Obtaurian

High level worlds. I'd love that.

Well no, not the same. If Spiritual Mages are worse for cash than green dragons anyway, then it's not exactly worth the trouble so much, is it? That depends on how much you value Slayer experience. Do you not care about your Slayer level? Then no, spiritual mages are not worth it. If you answered yes, then the mages are worth far than dragons.

Please, dont compare the speeds of the dragon claw special and the magic combo. There is no comparison. As for the re-usability of the magic combo, I dont think it matters much because youre relying on the element of surprise with special attacks, which you dont have here. The dragon claws are so powerful though, that you dont even need the element of surprise with them anymore. Watch some fights in PvP worlds and then come back and talk to me. By the way, Compfreak dedicated a thread to how overpowered they were. Just letting you know so you can take that into consideration. It absolutely matters, because those special effects keep your opponent sweating. Magic doesn't need the element of surprise like melee and range do. Dragon Claws become useless when you can't get close enough to use them. I'm not saying that claws are underpowered, I'm saying that a warrior with claws will lose to a mage with ancients assuming they're on equal footing. Then the meleer runs to the nearest bank, drinks his anti, and grabs some more food so he can own people with overpowered special attacks. You havent done anything except waste your runes and waste a little of his food. But the warrior had to run away, thus proving that he could not stand up to a mage, no? Wrong, you cannot disregard this argument. Pure refers to using magic and melee only. Stats do not refer to purity. We were contrasting this pure discussion to a hybriding discussion, remember? The difference is both melee and mager are choosing to stick to their respective attacks, and this makes it a pure magic and melee fight. By pure, I did not mean only trains magic or trains only melee. Perhaps we misunderstood each other. Alright, I'll give you that. Both players are maxed then, one using pure melee one using pure mage? The dragon dagger only uses ¼ of the special bar, lol. That 1 fourth recharges very quickly. And the idea of poisoning a mage with a dagger is not silly, but thats just my point of view, =). No, the meleer would not be putting himself at a disadvantage in this case. But the fact still remains that by wasting a 1/4 of your special bar on a gamble that you might not even poison your opponent, you forfeit the ability to use two dragon claw specials or two AGS specials, which would be much more effective. However, we assume in this case that the warrior gets close enough to the mage to try that, which isn't likely. Thats so subjective that I wont even touch it with a 10 foot pole. Farcasting is one of magics greatest tools. Cost is absolutely a valid reason. Im looking to improve magic for the vast majority of the runescape population, not just the rich elite. What the hell kind of mindset would that be? And I'm looking to improve melee for the vast majority of the runescape population, not just the rich elite who can afford Godswords and Dragon Claws. You spend money to have an advantage. The same applies to a Zuriel's staff as much as it applies to Godswords. I didnt know banks and pking spots are for warrior and PJers only. Thats a ridiculous notion and one which I discard right off the bat. Pking with magic should be advantageous everywhere, just like melee and ranged pking are advantageous everywhere. Ive had plenty of good fights as ranged or melee near banks, and Ive also gotten plenty of good kills. Magic, not so. But they AREN'T advantageous everywhere! Pit a mage and a warrior against each other in Lletya and see what happens. The beauty of PVP worlds is that certain classes are better suited for certain terrains. It's something that the old wilderness sort of lacked. I would personally NEVER look for a fight near a bank. I know that I'm likely to get PJ'd, and I'm smart enough to avoid that. Ive provided plenty, thanks for asking. None that haven't been shot down. Im glad we agree on something, =) Comments in italics. Since we're now contrasting pure fights to hybrid fights, I figured we should establish the scenario. Player 1 Warrior Maxed stats The best gear possible (excluding PvP armor), so Barrows or Bandos. The best weapons possible, so claws, AGS, whip, defender, DFS. Player 2 Mage Maxed stats We could do the max mage gear, but I think that's a bit overkill, so we'll go with full Ahrim's w/ staff. Sounds reasonable, yes? Ancients. You've stated that an intelligent warrior will remove his armor to get rid of negative magic defense. We can assume that he now has a bit of magic defense due to wielding a fury, fire cape, etc. You've also stated that a warrior will patiently eat while frozen. When thawed, I assume that you intend for this warrior to charge the mage with a KO weapon? So here's the situation: The warrior charges, the mages freezes him and casts shadow/smoke spells, which also lower the warrior's strength by 5% every time Ahrim's set effect activates. The warrior begins to eat as the mage continues to lower his strength. When the warrior thaws, he charges with claws/AGS. Here's where it gets tricky. If we assume the mage was farcasting, the warrior will simply freeze again. If the mage was close enough for the warrior to land two specials, the mage leaves unscathed, as the warrior had an extremely low strength level and reduced attack. What if we take away the Ahrim's staff and throw in a Master Wand and Arcane Spirit Shield? Now the mage has huge melee defense and is extremely accurate. I don't see how this situation could be any worse for the warrior.

