Alphanos

I'm surprised that everyone is so convinced that any EULA is the be-all end-all of the matter. You know that just because a company writes terms and conditions, that doesn't necessarily make them legal, right? Obviously from past court examples there would need to be an overwhelming argument from the player's side, since it's difficult to get a court to rule for an individual against a company, but it's certainly possible. Even if players agree to the terms, there are some contractual terms that cannot be legally agreed to, and get invalidated by courts.

The above is an excellent reason to avoid linking things like a Facebook account to a Runescape account. Although I understand their marketing incentive, it is irresponsible for Jagex to advocate these connections, security-wise. Regarding the effect on the rate market, any actual effect will be solely due to unfounded panic. Most estimates have put the lost items at closer to 200 billion, but more importantly these items weren't in the market to begin with. The player who lost the items was well-known to hoard rares, not putting them back into the market. If anything, her newfound lack of wealth should decrease demand for rares, since if she should return to Runescape it will take her much longer to resume acquiring and hoarding rares. I don't know the exact means used by the perpetrators to gain the relevant recovery answers for the account in question. Maybe the account's owner really is partially to blame for connecting Runescape and social networking accounts, but many players do this, and Jagex is now encouraging it. If Jagex proposes recovery questions that could be answered by i.e. viewing the account holder's Facebook page, and also encourages players to associate their Runescape and social networking accounts, doesn't that place at least some of the responsibility on them?

This is semantics. Property doesn't need to be physical things, and can certainly be values in a database. Corporations often have millions, or even billions of dollars in intangible property, such as patents, copyrights, trademarks, etc. As for Jagex's right to do whatever they want with the intangible property, I agree 100% that this is stated in the EULA that we all must agree to in order to play the game. However, I'm sure that when this agreement was written, nobody expected that players' virtual wealth could be valued at hundreds of thousands of dollars in real life cash. Again, this is not in support of RWTing, but merely pointing out that capitalism has supplied formulae by which virtual items can have real-life value estimated and assigned to them. In light of this, I would hope that the courts would rule that the player had some legitimate claim to their virtual possessions.

I acknowledge your points and I have no answer in those cases. However, in this case - and I quote Mod Mark H - "As soon as we became aware of the situation we acted quickly banning the hijacker's accounts as well as removing any items & wealth stolen. " - which means they had the information they needed to return the items. There would be no duping in this case. But instead of returning them, they removed them forever. If Mod Mark H had hidden behind "terms of service" then that would be different. But he didn't - he wrapped himself in the code of law. The victim in question should have recourse to recover those items from Jagex if Jagex is going to use that same law to seize them from the hijacker. Items taken as a result of hacking can't be stolen when it is convenient for Jagex and not stolen when it isn't. I agree completely. If Jagex doesn't reconsider, I think that Chessy018 should sue Jagex over this. Early discussions on the matter estimated her bank to be worth well over $100,000 in real life cash. Although I agree with Jagex's policy against RWT, I think the prevailing black market rates give at least a minimum figure of those items' value to her. It's true that Jagex doesn't have the manpower to investigate all claimed cases of item loss, and though unfair even in general, in aggregate their existing policy provides the most benefit to the most players. This is considering how many fewer updates, etc, we'd get if they were expending so much manpower on lost item claims. However that general situation doesn't hold true for this specific case, as stated, because they already used the manpower to resolve a high-profile case, so no additional resource expenditure is needed to return Chessy's items. This is like the police having a policy where they can't reimburse everyone for stolen property, since in many cases the property can't be found or the perpetrators can't be tracked down. However, in this specific case, they caught the thieves, have the goods in a pile at the police station, and when Chessy shows up asking for the items, they instead set them on fire while informing her they can't be bothered to return stolen property. The magnitude of the unfairness here is unbelievable.

