Soma2035

... so how is it represented then? Player 1 has 94 prayer, Player 2 has 95 and thus turmoil. Where's the representation of Turmoil? How to I distinguish Player 1 from Player 2 without stat spy or looking at the high scores?

No, it isn't the point. You have distorted the topic so much that you are now claiming that gaining Turmoil as 0 effect on your combat level, when actually... In REALITY it does. To achieve turmoil you have to gain 6/7 combat levels, the lack of a combat level gained in 94-95 is completely redundant. You still need to gain several combat levels to get to 94. Not gaining a level for the last level needed has nothing to do with this thread, it is just a bad attempt at justifying why extremes are just as fair as turmoil. They are not. Are you telling me there's no one that's 94 prayer? Go look at the high scores, then come try this again. There are people with 94 prayer out there, and those people do not have Turmoil. If they gain a level, they could potentially have turmoil. There is no combat level increase to represent this change. That is not a distortion of this topic in any way. People with 94 prayer exist just like people with 70 herblore exist. Getting Turmoil has no more of a combat effect than getting Overloads. I fail to see any distortion whatsoever.

But 70-94 prayer is quite a difference (6 combat levels). THAT is why it is represented in your combat level. But 94-95 prayer is the difference between no turmoil and turmoil, which is the point. Player 1 and Player 2 have the same Attack, Strength, Defense, Magic, Ranged, Constitution, and Summoning. One of them has 94 prayer, one of them has 95. Both of them have done the quest, therefore one has Turmoil, the other does not. There is no way to tell which is which looking at combat levels. Even if you could look at fractions of combat levels, there is no difference, because the prayer level that sets no turmoil and turmoil apart is completely dropped. It doesn't exist as far as the combat formula is concerned, only even-numbered prayer and summoning levels do. Until this single prayer level that turns no turmoil into turmoil is shown, it is the same as Extremes - combat level has no indication of it. The combat level formula ignores all odd summoning and prayer levels. Basically, for every 2 levels of prayer or summoning, your combat increase by 0.25 (or the whereabouts, not sure of the exact number), which results in 8 levels equating to one combat level. However, 1 level of prayer does not increase your combat by 0.125. It simply has no effect unless you add a second level of prayer. You can not even combine it with a level of summoning - 95 prayer and 99 summoning with maxed other stats yields 137 CB, while 96 prayer and 98 summoning yields 138 CB. Odd prayer levels do not factor into your combat level in any way, so you can NEVER notice the gap between no-turmoil (94) and turmoil (95) by looking at their combat level, even if you could see fractions of a level.

He still need 95 prayer to use turmoil. If he needed only smithing levels, that would be another story. With herblore, and extreme potions, there's absolutely no way of telling before, during or after a fight if they were used. Several things wrong with that. 1) Telling before and after the fight is easy. First of all, an Overload has a little tell-tale stream of 100s. Second of all, if he potted before the fight, a quick stat spy shows you their CB stats. Third of all, a hit higher than what's possible without extremes/overloads is an obvious giveaway. 2) 95 prayer is not shown in combat. 95 prayer will NEVER have an effect on your combat level over 94 prayer.

Wrong. Very wrong. First of all, odd prayer levels are NEVER represented in combat. 96 Prayer and 98 Summoning make 138 CB (with maxed other stats), but 95 Prayer and 99 Summoning do not, because odd levels are simply dropped. In other words, CB-wise, it's impossible to tell if someone's 94 Prayer or 95 Prayer, because they'd have the same CB. Second of all, quests are not represented in combat. One of my friends right now is on the verge of 95 Prayer, except he doesn't even have the smithing level for Devious Minds. Are you telling me Smithing is factored into your CB level now?

Then switch them. 99 Strength, Abyssal Whip, 117 Strength, Super Strength Potion, Turmoil yields a max hit of 474 99 Strength, Abyssal Whip, 117 Strength, Extreme Strength Potion, Piety yields a max hit of 467 In other words, Turmoil is contributing more to this than Extremes. It's easy to fix - make it so Turmoil doesn't leech strength from players, so it's essentially a weaker Piety. Prayer still benefits - you get more prayer per potion and more pray points to work with in the first place.

