get alot higher experience than you. The only reason for you that "Slayer Sucks" is because you suck at Slaying. Your responses are mostly illogical and are more often than not, made up. Oddly enough, you can't seem to find any problems with my methods or qeltars. And this is coming from you? I am willing to debate over the numbre provided you debate over them rather than trying to make up numbers to try and discredit what I have posted. I have gone through step by step to show how the calculations work, I asked you to see if there were mistakes. You never pointed out the mistakes so I can only assume there weren't any. I pointed them out in quite a few places, starting with the origionals, which you ignored and continued to build on your incorrect numbers. You seem to be getting less and less intelligent with each post. I've not once switched between those two different rates. I have stuck with 80-99 getting you 96 Summoning. You have been saying it has to be 1-99 or whatever else. So no, I do not have a "nasty habit" of switching between numbers. 13.8mil Slayer to 13mil Summoning experience is equivalent of 80-99 Slayer getting 1-96 Summoning. How is that hard to understand. The time I mentioned 1-99 is when I said that would get you over 96 and get you to the higher 97's or low 98's, or maybe even higher. Yes, because that's a really specific number. 'would get you over 96 and get you to the higher 97's or low 98's, or maybe even higher. '. Good to know your confident. We went through this pages ago. I said I never used a BOB, so therefore there was no switch. I said that if you want, others are able to using one if they want. I said that I presonally do not. You have more than enough room in your inventory even with a BOB, amazingly I mentioned this pages ago also. The delay you say I encounter is non-exsistant. I don't kill a monster, wait for the drop to show, pick it up, and then run to the next. That is a waste of time. While I am killing I move 1-2 steps at a time towards another monster between Whip hits, no time is lost for that. I then attack the monster before the first one even dies. So I am always in combat. So no, there is no time lost fot that. You stated that you had plenty of invo space without alching, thanks to your BOB (presumably war tortise). You don't have to wait for a drop, and given the few whip hits it takes to kill a dust devil, I find it unlikely that you run to the next one then slowly inch back to the drop site while attacking it so that you can pick up your drops; you would most likely kill it long before that, as the dust devils are often as much as a dozen squares apart, missing whip hits on both the running and the picking up of drops. Obviously this is more efficient then waiting for them to die, but you still miss quite a few hits. I'm experimenting with using bronze knives to lure several monsters over almost instantly, then killing them so that I lose very little time picking up drops, but I don't have any hard numbers from that. Plus it's kind of a pain to do. I'd rather just slay more relaxed and be able to talk to friends etc., which puts me off from testing :P

I tried dust devils yesterday, after getting them as a task, with a geyser titan. With pots and (not enough) room for drops, I only had enough froom for 7 monkfish.. and those things hit quite a bit on my dharoks. I think they would do a number on bandos... A healing familiar is a necessity, but when I went with unicorn and ancients (no alch), I didn't have enough room for the alchable drops like red d hide vambs.

