The_Gabe

Do not support. Well maybe the lower alcohol limit is okay. Except for the motorway driving (Don't know what that is even) it sounds like the license process in Tennessee.-

I agree with all your point accept that you're using 1 person to describe 300 million which I am against.

Basically where I stand. There is no universal solution that will make everybody happy, so what fairer way is there than majority rules? The tyranny of the majority. I stand for the freedom of choice by the person receiving the medical operation versus a government upholding someone having expressed rights over you. Be it legal guardians, cops, states, etc. Hence my stance on any controversial issue. Also my stance on abortion follows this too. I think the WOMEN deserves the freedom of choice for her medical operation she consents to [in the case of it being an abortion im still alright with it] and since an unborn fetus is not considered fully living being until it can be born I support her right to do what she wants with her own body and whatever is in it. If she backs out and doesn't abort it, and the second it is born I see that baby as a sovereign being who shouldn't have its rights taken by a 3rd party [in this case the mother], now there are other issues where I said my 2 cents on such as life threatening medical operations, other cosmetic operations such as a cleft lip or a reconstructive surgery from a bad injury from a car accident or serious burn. However just cutting off some skin cause you have the right to decide that for your child is something I am personally against. Yet, as Nomrombom mentioned, you can reverse the circumcision according to http://articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/31/health/he-asadults31 . So, an operation, with religious background, helps prevent diseases, and has a lot less complications, pain, and memories at birth and can be reversed if not wanted later in life is a violation of human rights? To me, I'd be a violation of human right not to do so. There seems to be more pros than cons doing it at birth. IF IT CAN BE RESERVED, IT'S NOT MUTILATION. Simple as that.

Ok, how do you grow back fingers? Yet, it is such as small portion of the people, while saving the rest a lot of complications, pain. Your point still doesn't stand based on those arguments.

Cut the crap. Half the stuff you say doesn't make any sense.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/31/health/he-asadults31 [spoiler=other article]Male Circumcision (Part 2) – Much More Than The Mutilation of Sexual Pleasure By Jamie Glaz. To read the article click here Wall Street Journal - December 28, 2000 'Intactivists' Seek to Undo A Long-Practiced Ritual By BARRY NEWMAN Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL CONCORD, Calif. -- For over a century, in the belief that nature can be improved upon, Americans have circumcised their baby boys. Today, the value of circumcision as a health measure is in doubt in some quarters at a time when face lifts, tummy tucks and breast implants have lost their ability to shock us. Should it come as any surprise, then, that some men would try to regain what circumcision took away? "If you're willing to walk around with a pin through your tongue," says R. Wayne Griffiths, one of the principal founders of the foreskin-restoration movement, "this is not absurd at all." ... ( you may buy the whole article from the Wall Street Journal website at www.wsj.com Go to the website click the tab to search from 1996 to 91 days and type in 'foreskin restoration' ) http://tlctugger.com/testimonials.htm http://www.houstonpress.com/2007-07-12/news/the-fantastic-foreskin/ Once more, not only does it say small fraction, it does not state that these were circumcisions from birth. EDIT: Taking a closer look, the article says there's a way to restore the foreskin. Your whole argument about mutilation just collapsed.

What is this I don't even :unsure:

To make it illegal is perhaps irrational, but the parents should be fully informed of what could happen to their baby, especially when the circumcision is not religiously motivated. Are you saying that parents are not informed?

When the land was divided into Isral and Palestine, the jews, who were a minority, were given most of the lands. Of course they wouldn't just say "Ok, this is the Palestine we want". It was unfair, moreso if you consider that the palestines had been living there before. Also, it's not that "they didn't want to negotiate". These "negotiations" are simply one-sided deals that barely even touch the surface of what the palestines are demanding. Go ahead and read what was said today. Israel is ready to give up portions and land for a Palestinian state, but they are not ready to accept a Jewish State existing. Who isnt ready for it? Palestina or Israel? Palestina.

When the land was divided into Isral and Palestine, the jews, who were a minority, were given most of the lands. Of course they wouldn't just say "Ok, this is the Palestine we want". It was unfair, moreso if you consider that the palestines had been living there before. Also, it's not that "they didn't want to negotiate". These "negotiations" are simply one-sided deals that barely even touch the surface of what the palestines are demanding. Go ahead and read what was said today. Israel is ready to give up portions and land for a Palestinian state, but they are not ready to accept a Jewish State existing.

