compfreak847

*sigh* I take it you died and lost something valuable? Sorry I haven't been in the CC lately, I did 4 days of hardcore questing to finish WGS and slay demons, and it's very hard to talk while doing so. That being said, I am SICK of the duplicate threads on items lost upon death. As per my responses on half a dozen of these threads, before the GE, high alch was the only value that applied, and even if they change it now it presents quite a few problems - what about untradable\quest items? I don't want to keep 1 GP over my crystal bow simply because it has a market value of 0. Additionally, it would throw the market into chaos - the price of all armor sets is based upon what is lost and kept.

As low level magic is quite overpowered, bumping up the requirements for the spells to 75 or 80 would solve the mid range, and adding in one more set of spells at the high end completely fixes it. A considerable amount of debate in this thread has dealt with PTP magic, as it goes hand in hand with FTP. I find it completely on topic and worth posting.

It is, as the numbers have background ties to verify each method, and the second one is pulled out of context you'll start screaming about how it doesn't have cannon or piety or any of the other half dozen methods disproved in the early pages. Let's see, you gave the profit as 685k per hour. At 1/130 kills (previously agreed upon rate) per boot, and 240 kills per hour (81.6k XP\h, slightly high for a low HP\mid defence, spread out monster, but I think it's a reasonable assumption if one pays very close attention) not including your banking times, which you still haven't given me, I'm coming up with 240/130=1.85 boots per hour X 237k per = 438k per hour. Now, it's very difficult to pick up the lesser 1-2k drops without losing a whip hit, but I'm sure you throw that in, so I'll add the approx. 30k from that onto your rate. Nature runes and pure essense give enough back to cover prayer pots for protection and +10% strength as well as super sets, with approx. 20k left over. This gives us a grand total of, assuming ALL drops are picked up, 488k per hour. A far cry from your 685k per hour, a full 200k\h difference - and that's not inclduing banking\task time, which will add another few minutes to each task and drop the ates by 5-7%. The majority of those tasks were proven to be inefficient to cannon - see earlier in this thread. So you use +10% & piety with bandos? Interesting, I always used proslyte top\veracs skirt for that, but I do have bandos so I'm willing to go with it. A discrepancy, though. I use super sets, and repot every 5 or 8 minutes, but I'll try the 10 minutes. Not a big fan of brews, but it shouldn't change results. Then again, you said you made up your rates from earlier, so don't try to refrence them. The boot rate has always been 1/140. I'm talking about rare drops. A simple yes or no suffices, but a "no" makes it that much harder to compare rates. I knew it was a typo, and I responded to it as such. The numbers were based off my results, not yours, as duly noted above. I never said I hadn't heard of someone, I said I hadn't seen real proof of it being regularly obtained using the methods proven most efficient in this thread. If your leaving, we need to establish which numbers are different for each of us, as we'll never have time to test every task. I'd suggest we end the previous argument\flame war above for the sake of brevity; if you agree, I'll simply stop responding to the top so we can more easily debate the numbers themselves. I'm somewhat busy over the weekend, but I should have time for posting and some testing. We need to work fast today and friday, though, to have rates established and tested before you leave.

Interesting way of saying you lost, but it works. Oddly reminiscent of a child standing in the corner with his fingers in his ears screaming "I'm right!". Yep, that's what I've been telling you for several pages. Or because it has a dozen different sources, all tied into my central argument, and you have yet to produce a single one. I like to train it too, and it's a good demonstration of off topicness.

My rates WERE posted. As mentioned, most of them matched up with Qeltars; the ones that did not, I re tested until the correct numbers were established. I proved that it would have drastic effects on spirit mages, and rare drops for all monsters constituted more then your profit. Many questions on experience rates remain unanswered such as banking times, summons used, tasks cannoned, and specific outfits\prayers\pots used - and that's not even getting started on charm rates. No, you certainly didn't. Drop rates of 140 were used (later adjusted downards to please you), with kill rates of 240 per hour. Never seen 30.8k per hour, the most I've ever seen obtained is just over 19k. A drop of 8k XP is typical for paying less attention via posting on forums, IMing, and chatting with friends via CC and PM while tending to various RL tasks. Then give the rest so we can get on with the debate. Petty arguing over whether or not details should be released gets you nowhere. Assuming you meant now, and that would indeed be an interesting quote - except that it was certainly not the end of our debate, and my numbers WERE based on testing. I'm not even going to get into the issue of you completely making up rates for the first few months of arguing, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are now telling the truth (as I honestly thought for the first 40 pages). Two maxed players, slaying quickly and efficiently, are going to obtain very similar rates. If they don't, one or the other of them is doing something wrong. So here's my game plan for the next few months: If our methods and task details are examined closely, we can note the discrepancy in your and my results, then test with a standardized invo and outfit to compare results and eliminate as many possible discrepancies as we can. Once that's worked out, we can meet in game or use another method to slay side by side and see what's causing the discrepancy. We should then be able to hammer out the details of what we both agree slayer's rates are for once and for all; after that, it's a simple task to run the calculations to compare them to Armored Zombies 103k & 190k profit + 6.8k Summoning XP. We can both re test zombies as well to ensure that data is as accurate as possible and there's no room for argument in any of the rates). If you have any comments or concerns with that, please let me know now and I'll change it, I'm sure we'll soon get bogged down in the tiny details, but it's nice to have a plan to keep things moving (I usually do for debates, but I'm taking some advice and publicizing it to help keep debates flowing smoothly).

