compfreak847

At ape atoll, I get 240 xp per grey chin with Void. I get a little over half that at Mummies, so probably around 140 XP at zombies. At your range level, without void, you will be getting about 30% less XP, so you would get roughly: 168 XP\chin at Ape Atoll 93 XP\chin at Zombies 1,272,526 XP from 80 - 85 range. 7574 chins at Ape Atoll. 13,683 chins at Zombies. You can get around 1k chins \ hour at Ape Atoll, around 800 at mummies\zombies. So 7574 chins + ~7.5 hours at Ape Atoll 13,683 chins + ~17 hours at Zombies. Costwise: 7574 chins = 3,006,878 GP 13,683 chins = 5,432,151 GP Final: Ape Atoll = 3m and 7.5 hours Zombies = 5.4m and 17 hours Hope this answers your question, feel free to respond with any questions :)

Care to elaborate? I'm guessing this is an attempt at trolling :? Well, the only thing you told about Slayer is 'training combat'. But Slayer is a skill on his own, it's not only about training combat. Slayer is unique, look at those boring repetitive skills such as fletching, cooking, woodcutting, mining, even training combat @ bandits or at those monkeys is repetitive. Why slayer doesn't suck? Because of the possibilities Because their aint alot repetitive aspects than other skills have What about solving a clue now and then, using your keris at kalphite guardians etc... And another thing, in my opinion, Slayer is indeed THE best to train combat. But not in xp/hour, cause like you said, indeed there are better places to camp at. But Slayer is the best because of the variety of tasks (creatures to kills) that's what I like, and that is my opinion! It's just nice to train Slayer, but not only for the combat experience Although on a normal slaying day, I can get 600k+ xp in Att/str/def, so it isn't bad xp either. I would prefer to commit suicide in stead of training 600k xp at those monkeys. Note: These are my thoughts of Slayer. I respected yours, I would like it if you respect mines. I would respecties yoursies if you typed weller grammar and spealling. Seriously though, it does make an impact on how you are views by others - try sending in a resume full of typos, and see if you get the job. Ok. Please re read my post. I DID cover your post; like I said, the ONLY reason to train slayer is fun. Your sacrificing XP, time, charms, and drops for a training method with more variety. I respect that; but that means it's NOT the best way to train combat. Definition of best: (Merriam Webster Dictionary) 1: excelling all others 2: most productive of good : offering or producing the greatest advantage, utility, or satisfaction 3: most , largest If you find it fun, so be it - but it isn't the best for training, in terms of XP and\or fun. Personally, I'd rather level to 99 at monkies in the background while doing something else, then when I want to play, do stuff I find more enjoyable like boss hunting or PVP. Slaughtering level 80 monsters continously, while getting slower XP, isn't as fun to me as PVP or boss hunting, at least not in the long haul.

So far only one task however. Wait till you have done alot more. I've done two trials to his comparison six. My 3rd should be done this evening. I guess this argument will be put on hold for a couple of days. Yes sometimes I have to pick up drops but that doesn't lose attack time. Eating at the right will still slow you down, but by 0.5-1 Whip hit. As for running between monsters, yes I do have to run sometimes.... for about 2 steps. They spawn close together, and I always try to have 2 attacking me at once. This allows me to always be attacking and the time to run to another doesn't matter, because as I move towards another one, I am still attacking one. Everything is still fine in my eyes. Zombie Monkies will simply have a higher Defence level than Dust Devils. With piety, I'm hitting more then you are on dust devils - and I'm ALWAYS hitting, I NEVER miss a single opportunity for a whip hit - unlike your dust devils, which, perfect though you may be, your not going to ALWAYS hit PERFECTLY. I didn't even count the time (which, actually, IS 10 seconds - it's the edge of the screen and back) to make them aggressive; factoring that in would cut my XP by roughly 900 over the course of an hour. I'll test later. Go right ahead. Let me know if you get quite a bit less XP with it; it's the only way that can explain the fact that your getting more XP with superhuman strength. I won't say I never miss a hit, but I rarely do. Also at zombies every 10 mins you need to run away (which takes longer than 10 seconds i'm sure). However, that is not alot of time lost in the long run, that is about how much I would lose with missed Whip hits. It doesn't, try it yourself - the first 10 minute, you run north on the little ledge about a dozen squares and back. The second time usuall takes west the same amount; occasionally you have to go up and down the ladder, which is closer to 14 seconds. Pots are drank while hitting. If there is one other person, you don't have to run that much further. The 144 crimsons wasn't from me. If you recall back to when I posted the average Summoning experience per hour during all the Slayer tasks, I got the averages from Zarfot's guides. I said that I personally don't get that high. I also said that I get about 100 crimsons per hour while on Slayer for Waterfiends. Add in the other charms and the equivalent of maybe 110. Well, since your using Zarfot's rates for all your arguments, why would you come out and say you get 30% less then him? I get about that too, so I agree, but it's certainly working against you if you can't even get close to your chosen rates. That is wrong. A 15% bonus to Attack level isn't a 15% bonus to accuracy. I was hitting at that high a rate due to the use of a Slayer Helm. If I say turned on incredible reflexes (+15% Attack prayer), I would hit more often. That isn't 7.5% or whatever you think it is though. Put simply with Slayer and no attack prayer, I am hitting with the equivalent of 108 Attack on every Whip hit. Each hit is being calculated with that number. With an extra 15% from prayer, I would have 122 Attack. How much more often would I hit now? Not alot of room for change, I might hit overall 95% of the time though. Wrong, you would hit 7.5% less zeros - assuming you would hit 92.5% normally, meaning 7.5% zeros, you would hit around 6.95% zeros, making your overall hits 93 instead of 92.5%. A 15% bonus to hits means that you hit 0s 7.5% less, not that you hit 7.5% more. What you don't understand is that your attack level is in effect all the time. You can't say for 92.5% I would have hit anyway and the rest is determind by the extra bonus. You only hit 92.5% of the time due to the increased Attack. A person with 122 attack would hit slightly more often on Dust Devils compared to someone with 108. Either way it doesn't matter, as the bonus is always in effect. See above post. How was I doing it the wrong way? Elaborate please. The only "wrong thing" you mentioned before was that I wasn't factoring in Range experience. I explained why it didn't matter for this. The point is, with a cannon, you would complete a task of Aberrant Spectres in 47.7% of the time it would take without. You would spend 209k to save that 32 minutes. However, you would have used up about 2 minutes on the task to load the cannon up all the time. You have still have 30 mins free time in which to make up that much. If as you say I factor in Range experience, that makes the cannon even better, not worse. If you say value your Range experience at 5gp per experience point, that means in Range experience you gained 137,875gp in Range experience. That means that on the task you spent the equivalent of 71,695gp in order to complete the task that much fastre as well as the Range experience. That means a cannon is worth it if you can make over 143,390gp/h. Now obviously not everyone values their Range experience at 5gp each, but since there will be a value regardless, the cannon only becomes better, not worse. Your doing it wrong. Don't pick it by task; look at the numbers for a cannon. I guess you've forced me to do them myself. Here goes. Cannonball: Average hit of 12.5 (15 average hit; misses 1/6th the time) Average slayer monster's HP is 120; given the average hit of 12.5, you will hit a KO hit 1/9.6 times, or 10.4% of the time - of that time, you will lose, on average, half of the max hit, meaning that 10.4% of the time you will only hit 6.25, reducing our average hit by .625, for a total of: Average hit: 11.9 (rounded) 11.9 = 11.9 Slayer XP + 23.8 Range XP Value of Range XP: 480k + 1 hr w\ Grey Chinchompas = 240k range XP 1 hr = 400k profit w\ Avansies Total cost of 240k range XP = 880k, 3.67 GP\Range XP Cost of 1 cannonball = 190 GP + .34 seconds (5 minutes for 1,000 cannonballs = .34 seconds per ball) .34 seconds = 400,000 GP @ Avansies / 3600 seconds = 111.11 X .34 (seconds per ball) = 37.7 GP per .34 seconds Cost of 1 cannonball = 190 + 37.7 = 227.7 If your using ONLY a cannon, without meleeing in a single combat zone, cost per cannonball 190 + 400 (1000 cannonballs vs. 1 hour of Avansies). This would be true at places like Black Demons; however, it is assumed you would also be using a bow, bringing in an additional 50k range XP. Range XP is worth 3.67 GP, so 50k range XP = 183.5k; subtracting that from the 400k at avansies leaves us with: Cost of 1 cannonball, using a cannon + ranging in a single combat zone = 190 + (216500 / 1000) = 406.5 GP per cannonball. Now, on to calculate the Range XP given. In a multi zone, we get: 23.8 range XP for 227.7 GP, making for: 227.7/23.8 = 9.57 GP\Range XP, vs. 3.67 GP for Range XP with Avansies, loss of 5.9 GP per XP. The 5.9 GP\XP cost is going towards slayer, earning us half the range XP, or 11.8 GP\slayer XP. 11.8 GP\XP X 13,034,000 XP = 153.8M GP\99 slayer - almost 1.5x our calculated cost of 99 slayer, in terms of time lost - proving cannon anything but worthwhile. And alll of that is HARD data, except for the 1/6th zero rate - which I believe is quite conservaitive, and really has very little effect on XP. How about ranging with a cannon at single combat at a place like black demons, while using a shortbow for yourself in a safespot, like so many guides recommend? Calcs for the cannonball cost are above. In a singlezone, we get: 23.8 range XP for 406.5 GP, making for: 227.7/23.8 = 9.57 GP\Range XP, vs. 3.67 GP for Range XP with Avansies, loss of 5.9 GP per XP. The 5.9 GP\XP cost is going towards slayer, earning us half the range XP, or 11.8 GP\slayer XP. 11.8 GP\XP X 13,034,000 XP = 153.8M GP\99 slayer - almost 1.5x our calculated cost of 99 slayer, in terms of time lost - proving cannon anything but worthwhile. As for you saying that we have been using 400k per hour. That was your number. I personally value my time as over 1mil per hour (I love Runecrafting : ). No-one says we have to use 400k per hour. I was just stating that for a cannon to be worth it (if you value Range experience at 0), you would have to make over 421k. Spiritual Mages can make up to 450k per hour, and you also gain experience. So technically if you value melee experience than your value of time is over 450k. You do realize that if we add an alternate money maker with a higher rate, it will DRASTICALLY increase MY comparison numbers at zombies\avansies, making it FAR worse for slayer? I knew if I use GWD @ 1m an hour, it would result in many angry posters saying that not everyone could earn that, making my numbers invalid, so I used the much less 400k an hour from Avansies, a moneymaker that almost everyone uses. If you wanted to, I could run my calcs over again with 1m instead of 400k, but the numbers would look SIGNIFICANTLY worse for slayer. You've misunderstood how to calculate it. You simply quoted Zarfot's guide with no idea how he got that number. While I do agree with alot of things in his guides, I also think for myself. I understand that he got that number by assuming tasks go 20% faster with piety as compared to no prayer. There is also a factor of how fast your Prayer drains and what your level is (higher level = more restoration per dose of Prayer potion). With a +19 Prayer bonus with a level of say 75 Prayer (potions restore 27 prayer). In an hour it drains 1500 prayer points. That is 13.9, or 14 prayer potions per hour to compensate for that. Going 20% faster you save 8.33 minutes each hour. At a cost of 7,552 (current mid), you spend 105,728 to save 8.33 minutes, that is 761,241 per hour. It depends on many factors, one of which is how much faster it lets you do tasks. If on Skeletal Wyverns you go more than 20% faster than with no prayer, then the value of 761k drops. If it speeds up by less than 20%, the value increases. Now i'm not entirely sure what the other person was using, but when I did a task of 77 of them, I mentioned I was killing faster than someone else there (also on slayer). I was killing up to 4 in the time he took for one, and he was about 120 combat. Even if I only killed on average 1.5 for his 1 (though it was really alot higher), that is about 50% faster. So yes, piety for certain tasks if definately worth it in my opinion. To make it worth 400k, your going to have to have it speed up your kills by 38% - not likely, considering that vs. superhuman strength, it increases your attack by 10% (20% / 2; equipment bonus vs. levels), and your actual hits by 11.5% (23 / 2; equipment bonus vs. levels), for a MAXIMUM speedup of 20%; nowhere close to that 40%, and that's for continuous combat! Plus, that's simply to make it break even, or be no better or worse then using no prayer at all! Your objective 'i killed monsters 4 times as fast as the level 120 near me' is slightly less then worthless. When have I said 343? If you got all your charms from doing say 0-99 Slayer (Zarfot did 13.8m experience which is over 0-99, however that got him to 99 Summoning) or even from higher at 73/80-99, you would end up with Summoning in the 90s. If Zarfot did 13.8m Slayer xp and 13m Summoning, that means his average ratio was 1:0.94. Even dropping it to 1:0.9, to get to 96 Summoning from 52 requires you get 10.5m Slayer experience. 80-99 Slayer will get that much and a little more. So what does that mean? With 96 Summoning requiring 26k crimsons, it average to just over 356 per crimson. All that working out just showed that you don't have to start at 0 Slayer to get to 96 Summoning. You stated 96 summoning, which would make 'each crimson' worth 'roughly 343 XP'. And my point was that you would hit 99 slayer before 99 sumomning, presumably meaning that you would use another, more efficient training method for collecting charms - so you would never reach as high of a summoning level with slayer charms, and your XP per charm would be lower due to having to use fewer high level pouches. But if it makes you happy, I switched my 343 XP to 356 - resulting in a 500 XP\hour increase for Greater Demons, one of the most charm-heave tasks. Talk about your moot points. :roll: Hopefully I can do some Gargoyle testing this evening - I've been having some connectivity issues, and I can't test with laggy internet :wall: I should have time for at least 1 more task tonight, though.