You've stated elsewhere in this thread that you're not against abortion, which implies you're pro-choice, meaning you feel that the parents should be able to, should have the freedom to choose whatever they feel is best. But when it comes to circumcision, you're suddenly anti-choice, instead opting for the person to get a circumcision themselves when they're over the age of consent, which is a painful and annoying procedure. When you're circumcised as a kid, it might hurt at that moment, the baby might cry a bit, but the baby won't remember the pain. The baby isn't even self-conscious enough to realize what pain is or what's happening. If adults are allowed to decide about the baby's life or death according to you, then why can't they decide themselves whether they want their kid circumcised? In the end, the effects on the person's life is close to nothing, it's not like your parents are attaching a big sign to your head saying you're an idiot and don't deserve to ever get paid. It's something that only a few people will see. The medical effects, both positive and negative, are debatable, but as far as I know, it's not a matter of life or death in the same way inserting radioactive material into a kid's heart would be. I agree with most of what you said, but the fact is the operation can be lethal. In that case, I really don't think it should be done. Whether that's grounds to make it illegal or not, I'm still wondering about. You're a square. :lol: No, because those actually have a use. As for cosmetic surgeries, patients should be able to judge and choose for themselves if they want the surgery. Unfortunately, much religious talk surrounds the issue, so while that may constitute a valid use for some, it might seem like the operation falls within the category of cosmetic surgeries. According to http://www.noharmm.org/incidenceUS.htm, out of 65,863,000 circumcisions, 131-2744 deaths have occurred. At a worst case scenario, that's 0.000042. Keep in mind that the numbers were totaled up from 1940-1990, so medical procedures have become safer still. The insignificant chance of complications should not be considered. It would be irrational to act on such an insignificant factor.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke to Congress today.

You're not exactly the easiest OTer to read. And that's cool and all, I'm not criticizing you, just saying, on occasion it takes a fair amount of effort. Onto your argument. Here is what I think is a better analogy: a trained surgeon, possessing of all the tools necessary for a circumcision in the rules of the art, including anesthetics (which, one can hope, are not a part of McDonalds' food), precise and sterile cutting devices, etc., decides to kidnap children and circumcise them, regardless of their will. That's against the law. No one will disagree with me. However, there's one difference between this case (coupled witht he McDonalds analogy) and the real one: the parents' will isn't kept in mind. The parents' will should be more important. Babies can't be sovereign over their own body. They don't even know what that means, let alone have the necessary thought processes to protect themselves. The parents are just doing what they think the child will be happy with 20 years down the line. Keep in mind even with all that it is still painful and done without consent of the person getting the operation. In any case im glad that is the only thing we do, imagine if we had a culture where parents could beat their kids faces in as a beauty modification. Why not? Sure they dont have concept of what it means, it just means that they cant knowling consent to operations, sex, tattoos, etc. until they have concept of the affects of doing so [18 years old in the US]. I support the parents rights in situations where iet is life threatening or painful to not do an operation but the kid is still too young to legally sign for themselves. Another thing what if parents dont have their best interest for their child, after all they could legally make you give up a kidney if they wanted. Do you think thats right? I dont think the potential to allow that nor circumcisions should exist at all. Once more, please show me statistics of people who were circumcised at birth and are not happy with it.

Once more, Giordano and Das, you two seem to forget the fact that Israel did try to compromise with the Palestinian "prime minister", who in fact, refused to negotiate. And for another history lesson, there would have been a Palestinian state if they would have agreed to the compromise after WWII to split the territory to an Israel-Palestinian territories.

Hell, why don't the parents sell off one of the kid's kidneys? The little tyke only needs the one, and it's a sweet few grand. Thank you for another post that completely missed the point. I was answering Ring_World about someone suing their parents for cash because of a circumcision. I'm simply stating how much is averages out to raise a kid, and your post, in all due respect, is completely... ???

Parents do not always do what is best for the child, let alone always know what is. Yet most parents, who even bothered to consider this, would probably know.