To put thing into perspective, here's the total amount of experience required for the following capes, assuming no overages: Cape Experience Required 10 Cape: 28,850 20 Cape: 111,750 30 Cape: 334,075 40 Cape: 930,600 50 Cape: 2,533,325 60 Cape: 6,843,550 Any Skillcape: 13,034,431 70 Cape: 18,440,675 80 Cape: 49,651,700 90 Cape: 133,658,300 Maxed Cape: 325,860,775 Uber Cape: 417,099,510

They didn't write it.

I do want to reiterate here that after Runescape having run for 10+ years, not one single player has the experience to be 120-maxed. In fact, none of them are even particularly close. IMO, there should at least be some players close to achieving this before considering any further. There were hundreds of maxed players (pre-Dungeoneering) asking for months/years for a maxed cape, and only now is Jagex even considering a primarily decorative item to recognize an existing in-game achievement. Do you really think they're ready to give out an extra 21 levels in Attack/Strength/Defense/Ranged/Magic, etc?

Trying to be more charitable, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that if the QA team teamed up and did a 5-10 man test run on Corp, they might not have noticed anything. Maybe they would have got an arcane or spectral sigil, and thought "looks good". I doubt Jagex has enough QA staff to put together a 40-50 man mass, and the stacking nature of the ROW bug meant that you needed a lot of players to get the craziness that we've all seen on youtube. You're all making it sound like anyone going to Corp had back-to-back sigil drops, or even any teams, but the explanation we've been given is that the effect was quite small for small teams of players, and thus not highly noticeable.

No, this is not even close to being needed. At the time of writing, there are 301 maxed players in all of Runescape. I can't be bothered to look it up, but I believe that another thread had figures showing there are somewhere in the neighbourhood of 8 million at least semi-active Runescape accounts (including F2P of course). Even if we only look at the 2 million listed in the high scores, that means raising the level cap would be catering to 301/2,000,000 = 0.015% of players. These are the only players who can even begin to claim that they've exhausted the existing content in Runescape, and of course this doesn't consider the many possible minigame goals - just as one example, getting the high-level Castle Wars armour is no small undertaking. If you are not maxed but you want more high-level content anyway - what reason is there exactly to make it above level 99? We have plenty of skills which need to be revised even at low levels, such as smithing, before Jagex should even begin to worry about adding level 100+ content. Once everything's in good shape at the levels which the majority of players can actually play, then they can take the time to ensure there's room for growth at the top. I would guess this should happen five or more years from now, at the earliest. Additionally, arguments about how experience rates are now 2x faster don't justify an 8x increase in the amount of experience which has practical use. Maxing should be a very difficult, but at least potentially achievable goal. If maxing takes 2.5 billion+ experience, Runescape would become a game that is essentially impossible to "complete". Only one player even has that much experience after 10 years of Runescape running, and much of it is in easy/quick skills rather than distributed among the harder ones as 120 maxing would require. If anyone has a figure worked out from the 200M all skills thread for how many hours it would take to reach 200M all skills, that would be helpful. In this case, it would take half that amount of time to achieve 120 maxed status. Bear in mind that around 2,000 hours is equivalent to working a full-time job for a year, and I'm pretty sure the 200M all figure was well over 10,000 hours....