You do realize that rangers, for their level, can dish out more damage per minute then ANY other combat style? I used to have an FTP range pure at 70 range; I could kill mages and destroy ANY pure meleer. With addy arrows, I could generally hit faster then they could eat. I got quite a few KOs simply by hitting several 12s in a row. Rune arrows are very good, even in members - on low level monsters, they are much faster XP then a crossbow. For quite a few situations, they are the best - they certainly shouldn't be made FTP.

Care to elaborate? I'm guessing this is an attempt at trolling :?

I don't blame you, the posts on here tend to be quite gargantuan. I've typed over 80 pages and around 50,000 words on here myself. :? You have a decnt point - if you want to train slayer, you should do it before you max out. But there's only 2 reasons to train it at 99 melees: #1, total levels #2, fun Total levels? For most players, they would stop in the mid 70s. I could train other skills that are currently in the 60s cheaper and faster then slayer, despite being almost 99 melees. Unless you find it fun, there's no reason to train it higher.

But that was only one task you have tested so far : . Those were the only tasks where he used Black Mask/Slayer Helm, so those were the ones able to get a comparison. You would have test every other task yourself to be able to find the difference due to the Slayer Helm. I don't need to verify the difference, I just have to make sure his 'adjusted' numbers line up with mine. Which they have, at least for greater demons. More to come later... It wasn't intended as an argument. The equipment as shown, wasn't worse, and the method is for a different monster so there will be differences. I had a guess at the reason why the prayer wasn't making you get more experience also. Maybe it is only due to using piety that you hit so well on the Monkies. Without the boost to attack you wouldn't hit as often, nor as high due to the strength increase.It certainly wasn't better, and the only disadvantage is that I'm attacking constantly, whereas you sometimes have to pick up drops (which can delay kills), eat, or run between monsters. I'm not comparing our methods. I'm saying, if I'm doing everything better, how come your still getting better XP? You should be getting SIGNIFICANTLY lower, especially with piety - at least a 10% difference. But instead your getting 5-7% better then me. Something's not adding up. I just went through my vid of Dust Devils and I checked to see how often I hit. Now that I see the numbers even I am amazed at how high the rate is. There was 107 hits with Whip, 99 of them hit. That is a 92.5% hit rate with 7.5% chance of hitting a 0. That is without piety and with a Slayer Helm, so I think it is fair to say they do have low Defence. I remember when I was testing prayer drain (superhuman strength one) at Zombie Monkies with a Whip (yes I was also super setted), that I hit alot more 0s zompared to Dust Devils. Then you should have tested piety, because that's what I'm using for comparison, and although I haven't done any hit spread tests, it's right up there with Dust Devils. So i'll break it up. You keep saying you are in continous combat. At Dust Devils it is easy enough to make sure you are always attacking without delaying Whip hits, so that part is the same. Equipment is harder to say which is better, they are either equal, or mine was better. An extra 5% to Strength will not make up a loss of about 20 in strength bonus. Similar for the Attack also. The prayer has a difference yes. Even with piety you are more than likely missing more often than at Dust Devils. However, if you combine the piety with the extra strength bonus from the Salve, that is an extra 18% to Strength level. That is about an extra 17 Strength levels, which is about equal to the 20 or so extra strength bonus I have at Dust Devils. Yup, so our equipment is roughly the same. But you can't say that your NEVER missing a SINGLE whip hit at dust devils - but I can make that claim at zombies. True, but the difference is minimal. One person at the far side could also slow down the experience, so it doesn't really change. There is more than enough spawns for up to 3 people (depending on levels) to kill on the close side without a significant loss in speed. No, there isn't. You have to run quite a bit more with one person; it's far better to go to the far side. But mabye I shouldn't listen to you, as you seem to be getting around 50% more crimsons then me with slayer helm vs. void, superhuman strength vs. piety. Oh, and both me and Inushkant have done a LOT of tests - I've done 20-30, Inushkant got 90 slayer on them, averaging 95 crimsons; I averaged 98, 105 with void. Vs. your 144-150 with superhuman strength. :| Actually, if you hit, it is likely do the Attack bonus doing something. It gives you an increased chance to hit. Regardless of whether you hit or not, every time you try to hit the Attack bonus is in effect and is working 100% of the time. However, with the Strength bonus, the only time it isn't in effect is if you miss. So the Strength bonus is having an effect equal to percentage of how often you hit. That's what I'm saying - If you would have hit a zzero but hit instead, your attack bonus helped. But that only happens 15% of the time you miss. Look at how often you were talking about hitting dust devils - extra attack would reduce your zeros by 15 (well, 7.5%), but for that other 92.5% of the time when you would have hit anyway, your attack bonus isn't doing anything. You missed what I was trying to show. I could have added in the Range experience, but it doesn't matter. What I was simply trying to show was that a cannon is worth using, not that it is the most efficient way to train. Chinchompas are more than likely the most efficient way to train, but that doesn't make the cannon any less good to use. It is about 25k Range experience per 1k cannonballs, so it would have been about 27.6k range experience. The point was, if you make over 420k an hour, a cannon is worth using for that task (I did nothing to prove the opposite). An hour at Spiritual Mages or Aviansies will make about that also. And I pointed our that your doing it the wrong way - your ignoring the range XP that it makes. But you also proved that cannon ISN'T worth using, because we're using 400k per hour instead of 421k. So using a cannon would make our numbers go down slightly. What is the difference in testing other tasks with superhuman strength and Mithril Dragons and Skeletal Wyverns with piety. To compare the experience? We already know the experience is alot less due to their high defence. You don't need to test them with both prayers, just piety for those 2. The '800k threshold' comes from how much faster it lets you do the task. Zarfot estimated 20% faster I think. Although depending on the monster itself, it has cause to fluctuate. Exactly. You seem to be terribly confused over the whole 'threshold' and 'efficiency calculations'. That means, if you have a method of making 800k per hour, the extra time you save using piety will take exactly hat long to make up the cost. If you make LESS then 800k, the extra time to earn the money will take MORE time then will be saved using piety. We make half that, so piety will make all of our numbers go down - bad news for slayer XP. You should also change the crimsons then ;) . As your tests show, the ratio of Summoning:Slayer experience is about 0.94:1 on Greaters. So at that rate it is of course getting into the high 90s for Summoning, therby also increasing the average experience per crimson. The same could also be done for green and blue, but i've not bothered to work those out. The higher your Summoning level also, the closer the ratio gets to being 1:1 due to increased experience from the charms. Why? 325 XP on crimsons works quite nicely - you factored from 52 summoning and zero slayer to get 343; I'm saying it should be the opposite. For what its worth, I changed the 325.6 to343 as a test - it made my XP per hour from crimsons at greater demons (one of the best droppers, mind you), go up around 700 xp per hour. I think 325.6 is a nice number, thank you very much. Blues are quite good where they are.

Ok, results for my 2nd round of Greater Demons! Equipment switched from Dharok's platebody to Proslyte Platebody. I'm shocked to see that my XP values are within 1.5k of each other. Quite surprising, I was expecting larger variance - but I'll have to do more tasks to make sure. All values are taken straight from screenshots; no editing of numbers (XP before task standing in shilo, XP after task with 'task complete' message plainly visible, screenshot of unicorn being summoned upon arrival of greater demons, screenshots of unicorn dying (if need be), and another one being re summoned immediately, screenshot of the unicorn timer with the 'task finished' message plainly visible, etc etc etc...) (Note: I have split off my 'equipment' category into its own spreadsheet page; link to the latest version is included) Without further ado, the link to the latest Greater Demon 2 results: http://www.file()factory.com/file/45d4d1/n/Greater_Demons2_pdf (Take the () out, Tip.IT doesn't like file sharing sites) And the (new) equipment page: http://www.file()factory.com/file/055ce5/n/Equipment_pdf (Take the () out, Tip.IT doesn't like file sharing sites) More to follow, but I can only manage about 1 a day - I don't have a lot of time, and I like to do other things (Such as GE Merching and slayer tasks without the pressure and constant attention required with testing), plus reviewing screenshots and putting\verifying everything with the spreadsheets takes time. My goal is to eventually have a set of reliable numbers for the drops, charms, and XP rates of all of Duradel's monsters, if only for the sake of an argument in this thread :lol:

I checked mine and swapped out the cannon ones for melee. I got to 52.9k exprience per hour (practically the same). But it is hard to say how much to "adjust" it by for Slayer. An example of how much the Slayer Helm speeds up a task from Qeltar is Abyssal Demons. He got 91 kills without and 112 without per hour. That is a 23% increase with just the addition of the Slayer Helm and no prayer. On Fire Giants he got 143 without and 155 with, that is a 8.4% increase. Gargoyles is 129 without and 137 with, a 6.2% increase. Hellhounds is 126 without and 143 with, a 13.5% increase. Kalphites is 162 without and 184 with, a 13.6% increase. Nechryaels is 122 without and 140 with, a 14.8% increase. Those were the only ones he had a est for with a Black Mask/Slayer Helm. Add prayer to that and it will get higher still. Possibly, but that could also be showing the variable XP from tasks - sometimes the highs\lows of his tasks were as much as 10% apart; at least there we have 23 numbers to average out, instead of 6. Also, I'm getting quite close to his rates prorated by my figures with my testing, and my 2nd task numbers are quite close to my first in terms of XP - see my post on this in a few minutes. Most likely a better Whip : . I've not lied about this or exaggerated so I really don't know what causes the rates to be like this. All I know is that is what I get, as for how.... can't really say. That's kind of a lame argument - 'somehow I'm using worse methods, equipments, and prayers then you, yet I'm getting quite a bit more xp'. It proves what I'm saying about possible exaggeration\the dangers of scaling up 18 kills vs. several dozen hours of Zombies. With Lunar, I don't take the runes with me on the task. Depending on the task I take either a House Tablet or a Glory as my tele. Either way I end up at Edgeville, once there I withdraw the runes and cast NPC Contact. Also, I personally don't bother running to the far side for Waterfiends, unless the closer ones has to many people. However, in my experience, i've only ever had to go to the far side once. Even one person at the closer side can slow down your XP somewhat; I always use the far side. Actually, if you hit 50% of the time, you are still using the strength and attack bonus both 100% of the time. If you hit, your Strength level is going to 15% higher, not 7.5%. The 15% to Attack is in constant effect and you have a 15% higher attack not 7.5%. If you miss, your strength bonus is doing nothing. If you hit, your attack bonus is doing nothing. So on average, it's a 7.5% split either way on a 50% hit rate. If it sends me of course i'll find my way back to path nearly all the time. If I can't, I just tele out and start again : . You could have used the home tele also. You 'break even' point was never gained by comparing the cannon to anything. Simply being that if you make 300k or less per hour, you can't regain what you lost in the additional time saved by using a cannon on Slayer. Anything over that and you can. So what you get with chinchompas has no affect on this. I'll give an example from Qeltar's rates of Aberrant Spectres. He got 182 kills without a cannon, and 390 with per hour. The usage of a cannon increased his rate by 114.3%. So on average, each task of Aberrant Spectres is completed in 46.7% of the time as without. So say you had a task of 182 of them, with no cannon it would take 60 minutes, with the cannon it would take 28 minutes. In that time he used up 1,103 cannonballs (46.7% of 2364, which is the amount used per hour). So he spent an additional 209,570 (at 190 each per cannonball, the mid price at the moment), to save 32 minutes. Assume the usage of a cannon uses up 2 minutes of his time during the task. So he has 30 minutes left to re-gain the lost money, which in this case is 419,140 per hour. If you can make over that amount, a cannon is worth using at Aberrant Spectres. As you can see, it has nothing to do with other methods of training range. There are a few tasks relating to that, but your not factoring in Range XP. Oh, and since our amount is 400k, you just handily proved why a cannon is not worth it. Not sure if that's what you were trying to do... :| I said that I used superhuman strength as a minimum. Not that I always use it. Well, I don't plan on testing each task with every prayer, so we have to pick one, and according to Zarfot, the threshold for Piety is around 800k (I'm too lazy to do the calcs myself and then argue for 8 rounds about the numbers I used). Why can't it be counted? Earlier on I was showing rates from Slayer with only superhuman strength compared to the Zombie Monkies piety. That was to show that even not using the best prayer, the rates are still high and rival the Monkies. The point is, there is some tasks I would never do without piety, otherwise they just aren't worth the extra time. Overall, say it is based on 52 to 96 Summoning, that requires 26,814 crimson charms. That means the average experience per crimson is 356.6 (you're not going to make Granite Lobsters all the way : ). With the gold charms, the Raw Bird Meat costs 69 mid price and it requires 12 Spirit Shards (worth 300). So it costs 369 for 68.4 experience, which is 5.4gp per experience. With Barker Toads you use 10 Spirit Shards (250) and Swamp Toads (283 each). You spend 533 for 86 experience, which is 6.2gp per experience. Barely any extra. However, overall you will need to collect more gold charms to get the same amount of experience as with Barker Toads. You need 32.5% more charms per hour for the same amount of experience. Say you get 132 gold charms in an hour. A person making Barker Toads gets to 100 and stops, it took him 45.5 minutes to get that many. It costs him an additional 4,592 gp for the seconds, and he has 14.5 minutes spare to regain this. So if you can make over 19k gp/h ( :lol: ) Barker Toads are more efficient. So yes, I believe the Barker Toads are worth it, and i've never had much trouble buying the Swamp Toads. Mmm... I didn't realize swamp toads dropped so much, they used to be 400-600 GP and almost impossible to buy :shock: I changed my numbers to Barker Toads - it hardly affected anything, increasing my crimson by .5-.7 per hour for Greater Demonos. I agree with the green one. With the Blue, not sure what number to use. Most people save them up till later for more experience, some use them early. I just based it on the level 79 Titans which are just short of 700, so 700 to be even. Mine are 696, which I think is a good representation. Quite a few people who only train summoning with slayer started off with a high slayer\1 summoning when slayer first came out (at this time, I don't believe anyone's gotten 0-99 slayer since it came out), meaning that they don't get as much XP and have to use their charms at a lower level.

It's an underpowered weapon with an overpowered spec. You can combo 122 damage in 1 shot with it (26 ice blitz + 48-48 specs), higher then any player's hitpoints, turning BH into a luck game with a bunch of D bowers at the exit waiting for you to end a fight with low HP. It's fun, though; I've gotten 45 specs with 95 range, and hit over 80 damage in 1 combo. Except that it isn't useful for any form of training.

Thanks for the link. The calculations themselves are correct. Some of the numbers you used were an average of what weltar got in 2 different methods, which is good, except for one task. For Spiritual mages you used 155 as an average, but in one of those tests he didn't use a pure set/zammy brew+super strength. So only the higher one (with zammy brew+super strength) should have been used. With the Bloodvelds, you got your numbers from Bloodvelds (sounds odd doesn't it? :? ). I got mine from Mutated Bloodvelds, the rate for those was alot higher. The Waterfiends number comes from Qeltar, but have said yourself that you get just short of 100 (actual) crimsons per hour, which is closer to about 120 kills. With the Warped Terrorbirds, I think it was just a typo, not on purpose. You used an average of 61, when the average was 91. Also I didn't use Black Dragons, because he didn't have the method I use (which is alot faster and more efficient). Baby Black Dragons are the best way to do that task in my opinion and it gets a higher experience rate also. My waterfiend rate is considerably higher due to piety and void. Other numbers duely noted and corrected; that drove up my overall rate to 51.8k, 59.6k adjusted. Where are you getting your 61k? :shock: So while there is nothing wrong with table itself, some of the numbers need to be fixed is all. I'm don't know how to pinpoint why Dust Devils are better experience. All I know is that they give great experience, so that makes them a task I always do. I'm using it as a point to illistruate that you are either exadurating, lying, or have a better whip then I do :lol: I'm in more combat more of the time, hitting more often, with as-good or better equipment, better stats, and much better prayers - and I'm still getting less XP then you. Once you grab the gear and potions, you tele, use the necklace on the bank deposit box and run to the whirlpool. You don't even have to bank if you don't want, and you could use it as your teleport in replace of a tab.Bad idea - a 1 click tele has saved my hide before at waterfiends\mith drags, and slayer gloves set up new tasks quite nicely (Lunar mage, however, can help with that - but it's a big invo space waster to have runes for any tele + spellbook swap + contact other. Waterfiends do take a bit of time to get to, too, if you use the (better) spot on the far side of the dungeon. That might even be the case. But if their Defence is high, a slight increase in attack will not have the biggest affect. Like at Mithril Dragons, the extra 15% from the Helm doesn't get you hitting much more often. If anything you want something in the middle of the Defence range. That way the increase in hitting is noticeable, and with the Helm you hit a decent amount higher. Now that I think about it, the defence level doesn't make a difference. It's still 15% overall (If you hit 100% of the time, your only using +15% strength. If you hit 50% of the time, your using your strenght bonus half the time and your attack bonus half the time), so half of that would be 7.5%; the effect of the slayer mask. Assuming 1 hour assignments, that's 4.5 minutes per assignment to make training slayer worth it. 1.3 is a bit much, but it has happened to me, but not that often. It has even randomly taken me to the next portal so I even get to the monster quicker sometimes : . I entered the west portal in the mummy room. Instead of taking me to the south-west portal in the zamorak monk room, it took me to the north-east one, which is the portal I would have used next. So I didn't have to run across the whole room :lol: . There also seems to be a limit to how far away they can send you. So you won't end up that far of course usually. That is true, but it annoys me a lot; I've forgotten a tele and wandered around lost for 20 minutes, almost dying from lack of food and prayer with ~15m in gear, because half the portals sent me somewhere else. The cannon wasn't being compared to chinchompas though. It was simply about how much you make per hour and the time lost being 2.5 minutes for 1,000 cannonballs. So the cost of training with chinchompas is irrelevant as it only comes down to whether the cannon is going to save you time and money or not. If you can make over 300k per hour, it saves time. If not, don't use a cannon. -.- Your really not getting this. The 'break even' point is calculated using the best manor of training slayer\range vs. the cannon. Technically i'm not changing prayers. I have always used piety on Skeletal Wyverns. If you get a task of these, try with piety and with superhuman strength, there is a huge difference. There was another person there killing them when I got there, I think he was around 120 or so. I was killing about 2-3 on average in the time it ook for him to kill 1. Some times I even got up to 4 kills before he managed it (I got lucky with a couple DDS specials, 29+7 then 37+36 :thumbsup: ). You stated that you always used superhuman strength; that is what I am testing. I can't go adjusting for every task... As I said, i've always used piety on this task. I also said that I use superhuman strength as a minimum, not that I use it on every task. Sometimes I may use ultimate strength or piety if I feel like it. I used piety on Nechryaels yesterday and was hitting up to 51 with Whip, a 129 there who was using a BGS kept going "omfg", was funny :lol: . Then you can't count your rates when you say your only using superhuman strength. I'm willing to test whatever, but we've got to picka prayer and stick with it. But yeah, piety is fun - I've managed some amazing specs with dd++ on a steel dragon :? Not what I meant. How much experience did you use for each gold, green, crimson and blue charm? You've said 10.2 gold is 2.1 crimsons, but what numbers did you use to get that? You got 13,574 Summoning experience from 42 crimsons, which is about 323 each. On the way to 96 Summoning from Slayer, the average experience is just over 350, so 350 for each is ideal. I'm using level 52 Spirit Terrorbirds for gold charms, at 68.4 xp each. Barker toad pouches are not worth it; the 2nds are very expensive and very hard to buy. I'm using the Fruit Bat, a level 69 summon giving 121.2 XP per pouch for green charms; it is the only one with a reasonable 2nd besides Unicorn Stallion, which I consider rather high leveld for the average player, and in fact, the point where most players stop there summoning *cough*. For crimson, I used the previously established level 74 Granite Lobster pouches, giving 325.6 XP each. 21 level quotes :shock: . Geez, and I thought these posts were getting long. Not necessarily long, just 'one sentence' *quote* 'one sentence' *quote* 'one sentence' *quote* and so forth. Lots of quotes, not many words.

That looks pretty sweet, with all those fire blasts. I wouldn't be happy if it happened to me, though...