Funny then how every single test I showed with the cannon I didn't include the Range experience. Add in the Range experience and it becomes more efficient, that is what you have said. Good thing my calcs include range XP, aint it? Aberrant Spectres was proven to be 393,014 gp per hour needing to be made for a cannon to be more efficient (so obviosuly that one is below 400k also). Take off the money saved no supplies brings it down to 364,251gp per hour. Say you value Range experience at 4gp each (just over 3.67). Then you also gain 105,888 worth of experience (at 4gp per experience and average 24 experience per cannonball which is 12 damage). That brings it down to 258,363 per hour that need to be made. Worth it? I think so. Unless the 1/2 hour we're calculating with cannon saves us 30k in supplies, I doubt it. Your equations are also quite inconsistent; notice that some of the equations include range XP (such as most of mine, at least the 'final result' ones) while others don't; I think we need to get our numbers straight first anyway, as you continue to insist on using incorrect values. Skeletal Wyverns was proven to be 431,331. Taking off money saved on supplies makes it about 412k. Say you still average 12 damage a cannonball and value experience at 4gp each. That brings it down to 363k that needs to be made per hour. So yes that one is worth it also. Nope, as your numbers still don't include anything, such as us valueing range XP at 3k from Avansies, nor qeltar's boosted rates from melee, or the actual benefit from the supply reduction. Level 90 Dagannoths in Waterbirth Dungeon was proven to be 405,972. Taking off money saved on supplies makes it 382,379. Add on the experience value brings is down to 306,923. Also worth using a cannon on.See abive Bloodvelds was proven to be 168,875 (not your 350k or so, as I mentioned you compared it to the wrong one). Take off money saved on supplies brings it down to 136,945. Add on experience value brings it down to 80,341. Definately worth using I believe.... I proved that 168,875 wrong, why are you ignoring that and continuing to use that value? Also, see above. So umm, on what task wasn't the cannon worth it again? You changed my quote and made it say "referring to kalphites". I wasn't referring to Kalphites at all, so it was definately your mistake and not mine. I did talk about them, but that was about 4 posts back or so. 'Scuse me? Must I include the entire quote? Notice how I didn't change any of it, please. Honestly, let this drop. Arguing over stupid things like this will get nowhere. Of course you will be meleeing. I have been the one saying all this time you attack alongside the cannon, why would I suddenly change that? Pot rate that Qeltar seems to use is also once every 10 minutes.So why are the pots suddenly dropping so much? I'm not saying your wrong, I'm assuming I'm missing something. I'm in a good mood, no person attacks \ What 60%? What numbers were supposedly wrong and right?Our 11.9\12.3\12.5 vs. his 20.9 average damage per cannonball. But the money rate isn't in the 600ks it is 400k, so Chinchompas aren't worth it. Changing one 400k per hour method to any other method of obtaining 400k per hour makes how much difference again? All that changes is the experience, but then again some methods of getting money get you no-little experience at all. You were suggesting we change money makers, but since you agree to keep Avansies, we can use them, where the range value is closer to 3 gp per hour (but again, impossible to calculate due to aforementioned problems) You read my post, and still think you compared Bloodvelds correctly... maybe there isn't any hope for you after all. You can't compare Dharoks with no cannon to Whip with a cannon, if you are trying to find out if a cannon is worth using. As shown above, you only need to make about 80k or so per hour for a cannon to be worth using at Bloodvelds. After factoring in experience and money saved on supplies, Bloodvelds are 80% more efficient with a cannon than without. Still no idea where the 2,400 comes from. Extra damage from the cannon, what extra damage? 514 cannonballs = approximately 6,168 damage for 12,336 Range experience.Honestly, we need some better numbers on bloodvields; unless DH truely is 30% better XP then rune defender\whip, in which case we should be using that instead, PLUS our +10% strength pray for 5% more XP. 12 extra wyvern kills @ 200 HP each = 2,400 damage. Well that was based on no results what so ever. Do you know what a ratio is? You have assumed that cannon will do half the damage and melee the other half, and you know this how? Oh right, from Qeltars numbers.... which give absolutely no indication of the ratio. He never recorded the melee and Range experience gain, without which a ratio cannot be determined. Yes, I know what a ratio is; a number that describes the realtionship between two other numbers, at least in our