Soma2035

I didn't assume fun means casual. Please take the time to actually read my post. Also, I'm not arguing against this CC at all. I'm arguing against people like Obtaurian saying that people who don't want to rush should stay away from the DG worlds and public DG teams, because I feel it should be the opposite. If you want to play in a specific manner that requires everyone to play along with it, you should go to a clan chat (like the one discussed in this thread) of like-minded players. Not tell people who play the way they like to follow your way because you think it's better.

Actually, when I went to world 117 last time, I found a pair of level 138s advertising "Floor 37 non-rush 5:5!" I figured if you want to rush, you don't join a team that's advertised as non-rushing, and vice versa... incidentally, I joined the 138s and the dungeon actually went pretty smoothly. Also, non-rushers don't necessarily benefit from rushing. Assuming they are there for the maximum XP/hour is rather asinine. The only measurable benefit of training dungeoneering is in the form of experience and tokens. Rushers get experience and tokens much faster. I'd say that makes rushing irrefutably beneficial. However, you're right that rushers should not join teams advertised as non-rush. It's unfortunate, though, that no-one advertises whether or not they're rushing, which is part of the problem. Thus, it should always be assumed that teams are rushing, as it's the most logically beneficial option for everyone on the team, regardless of preference. Just because you can't measure fun doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Believe it or not, there are people who Dungeoneer because it's fun for them. They shouldn't have to lie down and die because you want to dungeon a different way for them. Dungeoneering is a lot like Stealing Creation. Some people enjoy fast SC, some people prefer the normal style of SC. Fast SC is better for rewards, which is the only measurable benefit. The people who prefer fast SC or only want rewards go to a private chat/clan. Why can't Dungeoneering follow suit?

Actually, when I went to world 117 last time, I found a pair of level 138s advertising "Floor 37 non-rush 5:5!" I figured if you want to rush, you don't join a team that's advertised as non-rushing, and vice versa... incidentally, I joined the 138s and the dungeon actually went pretty smoothly. Also, non-rushers don't necessarily benefit from rushing. Assuming they are there for the maximum XP/hour is rather asinine.

First dungeon I did after seeing your picture, lol. 15-20 is normal for me.

Surprised that scamming, luring, and general douchebaggery become extremely common with free trade? I'm not. I knew this would happen as soon as Jagex announced the poll. Nobody believed me... I'm pretty sure plenty of people believed you / agreed with you, but simply didn't care. It's not like everyone was always nice to everyone else when we had trade limits...

Or just use Kuradel's dungeon, Ferocious Ring, Dragon Claws, and spam special restore potions.

Aren't all F2P greaters in the wilderness now?

No, I'm saying that you should be prepared to risk losing your chaotic if you want to bring 3 items that protect over it. Dying can be unavoidable and it's likely that everyone, if they keep bossing, will die eventually, so plan your gear accordingly and don't risk items that you're not prepared to have a chance at losing. Obviously you do not own a crossbow. It has a ridiculously low protect value, so low that just about anything decent you wear will protect over it. It's [cabbage] that you have to wear what is considered to be welfare not to risk it. Just to put things into perspective, Karil's Top protects over it. And you lose Karil's top in just about any situation. So any good ranged armor protects over your Chaotic Ranged weapon, and any good melee armor (Torva, Bandos, Verac's, Divine, Elysian) protects over Chaotic Melee weapons. Heck, other melee weapons are protecting over them. Dragon Claws comes to mind.

No, I'm saying that you should be prepared to risk losing your chaotic if you want to bring 3 items that protect over it. Dying can be unavoidable and it's likely that everyone, if they keep bossing, will die eventually, so plan your gear accordingly and don't risk items that you're not prepared to have a chance at losing. Chaotic protect values are designed such that this is basically impossible, especially for the crossbow. You would know this if you owned chaotics. So yes, you are saying that to use chaotics, you are rolling the dice hoping that Jagex isn't going to kick you off the server and take it from you, which I feel is an unreasonable game mechanic. Losing money, sure, because I'm making a lot of it doing what I'm doing, but losing a chaotic is a huge time sink, so losing it over something that is in no way my fault is a slap in the face. Are you running around in Rune / Proselyte all the time? Because whenever I'm in serious combat gear, my Rapier is being risked.