The image doesn't show for me. If you can get it show i'll check it out. http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=graphqe2.jpg There's a direct link to it. With your side you multiplied the strength bonus(?) by 20% I think it was. The Salve Ammy(e) affects your level not the bonus, as does the Slayer Helm. What I wear gives a +124 attack bonus, +125 strength bonus as well as the bonus from the Helm. With Salve Ammy it is +105 strength bonus and +102 attack bonus with the bonus from the Ammy. There is still a big difference in that. Also with the prayer and you saying you rarely hit, I think the answer is obvious : . It is because of piety you rarely hit. It gives a +23% attack bonus, so you will be hitting more often. You would have to test using superhuman strength for an easier comparison, then you won't have to try and adjust for the extra bonuses. There are no extra bonuses. Anyway, strength level vs. bonus is generally considered a 50\50 split; it shouldn't make much difference either way. I'm saying piety (normally, when I'm relaxed training, I DO use superhuman strength, but get quite a bit lower XP; I haven't documented exactly how much), is still getting less XP then you; how could that possibly be? It depends how you get there. Karamja Gloves 3 is the fastest way and I think that takes about 30-40 seconds. Not entirely sure but it is under a minute. It also takes only 1 minute or less to get to Waterfiends after you tele. You should try altering your bank set out then, trust me, it will help alot. I'm not sure, 1 minute for waterfiends sounds rather suspicious - I always get close to 2 minutes, not including setup time. It's 46 seconds for a tele, if your fast. I did :lol: . Though I started with page 6 which was when i started posting. I only read my posts though, because if I did say that, it would be in mine. So really it didn't take that long : . But I could have said it, and you said yes or something along the lines of it. Not that it matters :lol: Ideally, you would have to actually test the difference in using Slayer Helm and prayer compared to without. There is no accurate way to say otherwise as it would affect different monsters by certain amounts. High Defence monsters won't have as big an increasecompared to say Dust Devils or Spiritual Mages. Actually, the opposite's probably true - high defence monsters where you only hit, on average, 50% of the time, would probably show the greatest difference, as the full advantage of both bonuses would come into play. Still, considering the time and low defence of almost every task, 15% is very generous. Cave Horrors used to be and so did Spiritual Warriors. Sumona still assigns them however. Chinning Nech's is more efficient at 1.5mil profit per hour I think it was :shock: . As for who provided them, i'd have to check again, but you could do that. It doesn't really matter, I guess, but it would be nice to know where he got them. As Zarfot mentioned a bit after this post, the little things add up . :oops: Have a couple proselyte sets then also, that way they stay in the same spot each time when you bank. I organise my inventory also, but with how I do, it is already organised as I withdraw. With the Chaos tunnels, there is only ever 2 entrances I use. The one in level 4 wildy west of the Zamorak Mage, and the one in 13 wildy north-east of the Zamorak mage. The north-east goes to cave bugs, one teleport away from them is the Baby Black Dragons. The other entrance takes you to Gargoyles. Take the north-west portal twice, and you'll be Zamorak Monks, the north-east portal from there and at Dust Devils. If you take the portal north of that you are at Black Demons. Take the west portal from there and you are in with Bronze Dragons (so be careful) and Earth Warriors. Take the North to level 88 Dagannoths (use range prayer), and then the east portal takes you to Nechryaels. So effectively all those tasks arealong the same path, only have to remember the one way. Also, if on Lunar, Suqahs are the fastest task to get to. Except 1/3rd the time your taking them, the portals misfire and you spend 5 minutes trying to find your way back. It's the one thing I hate about the chaos tunnels; happens to me almost every time with bork. :wall: Only inefficient at 300k or less per hour. With Aviansies it would be worth it though. What are you talking about? All we know is that with old chinchompa figures it was 300-500k for inefficiency, and probably considerably higher now. It is worth using prayer. I got a few Ranarr and three Rune Chain's from that task, which more than payed for what I used. I didn't bank either, but even with a familiar, that is still 80k experience which is very good. Well, all of our figures have been with superhuman strength, so unless your recording exactly what you earn\spend, (as I am in my spreadsheets), you can't go changing prayers when tracking XP. In this case, the task should really only be done with piety or not at all. The reason for it isn't just to hit higher, that extra Attack is vital to killing them at a decent speed. I also only used 11 (I think) Prayer potions for all 77. I included the bank trip I took during the task, and I don't time banking inbetween tasks (nor does Zarfot, so that still means I was close to his rate). See above; unless your recording everything you can't suddenly switch prayers to compare XP. You have been saying, all along, that ALL of this has been done with superhuman strength; that's what we're using for comparison. Good luck with that, will take a long time. Yup. I also had a task of 163 Spiritual Mages today (no boots :( ), according to the timer on my Geyser Titan it took 33 minutes. That extrapolates to 22.2k Slayer experience per hour. Don't use that Link! I got a virus! Just kidding, it's safe so i'll vouch for it According to that table, you got 59.2k of just melee xp/h, so see, even the slower tasks are faster than what you said originally \ . If you factor Hitpoints experience in you would get to an overall experience per hour of 108,342. Out of curiosity, what numbers did you use for working out the Summoning experience? Notice the table with my charm drops? :lol: With what Inuashakent said about the spam pyramids, my posts are usually long, but that is why I cut the quotes down all the time. Yup, I have a tendancy to simply change colors and move on. These aren't really big pyramids, though - I've seen 21 level quote trains (When the new php3 boards came out, they set a 3 depth limit on quotes. There was rioting in the streets.)

^ ^ Yeah, I have a tendency to do that. We could use you on Tip.it, Zarfot. Stay! Anyway, my results for greater demons are out! Every step has been screenshotted to be confirmed; these XP rates are EXACT. This is just the beginning; now that I have this as a template, I will be using it for every assignment hereafter. http://www.file()factory.com/file/ddbce1/n/Greater_Demons_pdf Take out the () from the link, Tip.it has a problem with file hosting sites. filefactory.com is a 'Warning: Possibly Dangerous Link!' site. Yes, I know it's a download. It's a PDF, at 8.08k. It's not going to hack your computer. Get over it. If someone other then me would post detailing how an 8 kilobyte PDF file isn't going to instantly trash your computer and send me your username and password, it would be appreciated. (For What It's Worth, I have nothing opposed to slayer - I think it's a fun skill, and I plan on training it more. I would, in fact, be happy to be proven wrong about the XP being worse. But I don't plan on being proved wrong ;) ) EDIT: Duradel hates me. Next task: 147 Greater Demons. I'll work on it tomorrow, I've already wasted too much time on rune-related stuff (6 page spreadsheets take a while to create...). At least it'll give me an opportunity to add to the validity of my tasks; I'm interested in how close my 2nd results are.

I didn't even know you ever browsed on Tip.it. Welcome to the forums :thumbsup: This is going to make the discussion much more interesting. Perhaps you can shed some light on why my and Qeltar's rates are so different from yours. Hopefully I'll be able to post my greater demon rates in a few minutes.