usage. And how is that based on no results whatsoever? That's simple math.. We're taking the extra kills the cannon gets us, and I'm merely using it to point out that XP from the cannon doesn't count nearly as much as XP from melee, including the fact that a cannon slows down melee slightly. You would be meleeing also while using a cannon, would you not? Will that not mean it will have the exact same affect on your melee experience? Of course not... because that is like too obvious! It mustn't be right if it is that easy! Mh himm. Except that they wouldn't be doing anything to the kills your cannon was getting; so using a cannon on or off slayer tasks shouldn't make a difference. Pray tell, where did this number come from this time? I proved it was 169k, furthur calculated to be 80k. You compared it to Dharoks (which was wrong), and got it to be 354k. So umm, where did this number come from now? Actually, it was calculated for kalphites, which you seem to have switched with bloodvields, which should be significantly more then 354k, as pointed out above. When did I calculate Range experience in with the results 2 posts of mine back? I hadn't put them in. So no, Range experience hadn't even been put in yet. Money saved depends on what you wold have used in the first place. For the results I showed earlier in this post, it was about 20-25k for a few. He wasn't using a Black Mask or +10% strength in either the test with a cannon or without, so that is fine. Dharoks numbers are higher because you kill them faster with Dharoks, kind of obvious I thought, but then, that is when thinking logically. Dharoks is more accurate and hits alot higher than the Whip in this case, but yes it is slowet to attack with. Clearly the accuracy and damage increase more than makes up for that though. Good thing you didn't, they would only have skewed your results even more. Guess we have to go with DH then, that and +10% strength seem to be teaching our whip + defender combo a few lessons. I checked myself, it is actually page 80. I read what you said about it, you said that from Qeltar's numbers you got the ratio to be 0.89:1. Good, also read what I said about high slayer\low summoning throwing off the results if you don't continue to train slayer after 99. Many Slayer monsters give more Slayer experience or something even less than their Hitpoints. So you apparently already have the averages... but with the wrong numbers, hence making the averages not so accurate? 'Suse me again, if you truel wish I can change it. Suquahs are 106 slayer XP, not 108, hence their slayer XP per hour will go up 105. This will make our average slayer XP go up 4.5 XP per hour, a difference of 4,050 XP from 1-99 slayer. Good thing you caught that, it was really skewing my results ;) (sarcasm) Still ignoring that I see. I have mentioned several times that while not getting his rates I do get close. In the case of Aberrant Spectres I even got more experience than what his guide said. So yes, those rates are easily obtainable. Last I checked, Zombies aren't real, so they still have a flaw. Zombies aren't real... what? Oh, and I guess that we should have 4different sections. 'Zarfot and Ydasil's XP" and "Everyone else's 100% attention XP", at roughly 50% lower, then "Everyone else's XP when doing normal slaying" at 30% lower still. I guess I should have made 3 threads... (Sarcasm again, ignore it at will : )) Actually it is 150k. He said it took him 530 hours. What I find hilarious is that you with only 76 Slayer (not trying to insult) is trying to specifically say what can be made from drops during Slayer. I'm sure someone who has access top all the drops, and got 80m from Slayer over the course of 13.8mil experience will be a much more accurate average than what you believe is or isn't possible... but you know... i'm just thinking logically again. Look above, every single task is worth using a cannon on at only a 400k earning rate.Sticking to incorrect numbers and refusing to change or ague about them, instead simply stating and restating them, really doesn't warrant a 'look at my numbers! I proved it!' post. I will be ignoring any further posts after this that say 'see above', as well as my own :P Do you even know why I mentioned 1-2k? It had nothing to do with swapping tasks or going to Spiritual Mages. That was where I was referring to piety at Skeletal Wyverns. You guess 4-5 minutes range. How many Skeletal Wyverns would you think you could kill in that time using piety? At least 5? Up to 10? 