ITT: People who assume that when somebody disagrees with them, that person is ignorant.

why drop when you can just bank everything with a yak... Because if you have a Yak, you have 30 Brews with which you can tank out at least two teleblocks, so you can just waltz out of the Wilderness via the lever?

Why protect Bandos but not Armadyl? Why allow people to protect Berserker Rings or Dragon Claws over everything else, but not Spirit Shields or Chaotics?

Because summoning no longer affects your combat. Did you even read the update, 2011prod? Maybe before calling someone a 2011prod, you should learn how something released back in 2008 works. You can't cast Winter Storage when you have 0 LP. You can't cast Winter Storage on items you have equipped. If you're in low level wilderness, almost every death is attributed to a KO, as you can simply run away or teleport if you know you're going to die. What is someone with a Yak going to do - rewind 30 seconds, ask you politely to stop, then bank his items? If you're in deep wilderness, 12 combat levels don't matter. A 126+12 that's not summoning could be attacked by a 138 before, and they can be now. If you're level 76, I hate to break it to you, but the 126+12 doesn't need his Yak to kill you.

Why is Winter Storage suddenly a problem when people have been PKing in deep wilderness with Yaks just fine over the past two years? Most people don't even complain about the banking aspect, it's the additional 30 Brews that makes it impossible to kill them before a TB wears off and they lever away...

Don't think that's true for dogs And what I mean is sniping level 3 bats (like for level mod and stuff), where itll be faster solely on the basis of not having to run to attack them Also I mean ranging the first hit and going into melee. This takes no time if you do it well. If you pick up fires/ess during the floor and don't always use magic, I disagree Also cat staff with air surge is like... comparable to empowered fire with fire surge Wind Surge maxes about 220. 120% of this is 242. Fire Surge maxes 280. 110% of this is 302. 20% less damage is comparable? o.O I really think one more bound item and not having to make any runes is better than 10% more damage.

Water is high because of Geyser Titans. There's really only a short window during which you want to make Moss/Ice/Fire titans, but once you can make Geyser titans, they are the best experience for your blue charms to 99 and beyond. Maybe they're not time-efficient or gp-efficient, but people would generally still prefer to use them as it makes them feel like the blue charms they've already collected are worth more. EDIT: Just checked it. 79 is when you start making Moss titans. 83 is when you are able to make Lava Titans instead. That's only 4 levels which you would possibly want to use blue charms for if you want maximum experience per charm, and it's very easy to just skip those 4 levels with crimsons / greens / golds. On the other hand, Geyser is 89 and beyond. Moss Titans are like the next best thing to Unicorns between 79-88 Summon, so there alot of people that still need them. There are 39,739 people who are at least 89 summoning, according to the high scores, and 43,255 people between 79 and 87 summoning. The amount of moss titans needed isn't even close to the amount of water talismans needed, because Geyser titans are the absolute best experience per charm, and blue charms are fairly limited. Then there's the fact that 79 to 83 is about 1258 Moss Titans. Assuming the average person gets about 25% of their XP from making Moss Titans, each person is making over 300 pouches anyways. For a lot of people, that will last them until 88. Many won't even use all of them and be able to sell them to the people who do need them.

Water is high because of Geyser Titans. There's really only a short window during which you want to make Moss/Ice/Fire titans, but once you can make Geyser titans, they are the best experience for your blue charms to 99 and beyond. Maybe they're not time-efficient or gp-efficient, but people would generally still prefer to use them as it makes them feel like the blue charms they've already collected are worth more. EDIT: Just checked it. 79 is when you start making Moss titans. 83 is when you are able to make Lava Titans instead. That's only 4 levels which you would possibly want to use blue charms for if you want maximum experience per charm, and it's very easy to just skip those 4 levels with crimsons / greens / golds. On the other hand, Geyser is 89 and beyond.

Not when the item is being dumped, because no one's buying it at med. The treasure-hunters get a split at 95% of the GE price, but no one's buying at 100%, because tons of people are dumping theirs for 95% already. So two weeks from now, the price is at 70% of the original GE price. Do the goods just float in the GE until the price goes back up? Or do the goods sell now at 70% and you put 25% of the value of the item into the game as pure gold?