I posted the exact number of kills per hour he can get, and the hitpoints of the monsters. Those would also have been the numbers you yourself would have used. So unless I somehow misplaced a decimal or something i've shown what he got, and it was just short of 60k (without the three cannon ones). So please go back to that sort of table thing I posted and let me know if there was an error. If there isn't, then it is indeed just short of 60k. First, a confession - when I first did my chart, whenever he had two results for whip + defender, I used the lower one. Skewing results slightly, I admit :oops: . Anyway, I've got a better idea; how about you point out what is wrong with my chart? This one includes the 3 monsters you sent me, (all of them except Scarabytes), and this time I averaged the values of whip + defender whenever there was more then one result. Let me know what you find. Bandos > Proselyte Fire Cape > Trimmed Cape Defender > Unholy Book Slayer Helm+Fury = Salve Ammy(e)+Helm of Neitiznot I think I have the better equipment at the moment : . We went through this before, 1 Attack level and 4 Strength isn't that much better (You don't use Defence at Monkies). Maybe the reason they are better experience is simply because they are a better monster to train on. They don't hit that often, and with the Slayer Helmet their low Defence is very noticeable. Bandos = +6 strengthl fire cape = +4 strength; Fury = +8 strength, +10 attack. On my side: (By the way, defender resulted in 4k more XP per hour for me, so I'll be using that for comparison) Nezinot helm = +4 strength; total strength bonus = +105. X 20% = 122, vs 120 strength bonus (both without defender; to be added later). So we have +2 higher strength bonus at monkies, plus a +9 higher slash bonus. There goes the equipment argument. +4 strength would equivate out to +2% more XP; roughly 2k in our experiment. Lack of rune defender results in 4k more XP, so 2k more total when balancing for the strength bonus, or roughly 101k for monkies vs. 105k for dust devils. Like I said, zombie monkies have very, very low defence also; I rarely hit zeros, so that should have a very small, if no effect at all, on experience. Anyhow, now that everything except defence has been confirmed better for me, I'd like to point out how you failed to mention prayer. Your +10% strength vs. my +23% strength and +20% attack - a nice 13% strength and 20% attack bonus over you; quite significant. Now figure in that I never have to eat, and that I'm in continuous combat - no time wasted, EVER, for picking up drops\messing with BOBs\running between monsters. So how, again, are you getting better XP then me? It doesn't take 6 minutes to get to Waterfiends. Try putting all of your Slayer equipment in the one tab in your bank. Also try to line certain items up that go together. Also have more than one of each item where possible to keeps its place in the bank. I personally have 2 Whips, 2 Pairs of Dragon Boots, 2 "barrows" gloves, multiple Defenders, multiple Fire Capes, a few DDS' and many other items on the top row of that tab. In nearly every task I use that equipment and is very easy to get out. Things like Karils, Bandos, Fury, Slayer Helm, DFS, are all at the bottom of the tab, and also are not difficult to find and get out. Not to get there; to get an assignment and bank in shilo (1.5 minutes), to get the equipment and invo set up (~1 minute), tele and deposit games necklace + run to waterfiends (2 minutes); we're already up to 4.5 minutes, and randoms, mistakes (I make plenty of those :wall: ) and invo\outfit setup (Mine takes closer to 3-4 minutes) can also stretch it out. I found where I mentioned BOBs, this was what I has said: [hide=Quote] [/hide] As you see, I mentioned they could be used, but never that I use them. Nor did I say that between your inventory and a BOB you could pick up all the drops. I checked through the thread, I never even mentioned BOBs again after that. So umm... what problem? Nothing, just saying that you said that 'you have plenty of space with a BOB, indicating you used one. Let the point drop, already. Oh, and I kind of doubt you searched through the 100+ pages of text on the 12 pages of replys on this page, looking for the mention of BOBs. If so, I apologize, and hats off to you :ohnoes: In some cases on Qeltar's numbers the difference in using the Slayer Helmet to without was almost a 15% increase in speed. So unless it takes 9 minutes to bank (when on average it is 1/3 of that), I think that Slayer Helmet bonuses make up for the banking. Some cases? More like 1, vs. 3 in support of 8-10%. 10% is quite a safe number - making the banking time 5 minutes (as explained above), would make up for it. Oh, and +10% strength and +15% strength together are a 12.5% boost; the extra attack boost from slayer would probably make up that last 2.5% for a total of 15% advantage - if you are in constant combat. Even a 5 minute between-task delay would drop that number 10%; yet I factor the FULL 15% into Qeltar's numbers. Quite an advantage; the real number is probably closer to 7%. You've got to be kidding.... he probably would? His guide on Runecrafting is quite extensive and his efficiency rate there is very high. You admit that following what he does you get within half a dozen seconds of his times. His Thieving guide is also extensive and details the high rates for Thugs, many people have replied back with similar results. There is even a guide about that training method on these forums (suspiciously close to Zarfots explanation also : ). He wrote mini-guides to how he trained each other skill to 99 in his thread that was in the Goals & Achievements forums. I even copied them all into a Word doc :lol: . He has videos detailing his experience rates in those skills. So now I ask you, if he can do all that for every other skill, without lying or exaggerating... why would he do it for Slayer? That makes no sense what so ever. Again I ask, what would he have to gain if he did? Try and follow his methods like his Runecrafting guide and you will notice a significant increase in your experience per hour. Also note that some of the guides for each task weren't even his. The Spiritual Mages and Warriors (Warriors from when Duradel still assigned them), Cave Horrors and chinning Nechryaels came from other players. So yes, those rates are achieveable by other people. Which other players? Cave horrors aren't on Duradel's list, last I checked, chinning Nechs isn't the most efficient way, spiritual warriors are also not on his list, and... that leave us with spirit mages. Out of curiosity, who exactly is it that provided the numbers for the mages? Refer to the first thing I quoted this post. Check the numbers in the table I provided. There were no mistakes. See table above, where I get 50k due to your new numbers and averaging Qeltar's. Sure (it wasn't Scabarites though :-# ). Here they are: Goraks Spiritual Mages Warped TerrorbirdsThank you. Duly noted and used in my new table. Actually, he didn't compare it to ayn other method of training Range. He determined if it was worth it because they hardly add any time, and that shooting approximately 1000 cannonballs uses up 2.5 mins (overall time to set up and refill). If you value time at only 500k an hour, it is equivalent to 57k Range and 28k Slayer experience per hour. If you value your time at 1mil per hour, then it is equivalent to 104k Range xp/h and 56k Slayer xp/h. Just because another way to train Range exists, doesn't have any impact on the efficiency of a cannon. Why? Because you are still going to average the same amount of experience per cannonball on average and they will still cost about the same. They will still only use a very little amount of time. Do you have any clue how efficiency is calculated? The cost of a cannon is weighed against the slayer XP and range XP it gives, based on how easily those skills can be trained. Grey chinchompas happens to be the most efficient form of ranging; therefore the advantage of a cannon relies almost exclusively on the price of chinchompas. Well that is because the average crimsons per hour hour isn't 27. Using Qeltars rates the drop rate was 39.6, or 40 crimsons per hour (equivalent to, not actually 40 crimsons). Keep in mind I stated the average was 55 (not 58) and you said it was 8. So 55-40 = 15, 40-8 = 32. Keep in mind my rate was based on slayer and facts, not made up. Qeltar was without Slayer and not training as efficiently as possible, so yes, the rate is higher still on Slayer. What do you mean, not training efficiently as possible? I thought we went though this with charms a long time ago, and I got 35 charms to your 39.6., 40 adjusted for slayer. Again, I may have to rethink my slayer adjustment forumla; it doesn't count banking time. I have the table for that too, if need be - it's in the same spreadsheet as XP. My 27 does appear to be off, though - That was due to not including your two monsters, and having a typo in my averaging formula that was including the '0 charm' results of 2 non-existent monsters :oops: Put simply, the Defender has +11 extra to the Attack bonus, so it is more accurate. The Defender also has +5 extra Strength bonus, so you can hit highee. How does it not average more experience per hour? Again as I said, it comes down to only the saving on prayer potions. I'll go back and test the rates once more with a HP Cape, Unholy Book, and using the SGS for specials. But even now I can see the usage of prayer potions exceeding 8 per hour. Go right ahead, and let me know your results. I also forgot to mention that I use holy wrench. Shouldn't really make a difference, though. So you were trying to use my methods, while on standard mage... I use Lunar. Ring of wealth wouldn't have affected experience, but it would have affected average profit per hour, whereas Ring of life is useless here. My inventory for these consists of House tabs (I have these on every task and I always withdraw 10, so they are alrways already in my inventory), a Holy Wrench (also already in my inventory), SGS (already in inven, I grab my Lunar Staff and Rope, 2000 cannonballs and the 3 cannon pieces. Depending on task number either 1 or 2 super sets, 1 superantipoison(+), around 3 prayer potions, I usually use a Unicorn here also since a combat won't help too much as the Kalphites die to quick. Finally 1-2 super energies and the rest food. All of those items for me come from 2 different tabs only. The gear you wear barely ever changes. I might have to switch to a Defender from a DFS, or Bandos from Karils. It really does come down to practice as well as an organised bank. Not really a whole lot to argue abut, but my gear changes quite a bit - including prayer gear, and banking all of my items + deciding which pots\food\special items to bring, withdrawing and organizing them, and actually getting to the monster (which, for quite a few monsters like greater demons\dust devils (I hate the chaos tunnels, FWIW), dragons, hellhounds, spiritual mages, suqahs, black demons, and DARK BEASTS, can take a while. In the 70k per hour, he was referring to melee XP. Why you are even trying to argue over this tiny point (my post saying what Inuashakent said) is beyond me. Couple posts ago he then said Zarfot wasn't exaggerating, so i'll just ignore this now : . He said he probably wasn't exaggerating, but I agree - we'll let it drop. I didn't ignore the rates, but if a task of 164 Kalphites takes you almost an hour, you are going very fast at all. Try using a cannon, it will significantly increase the speed of this task. You didn't come close to Zarfot's because you didn't use a cannon. Except that a cannon has been proven inefficient (see above), so using a cannon would actually decrease my XP due to the need to earn the money lost. Yesterday I had a task of 156 Black Demons. I got there and summoned my Geyser Titan, I was using superhuman strength and pure sets every 10 mins. My Titan ran out of time and disappeared so I summoned another straight away (I has swapped 1 prayer potion for a super restore as it restores summoning points). I finished the task with 66 minutes remaining on the 2nd one. Overall the task took 72 minutes and I got 24,492 Slayer experience. 72/60 = 1.2, 24,492/1.2 = 20,410 Slayer experience in one hour. That is over 80k experience. That's with a familiar (everything so far has been without; I find it more efficient to do black demons with a Unicorn so I don't have to pray, resulting in a 10-13k loss of XP), and that apparently doesn't include any sort of banking. I also had a task of 77 Skeletal Wyverns, when I got there I summoned my Unicorn, I also used piety throughout the task (trust me, this task is a great one for piety). I ran out of supplies and only had a few to go, so I quickly banked and came back. My Unicorn ran out of time, and I think it was 2 or 3 Whip hits after that I killed the Skeletal Wyvern, and task finished. Now these guys have 200 Hitpoints, but give 210 Slayer experience. Therefore I got 16,170 Slayer experience in 54 minutes, which is 17,967 Slayer experience per hour. I also got 61,600 melee experience in 54 minutes, which is 68,444 experience per hour. The 2nd slowest task (other than Mithril Dragons), that I haven't blocked was getting 68k experience per hour, with a bank trip during the task even. So yes, I do believe your Slayer rates are indeed quite low. Well, seeings that we are only comparing with superhuman strength (Piety is only worth it at 750k + earning rates, much higher then ours), I really don't see your results as being accurate, and obviously you didn't include banking. Also Note Zarfot gets 22k Slayer experience per hour at Black Demons (I was only 2k less) and he gets about 19k at Skeletal Wyverns, which includes one bank per task (I was only 1k less). So yes, his rates aren't impossible to achieve, you just have to be willing to follow his advice. See above. FWIW, I'm starting on my project of documenting my slayer tasks - I got Greater Demons this time, and took roughly 45 screenshots detailing every aspect of my outfit, inventory, XP, potions, chat settings, unicorn timers, slayer XP, and potions, all of which will be typed up with a detailed explanation of why and how I did them. Look for it in my next post; all of it will be going in an Excel table, the main deadlock will be the uploading of my pictures (Serious cropping is required when your running at 1920X1200, think 6mb screeenshots :wall:

I've 1 itemed before; when your bored, it can be fun with a remote chance of a decent drop. You won't get any decent drops off 1 itemers; they are losing nothing. But with a blitz + dd++ combo, I find it fairly easy to KO players, at very little risk.