5-10 kills in 5 minutes is 1-2k. Since you lose that much time banking, you lose out on that much experience. So that is what I was talking about with Wyverns.Odd, 99 Slayer isn't high? 1 Summoning isn't low? What game have you been playing? If you stopped at 99 Slayer, having started at 80, you would get 96 Summoning from level. Is that so difficult to understand? It helps if you understand what I'm saying; you seem to have a nasty habbit of switching from 1-99 slayer getting 96 summon to 80-99 slayer getting 96, back and forth, and so on and so on. Which calculated numbers are supposedly incorrect? They can't all be wrong, since I calculated the 110k loss at Monkies and you agreed that is correct. My numbers for the cannon were correct. So please actually explain where. Again, I'm saying that your calculated numbers from bloodvields I don't think I said 26 difference in strength bonus. I said around 20 or so. See for yourself: A difference of 20 strength bonus. The extra +5% for Salve and +13% from piety is an extra 16 levels. If as you say they are about a 50:50 split in determining how high you hit, I have a better chance of hitting higher in what I use. Last time I used the 'ole calculater, 5 + 13 was 18. Anyway, those are percentages, not numbers, so boosting our 105 strength bonus from Zombies would make them, combined, +5.25 from Salve and +15 from Piety, for an overall of slightly higher then yours. Also consider that I am potting twice as often as you, with an average of 5 strength level bonus, or roughly 6 equipment bonus, assuming a 50:50 split. Oh, and since my attack is slightly higher then yours, my rate will be closer to even with yours. And the frequency of attack is not to be discredited.[/color] I can pick up crimsons + drops and lose no time. I can attack the enxt monster without losing time. Potting as you hit results in no time lost. Eating as you hit results in little time lost, but I used a Unicorn to heal, so no time lost. I might rarely miss a Whip hit, but nothing to what you would call "significant".Why did we suddenly switch from BOB to unicorn? Won't that limit our inventory space for drops, since before we were relying on it to with all our pots? Oh, and you encounter a delay nearly every monster with picking up drops and running to the next. Slightly off topic: Just totaled up page 15 of this thread, even including the short posts, it's 105 pages, 41,715 words. One page. Craziness, soon I'll have the longest thread in Rants, and by far the most text :) Also note: I have 107 posts on this thread, probably totaling around 400 pages, similar to some of the longer novels :wall:

Noooo... I get 99k at zombie monkies without a summon :P Seems like I should be getting more then at level 40 single combat zombies, though...

I've ran a test, and I got way past 85k. Honestly, it is easily possible to get 90-95k easily, and it's been reported (and possible) to gain 100k+ xp/hour. 12k xp/hour, 120k. Really? Its starting to sound like my Zombie rates are off, I currently get 99k (no summoning) XP per hour with piety\super sets.

It is true actually. The cannon speeds the tasks up fast enough so that if you make at least 400k per hour it is more efficient to use a cannon. Not for dagganoths; bloodvields is the only task, and the difference of 5% (amazingly balanced out) increase in kill speed is virtually nonexistent. That's not entirely helpful. I'm trying to show that killing the same one with a cannon is more efficient than without. My working out for the Dagannoth's if you would care to look was on the level 90 Dagannoths already, not the ones in the lighthouse. The only difference was killing them at Waterbirth dungeon for multicombat where a cannon can be used. So no, what Inuashakent didn't really help with the Dagannoths : . True.

The cannon does depend on the level. Why else would I only get 30.8% of the experience at 0 range compared to 89? I personally wasn't completely sure at first. Inuashakent brought this up in his Slayer guide and I described controlled tests that could be performed to see once and for the answer. He tested and he agrees that level does affect the cannon (he still takes Range pots with him on Slayer tasks where he uses a cannon, I personally do not find them worth taking). Say it is as you say and that is experience, will it be the same on all monsters? Obviously not as with 0's counted in the Defence of the monster plays a significant role. The Range experience isn't even that important when calculating if a cannon is worth it. If it gave no experience, it would still be worth using as it would speed up tasks and you can easily make back enough money within the allotted time. Hence why I'm using 1/6th miss rate; most cannonable monsters are very low defence. The ragne XP is somewhat important; it improves the efficiency of a cannon by ~25%. And I proved that it wasn't worth using.. except bloodvields, where the rates made basically no difference. You have got to be kidding, do I seriously have to explain that? Look at the image I posted from Qeltar's database, what does it show? 60 minutes to use up 2,364 cannonballs. Since you would only be using cannon for 28 minutes, it is 1,103 used in that 28 minutes. How did you not know that? Hell, when did I even mention the number of 1.5k? *looks through* Yep, nothing even