[/hide] So they are NOT PROMISING that anything will actually come of this, but this update was in preparation for maybe some day making smithing worthwhile if they get around to it. Never mind that the update is garbage, because some guy who can't do math thinks it's competitive. Re-examing the XP/cost of adamant ceremonial swords using their figures: 40 swords per hour, average 105% score: 240k XP/hr, 11.4 GP/XP. 50 swords per hour, average 105% score: 300k XP/hr, 11.4 GP/XP. My original figures for sword smithing: ~200k XP/hr, ~14 GP/XP Adamant platebody smithing: ~255k XP/hr, ~10.8 GP/XP Adamant platebody smithing, with SC hammers and a scroll of efficiency: ~197 XP/hr, ~5 GP/XP (Platebody smithing figures courtesy of Grimy's spreadsheets) It should be noted that to get the experience given by a 105% score you need to take the maximum experience for that sword type, in this case 6873, multiply by 5/6 to bring it from 120% back to 100%, and then multiply by 1.05. I am also assuming that their stated average of 105% score includes the 0% cases caused by breakages, or that perhaps with 99 smithing breakages no longer occur. If this is incorrect, then the rates based on their figures are too optimistic. The 40 swords per hour rate would be roughly equivalent to standard adamant platebody smithing, although still much inferior to smithing using sacred clay hammers unless you have enormous piles of cash. The 50 swords per hour rate becomes at least more arguable; in comparison to sacred clay hammer smithing of adamant platebodies, you're trading an extra ~2.4M cash per hour in exchange for an extra 100k experience per hour. If you really do have that much money to spare, and can get that good, then it could be a good training method. It could be that I'm actually not very good at the sword smithing, or that it really is possible to get ~50% better with more practice. I assume that Jagex's figures were produced by testing using a 99 smithing account; maybe this improves success rates a great deal. I'm skeptical however; I'm not the only one who found much worse rates than this. A thread on RSOF (QFC: 15-16-347-62513440) shows experience and cost rates almost identical to my originally posted figures. In other words, this method of smithing might be more useful for the players spending billions to get 200M all skills, if they can also smith these swords 50% faster than the average semi-serious player. But if Jagex thought it would be better for the average player, they got their math very wrong. Edit: they say the respect rewards mainly exist to incentivize players to use it instead of more traditional smithing. I'd be willing to at least give it a shot if they would allow sacred clay hammers to be used on ceremonial sword smithing. Whatever horrible imbalance they thought this would cause, I think examination of the math shows that it would merely give the new area a fighting chance in efficiency for the most skilled/fastest players.

Anyone debating whether it would be good/bad to have faster training has missed the facts: this update provides slower, more expensive training. Jagex hasn't yet provided an update with faster smithing training. If one is released, discuss it then :P. Edit: I never checked into mithril ceremonial swords. However, looking around, a thread on RSOF (QFC: 15-16-347-62513440) indicates that mithril ceremonial swords are slower, but cheaper experience compared to mithril platebodies. Personally I smelted gold from 80 -> 89. Edit 2: Apparently doing mithril platebodies is actually almost the same price, and still faster, once you include the scroll of efficiency and sacred clay hammers.

Please enlighten me on this. 500k exp per hour during 2x weekend seems too good to be true. When I was making steel plates, I managed 2400 bars used per hour. So, that would only be 162k exp on addy plates. The figures on previously-existing training methods come from Grimy's spreadsheets. His figures indicate the capability to use up to 4090 bars per hour. Although that's most likely an upper limit, 2400 bars per hour does seem quite substantially lower. Not sure what to tell you; where were you smithing? Were you also chatting while smithing? Etc. Varrock west bank. I didn't figure in using a best of burden, however Since the figures you're asking about weren't mine, I've posted on Grimy's thread to ask if there are any particular techniques/tricks used to achieve that rate of platebody production. Hopefully he'll have the info we're wondering about :).

Please enlighten me on this. 500k exp per hour during 2x weekend seems too good to be true. When I was making steel plates, I managed 2400 bars used per hour. So, that would only be 162k exp on addy plates. The figures on previously-existing training methods come from Grimy's spreadsheets. His figures indicate the capability to use up to 4090 bars per hour. Although that's most likely an upper limit, 2400 bars per hour does seem quite substantially lower. Not sure what to tell you; where were you smithing? Were you also chatting while smithing? Etc.