I'm sorry, but are you being serious? Bastard should be happy he didn't get aborted. Lets always blame the parents. Yup. After everyone they had done for the child---raise him, feed him, cloth him,--- if his penis is not what he chose, lets blame the parents. I mean, there surely aren't more important things in life now, are there? I reserve the parents rights to abort him however once he is born I think that he holds all the rights to person and property as a human being afterall in the united states those are unalienable rights derived directly from God [according to the law]. So from what I understand Abortion-> Sure go ahead Circumcision-> NO DON'T TOUCH ME SUE SUE SUE Also, seeing as you do say law is derived directly from God, what about atheists? Would you say they are excerpt from this? Laws are not made by God, they are made by the people. Until someone is the legal age of 18, as the United State government says, the parents have custody and will know best for the child. Don't circumcise your kid, nobody is forcing you; however, don't talk for other people when circumcision at birth was the right choice and would have saved a lot of pain. In this case, the good outweigh the bad. Until you can give me statistics that say that the majority of people circumcised at birth are unhappy, and I will stay standing for the parents to do so to their children. Abortion = by definition a fetus isn't a sovereign being therefor before a certain stage of development you can abort A baby is considered a person therefor has the rights of a person. I realize they are made by people and I myself am an atheist however the law of America recognizes unalienable rights to be God given. I personally believe that if a person [parent or not] harms your person or property you should be able to receive financial payment in return. Much like lets say in some freak accident you get a circumcision through an accident at a private building, say somehow or another that injury happens at a McDonalds play area, how much do you think the court would reward the injured party? Millions. So obviously there is a consencious that a circumcision is an injury that deserves financial compensation. Once more there is strong contrary debate on whether or not a fetus is a being. Second of all, I wouldn't even call circumcision harming anyone. At the very least I will call it a gift. Third, how the hell did you compare breaking an arm/leg/whatever to circumcision? Do you realize that your analogy made absolutely no sense? We are not talking about accidents either; this is intentional. And also, seeing as it takes over $400,000 dollars to raise a child, I do believe the money portion has been paid. Finally, you mentioned suing the hospital. Do you honestly think you can sue something in which your legal guardians at the time signed a consent form for the hospital to do? All you are thinking about is the very rare cases of people being unhappy with what they are. If the people who are circumcised don't care, yet the ones that aren't care, then why is it? It is not affecting you in any way at all. Lastly I would request the mods not to lock this thread as it is still debatable.

Israel. The country I know and love. :thumbsup:

I'm sorry, but are you being serious? Bastard should be happy he didn't get aborted. Lets always blame the parents. Yup. After everyone they had done for the child---raise him, feed him, cloth him,--- if his penis is not what he chose, lets blame the parents. I mean, there surely aren't more important things in life now, are there? I reserve the parents rights to abort him however once he is born I think that he holds all the rights to person and property as a human being afterall in the united states those are unalienable rights derived directly from God [according to the law]. So from what I understand Abortion-> Sure go ahead Circumcision-> NO DON'T TOUCH ME SUE SUE SUE Also, seeing as you do say law is derived directly from God, what about atheists? Would you say they are excerpt from this? Laws are not made by God, they are made by the people. Until someone is the legal age of 18, as the United State government says, the parents have custody and will know best for the child. Don't circumcise your kid, nobody is forcing you; however, don't talk for other people when circumcision at birth was the right choice and would have saved a lot of pain. In this case, the good outweigh the bad. Until you can give me statistics that say that the majority of people circumcised at birth are unhappy, and I will stay standing for the parents to do so to their children.

That gave me chills... Damn.

Yes, especially when you're talking about something as trivial as circumcisions. Want me to compare what I said in a previous post to something that would be on the same level of consideration as real human rights violations? Go tell me if you can compare circumcisions to people living in North Korea or Cuba or even Thailand.

I'm sorry, but are you being serious? Bastard should be happy he didn't get aborted. Lets always blame the parents. Yup. After everyone they had done for the child---raise him, feed him, cloth him,--- if his penis is not what he chose, lets blame the parents. I mean, there surely aren't more important things in life now, are there?

I have a paper due tomorro............ Syke! Just finished school today for the year!

so...you didn't get laid...? I did that time. Okay, DID. did. Do not make me start saying "did" in 20 languages. ANYWAY after her explaining she said shes just not ready to go into a relationship but still wants to be around me including the "fun stuff" we do. and you have a ...problem with this? You got yourself a sex buddy. What else do you need?

Very true, sorry mill. I kinda typed this up before I got 99 farm, and I just copied and pasted... yes gabe, you gave me a lot of donations and I thank you. I need farm assist