resembling 1.5k. So was there a mistake in my math? Nope. Did I over adjust? Nope. The amount never dropped, you are still using them up at the rate of 2,364 per hour. Even at 23k per hour as you say, you would still get 76,107gp worth of Range experience in that time (with it valued at 3gp each). Mistake? Probably, now that I look at it. But it WAS there, and mislead me at first. Now I understand your use of Qeltar's numbers; hence why I use them in my tasks now. The range XP is accounted for in my equations I'm sorry, I must be going blind. Where were my numbers changing so much? Also note here where I said you save money on supplies. That means also for the Aberrant spectres, you would save 641 on the Zamorak brews (worth 801 each). You save 4,570 on the Super Strengths (worth 3,667 each), you save 24,758 on prayer potions (7,737 each). Also somehow he used 6 (4) prayer pots without a cannon and 1.5 (4) with a cannon. That doesn't make sense due to prayer would drain at the same rate. You save about 30k all up in supplies due to the task going quicker. A cannon is even more efficient now. See above, but what about the pot rate? Aren't you supposed to be meleeing Specters while cannoning? I've no need to "drop the numbers" as you are accusing me. You've only made yourself look like a fool by saying that. The amount went from 2,364 to 1,103 because you would only be there 28 minutes compared to 60... wow, that is so difficult to understand! See above, but I'm not going to keep this argument going. Regardless of earning levels, the time taken and money spent wouldn't have changed, you made a mistake. Wait let me get this straight, you are now saying because I used Qeltar's numbers (from a 60 minutes test, not a 30 minutes. I interpolated the result), that it is inaccurate? The number wouldn't be out by 10-15% also, and if it did. It would just as likely to be 10-15% less experience, making even higher. What real ones? Honestly, a couple posts ago you accuse me of not thinking before I post, and here you are, doing just that! The amount of experience received from the cannon doesn't matter specifically. The cannon is already more efficient before the exprience is even calculated in. So regardless of how much experience you get, it will only become more efficient. Seriously, take your advice and think before you reply. Oddly enough, the rest of his numbers appear to be much more in line, and the difference of 60% over your and my rates is rather unusual. You really do not read do you? 1.5k.... 2.7k... I never mentioned either of those numbers. I claim? Did I not specifically express I got these rates from Qeltar's Database? Did I not prove I did also by posting a picture straight from it? 1.1k was the new number I used? It was the only number I used. Please actually read before you post. 775? Where did that one come from then? If I had calculated the cost with that number, it would have been 147,250gp for the cannonballs. Amazingly I never mentioned that number either. Excuse me, 774 cannonballs. My bad. See above for the 1.5k. I think I misunderstood the 2.3k; I now see what you mean by your numbers. So again, I never mentioned 775 or 175 kills. It was 182 kills. You say I don't understand your calculations, with how you're interpretting mine I doubt you even understand yours at this rate. First of all, it was 182 kills per hour with a cannon. You are not only killing with a cannon, you are also meleeing them. So of course it won't be 182 kills with a cannon. "Something's not right" well geez, that would be you. I find it funny that you are actually trying to say I said that. Of all the numbers you have replied with I think only one was one I actually used, and that was 1.1k cannonballs. So you managed to highlight what inaccuracy, if anything you highlighted your incompetency. A few mistakes on both sides :) Couldn't have anything to do with it being a lousy metaphor though could it? However, now that you actually explain it it does make some sense. Although honestly, with how you said it, did you really think that made it simpler, or more room for incorrect interpretation? Had you actually mentione in the first place what the 'beginning concept' was it would have helped. I just stated it, but forget it... It was a tiny point, anyway. You say it is impossible to compare chinchompas to Aviansies, why? It comes down to which is more efficient to train on. To get 40k Range experience per hour with 40k profit or 240k Range experience hour at a loss of 480k. As I mentioned in my previous post, Aviansies doesn't have to be your money maker. I personally simply view it as you have to make X amount of money per hour for it to be more efficient, regardless of how you obtain said money. So yes, they can be compared, and no at an earning rate of 400k per hour chinchompas are not worth using. Avansies is our standard moneymaker; changing it makes a difference in the