[hide=Copy-paste from my post on the update thread] You must use a normal hammer. Assuming ore prices remain on average similar to the past, adamant ceremonial swords are roughly 10gp/xp based on experience figures in the knowledge base. Hopefully either the experience figures I'm using are incorrect (i.e. this new thing about one-time bonuses can be gotten semi-frequently?), or the experience per hour is much higher than existing methods. If neither of these things are true, then it may still be more efficient to smith adamant platebodies with sacred clay hammers. Even if it isn't what we were hoping for, Jagex has clearly gone to a lot of effort with this, so it'd be a shame for it to turn into the next charm sprites. I have bad news. Even as a new training method, this area appears very deficient. I first taught myself how to quickly make ceremonial swords decently well using a bunch of iron ingots. I'm sure with more practice it's possible to get better, but not substantially so. I then used 20 adamant ingots to make adamant ceremonial swords. This took me half an hour, earned me 97,655 experience, and cost approximately 1.37M at average historical market prices (not current extra-high prices). This places the experience at around 200k xp/hr, and the cost at about 14 gp/xp. It turns out earlier figurse of 10 gp/xp were too optimistic, based upon achieving perfect swords every time, with no breakages. Straight-up smithing adamant platebodies, with no bonuses, gives about 250k xp/hr at about 12 gp/xp. Using sacred clay hammers and a scroll of efficiency, adamant platebodies would give the same experience as ceremonial swords, but at only 5.6 gp/xp. (Figures courtesy of Grimy's spreadsheets). So in other words, not only did this update fail to provide the smithing revamp everyone has been asking for, but it provides training which is inferior in every way to already-existing content. Unfortunately, you're looking at the new charm sprites :(. [/hide] I'm sure that the experts on this thread can manage more XP, and faster, than I did. However, I'd still be very surprised if it turns out better than previously-existing methods. Maybe there's some value to be salvaged from unexpectedly-good runite ceremonial swords? But I doubt it. I haven't tried the update yet, only read the news article. I imagine you didn't count making adamant ingots (I think they are like bars and can't be bought from a dwarf) which means they are even lower than 200k :( Making adamant ingots is actually fairly instant. The machine just fills your inventory, it's not like smelting. Of course you also get no experience for making ingots.

Unless Jagex decides to classify the rewards as XP Boosters, in which case they'd take the place of the bonus xp boost. Which more or less screws over anyone who's bought the rewards so far. Plus as my figures show on page 7, adamant ceremonial swords cost more than adamant platebody smithing, for less experience. That's not even taking into account things like sacred clay hammers or the scroll of efficiency.

[hide=Copy-paste from my post on the update thread] You must use a normal hammer. Assuming ore prices remain on average similar to the past, adamant ceremonial swords are roughly 10gp/xp based on experience figures in the knowledge base. Hopefully either the experience figures I'm using are incorrect (i.e. this new thing about one-time bonuses can be gotten semi-frequently?), or the experience per hour is much higher than existing methods. If neither of these things are true, then it may still be more efficient to smith adamant platebodies with sacred clay hammers. Even if it isn't what we were hoping for, Jagex has clearly gone to a lot of effort with this, so it'd be a shame for it to turn into the next charm sprites. I have bad news. Even as a new training method, this area appears very deficient. I first taught myself how to quickly make ceremonial swords decently well using a bunch of iron ingots. I'm sure with more practice it's possible to get better, but not substantially so. I then used 20 adamant ingots to make adamant ceremonial swords. This took me half an hour, earned me 97,655 experience, and cost approximately 1.37M at average historical market prices (not current extra-high prices). This places the experience at around 200k xp/hr, and the cost at about 14 gp/xp. It turns out earlier figurse of 10 gp/xp were too optimistic, based upon achieving perfect swords every time, with no breakages. Straight-up smithing adamant platebodies, with no bonuses, gives about 250k xp/hr at about 12 gp/xp. Using sacred clay hammers and a scroll of efficiency, adamant platebodies would give the same experience as ceremonial swords, but at only 5.6 gp/xp. (Figures courtesy of Grimy's spreadsheets). So in other words, not only did this update fail to provide the smithing revamp everyone has been asking for, but it provides training which is inferior in every way to already-existing content. Unfortunately, you're looking at the new charm sprites :(. [/hide] I'm sure that the experts on this thread can manage more XP, and faster, than I did. However, I'd still be very surprised if it turns out better than previously-existing methods. Maybe there's some value to be salvaged from unexpectedly-good runite ceremonial swords? But I doubt it.