Coinshare needs to be removed. It was simply a horrible remedy to the lack of free trade and the unfairness of random drops. It's created millions of gps out of thin air and seriously imbalanced the game towards a few boring camping places. Of course Jagex soon realized their mistake and added lootshare potential which is a far better fix. But then they leave in coinshare... Coinshare sells for med price on GE, and drops coins equal to min price. It's actually taken money out of the game. Bandos armor is 20M, and is bought out. Bandos armor goes up in GE price to 25M. Bandos armor is dumped, and can no longer be sold for minimum price. Higher price of Bandos armor encourages higher level people to kill General Graardor, causing him to die faster and many more drops to happen - the supply increases, but the demand is fixed because the GE is buying it. 10,000 pieces of Bandos are added at 23.75M (minimum price) 1,000 pieces of Bandos are sold over a week. The mid price is now back to 20M where it belongs. What happens to the extra 9,000+ pieces of Bandos? Do they sit in the GE until the price goes up? What if the price doesn't go up? Do they sell for the new medium? Then you removed 1.25B when the 1,000 pieces are sold (assuming none of the ones sold were from actual people which is unlikely), and then created 33.75B the week after when they get bought out again. The numbers are hypothetical but the situation is not. A lot of players see prices of coinshared drops extremely high and say, "now's a good time to hunt that monster!" So they hunt it, and it splits the value, and no one actually wants to buy it because the prices are all wonky thanks to merchants. I personally don't know if the items sit in limbo or if the items are simply sold at the new price. If it's the former, then it adds massive amounts of money, then potentially removes huge amounts later too if the item ever returns to that price. If it's the latter, it simply adds money.

I'm not ignoring it, I already answered it. It's a matter of opinion. Let's break down the numbers. Say you're right, and that herblore costs 75 million while smithing costs 3 million. Hate to break it to you, but that's not a very big difference. 25x is the difference between a Mithril and Rune Scimitar. Would you say getting a Rune Scimitar is very, very hard while getting a Mithril Scimitar is easy? Probably not. But I guarantee you there are players out there who can afford the Mithril and not the Rune. The situation hasn't changed just because you are 50M richer. Sure, 3M is small to you, while 75M is huge. But that is to YOU. There are players who find the 25K for a Rune Scimitar huge. And then there's players like me, who find them both rather small. I'm not rich - far from it. But 75M is honestly not very much, you can scrape more than that in a few weeks of casually doing what you like, if what you like happens to be even remotely profitable. And then there's the players a step up from where I am, to whom a white party hat isn't huge. A White Partyhat is worth at least half my bank, yet they're ready to just give one away because they have a handful more as well as a nearly maxed cash pile and everything else they need. This is why drawing an arbitrary line is stupid. "This is too hard, this is too easy." That comes purely from your perspective. First of all, how do we know you're representative of the typical Runescape player? Second of all, why should we cater to the typical Runescape player, when the typical Runescape player grows stronger and stronger? At one point, any 99 skill was insane. These days, they're commonplace. At one point, it was a HUMONGOUS deal when anyone made it to max stats. These days, we have hundreds (if not thousands) of people with maxed stats. People change over time, and as they change, what looks hard and what looks easy changes too. Which is why I said, unless it's borderline negligible for everyone (3 attack) or incredibly over the top and into space for everyone (200M RC), it should be fair game. 96 Herblore looks hard now, but it might not be 5 years for now. 70 Smithing might look easy now, but it most certainly wasn't 5 years ago. And in either case, that's only from the "typical" stance, which excludes many players because Runescape players are very different. Anyways, this is your only argument that actually has merit. I can understand the desire to draw a border, but until you have a quantifiable line and a fair way to determine where this line should be, I don't think it's fair to arbitrarily place one thing on one side of the line, and one thing on the other. I've got to go now though, so if you do have a fair answer to this, I'll read it then. Right. Which is why Turmoil isn't your only reward, your reward is Ancient Curses. And you have required levels of 92 for Soul Split, 89 for Wrath, going all the way down to 50 for Sap WArrior. And don't even start with the whole "you can get this level without gaining a combat level." Odd prayer levels NEVER give combat. Level 9 to level 10 Attack gives approximately .33 of a combat level, which will eventually show up in combination with other skills. Level 95 prayer from level 94 gives 0. Nothing. Nada. Because the combat level specifically removes ALL odd prayer and summoning levels, hence why 95 prayer and 99 summoning can not get you to level 138, but 96 prayer and 98 summoning can.