I would also like to address another comment you made a few posts back. You said that Zuriel's staff should not affect range. I agree with you. I'm curious to see what Compfreak thinks about that.

Magic does 32 max. It is NOT 50. Get that right. The warrior won't have a hard time getting close to the mage if he's not a complete idiot (He can take off his armor, after all, and he gains passive resistance to magic from training his own magic level (ROFL?) and using protect magic prayers. If you mention that this is bad advice and you'd just come up and melee me with your whip, then you'd be the own talking about hybriding. Checkmate. Also, what's stopping the mage being poisoned as well? 15% lowering of attack also isn't all that much. Zuriel's staff last 1 hour, if you're lucky enough not be killed with it in combat, and it costs 1.6m. Good lucky spending 1.6m on an hours worth of combat, excluding the cost of all the spells. All in all, how is magic NOT absurdly overpowered again? I'm not quite sure what your reasoning is anymore. Mage maxes around 50 with two hits. Melee maxes near 99 with FOUR hits, or about 76 with one hit, and both weapons lack special effects, giving mage the upper hand in a pure class fight. In a pure mage vs. pure warrior fight, the mage will win assuming both players are of equal intelligence. If the warrior takes his armor off, he will still be hit consistently. Negative defense bonuses are bad, but neutral defense bonuses aren't much better. The warrior can use mage protect and piety, but the mage can use melee protect (if need be) and magic might, thus evening things out. The mage will still have a huge advantage. If we're talking about hybriding, it becomes more complex, which I've stated multiple times. You also mention passive magic resistance. If this is a pure class fight, the warrior does not have a high magic level. What's stopping the mage being poisoned is the warrior's inability to get close enough to inflict it. 15% less attack is a huge amount. There's a reason that players spend so much money on super sets. Zuriels staff should only be used long enough to hit with one miasmic spell. Even so, we don't even need to bring it into the picture, as doing so would prove magic to be anything BUT underpowered. And come on... "checkmate?" Please.

I think what you don't realize is you're trying to justify magic's weak hit and its susceptibility to melee damage when melee does find a way to get up close to the mage (Very easy for them to do). You're looking at it from an itemization perspective, while I'm looking at it from a game mechanics perspective. It's either, "you need to make it more difficult for magic users to be hit with melee attacks" or "you need need to make mages hit harder so that the time the meleer actually spends frozen is meaningful." The mage+x hybrid isn't going to beat anything wearing ranged armor because it fails in keeping the opponents frozen for meaningful durations, and in those durations themselves the damage you do with magic is pitiful. Hence, my reasoning for increases in magic damage that occurs at the same rate as melee damage, and a toning down of the miasmic spells so that they don't effect ranged (Why the hell would Jagex WANT to give magic an advantage over ranged?) If the mage+x hybrid is using gear that is advantageous against the hybrid using range armor, the mage+x hybrid will win. If not, then he will lose. It's quite simple. I can argue that range is underpowered because a player in melee armor with a melee weapon and range weapon lost to a player with melee armor, melee weapon, and mage armor. How is that situation any different from your own? We can keep going and argue that melee is underpowered because player A is using this or that armor, etc, etc. Magic does a lower amount of damage (around 50) than melee (close to 99) because magic stacks special effects on top of that damage. Sure, the warrior can potentially KO the mage, but the problem is getting close to the mage while also dealing with the high damage he's taking, his lowered attack, poison, and the fact that the mage is healing. I wont even go into miasmic spells - that's just overkill. So how is magic absurdly underpowered again? I'm not quite sure what your reasoning is anymore. Would you like to continue arguing hybrid combinations? We can do that, I suppose, though I don't see how it's relevant to magic being underpowered. EDIT: To comment on your red text, I don't think it's right that a mage can wield a Godsword while maintaining a huge magic boost from his robes. All melee weapons should give huge negative magic attack bonuses to compensate. See what I did there?