People tend not to bring their max gear because it is in 50+ wilderness and multicombat. If you do, please pm me next time you're going. And woop you lose +7 bonusses. Big deal, why does it matter if you're killing that monster for fun anyways? Because the fun of killing weaker bosses is how fast you can pulverize them, and being able to spam more special attacks via special restores or hitting higher factors into that. And I'm not in a massive PvP clan, so I won't be doing it obviously. Tell you what, if/when RoT/VR/RSD/whatever other big PKing clan decides to camp Chaos Elemental for the new drops in their maxed gear, if I find out I'll let you know.

Seeing as you have resorted to flaming by calling my friends and I "no one," I think I'm just going to ignore your posts from here on as you are blatantly trolling. Is that flaming? I never knew Chaos Elemental was a popular boss. Especially not when you cannot take your top gear because of the PKers. It's not popular because it doesn't drop anything worthwhile. Yet there are still people who kill him for fun. There are still people who kill them because they like getting their own items from bosses. Calling those people nobodies does amount to flaming in my book. Also, who says you can not take your top gear? Did you forget Day 1 of Aquanites, where entire PvP clans camped them in their best gear, ready to smash anyone who tried to PK any them or fight with them for the Aquanite spots? Did you forget that people who hunt bosses and people who PK aren't mutually exclusive, and there are plenty of people who'll be willing to go in top gear, and simply PK anyone who goes after them? If you aren't trying to flame, then keep your blanket statements like "no one ever does ____" to yourself, especially when it's clear you know nothing about it at all.

Seeing as you have resorted to flaming by calling my friends and I "no one," I think I'm just going to ignore your posts from here on as you are blatantly trolling. It's irrelevant because the problem is the balancing in the way weapons and armors are obtained, not with the actual items themselves. The items themselves are perfectly fine - it's how we obtain the items that's the problem. And that problem falls to the way bosses work. Like I said, if Divine Sigil were dropped from Tormented Demons and Dragon Claws were dropped from Corporeal Beasts, our conversation would be along the lines of "Divine is OP, it's impossible to kill anyone, we NEED Extremes and they're not even enough." The point is that the deeper issue here is the balance of how the items are obtained, not whether the items themselves are balanced. However, that's completely irrelevant to Extreme Potions, because there IS reason to use them in the Wilderness outside of PvP, and they aren't going to greatly impact the imbalance already there.

Who said anything about PKing videos? I'm talking about people I walked past while going to the Agility arena to use up my Brawlers. I was out there for all of 15 minutes before I got PKed, and within that time period I saw three different people with Divines. Also, I didn't say it's reasonable to expect people to counter extremes by risking 400M gear, I said it's reasonable to expect people to counter top-of-the-line offensive gear with top-of-the-line defensive gear. Extremes don't play into it. Take away all special attacks and all weapons better than D Scimitars, and the effect is much, much greater than taking away Extremes. Yes, things in the wilderness generate targets... but they don't if there's no reason to use them. Who's honestly going to kill Hellhounds in the wilderness now when there's many spots elsewhere, and you can't use your Extremes out in the wilderness? If it weren't for Kuradel's Dungeon, I would definitely consider it for beating out the crowds. Not if Extremes aren't allowed, though. And again, Chaos Elemental is a boss. Plenty of people sunk 100M into a skill they don't like because it would help them fight bosses. You're going to make a boss much more profitable and tell people that the 100M they invested to help kill it better is of no use? That's like saying you can't use your strength level in the Wilderness anymore. BTW, I fail to see what's so skilled about running out there, finding someone who might not be ready, attacking him, and clicking on your special bar twice to see if he dies. Because that's really what Dragon Claw rushers do, and it works just fine for them without Extreme Potions. What's interesting about that? What's skillful? From where I sit, absolutely nothing.

