Soma2035

Hello, free trade. If you don't like the coinshare, free-for-all the boss, sell the loot and split it. If you can't trust your team mates to do so, then they shouldn't be your team mates. That's how it was for many years before Lootshare and Coinshare, and although there were scammers, the need for trust created many tight-knit communities.

In my opinion that would not be completely fair for people who do not like training combat if that's the case. This would also not be fair to maxed cbs like me. :thumbdown: It's kind of odd that Jagex compared Hati Gloves to Bonus XP Weekend when they're not really alike. Hati Gloves lasts based on XP, Bonus XP Weekend went by game time. Hati is available for an extended period, Bonus XP is a three-day incident. Hati remains at 2x the entire time until it's used up, while Bonus XP goes from 2.7 to 1.1. Why would Jagex choose specifically to compare it to a Bonus XP Weekend instead of Stealing Creation tools or Brawler Gloves? And the lore specifically mentions Hati has a brother. I think there's a fair chance that Jagex decided these "seasonal events" can substitute for Bonus XP Weekends. Hati's brother could easily drop skill gloves. Or it could be a different event entirely, and Hati's brother drops us more combat gloves 6 months from now.

Bandos GWD is a busy place, even people with overloads get crashed, especially at normal playing hours. A higher skill in X should give you an edge over a player that doesn't have it. Be it defence, attack, strenght, firemaking or herblore. I'm sorry that you don't like training herblore, but people who do need a reward to stand out from those who don't. That reward happens to be combat related, as are some other potions. Non-combat skill rewards for dungeoneering are both cheap and low level. Obviously, untradeable rewards that require more time/money and higher levels should give you an equality high advantage. You can't not scale something up just because you aren't willing to work towards it. Seeing as it's pretty clear you've never read my posts, you're just blatantly trolling now so I'm just going to ignore you from this point on. Because I said very clearly that Herblore is one of my favorite skills, even before Extremes came out. In fact, I've liked it since I became a member. I'm 96 in it now, with supplies for 97 and beyond. And I also said very clearly that I am in full support of rewarding high level skills. Also, mostly to other people who may have misread my reference the same way, I'm not talking about dungeoneering rewards, I'm referring to dungeoneering as an activity. Having high non-combat skills improves your dungeoneering experience, because you can collect better resources, make better items, and open more doors. However, you don't have to have high non-combat skills, as many items you can still get as drops from monsters, and even things that do require the level (AKA Slayer for Night Spiders to get a Shadow Silk Hood) you can compensate for by working together with someone who does have that skill. So while the skills all offer benefits, very few of them are actually requirements.

I'd be willing to dispute hand cannon being the best ranged weapon but that's irrelevant. The point is, Runescape has a very diverse player base. You see it every time you see a level 3 with several 99 non-combat skills, or working on them. You see it on these forums, where there's some people that are maxed in all skills, some people with decent skill totals but few 99s, and some people with just melee skills. People enjoy the game in different ways. Meshing these together - allowing noncombat to benefit combat, or vice versa, is a good thing, because it allows for more variety. However, extremely overpowering benefits that can not be replicated in any other way does not promote variety, it pigeon-holes people into a single style of play, which in turn detracts from the enjoyment from other players. It would be much better if non-combat skills could benefit in a way that makes them good to have, not a must-have. Dungeoneering is a great example of this by the way, as are effigies. It's very helpful to have non-combat skills, but you aren't required to have them.