You must use a normal hammer. Assuming ore prices remain on average similar to the past, adamant ceremonial swords are roughly 10gp/xp based on experience figures in the knowledge base. Hopefully either the experience figures I'm using are incorrect (i.e. this new thing about one-time bonuses can be gotten semi-frequently?), or the experience per hour is much higher than existing methods. If neither of these things are true, then it may still be more efficient to smith adamant platebodies with sacred clay hammers. Even if it isn't what we were hoping for, Jagex has clearly gone to a lot of effort with this, so it'd be a shame for it to turn into the next charm sprites. I have bad news. Even as a new training method, this area appears very deficient. I first taught myself how to quickly make ceremonial swords decently well using a bunch of iron ingots. I'm sure with more practice it's possible to get better, but not substantially so. I then used 20 adamant ingots to make adamant ceremonial swords. This took me half an hour, earned me 97,655 experience, and cost approximately 1.37M at average historical market prices (not current extra-high prices). This places the experience at around 200k xp/hr, and the cost at about 14 gp/xp. It turns out earlier figures of 10 gp/xp were too optimistic, based upon achieving perfect swords every time, with no breakages. Straight-up smithing adamant platebodies, with no bonuses, gives about 250k xp/hr at about 12 gp/xp. Using sacred clay hammers and a scroll of efficiency, adamant platebodies would give the same experience as ceremonial swords, but at only 5.6 gp/xp. (Figures courtesy of Grimy's spreadsheets, and including the time to get the hammers). So in other words, not only did this update fail to provide the smithing revamp everyone has been asking for, but it provides training which is inferior in every way to already-existing content. Unfortunately, you're looking at the new charm sprites :(.

You must use a normal hammer. Assuming ore prices remain on average similar to the past, adamant ceremonial swords are roughly 10gp/xp based on experience figures in the knowledge base. Hopefully either the experience figures I'm using are incorrect (i.e. this new thing about one-time bonuses can be gotten semi-frequently?), or the experience per hour is much higher than existing methods. If neither of these things are true, then it may still be more efficient to smith adamant platebodies with sacred clay hammers. Even if it isn't what we were hoping for, Jagex has clearly gone to a lot of effort with this, so it'd be a shame for it to turn into the next charm sprites.

Has anybody checked yet to see if sacred clay hammers work (give their bonus XP) for the new smithing activities?

Not much more reasonable than the herbs. Nope.

That's probably just due to the excess of woodcutting bots outranking him. His adventurer's log shows he has level 62 woodcutting. Edit: Oops, I was too slow :P.

I wonder how many hours this would actually take and how much money you'd make. No one would be ever stupid enough to do it but I'm curious... Math people? Assuming everything buys and sells at mid, 4 cballs is 1192-824 for the steel bar = 368 profit each 25.6 xp. About 7.3m steel bars are needed from 99 to 200m smithing which is 29.2m cannonballs. Making the total profit from 200m smithing just a tiny bit under 2.7b. Wow I dont do math much :P I dont know how all you math guys make those calcs, would drive my head crazy. Edit: Didnt noticed you asked hours too. I dont know exactly how fast they make but I wouldnt think its more than 20k smithing xp an hour. So my guess is around 10,000 hours which is insane :blink: According to Grimy's smithing sheet, cannonballs are produced at a rate of 517 steel bars processed per hour. If you started directly from level 99 smithing, it would take 14,126 hours to reach 200M experience from cannonballs. That's equivalent to 7 years of working the hours of a full-time job.