The combat triangle works until you start bending it and hybriding, in which case magic loses out BIG TIME. If you thought this thread was about magers beating idiot meleers who wear rune, then you've been missing the point the whole time. This entire thread has been about the subject of hybrids. And you and and compfreak have been arguing with me about them for quite some time. If you want me to specify armor so you can get a better idea, here you go: Mager: Meleer: Okay, I think I understand this time. The topic of your title, "Magic is absurdly underpowered," implies that... magic is underpowered, and quite absurdly. Your argument is that a hybrid wearing mage robes, a few pieces of melee gear, and a mage weapon, will lose to a hybrid with range armor, a few pieces of melee gear, and a melee weapon. The problem is that your argument has nothing to do with mage being absurdly underpowered. All you're trying to prove is that so and so hybrid is weak against such and such hybrid. Well... yeah! When you're HYBRIDING, the situation becomes complex, and if your opponent happens to be carrying a combination of armor that gives him an edge over you, you very well could lose. In your situation, I would assume the mage/melee hybrid loses. Okay, so now that we've agreed on the outcome of that particular hybrid match up, what does it have to do with magic being absurdly underpowered? EDIT: Let me know when you've updated your original post. I'd like to reread it.

So you agree then that magic as a stand alone class is capable of beating a stand alone warrior and losing to a stand alone ranger, just as the combat triangle dictates? I wont argue the subject of hybrids, as we can go round and round for years trying to pit every teeny tiny combination against every other. Not only that, but you haven't given specific armors or weapons to either player, making this a guessing game on my behalf, and ultimately irrelevant to your original point. Speaking of which, you should edit your original post to accommodate your new argument.

First of all, sorry for the double post. Alright, I'm going to dissect everything now and present what should hopefully be my final argument. You contend in your original post that magic is underpowered as a stand alone combat skill. This entire discussion, you've argued that we have two players: Player 1 Melee armor Melee weapon Ranged armor Player 2 Mage armor Mage weapon Melee armor Correct? You say that Player 2 cannot beat Player 1, thus proving that mage is underpowered as a stand alone class. The (very, very obvious) problem is that neither of these players are using a single class, which you state in this post: So you're now arguing that a certain hybrid cannot beat another hybrid, which is NOT what your original post argued. As a PURE, STAND ALONE class, mage can beat melee, and cannot beat range. When we delve into the discussion of HYBRIDS, the situation becomes complex, as there are hundreds of different combinations of armor and weapons. So which is it? What are you arguing at this point? Are you still arguing that mage is underpowered as a stand alone class? How so? Are you arguing that Player 2 cannot beat Player 1 in your own example? If so, then you are absolutely right, and you have shown that in YOUR situation where one player is using a disadvantageous combination of armor and weapons, he will lose the fight.

I contend that an Armadyl Godsword is not a stand alone weapon, and that it is best used in conjunction with magic. I contend that a Dark Bow is not a stand alone weapon, and is best used in conjunction with blah blah blah blah. All items can be better used with other items. If your Dark Bow special doesn't knock em out, are you just gonna stand there and fire two shots every 4 seconds until it does? I sure hope not. I'm very curious as to what your point was with this... Magic CAN stand alone, but only against another stand alone combat class, assuming that class is melee. Similarly, ranged can stand alone, but only against magic. It's called the combat triangle, and it's pretty balanced at the moment. When we introduce hybrids, it becomes more complex. "Magic is not simply a crutch for Melee and Ranged to lean on." Took the words out of my mouth. EDIT: Why should I prove that one hybrid can or can't beat another hybrid? You haven't mentioned pure combat classes in this situation, making it irrelevant to the topic.