Agility doesn't really play a big part in combat either. Increased restoration of energy is pretty moot except in very specific, unusual circumstances. It doesn't even work in F2P anymore, where energy restoration is limited enough that more energy restoration is useful. Firemaking also doesn't really relate to combat barring hand-cannons. Sure, you can cook on the fires, but who actually does that nowadays? There are so many permanent fires close to banks (or ranges, such as in the cooking guild). Even then, unless you're in Daemonheim, the quality of the log, and thus your firemaking level, is of no importance. Farming isn't particularly combat related either, besides providing a steady supply of herbs. The allotments have no combat relevance at all to my knowledge. The hops farming patches are neglected as beers are pretty much entirely outclassed (except Greenman's, which is not brewed from hops). What relevance does Thieving have to combat? I see nothing wrong with making non-combat skills genuinely useful. I see something wrong with making them a requirement to enjoy combat, which is what Herblore has become. Remember when Amulets of Fury came out? Crafting was a very useful skill to have. You didn't have to have it to get an Amulet of Fury, because the amulets were tradeable, but crafters could still profit by offering their services for a price. I'm not saying there's a problem with untradeable rewards, because there isn't. I like several skills and I plan to get several to 99, and I would like to be rewarded for them. However, people who don't like the skills shouldn't be faced with no other choice - there should always be an alternative. Treasure Trails giving Extreme Potions instead of Super Potions is the perfect example - you'll get a few potions here and there. Not enough to really substitute for 96 Herblore, where I'm hardly ever using Super Potions, but enough so that you can use them for the occasional jaunts to safe PvP, or to deal with crashers at bosses. Getting Herblore will still be immensely beneficial, but no longer an absolute requirement. Sorry, but I don't believe you. You're telling me that at normal playing hours, you can go Bandos GWD, without extreme potions, without using foreign language worlds, with a reasonable sized team/solo, and not get crashed? If that's true, then that's like saying any level 90 can afford a Torva plate by getting fifty visages in a row from Black Dragons, followed by a guy with a White party hat dying to the other dragon. Sure, it might happen. But realistically, no. Again, I'm okay with people getting an advantage. I'm not okay with the advantage being impossible to replicate by any other means.

Wrong again. Enjoying something doesn't mean you're entitled to that something, especially not over other people. Sometimes, you have to do things you don't like, to further increase the joy of doing things you like. I enjoy slayer. I have over 18 million exp on the skill, and I keep doing it. Would an untradeable reward specific to slayer enhance the joy I get from training the skill, and even bring more people to like it? Yes. I fail to see how forcing players to do something they hate in order to make doing something they like possible makes the game better. If it was a matter of making getting Extreme Potions EASIER, or making a boss fight EASIER, then yes, I would wholeheartedly agree. But it isn't. There is no other way to replicate these bonuses, and without them, the enjoyment of an activity is significantly reduced. And having 15 different bonuses of this type just means you'll need to spend 1000+ hours on 15 distinct skills, most of which you probably do not like, just to be able to enjoy what you do NOW. And that is ridiculous. I don't want to have to get 99 Farming for new textiles, 99 Mining to get a new Jewel, 99 Smithing to set the Jewel into a little golden decoration, 99 Crafting to craft the textiles into armor and attach the set Jewel into a staff, and 99 Runecrafting to enchant the new robes just so I can have a chance against 50 crashers at Bandos wearing that set of gear. If you think making the game that cumbersome is a good thing, then this is a rather fruitless conversation, since you're apparently either a sadist or a masochist. Or both.

Even if you sudenly invent an awesome way to turn runecrafting into an exciting skill, it's still only work if the experience rate was doubled or even tripled. Why? Because no matter how fun, after doing it thousands of times it gets dull. An MMO has always been a grinding competition. In the end, if you have nothing worthwhile to show for your grind, people will be less inclined to do it. You don't play many MMOs then. Sorry, I should've said large MMOs. You're right, I don't play many MMOs. But I've never heard of a World of Warcraft player spending 200 hours making their own armor because the absolute best armor with no alternatives comes from making it yourself. With regards to making skills fun, GOP would've been a great method to make RC entertaining, if Jagex hadn't gimped the rewards completely. Despite the fact that the game was horribly glitched for YEARS, it created a fairly strong, albeit small, community of competitive players. People who spend hundreds of hours playing for fun, and wind up with millions of tokens that they don't actually use. Now, just imagine if a) Jagex actually cared enough to make the game work properly and not randomly assign wins and losses, and b) the reward tokens could be traded for a fair amount of experience. Ta-da, you have a new method of Runecrafting that might be worse in XP/hour, but is still appealing to certain crowds. Look at farming. Runescape farming consists of having your farmers watch your plants while you do whatever, and check on them. Does it have to be like this? Farmville says otherwise. While I personally don't see any sense in Farmville, there are tons of people who love it. Other games, like the Harvest Moon series, have made farming quite complex and robust. Even without improving the farming system, there are people who actually enjoy playing Vine Sweeper, just like there are people who kill time with Mine Sweeper. After a thousand times, it's the same thing, but people still play Mine Sweeper anyways... and there are people who still play Vine Sweeper too. Skills don't have to be mundane and boring. Skills aren't all mundane and boring either - they appeal to different people. People who enjoy the skills should be the ones doing the skills. I hate to break it to you, but there are thousands of people who just slay because they like slayer. The money is secondary - it's not even a lot compared to how much the slayers could make doing other things. Some people even get 99 slayer multiple times on different accounts because it's their favorite skill...