When I mentioned Zarfot's guides, those were for the other skills he didn't have 99 in on his way to 2376 total. I mentioned that for a reason, and i'll say why furthur on in the post. People are getting my rates, regardless of what you think. Please also explain how yours are generally accepted (when i've yet to see someone agree that 45k is the maximum average) at 45k per hour when even Qeltar gets up to 60k without Slayer. He also got that without stat enhancing prayer. So no, yours aren't actually generally accepted. Wrong. Qeltar gets 48k without slayer - not bad, but he's 99 in every mleee stat, paying close attention. As I showed earlier, my numbers are actually quite a bit lower this his, with REAL testing. You very rarely miss... do you see how vague that is. With Slayer Helmet on Dust Devils don't you also "very rarely miss"? No-one other than those who work at Jagex can actually say with 100% certaining which has the higher/lower defence. Yup. Which brings us back to our original argument: How, when I have better stats, equipment, pots, more actual combat time, and MUCH better prayers, are you getting so much more XP then me/ :roll: It isn't impossible. Mine wasn't counting banking or setting up and was also effectively continous combat. Just because it is higher than what you got doesn't make it impossible. That helps explain a little bit of your numbers. Slayer requires banking and getting tasks, which knocks the XP down 8-10% (6 minutes per 54 minute task is 10%) Actually you'll find you verified nothing. Read through and then tell me where it says I use them : . While this has no impact on what we are talking about, I don't like people saying I have said or done things when I haven't (which you continously do). I said that they can be used, not that I use them. Actually, you did. You were talking about how you had plenty of space with a BOB, then later asked me where you had said you were using a BOB. I quoted that, and you responded with 'you have plenty of space with a BOB'. See the problem? 22 different monsters means 22 hours, not 32. It doesn't even out over all monsters if he has each rate for each monster being inaccurate (inaccurate+inaccurate =/= accurate : ). Qeltar has tested efficiently each monster while on Slayer? I didn't know he updated his database between when I last posted and now. Nope, but he (and I'm starting to, starting with Kalphties), that slayer doesn't make a huge difference - the effect of the helm is almost balanced out by the extra time. The videos from Zarfot I mentioned above comes to this point here. While some people may enjoy lying, this isn't one of those cases. On his way to 99 in every skill he wrote mini guides to how he trained, he has comprehensive guides on 3 of those skills, he even has some videos showing how he did train. Now after all that effort, all his numbers in every other guide non-exaggerated, would he lie about Slayer? http://www.youtube.com/tofraz That is his channel. While he doesn't have a video detailing his Slayer rates, it is just there to give a general idea of how he does the task. Yes, he probably would. Who's to prove him wrong? Just because none of us get anywhere close (besides your 18 dust devils), means he can say he's more efficient. I can't say that for sure; mabye he is just hyper efficient. There is no reason to take them out. However I did, and guess what? I still got just over 14k Slayer xp per hour, which is 56k melee experience. Isn't it odd how based on the same numbers, the numbers are different... couldn't possibly be you being biased though and purposely dropping the rates though. I'd like to say the exact same thing about you; my numbers are still throwing out 48k. Those 3 tasks which "he didn't show"... he did show. They were just in a different section that was all, I hasn't realsied that at first, but after I found them I added them in. Using a cannon doesn't matter. All that shows is that overall, you'll get more experience per hour with a cannon than without. Give me a link to where the 3 tasks he didn't show (Goraks, Scabarites, and Warped Terrorbirds) are. Err... what? You keep forgetting that using a cannon is effectively no time lost. It is addition to what you get by meleeing. The point of me mentioning the Aviansies is that if you need more than 300k profit per hour for the cannon to be worth it, by using Aviansies as your money maker, it is worth using. It has nothing to do without chinchompas, so i've no idea why you mentioned them. I never said 58 crimsons per hour. Pray tell how 8 rather than '58' is closer to 55. I must be bad at maths cause I can't see how 8 is closer. My point was that Zarfot was comparing the cannons XP to the best range XP available to determine if it was worth it - range has gotten easier to train with grey chinchompas being discovered\dropping, making a cannon less efficient. He also never said anything about the rates between 300-500k - he simply said that it was worth it a 500k, not at 300k, leaving us to assume that 300k was not the exact threshold. Thusly the bonus of a cannon, if anything (minus the earning time), would be either useless or slightly detrimental to slayer, especially at kalphites - I was in a full world, and killing most of them nearly as fast as they respawned. [hide=To read or not to read]As for the charms, 58-27 = 31, 27-8 = 19. Not that it matters, we're sounding more and more like squabbling children arguing over insignificant things with every post :wall: Starting to remind me of the presidential debate... :-#[/hide] The only difference in equipment was I used a Fire Cape compared to the Hipoints Cape, I used a Rune Defender and a DDS for specials not the SGS. You'll also find the Zamorak Book isn't best. Compared to the Defender, you are less accurate and hit lower. That reduces your experience rate in order to save a bit on prayer. Also with the Cape, based on attack bonuses, I have a higher chance to hit (if only slightly), can hit higher but at a loss of 2 prayer bonus. However with the SGS instead the Prayer used would indeed by less but not by alot. If I used 3.25 prayer pots in 10 minutes 10 seconds, that equates to 19.25 prayer potions per hour. So unless over the course of an hour the SGS saves you 11.25 prayer potions you are more than likely lying again. What is even more disturbing is you even saying you use 8 per hour. 8*7,534 = 60,272 gp for just the Prayer potions, the pure sets adds about 7.4k per hour Geyser Titan's last 69 minutes and cost 3,392 each so that adds another 3k per hour. That is over 70k loss per hour yet you said it was only 40k. At least we finally got you to admit you were lying about one of the rates (even though the loss is still greater than that from what i've seen). How many hours have you tested the rune defender? I spent 2 hours with defender vs. 1 hour with zammy book, and found the prayer potion savings quite worth it. HP vs. fire cape may be worth it; I'm just point out what I used. Geyser titan was not figured into cost; however, it probably should be, as you mentioned. Dragonfire Shield and a Defender? Ok thats odd. Torags for tanking? and yet you also brought a Unicorn. A Unicorn provides more than enough healing even with Bandos armour. Ring of Life is useless, should at least use a Ring of Wealth. 6.5 minutes on average. You said you got them 2 in a row, you would already have on the right equipment, and the potions/food don't take long to get out. Tele to Duradel, I though you said you use NPC Contact (it is the most efficient way to train Slayer). It is also easier to use the BIQ fairy ring to get there. You also didn't use a cannon, you would have found it overal far more efficient to use it than to not. I have been trying to use your methods, so I was on standard mage. Ring of wealth would have affected drops, not XP. Yes, I spent that long on tasks; it took a significant amount of time to completely switch armors and setup invos\pots. It actually took me considerably longer, but I should do it in 6-7 minutes with practice. I was unaware of fairy rings; those could decrease the time by about a minute, and improve the XP rates by 900 an hour or so. I'm not saying he's exaggerating, but it is definetely at LEAST very hard to achieve his rates. I even said he's not exaggerating. Seriously, he calls "distractions" 1% every hour, which translates into 30 seconds/hour. Seriously, when I'm "distracted" I lose... 20 minutes per hour? :lol: (Obviously most people don't get distracted this much. ;) ) When I posted that I was responding to compfreak847. Compfreak847 insisted that Zarfot was either lying or exaggerating to make himself appear better. Compfreak847 even said that you were saying Zarfot was exaggerating, yet your reply says that you don't. So again compfreak847 made another mistake to further try and back up his point. This at least shows proof that compfreak847 was yet again wrong. In the 70k per hour, he was referring to melee XP. Why you are even trying to argue over this tiny point (my post saying what Inuashakent said) is beyond me. As for the rates, don't worry. Like I did with kalphites, my rates which you studiously ignored, I will be testing various slayer tasks. I WILL be using testing methods, taking screenshots of EVERY step to prove it. Right now I'm on steel dragons (Not counted, assumed to be black listed :| ), and before I did gargoyles (Which cannot be counted; I was talking to friends, which slowed my XP rate and caused me to get much lower XP then I believe I could have had I been paying 100% attention), so I will start with my next task, whatever it may be. I will be factoring out any tasks during which something happened to skew the results, both good or bad (Randoms, talking to friends etc.), and hopefully I will be able to obtain some accurate numbers. I must say, however, that my kalphite results lined up nicely with Qeltar's, although came nowhere close to Zarfot's.

Interesting side note: I just started doing slayer for some tests, and I happened to get 2 tasks of Kalphites in a row, both tasks of 164. I went with the standard equipment, slayer helm, dfs + defender, torags for tanking, d boots, ring of life, barrows gloves, HP cape. I prayed +10% strength. I only competed with 2 people in both tasks; the first one hopped after ~20 seconds, the second one after about a minute. Both tests were in world 144, with the fastest possible respawn time. I super setted once every 10 minutes, using unicorn to heal (no combat slowdown), with super antipoison pots. I picked up drops in the fastest manor possible, but still lost a small amount of time. It took me, on average, 6 1/2 minutes to tele to Duradel, receive the task, gear up in bank, teleport to Shanty Pass, run to kalphite lair, set up and enter the room to begin killing. I measure the timing with my unicorn, which was summoned as I hit the first hit with my whip. I was paying more attention then I usually do, but a small amount of time was sometimes lost due to running across the room to attack a soldier. Soldiers have 90 hp, making for fairly quick kills. I rarely hit zero. Results: 1st run - 57 minutes (End of unicorn + roughly 3 minutes) 2nd run - 55 minutes (Shortly after unicorn died) XP from both runs: 59,040 Total time for both runs: 1st run - 63.5 2nd run - 61.5 Average Melee XP per hour for both runs: 1st run - 55.7k 2nd run - 57.6k Average Melee XP per hour: 56.7k XP Interesting. Qeltar's XP, without counting banking or assignment, INCLUDING black mask, was 66.2k - I can't explain why he got significantly higher XP with similar equipment but no +10% strength pray. His higher stats, berserker ring instead of ring of life, and rune defender might have helped him. He might have been better acquainted with kalphites; I have not been there in a while, and without having the respawn points memorized, I might not have been killing at my very best rate. His gold charms were significantly higher then mine, while his other charms were about the same or slightly higher (I accidentally banked my charms before I recorded the exact numbers :wall: ).