Since you asked, I've gone ahead and replied to your posting :). [/hide] 1) Obviously RWT is bad but the consumer isn't the evil one i dont think. if RWT didnt create bots then id literally have no problem with it, i mean who cares? if bots didnt exist RWT would be absolutely fine. i mean we know it does create bots but this player was obviously very young. as are most of the players who play runescape, come on guys its a kids game. all games are kids games. adults are not meant to have the time for extreme gaming like kids do, almost every game is marketed at kids (11-19ish). please dont expect people in runescape to act like 30 year olds, that would be too weerd if everyone playing runescape was 30. hell i personally have a problem with parents playing runescape. anyway point being, she was obviously young and doesnt know about the rule, i mean its not excactly obvious unless you play a lot and come on forums like this. its easy for us forum users to forget that some of the stuff we all think is obvious, in actual fact, is not. so she was young, i have to assume didnt know it was against the rules as she was talking openly and unprovoked, she got scammed for real money which might well have been her pocket money.. and THEN some jumped up wanna be mod over zealous character reports her.. hmm.. what a great day for her. 2) i think it was unprovoked. Since none of us were there with the OP, much of this is speculation without a chat log. However, I can agree that since this individual was openly talking about the matter, maybe they really didn't know it was against the rules. Depending on the scenario, maybe I would have discussed it that way with them. However I don't want to judge the OP without having been there - for all I know the person RWTing talked about it in those terms, signifying understanding, or talked about doing it multiple times. Players do have to indicate that they've read and understand the rules before they can register an account. It's also possible (maybe more like probable) that lots of players, including that one, just click through without actually reading. There are consequences to agreeing to terms you don't understand, not just online but in real life. From what I've heard so far, I don't think the player should be banned. But they do need to be made aware that RWTing can get them banned. Without having been in the situation, I'm not in a position to judge whether the player just needed a heads up, or whether they were unrepentant and needed to be reported. Also, it should be pointed out again that reported does not equal banned. Jagex has a complicated system of black marks, etc etc, which they've spent a fair bit of time developing. They have a vested interest themselves in keeping paying members online, while still upholding the rules. However, if everyone doesn't report for fear of getting someone banned, it just means that all rule-breaking will continue unhindered. It's a good thing you're reading this thread, because you should be aware that in real life, casually discussing breaking real life laws can easily result in real life consequences. In all seriousness, you can get arrested depending on what you're doing and what you say about it. Reporting criminal activity is not anything like Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany, if you expressed that you thought some laws were bad and should be changed, you could be in real trouble. In a normal society living by the rule of law, you can get in trouble for actually breaking those laws, but typically not for discussing hoped-for changes. Regarding account sharing and gold trading, there are two primary reasons why they are against the rules. These same reasons apply to botting as well, actually. 