Yes, remove the only tangible reward for training the skill. That will definitely make the skill more fun. Currently, the only incentive besides reputation that gathering and production skill have are the untradeable rewards. That's why skills like smithing, crafting and fletching are useless, and are treater as total level fodder. That's a problem with skills then. If something is boring and no one likes it, you make it more interesting somehow, not force players to suffer through boredom for exclusive rewards... What do you mean "In an MMO"? I've never heard of an MMO where the best combat items are a solid tier ahead of the next-best, are untradeable or bind-on-pickup, and can only be obtained through completely combat-irrelevant activities like making potions. Besides Runescape, of course.

Non-combat and combat do cross-over, but at the same time, there are usually alternatives. If you don't like training combat and thus can't trade at the monkey agility course, there are still a lot of other ways to achieve the same ends, and the gap separating them is relatively small. If you don't like training combat, you can still find team mates who enjoy combat and just skill in Dungeoneering - there are a lot of skillers with fairly high dungeoneering already. I don't mind turning it around if you're providing alternates, but Extremes are not an alternate - they're overwhelming. Mid-high level boss hunting for profit is really limited to three things - Bandos GWD, Armadyl GWD, and Dagannoth Kings. The other two God Wars Dungeon bosses drop far too little in comparison, and other bosses are on different tiers (KBD can't really be compared with them, nor can Nex.) However, not having Extreme rules out all three of them, as crashers abound at all three places. In fact, at Dagannoth Kings, crashers now try to kill you for your items, too. Other people using the Ape Atoll agility course doesn't affect you very much when you use the Werewolf course. Other people using Extremes has a huge effect on you when you don't use them. I'm all for rewarding people for high skills, but in the competitive combat situation we have today, all that does is force players to train skills they don't like, because they aren't really given any other choices. On the other hand, an idea that's been posted many times here and on RSOF with regards to Extremes would fix this problem nicely - add a store that sells a limited amount of Extremes at higher prices, or add Extremes as rewards to high level treasure trails. Instead of an "Herblore-or-bust" approach, reward people that train herblore, but still provide alternative methods to people who dislike that skill.

I disagree. It is not impossible to slay bosses at the God Wars Dungeon without Yaks and Unicorns. It is not impossible to fight the Corporeal Beast without Extreme Potions - it just is a bit harder, which I think is fair as people who put that much time in a combat-aiding skill deserve an advantage over those who do not. Thank you for the constructive reply, though. I didn't say anything about Yaks and Unicorns, did I? Summoning is a combat skill. It's trained through combat, as well, through the dropped charms, and the actual act of making the pouches is pretty much a formality. But yes, you do need Extreme Potions to slay bosses at the God Wars Dungeon without interference, unless you're playing at odd times. And most players do not have the luxury of saying "Oh, I'll just play at 4 in the morning when everyone's in bed." I am 138, with maxed out offensive gear, Overloads, special restore potions, and Dragon Claws. And every trip I've done to Bandos since free-trade has come back, I've gotten crashed. If it's on a lootshare world, it's by a team of five people just like me. If it's on a non-lootshare world, it's by a single person who figures he might as well go 50-50 with me. Take this situation again, only without the Overloads and special restore potions. You're getting crashed every trip and after that happens, you may as well leave because you're not getting kills. Being able to special twice for EVERY kill with more accuracy and more strength is just too much. Since the Extreme potions update, I've watched tons of friends pour time and money into a skill they detest, because without it, they don't stand a chance in a lot of combat activities. Even now, any half-decent Corporeal Beast team will not take anyone who doesn't have Turmoil and Overloads. And people crash at Corp, too (at least last time I went with a couple friends, we got crashed). Runescape is a game, and games are meant to be fun. No one should have to spend hundreds of hours in a skill they absolutely hate just so they can have a fighting chance.

make something else. It just so happens that combat content is the most entertaining atm. We have dungeoneering, wildy, staking, boss hunting, etc. there's nothing comparable to that for skilling. So something should be made. When Jagex tries to make something else, we get Fish Flingers. Lol.