#1. If you're up in his face with a whip, and he's wearing Huta's ranged armor, you won't be forcing him to do anything. The hybrid using mage and melee will not beat the hybrid using melee and ranged. You're gimping yourself by using magic, essentially. #2. I don't think you understood what Huta said about Miasmic barrage. Discounting the fact that it's expensive and you would be hard pressed to take it with you into a PvP world, using Miasmic barrage and then using either Ranged or Melee would be far better than using Miasmic barrage and then magic. Magic is slow, and hits for a hell of a lot less. Miasmic barrage encourages hybridization rather than giving mages a skill which they can use to stand alone. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? #3. If you're fighting pure warriors, then you haven't really experienced real PvP. People will do anything they can to stay alive, and that includes bringing ranged armor. It's probably true, though, that a mage with miasmic barrage might beat a warrior with dragonhide. But as has been said, miasmic barrage would be far better combined with melee or ranged than with magic. You'd beat them to the ground twice as hard, since you're combining the slows with the specials of melee and ranged, respectively. #3. Pure mage and Pure range? Weren't we just talking about ultra-super-ninja hybrids, in which case everyone and their mother will be miasmic barraging you every minute or so? I thought you guys were advocating the point that you never see "pure classes" in "real" Runescape PvP worlds. Even if that matchup did occur, I would NOT be in favor of the mage winning. That would be overpowered. Mages need to be beaten by rangers; this is the way things work. If I had to make a change to miasmic barrage, I'd make sure it didn't effect ranged, and I'm still a little puzzled as to why it does. Interestingly enough, we now seem to be arguing PvP situations rather than the strength of the magic skill in comparison to range and melee. In this post, you've acknowledged that armor is considered class specific, and you've acknowledged the difference between hybrid vs. pure and hybrid vs. hybrid. Bravo! I have nothing left to argue, as I'm not very interested in arguing ridiculous circumstances. So that's it? You agree that mage is on par with range and melee?

I was kind of hoping for something a little more profound, but I like the guy nonetheless.

Use proselyte (pray melee), cannon, and the roundshield. Bring a few food items, use a bunyip if you need to, but I would recommend a combat familiar. I'd say ice trolls are one of the best slayer tasks. I really wish Duradel still assigned them.

When mining, I don't steal spots, but I will stubbornly defend mine. If someone comes along and tries to move in, I gladly take that as a challenge. I'll probably start mining in PvP worlds, just cause that'd be fun. With Slayer, however, if I see someone in a good cannon spot but they're not using a cannon, I'll just move in and take it. Before I used piety regularly, if someone crashed my spot, I would pot up, flick on piety, and attack all of their monsters till they left. I've only lost once. She had 99 melees and better gear. #-o

LUMBERJACK. That's badass. Can't wait to see it in April.

Lets consider your supposed blitz/barrage combo for a moment. You (mage) and a meleer are fighting. Naturally, hell be praying (And so will you), and every 10 seconds hell be able to reach you. When he gets to low health, youre going to try to pull off a blitz/barrage combo. Chances are, when youre far away, casting at him, hes going to be eating like a maniac. This is normally the way it works when you try to farcast someone in PvP. There will be far less instances for you to try to finish him then you might first assume. The advantage of melee and ranged specials is that they have the element of surprise. Once you back up and farcast, they start eating. Also, Id like to quote Huta in order to address the fundamental issue with incorporating miasmatic spells in your calculations (He is a respected tip-iter, no?): Thread link: viewtopic.php?f=66&t=773288&hilit=magic+combos&start=20 I'll address this part of your post. If the opponent that you're farcasting is in melee armor, you'll hit 30's and 20's in rapid succession while he attempts to eat in futility. If he's in range armor, you wont be farcasting, you'll be up in his face with a whip, forcing him to switch armor once again. When he succumbs and switches back to melee armor, you back up and throw another few 20's with mage. The hybrid using mage and melee weapon will beat the hybrid using melee and range armor. Miasmic barrage helps both mages and hybrids. If a pure mage is up against a pure warrior, the miasmic spell will render the warrior helpless. I'd call it overkill. If it's a hybrid match, the guy with miasmic spells will probably win. You know, I'd even say that a pure mage with miasmic barrage could potentially beat a ranger with little trouble, though I can't back that statement up. Compfreak will know more about it, I'm sure.

Updated with n00 achievements.

It does need to be changed. Magic and ranged both suffer penalties to their ATTACK BONUS by wearing plate but melee does not suffer penalties to its ATTACK BONUS by putting on dragonhide. This needs to be changed. Magic does not have a practical finishing move. It has something which doesn't even begin to compare to the specials ranged and melee dish out (The delay effect is what you're referring to, which I'm aware of through the use of mage only arena staking, which I used to do long ago). Read Compfreak's post. It IS practical, and with a little practice, not difficult to do. Not only does it hit high, but it has special effects which I'm sure you know by now. I apologize for having to BACK UP when I'm trying to do it, and I apologize for being pjed in the middle of my attempts. I also apologize for the fact that mine don't seem to do all that much damage in comparison to the 48-48 potential of dbow and the 80+ of melee. So silly of me. Eh? I always assumed that mages were advantageous at a distance. I would be backing up anyway if I were casting freezing spells to keep my opponent out of melee range. Why are you standing next to your opponent as you try to KO them with mage? Your magic KO does upwards of 50 damage while also having special effects, which your opponents do not have. Your PJ comment is irrelevant, as you shouldn't be fighting near spots that are known to be swarmed with PJers. Those are melee PKing spots.