rest of our calcs. No need to, we can simply use Chins, assuming a money rate in the 600ks that would make it worth it. A terrible job? The only thing you responded with were literally made up numbers. You either purposely or accidentally (i'm leaning towards purposely due to how your reply was set out) changed the numbers to try and make mine look wrong. You are only furthur showing that they are right and you can't cope with that for whatever reason. I'll not even go to your issues of inaccuracy, as I doubt you should even be trying to accuse someone of inaccuracy at the moment. It only made you look like a fool. Terrible was the wrong word, although my numbers weren't made up. Mistakes by both of us : Furthur proof showing how incompetent you are being. Where did 12,200 come from. 53*200 = 10,600. Where did you even get 2,400 damage from? I can't think of any way that you could have got that number. The task with a cannon increases speed by 30% than without. Due to the increased kill rate, you save on supplies. You save 8,887 on Super Restores, 1,824 on Sara Brews, 408 on Super Attacks, 1,940 on Super Strengths, and 5,924 on Pineapple Pizza. That is an overall saving of 19k simply because you kill faster. The only task it makes a difference on would be Bloodvields, where 9k really won't change anything significantly. 2,400 damage is from the extra hits by cannon. That is because I made a mistake, i'm not sure how I got 33.2 either :? . 177/280 = 0.632 or 63.2%, that means it is indeed 38 minutes. I'll redo it. So it would take 37.9 minutes to kill 177 of them. That means you use 786 cannonballs in that time at a cost of 149,340gp. You have 22.1 minutes to make back that money. That measn you have to make 405,972 per hour. At an earning rate of 400k per hour that is worth it. You must remember you save money due to less supplies which will bring it under 400k. Forgotten: Adjusting Qeltar's melee rates. 400k per hour is break even, where we neither gain nor lose time by using cannon. Why would I be getting 2.67x the melee experience? It doesn't matter how much melee experience you are getting. The cannon is more efficient than without if you make 400k per hour. I have used 190 as the cost of each cannonball as that is what it was when I first started this. An extra 2gp each is so insignificant. At least you do finalyl see that a cannon is worth using. You also can't say it is 11.6 damage per cannonball. You do not know the ratio of whcih you get Range to Melee experience. You guessed. For all we know it could be average of 17.98 per cannonball, but again, we don't know. Actually, we do.. You tested, on blodvields, I calculated\tested. The 2.67x melee XP is quite simple... 2x range XP per damage from cannon, melee = 4x damage +1.3x HP - a total of 5.33, divided by 2 for 2.67x the XP for the same damage dealt from melee vs. cannon. How are his melee rates now "suspect". You have been saying all this time that your rates and bang on with Qeltar and that he is always right and whatever else. However, now that his numbers show you're wrong... well of course... that must mean his were wrong all along! However this is funny, I never brought up the Slayer Helm. For a start, he hasn't done that as a test so I can't use his numbes. Second, it would be used on both tests would it not? Would it not affect them at a similar/exact same rate? Same is said for prayer. I don't need to factor them in. They would indeed both increase experience per hour, however this simply shows a cannon is worth using. Why use his Dharoks numbers, you can't compare Dharoks to the cannon due to it being different. Although I will concur he relies on food instead of prayer when he melee'd with a cannon. That is still a closer comparison as it was the same attack bonus. However, from seeing those calculations, you are finally understand how to calculate if a cannon is worth. Congratz! However, it can't be compared to Dharoks, and the +10% Strength and Slayer Helm bonuses don't matter. It affects them by the same amount each. What? +10% strength and slayer helm do nothing to cannon.. #-o Since Bloodvelds are only at a rate of 169k being needed, that more than makes it worth it for that task. Either way, if that is done on every Slayer task it will add up. Zarfot mentioned that before that a simple matter of 3 ticks of the runescape clock on each monster adds up significantly (3 ticks = 1.818 seconds). Try 460k. Actually every single one of those shows cannon was worth it. Bloodvelds only requires 169k to be made per hour also. You ignore so many factors. Those were without Range experience being calculated in (that makes it more efficient), faster kill rate is more money saved on supplies. It adds up, and simply put, a cannon is always worth using. While I admit you are now learning how to show if a cannon is worth it, you need to understand what it can be compared to. The only difference in the