Why should we force players to train skills they do not like to stand a chance? Herblore has essentially become a requirement for monster hunting. As someone who liked Herblore both before and after Extreme potions were released, I still don't like what they've done to the game. People should not be forced to train a non-combat skill that they dislike to stand a chance in hunting medium-high level bosses. There are many ways to make money in the game. Even if some are better than others, it means most players can eventually achieve what they want playing the way they like. Having so many ways to play, and so many ways to achieve the ends you desire, is what makes Runescape, well, Runescape. I'm not saying it's a perfect system, but I think it's much better than seeing all monster hunting spots being taken by teams that are advertised as: "MUST HAVE: 95 Runecrafting for super-powerful non-tradeable rune that casts Fire Nuke Barrage 91 Woodcut and 93 Mining to gather non-tradeable materials for +30% magic damage armor 93 Crafting for non-tradeable +30% magic damage armor 97 Smithing for non-tradeable weapon with a special that reduces magic defense by 50% 94 Farming for non-tradeable herb to make a non-tradeable extreme extreme magic potion"

You're a goddamn badass if you can get angry without swearing. Or you've just learned better ways to express yourself...

conversely, players who can lose billions in a matter of minutes yields more supply to sell off rare items to have liquid cash to stake or replace other losses. Unlikely, because if they lost billions, they probably staked the rare items to try to win their money back. Which is why you see so many party hat stakes...

Sorry for being a little bit off-topic, but did anyone else get a little popup when they opened this topic that said something along the lines of "Authentication required, Runeshark.com requests a username and password"? A google search indicates it's an xp tracking Runescape site that seems clean, so maybe it's just someone's signature or something.

Non-rushers generally do not benefit when rushing, because are not playing for the same reasons as you are, or else they would be rushing. Therefore, whether or not it makes sense to you for non-rushers to "just get with the program," they're not going to. Therefore clan chats like the one this topic is about is a very good idea. Complaining about non-rushers joining teams on w117 that are rushing, but not advertised as such, is a waste of time. EDIT: Actually, complaining about non-rushers joining rushing teams that are advertised as such is still a waste of time, because at that point, they're just griefing. It's kind of lame, but so is RC PKing and that's never stopped anyone.

soma, the attitude you are suggesting is rude and disrespectful to the people who are forced to dungeoneer with you. "non-rushing" in w117 or w148 is selfish; it punishes the people in your team for no other benefit than your own laziness or enjoyment. and trust me, often the "rushers" are stuck with idiots because 3bo is bad and w53 is dying. all the good dungeoneers already got 120. if you were to take that attitude, i would be totally unwilling to help you. you show no initiative for trying to improve yourself as a teammate and just because you don't like the face value of our arguments doesn't give you the right to be stubborn and to accept ignorance. __ I dont agree with the terms "rush" and "non-rush" because "non-rush" implies some kind of strategy - which it really is not. i kind of doubt that many "non-rusher" keyers know how to key effectively - prevent deaths, make it easier for your teammates, etc. as far as EFFECTIVE dungeoneering goes, there really is only one strategy. Whoa wait hang on. I'm not forcing anyone to Dungeoneer with me. I dungeoneer with a private, permanent team and we invite people to fill the remaining slots. If they like it, we invite them again, if they don't no big deal. I am not talking about me, I am talking about the general populace of world 117 and world 148. Once in a while, when none of our usual invitees for the last two slots are on, we visit one of these worlds and clearly advertise "Floor X 5:5 Non-Rush." However, not everyone does so. People just assume everyone is rushing, and thus when a non-rusher joins their team, they wind up stuck with each other. When that happens, both parties are unhappy, but the rushers more so, because they can not achieve what they want, while the non-rusher just has to put up with some bickering and whining while he's mining his useless Bathus ore. Worst case scenario is that the non-rusher gets kicked and then you find out he had a non-CB skill you need to progress. The problem is that there are people who do not like rushing on these public worlds. We've tried rushing, our team can do it, but we don't like it, so we make it very clear what we're doing to anyone who joins, but not all random teams extend the same courtesy to each other. What I'm saying is that it's a waste of time to try to coerce everyone in w117 / w148 to set aside what they want when you accidentally wind up grouped with them. Maybe it's not practical when you're at your level, but my two permanent team mates and I are still within 5k experience of each other, which is good enough for us. Again, why should they? I choose to DG with a perm team because it's more fun that way, but the fact is, if a non-rusher winds up with a rusher, it's the rusher who gets screwed over. It's like playing chicken with a guy in a monster truck when you're in a go-kart. You're the one getting hurt. They just get slightly annoyed, unless they happen to be a sadistic jerk as well. In the end, trying to convert world 117 and w 148 is fruitless.