This one isn't, but this thread and the vast majority of my RS debates are. They can consider long term consequences, but it's not in the same manner that an adult would, for reasons mentioned in my post at viewtopic.php?f=66&t=787454&start=340#p6562002, detailed in the 3rd paragraph. But I haven't been making illogical arguments, my creditability has been doing fine, and my creditability really doesn't concern me much - I deal almost exclusively with numerical fact based arguments, where numbers are the only debate. Sure. You brought up a point, I refuted it. You reworded the point, I reworded mine. This was repeated until you gave up as you had either run out of patience or ways to reword your point. My original point still stood, as I had led you into a logic trap by forcing you to center your debate on act vs. be before I pulled out the dictionary and proved my use of them to be separate - effectively proving you wrong, with no other way to respond. On the contrary, basing an otherwise-lost argument on the fact that in a completely unrelated argument I thought a post was within rules and one moderator didn't is grasping at straws.

Since you apparently ignored the posts that detailed the links, I'll helpfully give you the background info: Math related: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buisness - Proof that for-profit business is expected to turn a profit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra - Proof that our current decimal system is believed to be accurate http://www.mathleague.com/help/algebra/algebra.htm - Further proof that our current decimal system is believed to be accurate, after your denouncing Wikipedia as a reliable source http://library.thinkquest.org/20991/prealg/eq.html - Further proof that our current decimal system is believed to be accurate, after your denouncing anything not from Jagex as a reliable source Definition related: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/for-profit - Proof that "profit" represents a system where incoming (gross profit) cash flow exceeds outgoing (non-recoverable expenditures) as pertaining to Jagex as a for-profit company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_sch ... th_America - Proof that grade school consists of 6-8th, and in many areas 5-8th grades, not simply 8th http://www.jagex.com/corporate/About/history.ws - Proof that Jagex was created as a corpertaion to make a financially viable profit (Second paragraph; "to make the operation of RuneScape commercially viable") http://www.runescape.com/members/members.ws - Proof that both FTP and PTP are created by Jagex and run solely by them; establishing that the two are interrelated, and cash spent on one must come out of the other if the profit is to remain the same. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof - Details of the word "proof" providing evidence that proof itself indicates the finishing of an argument Financially related: http://www.mechscapeworld.com/images/re ... erview.gif - Proof that server and staff costs do exist, and represent the vast majority of Jagex outlay http://www.mechscapeworld.com/images/re ... xStaff.jpg - Proof that CR makes up a sizable portion of the payroll, as relating to the forums and customer support\communication. That should clear up anything you missed in the first post :P It's hard to read moods over the internet, so I'll just set it straight: I'm in a good mood, no need to think of me as moody any more. I love debating, and life in general is good. I'm a naturally cheerful person, I always think of stress as killing my heart and making me die early. Keeps me stress free, unless I'm really down, in which case it makes it worse. But that's rare :lol: Some like it, some don't. I'm one of the ones who does : Mild flaming comes standard with my debates, anger hasn't been seen as of yet. See above ;) It's all on topic, relating to how FTP and PTP separate were a good thing. Posts don't have to follow the exact parameters set out by the OP. And it aint even close to a hot topic, take a look at my "slayer sucks" :lol:

I was referring to numerical facts, as evidenced in the third paragraph of viewtopic.php?f=66&t=765267&start=1340#p6592324 What? I'm saying that acting and being mature give the same physical end result, and the debate over whether it fit the definition of mature was purely hypothetical. Yes, but it's detracting in hopes that the issue can be solved in a few posts instead of having to drag through the rest of the debate for no purpose but monotonous back and forth - something you stated in viewtopic.php?f=66&t=765267&start=1300#p6591586 (2nd paragraph) that you didn't like about my debate style. I'm trying to improve, I can see you have a point \ You not only failed to respond to my posts but completely abandoned the thread, posting only once to agree with another poster on a completely separate issue. You can make all the excuses you want about "getting tired of the argument", but as it is, my points stand unchallenged, and no amount of regurgitation of old arguments on your part will change that. As evidenced in viewtopic.php?f=66&t=765267&start=1300#p6591119 and my response on viewtopic.php?f=66&t=765267&start=1300#p6591300 (8th paragraph), it was agreed upon (or so I thought, perhaps you have a clarification) that moderators didn't represent the end all be all of proofs.

Then it would belong in General Discussion. It has neither a valid argument nor facts to back it up; it's simply a discussion on a fact of life, on par with "taxes suck" and "it sucks that I can't afford a bigger house or a nicer car".

So the point is to make it easier to switch accounts? I could see this being handy for pures, but make it optional so that players who primarily use one account don't have to enter a pin each time. I do see one downside, though - if the username\pin to your login account is compromised, ALL of your accounts are.

Distortion of numbers is simply dishonesty; listing a weapons attack speed as, say, 2.8 seconds instead of 2.2 is lying, plain and simple. Any numerical debate based on a lie will quickly degenerate, as has been shown many times. But I agree that kids can act mature, which for all purposes besides academic discussion is the same thing. Then why keep bringing it up? I skim over it in less then a second, and it simply increases confusion and post complexity while detracting from your main debate. Best to stick to points you believe in. It's one or the other - either you think people disagreeing with me weakens unrelated debates on different topics, or you think it doesn't. Which is it?

According to the definition of "proof" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof), "evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true", should I post proof, there's nothing else you could post to rectify it - proof establishes it as true, period, and signifies the end of a debate. Not that I'm lacking in sources - I've already posted 11; you must have overlooked them. I'll repost them for your benefit: Math related: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buisness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra http://www.mathleague.com/help/algebra/algebra.htm http://library.thinkquest.org/20991/prealg/eq.html Definition related: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/for-profit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_sch ... th_America http://www.jagex.com/corporate/About/history.ws http://www.runescape.com/members/members.ws http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof Financially related: http://www.mechscapeworld.com/images/re ... erview.gif http://www.mechscapeworld.com/images/re ... xStaff.jpg You posted one source, the definition of Assume, that stemmed from a misinterpretation of my post which I corrected you on, making the definition irrelevant. Now, let's see some sources from you that relate to the discussion and disprove each of mine. What's odd about it? I had a good week, it generally puts people in a good mood :? Already told you I'm not, I'm just brisk and sarcastic when debating. It's me paying attention, not me hating people ;)

But they will generally still argue, and since I stick to fact-based arguments, I don't have to worry about how highly they regard me. Which I agreed with, so I'm not sure why you insist upon dragging it out. Only in relation to opinion based threads; as far as facts (specifically numerical) go, prove that X + 5 = 8, and there's nothing left to argue. That's what I mean by concrete arguments; as virtually everything is RS is numbers-based (Mostly because it's coded in numbers :lol: ), most RS arguments boil down to 1 number versus another. I'm glad we got it straight that you needn't post any more about what you think of me, we don't have to waste any more time on that. I'll assume you won't try and bring it up again, just quote this paragraph and say you agree with it so I have a quick sound byte in case you bring it up again. So you agree that people agreeing or disagreeing with me has nothing to do with my debate, and your whole point about a mod disagreeing with me has nothing whatsoever to do with debating, and was merely a personal jab?

I've been using Artemis's method with my unicorn and maxed stats. I tried several trips with whip, godsword, and mage, and this beats them all. It's far less hassle only switching between two prayers, and then only rarely, and it is essentially the same speed - even faster with piety flashing. Plus, it allows for trips of 50+ kills; it uses very few supplies and doesn't have the bother of frequent banking.

No proof besides financial records, public statement, the main website itself, PTP vs. FTP, and the entire current decimal system. What's your proof, again? I don't recall any of your sources, perhaps you forgot to include them? I don't hate anyone on this forum, I'm in a very good mood now (and have been for the past week, buisness is looking up somewhat \ ), but I do stick to what I believe in. One out of three aint bad. He's welcome to ignore my posts, I certainly wasn't forcing him to read them. He's the one who sent hate-filled PMs, I never sent him any unsolicited message of spam or any other kind :?