above tests was whwther he used a cannon or not. You can't change it to being Whip+cannon being compared to Dharoks, that is wrong. Range XP was calculated in, money saved on supplys is around 8k, we have no numbers for whip + black mask + 10% strength, and his DH numbers are oddly much higher then his meele, unlike his other examples, leading us to believe that one or more of his tests was off for one reason or another. His DH XP is generally close to my adjusted slayer numbers, so for the sake of brevity I'm using them instead of waiting to get bloodvields as a task and doing them myself, making the breakeven rate a nice 360k. That is where it shows you are doing it wrong. We aren't worried about it being inefficient for Range experience. We are working out if it is efficient for training Slayer... which it is. All tasks I mentioned are worth using a cannon on. "due to your forgetting to factor increased kill speed from black mask\superhuman strength in." If you wore that when not using a cannon, and when using a cannon, what is the difference to how I worked it out? Overall you are going to get more experience, but a cannon is still going to be just as much worth it. At Bloodvelds it increased the speed of kills by 192%. Without a cannon it is 33.6 seconds per kill, with a cannon it is 11.5 seconds per kill. Also three times faster. See above. It came from his thread when he was going for 2,376 total levels. It was even reposted on his Slayer guide at around page 79 I think when someone asked about it. Look for it there. Also note the charms that "you and everyone else" is getting can't be that far off. You said from Qeltar's numbers it was 0.89, Zarfot for 0.94, not that far off it seems. Sorry, didn't read page 79, and you apparently didn't read my post about summoning vs. slayer levels. It is true about Babies, and yes most Players do block Iron Dragons. Please explain how 150*99 = 13725. You see, if you do 150*100, all you do is add two 0's to end making it 15k exactly. So if you take off just a merem 150, it becomes 14,850. I also explained where I got the numbers from Suqahs from, which you purposely neglected to see. They have 105 Hitpoints, but they give about 108 Slayer experience each on average. What? I was unaware that they give more slayer XP then their HP, but... why are we arguing over this, we already have the averages. I mentioned (more than twice), that you don't have to gain money via Aviansies. It comes down to if you can make that much money per hour, it is more efficient. Keep in mind I have stated many times that the real rate is actually higher that needs to be made up. True, but almost everyone has access to avansies, thus avoiding arguments over who can and can't achieve other moneymaking methods I use. Back to insulting someone simply because they get better rates than you? I don't see how talking to friends slows you down by about 50%. Is it hard to type while your avatar is killing a monster? If the monster dies you click to attack another and continue typing. It isn't that hard. Nope, some sort of machine doesn't count as an insult - he may be able to attain those rates; more power too him. I'm not quite sure how he manages, though, so far I haven't seen anyone else that gets them. @ chatting with friends: Yes, it is. When using AIM\ICQ\gmail\yahoo mail\posting on forums at the same time as Rune, I generally tend to finish whatever sentence I'm writing before clicking on the next monster to attack; in the greator demons case, I frequently 3 hit monsters - barely leaving me time to switch windows, start typing, notice the monster died, switch windows again, click on the next monster, and work picking up drops into the hits. I do a pretty good job juggling them, but it slows me down quite a bit, especially when I'm not devoting 100% attention. Unofficial tests though, no way of proving anything and varies from person to person. Just pointing out that Zombies don't have that flaw. Making 80m from 13.8mil Slayer experience while using a cannon and piety sums it all up to be honest. You seem adamant you are right simply because the rate was only 466k. Do you not recall anything i've said at all? You yourself got 15.7k Slayer experience per hour from the slowest task the average Slayer will do. It only gets higher from there, moreso with a cannon. Actually, you aren't going to make anywhere near that much. 160k profit with piety and a cannon? No. Oh, and your continued arguments about a cannon doesn't really matter... We have proved that for everything but Bloodvields, where a cannon barely makes a difference, it's useless at our earning rates. Making up more numbers and saying I said them again are we? When did I mention I could receive Spiritual mages as a task and then get there in under 2 minutes? Please quote where I said that. Oh look you did quote that post *looks through* nope didn't mention anything about banking for a new