And that's fine... but I just think it's kind of bizarre to hope for public DGers to have the same aims as you. Especially if you're clearly advertising as a rush team. why? lol. for people who really enjoy dg and want to be serious about it, our attitude is much more relevant than someone who does like one dungeon a week. Because non-rushers often don't give a rat's ass what you think. When a non-rusher and a rusher wind up on the same team because it wasn't advertised clearly, a non-rusher does what he wants to do and gets the dungeoneering experience he's looking for. If he's there to gather resources and make crappy armor, he can do exactly what he went there for, even if it means putting up with whining from a rusher. On the other hand, the rusher doesn't have a choice - the dungeon is going to be slow. The non-rushers have no reason to suck it up and rush with you, because they aren't necessarily benefiting. In fact, they can benefit by NOT sucking it up and rushing with you. That's why expecting them to rush is silly. If you want to rush, make sure that's clear before you start, or make/join a team for fast dungeons like you guys have done. Expecting w117 or w148 to conform isn't going to work. EDIT: No, Grimy. I'm not saying to be less mean to 117ers or 148ers. I'm saying you should just abandon w117 and w148 altogether, just like fast SCers don't bother with the principle SC worlds.

And that's fine... but I just think it's kind of bizarre to hope for public DGers to have the same aims as you. Especially if you're clearly advertising as a rush team.

I think that's the big difference - I don't do several dungeons a day, because I'm not overly concerned with skill level or rewards. I figure I'll get them when I get them, and that's that. Things don't get old nearly as fast when you do maybe four or five dungeons a week... In either case, you're still digressing from my point. >.>

So you're okay with fooling around, but you're not okay with people who enjoy fighting in Dungeoneering killing all the optional monsters? I'm getting rather mixed messages here. like i said, it comes down to a matter of taste and appreciation of what is entertaining. some things show good taste, some do not. making fun of an idiot is entertaining. killing things for basically no reason usually isn't. i don't see people killing cows for fun on a regular basis. Not on a regular basis no, but I've seen a lot of high level players go back and kill something easy like the KQ or KBD, just so they can appreciate how far they've come since their first encounter with it. Dungeoneering gives me that feel - the same monster encounter feels entirely different when you're at the beginning of the dungeon with barely any food and no armor, versus when you're at the end of the dungeon with full gear. The difference is, you only get to 138 combat once. In Dungeoneering, you can do it every floor. Well I don't do public dungeons for exactly that reason so it all works out in my case. But still, the point stands - you shouldn't expect public players like those on w117 or w148 to be playing for the same reasons you do.

So you're okay with fooling around, but you're not okay with people who enjoy fighting in Dungeoneering killing all the optional monsters? I'm getting rather mixed messages here. By the way, in case the message was lost, I'm perfectly okay with people rushing and I do appreciate this clan/chat you're setting up. I just think it's silly to say "if you're not rushing and your team wants to rush you should rush since everyone is better off."

This is why people complain about the efficiency crowd being elitists. There are plenty of fun moments in Dungeoneering that don't have to do with experience or the rewards. Or even the dungeon going smoothly. Have you watched two team mates duel for 10+ minutes on a runecrafting puzzle? Or needed a Winter's Grip and grabbed a seed only to find that one of your team mates planted Cave Potatoes everywhere? Or maybe called out the Gravecreeper boss thrice, and have a team mate gear for Necrolord cause he thought you were talking about Gravecreeper trees, and some people were grabbing range gear so he figured the boss must be Necrolord? I don't see how it's bad taste to not care as much about how fast I'm gaining XP, and be able to laugh at silly mistakes and incidents that occur in the dungeon.

Per usual, not everyone has fun the same way. Just because a fast dungeon where everyone knows what they're supposed to do is fun for you doesn't mean it's fun for everyone else.

But... wasn't this the way it was even when free trade was not present? Getting 3 Visages in 1 hour at Frost Dragons. Getting a Torva Platebody on the first day at Nex. 76Ker getting back-to-back Ancient Statuettes, or Dragon Full Helms before the ordinary drops were replaced. Even sniping a Divine Sigil off the GE.