It does need to be changed. Magic and ranged both suffer penalties to their ATTACK BONUS by wearing plate but melee does not suffer penalties to its ATTACK BONUS by putting on dragonhide. This needs to be changed. Magic does not have a practical finishing move. It has something which doesn't even begin to compare to the specials ranged and melee dish out (The delay effect is what you're referring to, which I'm aware of through the use of mage only arena staking, which I used to do long ago). Read Compfreak's post. It IS practical, and with a little practice, not difficult to do. Not only does it hit high, but it has special effects which I'm sure you know by now.

By switching to a whip, you're going to use it and magic in order to get the desired effect. Melee does not need to switch the way it attacks because it hit very hard and fast, and has bunch of ridiculous specials. The same goes for ranged, but apparently not for magic. You're not going to be hitting at all if you're up against another hybrid using mage/melee. If this is going to be your definition of hybrid, then why doesn't melee suffer penalties from putting dragonhide armor on when magic & ranged both suffer penalties from putting on plate armor? You shouldn't be the one to tell me how to hybrid. If I want to hybrid, I should be able to put on plate armor just like any other meleer, or meleers shouldn't be allowed to put on dragonhide without penalties. Please, tell me what's unfair about this. It doesn't need to be changed. By putting on range armor, you suffer having very low melee defense. You take the chance knowing your opponent might switch to melee gear. But, it's good to see that you finally agree that both armor and weapons count towards combat class. You're still dodging the fact that there are inconsistencies with in-game armor mechanics. Also, a ranger or meleer will do perfectly well with K0ing hybrid opponents because meleers and rangers hit very hard, fast and have specials designed to act as finishers. Magic cannot stand alone, I repeat. It has already been established that magic also has finishing moves. Magic also has special effects that freeze, heal you, lower attack, and poison. No combat class can stand alone against a hybrid.

You're confirming what I'm said earlier. You said mages now use a weapon and unleash a few melee hits to get them to switch armors/prayers and expose their weak spots in doing so. Great strat, I admit. But why does a meleer not have to do this? He can just keep right on using melee no matter what the situation is. [*:lhxbxho3]A meleer does not necessarily need to hybrid to succeed. [*:lhxbxho3]A ranger does not necessarily need to hybrid to succeed. [*:lhxbxho3]A mager will need to hybrid to succeed because his attacks are inadequate. Although I still don't agree with the concept of a hybriding mage because the thing that's hybriding is not a mage, but a meleer/ranger hybriding by using magic every once in a while. Also, the staff of Zuriel is discounted from the scenario because it's expensive, rare, and impractical. Dragonhide armor is very practical. THE "TOO LONG, DIDN'T READ" VERSION: Dragonhide armor needs to subtract from melee attack bonuses. This would be consistent, and it would also be fair. The meleer and ranger absolutely need to hybrid. We've already discussed that a meleer wearing dragonhide is hybriding. I dare you to find a meleer using pure melee gear and pit him against a hybrid. ANY hybrid. I dare you to find a ranger using pure range gear and pit him against a hybrid. ANY hybrid. Let's see what happens. [spoilerS] The hybrid wins. [/spoilerS]

Magic is perfect for hybriding as I said in my earlier post that you just ignored and put it off as nothing special. Wrong guy. :? He said magic is in invaluable for hybriding, which means it's practically necessary.

It seems like the entire argument going on here is based on the fact that you wont accept armor as relating to a combat class. Ydrasil posted a very good reason why it is class related on the previous page. I noticed that you did not respond to that point, nor did you respond to the fact that mages have HIGHER slash defense than rangers! Mages use melee weapons as support because unlike the other combat classes, they don't have to be wielding their class specific weapon to do damage. Their robes give them a huge boost, and as pureprayer said, they hit you a couple times with melee to force you to drop your mage defense.

Mages have higher slash defense than rangers. Goodnight. EDIT: My name is the name of the second Opeth album, which at the time was my favorite one. :)

I'll quote an earlier post of mine to explain why (By the way, I really gotta go to sleep now): Oh, I see. So the best solution is to take away armor, is it not? Weapons only. I don't agree with you that the type of damage being dealt indicates the class being used, but we can compromise here by taking away the armor! So one player using a whip vs another player using a staff or wand, correct? Wow. Seems pretty clear cut to me.