1) Fairness: If each player has to achieve their own levels, gold, etc, it establishes an even playing field. I can understand the desire to get some of these things more easily, but it's not fair to other players. In a single player game it's easy to say it doesn't matter because it only affects how you play the game, but that isn't true for an MMORPG like Runescape. Other players do affect you all the time, in bossing/crashing, PvP, duelling, clan wars, and so on. 2) Monetary Incentive: If Jagex can eliminate, or at least reduce, things like RWTing, account sharing, and botting, it eliminates/reduces the monetary incentive for companies to get involved, which results in many problems. We saw the drastic effects of this first-hand with the elimination of the Wilderness a few years back. For those who don't remember or didn't read it at the time, the major driving force there was that these groups were paying for Runescape membership with stolen credit card information. When the legitimate owners of those cards called their credit companies to dispute the charges, Jagex was slapped with fees and a lot of paperwork, and was basically told that if they couldn't stop the large number of bogus charges they were applying to so many stolen cards, the credit companies would stop letting people pay for Runescape membership. Jagex believes they can avoid the same situation now, for reasons I don't believe they've fully disclosed to us, but with the Wilderness and free trade back, it's even more important than ever to reduce some of these activities. I agree that the example you're referring to, of a mute being given for saying "Give me your password I'll scam you", is ridiculous. It should be obvious to anyone that was a joke. At least for my part, if I see someone i.e. swearing in a public place in Runescape I pay it no attention. However I will report if I see people trying to get others to visit a phishy website, or trying to get people to give out their passwords, etc. Cases like the OP's situation are quite rare; most players who do such things are smart enough to realize it's a bad idea to admit to RWTing or botting. In real life, there are some things that can get you in trouble if you're overheard saying them in public; things relating to various crimes. It's the same in Runescape, just with different crimes that are less serious than their real-world counterparts. If you want to replicate a situation where you hang out privately with your friends and chat about whatever, you can use a clan chat for that :). no report abuse button would be ridiculous, but save it for the gold farmers, bots and hackers. personally i dont think scamming is bad. eermm i think reporting people all the time is showing no respect for others. i see no reason why saying u rwt is not showing respect for others. quite the opposite it shows u wanna talk and communicate. runescape without player mods was fine. ive never seen anyone get told off by a player mod, personally, and ive played 100 days on my account. it also cant be that protective because u report someone for somethign that has already occurred. it may hinder them. but i doubt this girl considered buying gold again. also i disagree on p mods having respect for others. i was friends with 3 orginal p mods, they were arogant as! in fact i personally know one of them botted high level fishing. i think make mods for banning bots. you ban the bots, you stop the gold farming, you stop the problem cause by rwt and it doesnt matter if it happens. I have to admit I find it somewhat surreal that you think reporting abuse shows a lack of respect, while scamming does not. We agree regarding removing the bots, at least. You make an excellent point about getting to the root of the problem. In case you're not aware, Jagex has indicated in the past that they see the same value. If they get reliable information about RWTing, they most likely use it to track down the actual gold farmers/sellers and eventually make their move once they have all the details. Past Jagex postings have indicated that they've chosen to operate this way before, so a simple report by the OP could actually result in a gold farming ring being taken down. Since we're talking about XBox Live gamer cards it's not too likely, but this kind of thing can be important. A more plausible scenario is that they could track down the guy who wanted the XBox Live card, and by banning him prevent him from scamming others $30 at a time.