Did you read what I said? There may be other things than PVP in the wilderness, but PVP has to take priority. If it didn't, we wouldn't be getting the wilderness back in the first place. So a 30m item compared to an item which costs 600m+ is comparable is it? As it has been said, the offence of 30m is much easier to come by than 600m. And that is only one of the very few which can compare to the killing power of many of the OP weapons which are even easier to attain. If PvP should take priority, then move the non-PvP out so we can use our Extremes on them when we've worked hard and invested much to be able to do these non-PvP things. Either way, it's still a benefit to allow Extremes in Wilderness. Also, prices are irrelevant in my opinion, because the balancing of prices lie elsewhere. All you need to do to switch that scenario is to give Dragon Claws to the Corporeal Beast and Sigils to the Tormented Demons. Offense and defense is balanced. Monster drops and ways of procuring the items may not be, but the items themselves are balanced.

So what? That doesn't address either of my points - if you're the "average" player, you're dead anyways against someone with good gear. And they can one-hit you either way. More likely, maybe, but Extremes are not the reason people OHKO each other. The reason lies within the weapon and the overpowered special attacks. Except the average player is somewhere between level 70 and 90. As much as hanging out on Tip.It would lead you to believe, most players are NOT high leveled. Most players do NOT have multiple 99s. And most players, if they were to go into the wilderness, will be confronting pures. And yes, it's already very biased, but that's just adding to the point - it's the stats and the equipment, not the potions. Also, I agree that Extreme Ranging is a problem. It's always been an oddball, since normal Ranging potions are so weak, and there's no Super to bridge the gap. I've never understood why we simply jump from normal to extreme for magic/ranged anyways. But again... why is the problem the Ranging potion and not the Dark Bow? Explain to me then, why Jagex has always tried to put non-PvP activities into PvP areas? Clue Scrolls. Training Spots. Monsters. Brawler Gloves. Even the planned "Wilderness Tag". Agility Course. The wilderness was never meant to be "PvP, don't come here for anything else." Also, I'd love to see someone with ONLY D claws one hit me when I'm ONLY wearing divine. Heck, I'd love to see him two hit me. It's not happening. Divines are already being used in PvP, and Torva/Pernix/Virtus will be too. Good PKers don't mind high risk, because it balances out by lowering the actual chance of death.

Is it? As I already pointed out, optimal defense matches optimal offense pretty well. The only reason it's imbalanced is that optimal defense is harder to achieve right now. This could change. In fact, I'm sure it will change, if only because no one is really hunting Nex right now. And of course you have to consider that even if Extremes make it worse, there are benefits. Like I mentioned earlier, I've hunted Chaos Elemental many times with my new potions. It's a boss, and my primary reason for earning Extreme Potions was to use them against bosses. In my case, I like Herblore as a skill, but I know many people who detest it, yet sunk 100M+ into it so they could be more effective against bosses. Now you're telling them, without much of a warning, that one of the bosses is about to become more rewarding, yet you can not use the potions you spend 100M to access against it? When it's part of the reason they sunk that 100M in the first place? Chaos Elemental isn't the only thing in the Wilderness, either. There are plenty of great spots for Slayer that carried the risk of Revenants, and now PKers. But now you're adding additional penalties to using those spots? Why use them then? Why do they even exist? But that's the point, it DOES have a benefit.

Really? Why don't we look at how big of a jump this max hit really is. Since you want to look at a "strong" player versus the "average" joe, let's use this situation. You have a level 70 pure, meant for hunting and killing other players, up against a level 70 player who's relatively balanced combatwise. Your level 70 pure has the following stats: 60 Attack 90 Strength 70 Constitution 31 Prayer Your level 70 "average" player has the following stats: 56 Attack/Strength/Defense 58 Constitution 43 Prayer (Assume he doesn't get protect melee on in time though, because if you assume they're using the right prayer, you're never one-hitting anyone.) With Super Strength Potions, the Pure is doing up to 659 with D Claw specials. Even with damage soaking, your average joe is very, very dead. Now let's put in Extreme Strength Potions. The Pure is now doing up to 693 with D Claw specials. That's a big hike now? An extra 40 points of damage when the Pure is already overkilling you by twice that? And that's with a special attack that amplifies the effect of the potion, too, because the damage hike is being represented through multiple hits. Let's look at the converse. Let's say we ban all special attacks and melee weapons stronger than a D Scimitar. What do you know, now the Pure is only doing up to 346 damage. The "average joe" is still probably going to die very quickly, but at least it's not a one-hit. What happens if we add Extremes? 364. Whoop-dee-f-ing-doo. Not even 20 damage. This is why picking on extremes of all things as being responsible for one-hit kos is ridiculous. Good weapons backed with good PvP stats are going to demolish mediocre equipment and average stats. Extremes are not going to change that. Good equipment and good defensive stats are going to save you from OHKOs. Again, extremes are not doing to change that.