But again we can't be sure how much faster experience the Slayer Helmet gives. You showed on gargoyles that he went only 6.5% fastest with than without. On kalphites he went almost 15% faster with than without. I don't use proselyte unless I am using a protection prayer and I don't ever use Veracs for Slayer. I wear bandos and use the +10% strength prayer. Increased eating for what though? Eating is faster than using Guthans to heal. Next part is based on no logic... he is 92 slayer so therefore he must be more efficient than the average high level slayer? Upon what reasoning did you get that conclusion. People can train inefficiently and still get high Slayer levels. True, but he has a proven track record for being efficient and getting good XP, although not so much as Zarfot. So you dodge the question without answering it. The same reason everyone else does, and that reason is? What does he have to gain by lying? Why didn't he lie for his other two guides? Why didn't he lie in his little mini guides for the other skills when he was maxing out all his stats? Why do his videos on youtube confirm what he says? You see now why I didn't want to test it? Because of my "supposedly timed" task of Dust Devils. You'll use any excuse to try and make your point. You'll trust Qeltar's numbers for whatever reason providing as much evidence as I did, but since I said mine, mine must be wrong... ok then... It doesn't really count as an 'excuse to make my points' when you DID only test 18 dust devils. Feel free to point me to videos where Zarfot details his XP rate testing. Correct, I really don't have that much more evidence, but did you ever stop and wonder why no one else is getting your rates, but mine are generally accepted for slayer? In that case we can you again lied to try and make your point more valid. Only losing 40k per hour at Zombie Monkies while using piety and melee protect? I went there yesterday to test the rate, I was following Muggi's guide from these forums, but I was using the +10% strength prayer. I started my timer as soon as I started attacking. After 10 minutes they stopped, I tele'd away came back. That 'round' took me 11 minutes and 1 second, but simply 11 minutes will do. I gained around 16.5k experience (no familiar), which extrapolates to 90k per hour. I used 1 prayer pot (4) in that time as well as 1 dose of a pure set and the other little things used. I extrapolated the loss to 50k per hour, with piety it would have been more. Also the bonus of the Salve Ammy isn't better than the Slayer Helm. The ammy combined with a Helm of Neitiznot is about equal to a Slayer Helmet and a Fury. Who said there was an error? Zombie Monkies more than likely have higher defence than Dust Devils. How about you actually test Dust Devils while on Slayer yourself, rather than simply complaining. You won't trust anything but your made up rates, so why don;t you test it yourself without skewing the results like you have done so with just about every other rate so far. No, they don't, I very rarely miss. I haven't formally tested dust devils, but last time I was there I was averaging around 72k XP per hour. How do you know it is 8%? It doesn't matter anyway because what I was saying was based on Slayer. If you got a Slayer task of them, are you going to grab Karils, "barrows" gloves and a Slayer Helmet, or Void melee? That was the point I was making. While on Slayer for these I use a Saradomin Godsword, a Unicorn, I don't use protect from range and I use superhuman strength. I get about 100 crimsons per hour as well as the other colour charms which is about equivalent to another 9-10 crimsons meaning I was getting about 110 per hour while on Slayer. I could obviously go faster with a Saradomin Sword, better stats and also using Piety. Impossible. I used void + piety, and got a total of 104 crimson worth of charms, in continuous combat, not counting banking or setting up. Yes I did comment on not alching during the task (which you yourself admit to not alching either). I said something along the lines of BOBs can be used to get extra food, I didn't mention that between inven and BOB you would have plenty of space (but you would). Good. Thanks for verifying what I said about you using BOBs. 32 hours is irrelvant however. Care to guess as to why? Could it be that simply it still remains to be only 1 hour to each monster? 32 hours, and 4000 kills, 1 hour of which to different Slayer tasks (duradel only has 24, and he doesn't have rates for a few of them, so it isn't really 32 hours. Again you try to make up numbers to show your side). Actually, it is quite relevant - even over different monsters, XP will average out. He has rates for, as you said, all but 2 of them, making for 22 tasks, 32 hours, and 3000-4000 kills - enough for a good average. Have I not mentioned several times while I don't get his rates, I do get close. Wow, you really are trying hard to ignore what shows you are wrong. That test With Dust Devils did show the rate I was getting, I could do tests on every other Slayer Monster if you like.... but then again, you would make up some excuse again as to why you want them to be wrong. Don't bother, Qeltar has done that for you. Somehow I doubt you 18 kills of a particular monster would be quite as accurate as his. Impossibly hard to obtain... the answer is actually no. Exaggerations... answer is also no. Inuashakent stating that doesn't make it true either. Please show us where he actually has purposely exaggerated to make the rate higher for absolutely no gain he would receive. I'm not questioning Inuashakent's method of Slayer or such, just simply your interpretation. Welcome to the internet. Believe it or not, some people enjoy lying so that they can appear important or 'amazing' by receiving more XP then anyone else. I always used the kills per hour that he got when he wasn't getting the bonus of the Slayer Helmet/Black Mask. Also for all the rates he had, only 3 of those I used he had used a cannon on. Well, take them out, and see what happens. I double checked my numbers, all of which are exactly what he had in his guides. Trumpeting what fact? I was just explaining how I got the numbers I did... you see, what I do is I show how I got the numbers whilst you just make them up, see the difference? I also see you neglected to mention the rate I got from Qeltar (who you admit is oh so accurate), and that it was higher than what you got. Monster - Hitpoints - Kills Per hour - Slayer xp/h Aberrant Spectres - 90 - 390 - 35,100 Abyssal Demons - 150 - 91 - 13,650 Black Demons - 157 - 98 - 15,386 Bloodvelds - 186 - 88 - 16,368 Dagannoths - 70 - 189 - 13,230 Dark Beasts - 220 - 63 - 13,860 Dust Devils - 105 - 151 - 15,855 Fire Giants - 111 - 143 - 15,873 Gargoyles - 105 - 129 - 13,545 Greater Demons - 87 - 165 - 14,355 Hellhounds - 116 - 126 - 14,616 Iron Dragons - 165 - 63 - 10,395 Kalphites - 90 - 320 - 28,800 Mithril Dragons - 254 - 20 - 5,080 Nechryaels - 105 - 122 - 12,810 Skeletal Wyverns - 200 - 53 - 10,600 Steel Dragons - 210 - 30 - 6,300 Suqahs - 108 - 134 - 14,472 Waterfiends - 128 - 94 - 12,032 The next ones I had forgot to add in because they weren' in the table I was looking at. Goraks - 112 - 129 - 14,448 Spiritual Mages - 85 - 169 - 14,365 Warped Terrorbirds - 150 - 99 - 14,850 So what does all that average out to? 14,817 experience per hour. That was with no Slayer Helmet, only 3 of those involved a cannon, no stat enhancing prayers and worse equipment. That is also 59.2k melee xp/h, on Slayer that is only going to get higher. Those 3 tasks with a cannon were what skewed your results slightly. Try takeing them out; I also did not include the 3 tasks he did not show. Now you say that Zarfot says at only 300k an hour, that cannon isn't worth it. Hey, isn't it you that has been saying it is 400k profit per hour at Avaiansies, how convenient. Regardless, it still has an effect as faster kills = higher rates (amazing how that works isn't it?). What skewed my results?!?! You have been the only one making up numbers and having the results skewed. You go on and on about Qeltar not even get 1/3 or whatever of Zarfots, as you said his averaged out to 47.5k... woopsie that was made up. You say Zombie Monkies only loses 40k an hour... woopsie another error. Slayer averages 8 crimsons per hour!... look at that, another mistake based on no rational logic. Shall I continue? Amazing how that 300k, when you allow for decreased chinchompa prices and the fact that that wasn't the exact threshold, lines up nicely with 400k profit per hour. Notice how, with less profit then that, the cost outweighs the time saved with it - making it slightly less then worthless. Odd, because I used 8 prayer pots in one hour at monkies, and my 8 crimsons (based on Sommas tasks, which WAS my mistake), were not as far off as your '58 crimsons' rate. -EDIT I just went back and tested the prayer drain with piety and protect from melee at zombie Monkies. I used up 13 doses of prayer during the perios in which they were aggressive. So: 13 doses of Prayer potion - 7,534*3.25 = 24,485 1 dose Pure set - 1,058+195 = 1,253 Amount of money spent in one hour - 25,738/0.1694444 = 151,896 Having proof that your an idiot - priceless Had to say it sorry : Pardon me for asking, but what was your equipment? I personally use: HP cape, salve ammy, full proslyte w/ nezinot helm, berserker ring, dragon boots, whip and zammy book, witih prayer pots, super sets, 2 geyser titan pouches, a teletab and a SGS in my invo. I've proven that setup best; zammy book works much better then defender.

:lol: Looks like someone didn't bother to read my first post. Randomly, in the middle of one of the paragraphs, I put in a request that 'if you've read this far, put the numbers two, eight, and seven in the first 3 characters of your post', to see if the poster had actually read my post ,or simply ignored all of my 'read the entire post' warnings.

You still aren't understanding this at all. I don't see where you get "even adjusted for slayer". There are so many things that can be done to speed up tasks. Equipment, cannon (and even if Qeltar used a cannon sometimes, was it in the best spot?), using stat enhancing prayers, was he paying attention and moving between kills as fast as he can? Did he pick up drops without slowing down attack speed? Did he eat or pot whilst attacking so as to provide little to no less in spped (little lost with food, none for pots)? There really aren't many things. His equipment was just fine; the only improvements could have been slayer mask\bandos. Slayer mask is easy to adjust for; considering that our method uses prayer, we will be using proslyte\verac's skirt anyway - not including prayer (also easily adjusted for), it would actually slow kills down due to the need for increased eating. He also happens to be 92 slayer, and as such no doubt is more efficient then the average high level slayer - he, too, is big on efficiency, though not as much as Zarfot. Umm right. Didn't I just say while I don't get his rates I do get close? What possible benefit could he have to lie about it or exaggerate, and you can't hack Runescape. He just aims to give you a guide about the most efficient ways to train (same as his other two guides). Although I don't think you believe he is lting either, but since you can't attain his rates, you try to discredit him. The same reason everyone lies about stuff on the internet - he's become quite famous due to his 'high rates'. No, really? I thought you could download hacks... A little sarcasm can help the mood every now and then :-# You said you got the same rates for 18 dust devil kills; I haven't seen anything else remotely resembling proof, besides your (supposedly timed) killing of dust devils. There really isn't magic to attaining high rates; I'm in constant combat at Zombies, with ZERO time due to eating or potting, and a maximum of ~10 seconds lost every 10 minutes to run back and forth, CONTINUOUSLY hitting with a whip with a better bonus then slayer helm (Salve ammy (e) and piety (+23% strength, vs. your +10%, not to mention +20% to attack), and I'm STILL getting SIGNIFICANTLY less then you, with lower stats, claim to be getting at dust devils. Explain where the error is? I'm in combat more continuously then you; constant aggressiveness means that I'm always attacking, save for the 10 second run a screen away and back to make them aggressive again. And yet you claim you can bank, get an assignment, set up invo and outfit, and kill dust devils for 40 minutes, altogether getting much better time then my continuously killing monkies? There is no room for error; the only time when I am not CONTINUOUSLY hitting with whip is the short run there and back to make them aggressive. I don't even count those seconds in my timing; they would make for approx 1.5k XP less; the rest of the time is nonstop combat with better equipment, stats (potting every 5 minutes vs. your 10), and much better prayer (+23% strength and +20% attack vs. +10% strength), without the need for food, healing, or banking of any sort. Explain how your getting 5-10k XP per hour better then me? So by your first sentence we see that you only ever use Void when it isn't for Slayer correct? If you aren't doing Slayer and are wearing Karils, are you still going to wear the Slayer Helmet... I think not. That extra +3 prayer bonus comes from the Helm of Neitiznot. Fiddle-faddle? Keep in mind (which in every case i've shown you cease to see), that it isn't 144 crimsons. It is the equivalent of 144 crimsons. Tell me, how much testing have you done while actually on Slayer using the Slayer Helmet? Very little, it delivers approx. 8% faster kills - which is nearly canceled out by the time required to tele to slayer master get an assignment, bank, setup up invo\outfit, get there, and begin slaying. The remaining XP, if anything, would be less then the effect of Void. If your using slayer helm, there is no bonus for Nezinot. Equilvilant? I get the equivalent of 105 crimsons per hour, not banking - and I'm going fast, with very few delays whatsoever. Oh, and piety again, not +10% strength. Actually, that was for many tasks. His tests for Nechryaels was in the Slayer Tower. Also much more spread out and single combat. Again you missed something very important. I said this only in the case of Gargoyles due to their closeness. I said that if need be it would be faster than Guthans.... but I also said that in most cases you would never run out of food anyway. When did I state that I take BOBs anyway? I remember saying that on the Dust Devils one I think that the rate was without a combat familiar. I also said that if you needed more room for food you could take a BOB, that was the only time I have ever mentioned them. Zarfot in some cases also said how much experience he gets with a summon included, so yes, there is rates for those also. The +4 strength bonus isn't just irrelevant because you don't use it at one. Also by the way i'm just curious, at Zombie Monkies do you use piety or what other stat enhancing prayer? I use piety, as has been stated several times before. You commented on your use of BOBs several time, such as saying that you didn't need alching runes because between your inventory and BOB you had plenty of space for drops. The +4 strength IS irrelevant; we are comparing slayer results to my results for zombie monkies. If it makes you happy, we can tack on an extra 500 XP per hour because of fire cape, but you should boost my XP by 700, making things (insignificantly) worse for slayer. Between 100-200 isn't "HUNDREDS of kills". But would you not say that thousands is more accurate over the long run.... you know... like what Zarfot's are based on. Yes, more accurate. Not going to make a large difference, though; especially considering that we have roughly 32 hours for all of the combined slayer monsters. Any high or low variations should pretty much cancel themselves out in that much time; I consider 32 hours (and around 4,000 kills) enough for fairly accurate results. Just because someone has 92 Slayer doesn't mean they instantly are being most efficient with their tasks. Also you need to stop saying no-one else gets near Zarfot's rates, they do, but you just seem to ignore that. Pardon me, who? I haven't seen anyone that says they get anywhere close to them, besides your comprehensive 18 dust devil test, including Inushakent. Creepy, yes. Impossibly hard to obtain, yes. Exaggerations? Probably... I'd also like to point out that Inuashakent even stated that Zarfot had a tendancy to exaggerate, and he (Inuashakent) has fairly methodical testing AND supports slayer Now I thought we were going to come back to this. While Qeltar may be trusted to perform tests. You are certainly not trusted to come to conclusions about them. You mentioned that from Qeltars numbers you got 47.2k xp/h. Well that alone shows you can't be trusted. I put the amount of kills he got in an hour (The ones without Black Mask/Slayer Helmet), as well as the Hitpoints of the monster intoence per hour. If you multiply that by 4 you get 59,548 experience per hour. Keep in mind that is with no stat enhancing prayers, no Slayer Helmet, and not lways using the most efficient methods. Amazing how again you say Qeltars results wouldn't be skewed, but you made sure they were. Also note that all tha spreadsheet. Added a formula and found out the experience (for Slayer), he would get per task. I then found the average. The average was 14,887 experiae rates I took were without a cannon except for on Kalphites, Aberrant Spectres (for this one I don't know if he was on Slayer or not, I think not since he was wearing a Salve ammy (e) also) and Skeletal Wyverns. Generally, when one wears a Salve ammy (e), one is not receiving a bonus from a slayer helment. On the tasks which he was wearing either a slayer helm (3-4 of them, I believe), or a salve ammy, I did not increase the statistics based on our 'slayer helmet' numbers. Also I never said that because he wasn't wearing a Fire Cape that his equipment was complete garbage... you could try and find a quote where I did say that, but that would be impossible. Equipment is also not just limited to the cape slot (amazing I know). As for your subtraction... well lets see. Armour... doesn't cost anything technically. Zarfot either wears proselyte or Bandos armour I believe. Since anyone could buy the armour and resell after their done, it doesn't really have a cost. Pots might add up to about 5mil. 5,000 Prayer pots is about 37.5mil and the cannonballs, I don't know how many he used. Put simply as mmmchips1 said, there are other drops than Whips, Dark Bows, and Dragon Boots. Rune items over time will add up to over 10mil. Special drops like Mauls and Mystic will add up. Herbs add up, as do seeds. Then things like half keys, dragon drops and all these other alchable drops will add up. Put simply, that was indeed the overall experience rate he got per hour on average as well as the profit. I don't see how you can argue that with only 76 Slayer either. You are just past 1/13th of the way through the skill so of course you haven't gotten alot of drops yet. Actually, I have all of the data in a spreadsheet as well, so you can stop trumpeting that fact. Like I said, Zarfot himself has said a cannon, if you only make 300k per hour, is not worth it; now that grey chinchompas have fallen, the advantage of a cannon is almost exactly balanced if you make 400k per hour, meaning that it would have virtually no effect on our calculations. That could possibly be what skewed your results; I'm not sure what else it could be besides inaccurate data entry.