Presumption of innocence is one thing, and something that I definitely support. I often see people reporting others for "botting" if they don't answer in chat, and I tell those people that failing to chat is no proof of botting. It's something else entirely to twist presumption of innocence into a presumption that all confessions of wrongdoing are lies, and that any time sometime admits to doing something wrong we should ignore them. [/hide] i give people the benefit of the doubt that they are being sarcastic, joking, or trolling. don't see how that's a problem. please address my other points. Honestly it appeared to me that your only point was that we should ignore confessions of wrongdoing under the assumption that people are lying/joking. I don't think that's a sensible policy if the context indicates it isn't a joke. If you had other points that I missed, I apologize, please point them out to me and I will do my best to reply. 1) Obviously RWT is bad but the consumer isn't the evil one i dont think. if RWT didnt create bots then id literally have no problem with it, i mean who cares? if bots didnt exist RWT would be absolutely fine. i mean we know it does create bots but this player was obviously very young. as are most of the players who play runescape, come on guys its a kids game. all games are kids games. adults are not meant to have the time for extreme gaming like kids do, almost every game is marketed at kids (11-19ish). please dont expect people in runescape to act like 30 year olds, that would be too weerd if everyone playing runescape was 30. hell i personally have a problem with parents playing runescape. anyway point being, she was obviously young and doesnt know about the rule, i mean its not excactly obvious unless you play a lot and come on forums like this. its easy for us forum users to forget that some of the stuff we all think is obvious, in actual fact, is not. so she was young, i have to assume didnt know it was against the rules as she was talking openly and unprovoked, she got scammed for real money which might well have been her pocket money.. and THEN some jumped up wanna be mod over zealous character reports her.. hmm.. what a great day for her. 2) i think it was unprovoked. 3) yeah in a case like this, in face i thinkn in most cases. 'rules are made to be broken'. IRL i break laws everyday, constantly lol. i want to be able to talk about breaking laws without fear of someone telling on me. thats like living in nazi germany, with the kids telling on their own parents! (lol well not quite but you know..) i really don't like how you conclude that this is a juvenile rebellion thought process.. i dont know if i can say this, if i cant please delete. but many of my old accounts i shared with my brother, i saw, still very muich see, nothing wrong with it. it wasnt trying to be cool or rebel it was just a nice bonding experience, half the grinding for the same levels. the one thing was having friends i thought might report me. that was alright, i just only haad 2 friends i trusted. i also bought some gold from a player who hadnt farmed it (how do i know? he was a famous pker) at the time i wasnt aware it was against the rules, i saw on a forum that actually let u discuss these kinds of things (mayhem makers) he was selling, id always find it hard so i bought some. i dont see that as that bad. tbf that account got banned for autotyping in w2. i see no problem with any of these things and id like to think i could talk to people on rs about them. if thats not allowed can you just delete that paragraph? anyway end of the day, reporting one unluckly girl solves absolutely nothing. if she gets banned it does nothing, all it does is ruin the time someone put into the account. i see at as a malicious thing to do. especially if she was young n the OP is like 30 something.. already said it but.. i would rather an unstable economy than to not say what i want, this isn't just about this one rule, offensive language is another good example. wanna be mods look for trouble, ruin the atmosphere, cause people to not be able to say wat they want in public places for fear of being reported and just generally [cabbage] on everything. i would rather everyone was a bot than to have wanna be mods all over the place. another post is someone being muted for saying, give me your password ill scam you. its the same kind of argument i think. anyway i hate you wanna be mods. no report abuse button would be ridiculous, but save it for the gold farmers, bots and hackers. personally i dont think scamming is bad. eermm i think reporting people all the time is showing no respect for others. i see no reason why saying u rwt is not showing respect for others. quite the opposite it shows u wanna talk and communicate. runescape without player mods was fine. ive never seen anyone get told off by a player mod, personally, and ive played 100 days on my account. it also cant be that protective because u report someone for somethign that has already occurred. it may hinder them. but i doubt this girl considered buying gold again. also i disagree on p mods having respect for others. i was friends with 3 orginal p mods, they were arogant as! in fact i personally know one of them botted high level fishing. i think make mods for banning bots. you ban the bots, you stop the gold farming, you stop the problem cause by rwt and it doesnt matter if it happens. also come oonn dude, talking about peedos now eh? thats just unbeleivably stupid. if u think a player reporting someone would stop the possibility of a peedo. its such a small minority but put urself in the mindset, they groom people by getting to know. in runescapes case beiung friends witht them. it is downright stupid to think no report button would create more incidents like this(to which i was unaware). GOD i hate peedos! but yeah, facebook, msn etc are much better ways for peedos. i guess this guy just like to gain levels while he groomed.. (lol? no? .. ) point is you ripm the head of a flower it survives, u kill the root the flower never grows. in this case the OP is trying to kill a flower for no reason, it will nto do anything, only add insult to injury. i wouldve thought you 'mature' players would see that. (oh except your not mature because you spend hours on a kids game) <3: [/hide] You fall outside the grouping I made; you do seem to believe that RWT should be allowed. I disagree with you of course, but that's an entirely different conversation. Since you've implied that you're uncomfortable with adults, I won't push you to discuss it further.

Presumption of innocence is one thing, and something that I definitely support. I often see people reporting others for "botting" if they don't answer in chat, and I tell those people that failing to chat is no proof of botting. It's something else entirely to twist presumption of innocence into a presumption that all confessions of wrongdoing are lies, and that any time someone admits to doing something wrong we should ignore them.