task, thats odd isn't it? You were the one that said (a couple post back) about the Skeletal Wyverns needing to bank in under 1-2 minutes, or something along those lines. Himm, interesting how we took 1-2k XP an hour off our 60k or so XP per hour rates at mages for banking - doesn't that mean that it takes 1-2 minutes to bank? Not really sure what your talking about with wyverns - I don't really know how long those would take to bank on; I'd guess in the 4-5 minute range. Zarfot started at 99 Slayer and 1 Summoning, that is about as far apart as it gets. He got 0.94 Summoning experience to 1 Slayer. He got 99 slayer's XP worth of charms, hence his numbers don't include high slayer\low summoning, assuming you stop at 99. You said that it should have been 0.7 not 0.9 for for the Summoning. You then followed up by saying that you worked it out to being 0.89. Profits incorrect in the first place? That was at 50k profit from Slayer and and 110k loss per hour at Monkies. You yourself said it was 50k profit, that is why I used it (even though I know and believe it to be higher). I worked out the loss of Monkies being 110k per hour, you then agreed with that. So please explain why you are now saying the profits are wrong? I wasn't talking about those numbers; obviously those are correct. I'm referring to your 'calculated' numbers, which were incorrect. Uhh... no. You neglect to read what I posted again. In both methods I have the same max hit. The 13% boost to Strength allows me to hit equal to that of when on Slayer due to inferior equipment. So yes, it comes down to the 2.5% accuracy on Dust Devils. I must have missed the spot where you said 13% higher hits is equal to the tiny equipment difference - that was settled several posts ago with a salve ammy (e) and my higher stats nicely balancing out against your equipment; which was never 26 higher strength bonus in the first place. All I can say is idiotic at the least. Did I not mention that I have the same max hit *looks through* So the extra 13% Strength bonus just evens out the loss in equipment. Guess I did. Extra combat time is very minimal. See above, and it is quite significant. You can't tell me you can pick up crimson charms + drops, run to the next monster, eat, and pot, all without missing a single whip stroke - yet I can make that claim for Zombie monkies.

It's best to make whatever sells best, then buy when you need them. You can get some great deals; a week or so ago, I bought 6k pony pouches almost instantly, spent 3 hours crafting them into scrolls, and sold (most of them) for max on the GE instantly; the rest took a day or so to sell. A quick 3m profit; pay attention when your crafting. I'd assume making scrolls then selling for min would allow you to buy however many ponys\scrolls you need, at the best deal.

^ ^ I dunno, 75k seems awfully slim to make up for that. Here we go with another long series of calculations. (Inushkant: Me and ydrsal have around 140 pages worth of typing, collectively, arguing. I've never gotten into a debate quite like that one, but I think I finally have the advantage; we've come full circle, now arguing about XP rates again, but both of us being far more educated on the topic. I never wanted to even wanted to know that much about slayer :) ) Armor Zombies: 75k XP, X profit Monkey Zombies: 112k XP, -120k profit 120k + X sacrificed for 37k XP\hour 120k earned at avansies in 18 minutes, plus 12k XP 2 hours @ armor zombies = 2X profit + 150k XP 1.54 hours @ Monkeys + .46 hours @ Avansies = 0 profit + 190.9k XP 40.9k XP sacrificed for 2x profit 20.5k XP sacrificed for X profit 1 hr at Avansies = 400k profit + 40k XP Zombies = 112k XP and -120k vs. 40k XP and +400k, Zombies vs. Avansies = 72k XP for 520k XP = 7.2 GP\XP without comparisons Unless your method earns over 148.1k GP per hour, ALL costs included, Zombie monkies are better. Unless our numbers are off, but 75k sounds about right due to slower attacking with single zone, no summon (-12k XP right there), and the time to pick up drops. Get back to me when you get results for your GP tests, I'm interested in this :thumbsup: Unfortunately, however, I value range XP more highly, so I will still be inclined to stick to Zombie Monkies\Avansies - that and the fact that I don't care about money, at all :P Still, if there's a more efficient combat training method... I'm all for it :)

Oddly enough, I'm with you on that. OT: Jad's old melee was him taking a front leg and smacking you sideways; I'm not sure what his new one is, but watching The_Murder21's videos should show you. From what I recall, at least with the old Jad, you had to be praying as he started his animation, so watching for it would do no good - hence why melee protect was always used, only switching to range\mage when those animations started, and switching back as they hit. Then again, I've gotten to him once, and died in 2 hits. But my advice still holds...