Taken into account; all drops are included. While my figures are arguable, they would have to be impossibly high for slayer to be a good way to train combat, unless you enjoy it.

It can't just be that. His rates are well over double qeltars, even adjusted for slayer, and that's not counting banking. His runecrafting guide numbers were a bit more in line, at least I got within half a dozen seconds of his. But 160k XP per hour with slayer is insane. Or, possibly, when no other high level player I've ever seen is able to get ANYWHERE close to them, he's lying, exaggerating, or some sort of runescape hacker :? Karils is better with slayer helmet, Void is better without. Not sure what you mean about the 'prayer drains slower with karils', because karils top and bottom, barrows gloves, and slayer helm all have no prayer bonus. I very rarely have to pray with void, and with piety get about 5% more kills, or 5 kills worth, more per hour. Don't even try to argue with me about Fiends; I have done a considerable amount of testing there, and I know my numbers are correct. So any fiddle-faddle about 144 crimsons per hour with +10% strength pray will be ignored. Like I said, it's for one task, and they aren't much more spread out in the slayer tower - if you attack the next one as the one you hit starts its death animation, you waste very little time. if your banking with eating, it's much slower. The +2 prayer bonus has very little effect on XP rate. All of our numbers so far have been without summons; you stated that this was because you took BOBs instead anyway. You can't just switch to summons now; even Zarfot's numbers don't have them. The +4 strength bonus is irrelevant, I didn't use it at zombies so my rates would jump just as much. Very true, I did say that. You will also notice that he had over 100 kills for virtually all of his monsters, and generally quite a few more. Not spot on accurate, but it's not going to give any massivly skewed results. I could say the exact same thing about Qeltar's testing; he happens to be 92 slayer, which although isn't as high as Zarfot's, at least let you know he has an idea of the XP of tasks. I find it unusual that no other person has ever gotten anything close to Zarfot's numbers. My numbers come from Qeltar's, not being made up. We've made adjustments for all of those 'effects' - His methods of kills are just as fast for virtually ever task, +10% strength would boost XP at most by 5% (factored in), and his equipment was the same as mine at zombies. Just because someone isn't using a fire cape doesn't make his equipment complete garbage. Not that it matters; I didn't use a fire cape either at zombies, which we are using for comparison. As for the last part, how about the subtraction for thousands of cannon balls, 5,000 prayer pots (40 million for them alone), pots, armor etc.? There is no way he is making 160k an hour WHILE using cannon AND piety; that would be the equivalent of nearly 400k an hour without piety and a cannon.

And Zarfot's rates didn't take months to acquire? Qeltar having tested every monster doesn't matter, there is only 24 different ones that count here. 2 of which he had never tested. To be adressed later; I'm starting to believe Inushkant about Zarfot's exaggeration. I guess I didn't read his guide carefully enough the first time :-#, his numbers seem far above anything else I've ever seen. I know, though, Qeltar is accurate; his Avansie numbers, when they came out, were almost exactly what I got with very similar stats; whereas I've never been able to get anywhere close to Zarfots numbers. I used to chalk it up to his amazing concentration and efficiency, but now I'm not so sure I got these rates from Zarfot's guide. He has approximate charm drop rates for every task (except steel dragons). Please also remember that it isn't actually 144 crimsons per hour at waterfiends. It is the equivalent of that though, with gold/green/blue charms converted into the experience give per crimson (about 4.07 gold charms = 1 crimsons, 2.69 green = 1 crimson, 0.5 blue charms = 1 crimson). You shoudln't use full void melee in my opinion either especially if you're on a Slayer task. You lose the bonus of the Slayer Helmet (which is already better than Void). If it isn't on Slayer, it is hard to say which is better between Void and say Karils. Personally I still think Karils is better. While I am there I just about never use the protect from range prayer, only using it near the end of the trip sometimes. With Karils you can wear "barrows" gloves and a Helm of Neitiznot, which gives an extra 15 strength bonus, which is about 4 damage onto the max hit. That is about equal to the Void's 10% to damage. The gloves also give +12 to crush, but whether 10% attack is better or not i'm not sure. However the defence bonuses of Karils is what settles it to me. I wasn't on slayer, and I have conclusivly proven void better with my own personal tests, in terms of kills, cost, and danger. We are counting cannon. You proved it has virtually no effect on the rates? When? You have done no such thing. Put simply, cannon gets faster kills, increasing Slayer experience per hour, therefore increasing the amount of charms given, therefore increasing the Summoning experience per hour. I posted earlier the maths that shows the cannon is worth it (from Zarfot's guide), which you also ignored then. You can't say the cost outweighs the benefits either. Zarfot, for the 13.8mil Slayer experience he did while gathering charms gained him profit still and he was using the cannon and piety at every opportunity. He said he used about 80mil overall on the cost of Summoning, and because of what he made from Slayer he broke even. So with Piety and Cannon he made at least 80mil profit. You also neglected to see that was based on only the crimson charms. You also purposely missed out on my edit where I had calculated the the average "crimson" charms per hour with the other charms calculated in. That number is 34.2 crimsons per hour. I also explained why his numbers were alot lower when compared to during Slayer, which you also seemed to have ignored. Banking, which includes setting up invo/pots, getting tasks, in almost every case takes under 3 minutes to do. That time isn't really significant in the long run. No, it's not - I happen to have a spreadsheet too, and I came up with just over 27 crimsons total. You apparently didn't realize that all my numbers are without a cannon; basically, 1 cannonball hits an average of 12.5, for 12.5 slayer XP at a cost of 200 GP per, or 192 million total for 99 slayer; far above our projected '99.6' M cost with your figures, and roughly in line with mine. I see cannons as wildly inefficient, and a waste of money and time. I had not expected the Slayer Helmet to give a 15% increase, because as you said, it is to Attack and Strength levels. That doesn't correlate into 15% accuracy and 15% damage. Also, you don't spend 80 minutes on the average duradel task. There is very few tasks that take over an hour. Those are Abyssal Demons, Black Demons, Dark Beasts, Iron/Steel Dragons, Waterfiends. But then again, it comes down to task number. From the moment you finish the task, get to a bank, get a new task, get new inven, get to new monster, takes a very short amount of time: It averages out to pretty much exactly 3 minutes. It takes 2.8 minutes to get to waterfall actually : , as shown above. It is also more than 10% experience boost when you do Slayer efficiently. I mentioned that in my edit, which you neglected to see (it wasn't even in your quote). You also can't really say you had quoted it before I added the edit in as there was an hour and 47 minute gap between the posts, and straight after posting it I went back to Qeltars numbers and then edited my post. So it is actually 3 minutes to bank on average, more tasks take under an hour than what do (also most of Zarfot's numbers were also without competeition). You don't seem to realize that I was using time to get to monster vs. actual slaying time, so the shorter the tasks the less efficient they are. I'm counting time to get a new task (42 seconds), bank, set up invo\outfit for that task, and actually run to it - five minutes is generous for most tasks, I know I tend to get stalled at the bank talking to friends and whatnot. With the Gargoyle's you'll notice Qeltar also used a Whip. A Saradomin Sword is the best weapon to use, followed by any Godsword, and then the Whip. This is because they are weak to crush. Also note Qeltar killed them in the Slayer tower, and they are more spread out. They are also further from a bank. When using the Chaos Tunnels it is far more efficient to use food than Guthans (you are within a very short distance from the bank after all). Though you can complete a task without needing more food anyway. The Slayer Tower is also single combat, so no familiar. He always uses a trimmed achievement cape. A Fire cape has only 2 less prayer bonus, but had +4 strength, +1 to attack and +2 extra to defence bonuses. So even if the difference is so little, his experience rates are already extremeley low. Granted, I'm not certain on the gargoyles - I've never tested them, so I can't argue that point. Qeltar didn't count banking time, so that doesn't matter; the spread outishness of one task should have virtually no effect on the XP. Most of his guthans tasks were ones that very rarely hit; A summon would have helped, but Guthans would probably be faster then banking. Familiars have not been counted the entire time; you yourself said so, so that is a moot point. The +4 strength of a fire cape shouldn't even have a measurable difference; my rates at Zombies are with HP cape, so a fire cape would do the same thing to those numbers anyway. You also keep mentioning that Qeltar has dedicated hours of work for this whole database. Keep in mind, his rates come off of only one hour at that monster. You yourself keep saying that it needs to be tested over hundreds of monsters (which Zarfot has done : ). Some of his rates come off of one hour; the majority come off of more then one. And virtually all of them are over 100 kills - to be sure, not the largest sample, but enough for reasonable accurate results. I'm not sure what you mean over the hundreds of monsters... Qeltar has done that, not Zarfot. Perhaps you meant over hundreds of hours, which is true - however, the more I look at Zarfot's numbers, the more it looks that way. His are consistently far above Qeltar's and my own, and in fact, almost anyone else's I've ever seen. When he trained Slayer to get the charms for 99 Summoning he gained approximately 13.8mil Slayer experience (as said earlier). He said he averaged 26-27k Slayer xp per hour (he got this rate by timing himself 30 hours online). He also said he about broke even with the costs meaning he made 80mil profit from Slayer whilst using piety and a cannon at every opportunity. That means he took about 520.75 hours to get that much Slayer experience and hence average about 153,623hp/h of profit. He also said that over all that time (including the 14 hours he spent making pouches from charms), he gained 85mil total experience. That means on average he was getting 163,225 experience per hour. So not only does that beat Zombie Monkies overall experience per hour by about 20k, he also gained money. So umm.... Zombie Monkies were more efficient how? That sounds downright impossible. 160k profit and XP per hour, with piety and cannon? :roll: Odd how someone else, with highly respected testing skill and methodology, barely managed to get about one third the XP of that, plus a lower profit.