The average joe isn't going around one-hitting people with Dragon Claws. No, but other people do; and when they can 1hit Joe I think that is not anywhere near acceptable. Then ban Dragon Claws, because you can already get a level 70 with Dragon Claws able to one-hit other level 70s, with or without Extremes. Ban Dark Bow. Ban AGS. Ban Vesta's Longsword (which is more of a 2-hit than 1-hit, but still really deadly). Our gap between offense and defense lies in how strong our equipment is, NOT in what potions we're using.

Overloads allow you to use brews instead of food, effectively tripling the amount of food you can bring and the fact that the stats don't degrade offers an advantage over supers aswell(as you'd be fighting at 116-117 most of the time). Realistically, overloads give you 9 str/def/attack, 12 range and 7 mage in one inventory spot and allow you to use brews, which would be disastrous to most fights. Yes, but that doesn't contribute at all to the "Omg I'm gonna one-hit you" issue.

The average joe isn't going around one-hitting people with Dragon Claws.

Don't go in the wilderness then. The wilderness is ment to be and I quote from Jagex "A dangerous place." Very stupid thing to say. A dangerous place is NOT somewhere that people can 1 hit you with something like a DDS. Dangerous place != Certain death. Also, i never assumed max offense. I assumed PKing gear, in which people easily hit 350s+ with a gmaul, without extremes. How the [bleep] would extreme attack accuracy be fair on any level? I have successfully maul rushed people with 90 attack and strength from 900+lp, do you really want me to have extremes? ... you do realize the difference between Super Attack and Extreme Attack / Overload is only 7 levels, even at level 99? Again, you do realize that the difference between Super Strength and Extreme Strength / Overload is only 7 levels, even at level 99? You also realize that while Extreme Magic potions are prohibited, Wolpertingers can be used (it won't even increase your CB level anymore) for exactly the same boost? Also, if you're already mauling people to death with 90 Attack and Strength, I don't think Extremes will really change that up a whole bunch. Attack is just chance to hit - it's like saying now, 3 sides of the dice will kill you instead of 2. Sure, it makes you more powerful, but the possibility of being one hit was always there. Strength is a slightly bigger issue, but even then things like Turmoil add a lot more to damage than Extreme Strength does. If any potion is really a threat, it's Extreme Ranging, since normal Ranging Potions are so weak.

Funny that everyone always assumes maximum offense, but never maximum defense. Full Torva + Divine will not get one-hit by anything. In fact, assuming you respond aptly, you won't be two-hit by anything either. Even assuming absolute maximum strength gear, your max hit is only 475-237-128-118 with Dragon Claws according to Tip.It's calculator. Before Divine: 475-237-128-118 After Divine: 333-166-90-83 After Soak (13% from Torva): 316-166-90-83 That's 655 damage. That's not even half of his health. Not to mention, he could've easily brewed when he saw you, giving him over 1500 health to begin with. Also, what about healing? You can easily cast Healing Aura and eat a piece of food in between. 230 HP for a Rocktail, 208 for Healing Aura. He just healed back over 2/3 of the damage you dealt with a PERFECT special attack, before you can follow with another attack using a speed 6 weapon. Just because Torva is rare now doesn't mean it'll be forever. I've already seen dozens of people PKing in Divines. Once people start killing Nex more frequently, I guarantee you'll see people wearing Pernix/Torva/Virtus, too. Remember when Ahrims came out and everyone thought it would be way too expensive for PvP? Using cheaper gear is now considered welfare among good PKing teams. EDIT: Here's another one. Dark Bow max hit according to Tip.It's calculator is 528-528. This is with Extremes and full Void, basically top of the line offense. RSWiki says 560-560. Let's go as far as to assume Special Restore potions and Ring of Vigour for back to back specials. Before Divine: 560-560 After Divine: 392-392 After Soak (26% from Torva): 342-342 Grand total of 684. Still not even half of full HP.