I disagree with that. It tends to draw more attention to them; unless they fade into the background, they are generally hounded upon more and more as people spy easy prey. Everyone likes to be right, and most people like to correct obvious mistakes in others. My bad, I meant "being vs. acting". See my previous posts in that thread if you need more background. It basically boils down to appearing vs. having the frontal lobe thought processes that signify psychological (mental) maturity. I certainly care who's right, or I wouldn't have admitted it when I believed I was wrong, and it would be hard to debate without listening to the other person :lol: Read any review site for an example. Critics are always more outspoken. How many times must I repeat I really don't care what you think of me? You would do well to focus on the actual debate instead of trumpeting how you think my reputation is shot.

That's odd, their financial records seem to disagree with you, as does our current system of accepted decimal manipulation. Or your just using it as an excuse because you've been proven wrong. As for the quote below, I'd like to show you a PM from that same person I received a few hours ago: 'Nuff said.

It's 07, but he's making the argument that because I didn't personally collect them from Jagex, the numbers are invalid :lol: I did learn to read, well enough to read the financial statements. It would be good for you to do so also. Not sure what insult your trying to use, but I certainly can't materialize money either. Hence why I'd rather mine went to updates for me, not updates for freeloaders. Sorry, but I don't need Jagex to tell me that addition works. Thankfully, I have their financial records anyway, so I have both. There's more direct ways to admit you were wrong, but I guess that works too.

More so then if the game didn't exist?

May I ask what that has to do with Algebra? I'm whining because the money I paid to receive updates is being distributed to freeloaders with no return. Sorry, but flame as you will, you can't materialize money out of thin air. *sigh* The sarcasm floats right over your head :?

It's the best possible solution to a charity. Legalizing RWT means shutting down RS, and you can't run a charity on a game that doesn't exist. So it's the best of all possible options.

That's a definite yes, but I don't think I've ever encountered such a person yet. I stick to the logic\factual debates where everything is set in stone and there is a definite wrong and right. English sometimes stretches this, but definitions can usually clear things up. Hence why I generally don't participate in religious debates; there is no information that can be used for a definite conclusion. You must have looked at the wrong post, as the post I linked to referenced your "arguments" against being vs. mature. The last section covers it best, though the argument is best confined to that thread. It's a debate. I don't care who is right or wrong on an online forum about RS. I love debating; if I didn't, would have left this forum long ago. I'm here mainly to argue. For every critical post, I've had 3 other people PM me saying what a great job I'm doing. Don't try and use the 'I can't prove you wrong, but since other people agree with me you must be wrong!' argument. We're talking about a concrete argument, not a complete vs. incomplete debate. You misunderstood my post. I'm simply saying that the skill is worse combat XP then powertraining methods, correcting a common misconception I noted, especially in the H&A forums. I'm not saying the skill isn't enjoyable or worth training for fun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra seem to take issue with that. No matter how much you whine about it, 2 + 2 will never equal 5 :roll: I don't recall seeing you say you were in 8th grade, perhaps you could point that out for me? All I remember is "middle school", taken to mean grades 5 through 8th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_sch ... th_America). Ever been to A[bleep]hanastan? If you haven't, how do you know it exists? How do you know the Space Shuttle landed? I didn't see anything about that at Jagex.com. In the same manner, I know that business are designed to produce profit. I'll repeat my steps again, since it seem to have slipped your mind as to which one you were arguing against :roll: #1: Jagex is a for-profit business (jagex.com) #2: The goal of a for-profit business, by definition, is to make a profit (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/for-profit) #3: If losses increase in one area, they must decrease in another to maintain profit (Simple addition, General Math; Detailed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra)

Then it voilates the rants forum rules at viewtopic.php?f=66&t=783809:

Ah, that clears it up. And what does trying to discredit me have to do with this argument? It certainly doesn't bother me, and it's not going to make me suddenly dislike debating. See viewtopic.php?f=66&t=787454&start=360#p6563861, where I completely discredit your made up definitions. "Shaping up" and "creditability" don't hinge on your approval of me, and I honestly couldn't care less which you think; it makes no difference in a factual argument. Which is quite obviously proven wrong in the threads where I am proven wrong (See the Torso thread for a recent example). Which has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread, which seeks to prove that slayer is a fun alternative method to powertraining, but is not as efficient in terms of XP - a factual argument, not opinion based.