Again, the biggest reason isn't that it doesn't affect combat level(although they should if they are allowed), but that they would effectively kill pvp combat in that DPS will be times higher than what you can heal, resulting in everything about wildy being about luck. So why remove extremes? Why not remove all special attacks and all items with level requirements above 60? Or how about a flat damage reduction? Any damage you do to other players is reduced by 50%, period. Other games have used this to solve issues where strong enemies have many times the health of players, so what is acceptable DPS against monsters is not acceptable against players.

EDIT: Lagged and double posted somehow.

Are you implying that anyone who wants them allowed is a moron, or are you asking "morons" to give you an explanation you are prejudiced against already? In either case, there IS a point for Extremes in the wilderness, as you just admitted. Also, barring Daemonheim, Brutal Dragons (which aren't quite the same thing), and Chaos Tunnels (which requires going through the wilderness and is further complicated by the presence of Baby Black Dragons), the Wilderness is the only option for killing Green Dragons. The wilderness is the only option for killing the Chaos Elemental. Until Brimhaven Dungeon, the wilderness was the only option for hunting Red Dragons. When you have a Wilderness-located clue scroll, you don't have anywhere to do it but the Wilderness. This all ties into the concept Jagex set before us - high risk, high rewards. The Wilderness not only has high risk, but the risk scales - as players get stronger over time, the wilderness gets more dangerous. PvM is an integral part of the wilderness, else there wouldn't be so many wilderness options for PvM or even non-combat situations. Remember Brawler Gloves? They're meant for people to do things in the wilderness for higher rewards that aren't necessarily PvP. I earned my Extremes for PvM, and it's rather unfair if a big portion of PvM is suddenly rendered inaccessible to the potions, even if there are other reasons. It would be like saying tomorrow that you can't bring Extremes into the God Wars Dungeon, or Extremes no longer work for Slayer.

The point would be mostly so I could still use my Extremes against monsters in the wilderness. There are monsters I prefer to slay in the wilderness, and I don't mind the added risk, even if player killers are there. I've killed the Chaos Elemental plenty of times over the past few years, despite its loot being terrible, and Extreme Potions definitely make it easier. Then there's green dragons in the wild, and Zamorak mages from clues, too. These are all part of the reason a lot of players paid for their extremes - PvM as a whole, and they're on the verge of being taken away if Extremes aren't allowed in the wilderness anymore.

I'm not talking about what they should do, I'm talking about what they could've done. This rule has existed since... well, since I started playing years ago. This is why I think it was made. I agree that it's out of date, and that's probably why Jagex said they are considering it.

Personally, this is why I feel there was ever a rule against item transferring. When you're transferring items, there's really three ways to go about it. 1) You trade it to yourself. This requires logging in on two accounts. If you can log in on two accounts to trade to yourself, you can also log in on two accounts to fish at the same time, with almost no extra work needed. Or woodcut. Or if you're good enough, even hunt some bosses. There's no doubt that this is unfair, and if you allow multiple log-ins for some reasons and not others, you end up with this hassle of determining where the line is - what's unfair and what isn't. So it's easier to just say "you can not log in on more than one account at once." 2) You trade it to a friend, who trades it to you. Some people are trustworthy, some people are not, and more importantly, some people won't recognize people who are not. Encouraging this would essentially increase the number of complaints Jagex gets about item scams. 3) Drop the item, and pick it up after a minute. Or fifteen people pile on it and steal it from you, and you go on RSOF and make whiny rants all day giving forum mods more work to do until they ban you, whereupon they lose your membership. All in all, Jagex probably thought it was more trouble than it was worth. I know the "official" word is that it's unfair to other players, but I think anyone with half a brain can see that's complete BS... and this is the best reason I could come up with otherwise.