You're saying attack is a "requirement" of ext. attacks and a representation of them in combat. Incorrect. You argue this based on the fact that there is no advantage from using extremes up to level 9? Okay then. That settles it. There is your answer, everyone. Because players with 88 herblore and under 10 attack get no advantage from using extreme attack potions, they are fair to have in PvP. Once again, thanks to Soma, /thread. Isn't that exactly your case with Turmoil? "Oh you don't benefit unless you have prayer levels so it's fair to have in PvP." Honestly, are you trying to mock the "See, you need CB levels to make it useful in PvP" argument? Because so far that's your ONLY argument as to why Turmoil should be allowed.

But that is why Attack level has milestone levels. Level 10 Attack is where you get +1 from Extreme Attack. Level 19 Attack is where you get +2 from Extreme Attack. Level 32 Attack is where you get +3 from Extreme Attack. You see? There's a +1, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6, and +7 unlocked through attack levels. Just like there's a Sap Warrior, Sap Range, etc, unlocked through prayer levels. But before you can get ANY of these attack levels, and before you can get ANY of these ancient curses, you need to either train Herblore, or train Smithing and do quests. The same concept applies to Dungeoneering except with only one benefit and one stage. 1. There's a combat component, which is represented in your combat level, and a non-combat component, which is not represented in your combat level. 2. If you have the combat component, but not the non-combat component, you get the normal benefits of the combat component (more prayer points, more prayer restoring, more accuracy, more strength, whatever that combat skill normally does), but you do not get ANY of the non-combat component's benefits. 3. If you have the non-combat component, but not the combat component, you get no benefits. As you raise your combat component, you gradually earn the benefits (except in the case of Rigour, which gives it to you all at once). 4. If you have both the non-combat component and the combat component, you get the full benefits. AKA +7 Attack, or Turmoil, or Rigour.

Every noob can get 95 prayer and 96 herblore. It just takes time. Whether you're willing to spend the time is dependent purely on how much you enjoy it, so what's hard and what's not hard depends heavily on who you are. In either case, they're both "noob" achievements compared to how much time people generally invest in this game. Yes, there's a difference in difficulty. No, the difference in difficulty is not that big. Certainly not large enough to warrant a big "F U" to dedicated players. Extreme Potions do not immediately have a benefit. A Super Attack Potion gives 5-19 Attack levels. An Extreme Attack Potion gives 5-26. Not 12-26. In order to get ANY of the extra 7 levels of benefit, you need to have a certain Attack level for each of them. Similarly, Ancient Curses do not immediately have a benefit. In order to get ANY of the benefits of Ancient Curses, you need prayer levels. You get Extreme Attack Potions through Herblore. You get Ancient Curses through Smithing and Quest Completion. You get Rigour through Dungeoneering. You do not get any benefits from Extreme Attack Potions unless you have Attack. You do not get any benefits from Ancient Curses unless you have prayer. You do not get any benefits from Rigour unless you have prayer. That is why they're the same. If you still think it's illogical, you need to open your mind and actually think things through. I've come to the conclusion that they are simply arguing for the sake of arguing. There is no logic to what they are saying. Maybe if you've actually read what I've said instead of "OMG he disagrees he's wrong blargh," you would find logic in it.

Fixed. Satisfied? Smithing and quest completion is to herblore as prayer is to attack. Period. If you try to argue that, you're simply unaware of the facts. And SirIzenheim (sorry if I butchered your name), yes I'm aware that some of the curses are based off your stats. But others are not. Wrath, for instance, is based solely on your prayer. If you would prefer I say that Turmoil is based on 4 different combat stats while Overloads are based off of 4 different combat stats, I can do that instead... but the concept behind it is still the same.

Explain me why are you are pking with all your combat stats at level 1. But you ALSO need 85 herblore to use extreme attack pots. Your attack level only slightly changes the amount extremes boost. Read my post next time. I am saying 'compared to 95 prayer 60 smithing is a negiglible accomplishment'. I'm fairly sure they will do the quests. They are a pushover. And in f2p once you've maxed combat (which all these high prayer guys have), levelling prayer doesn't move you into a more powerful combat region. The effort you put in for 60 smithing is negiglible to 85 herblore both for the money and the time involved. It IS relevant. It would be unfair too if you needed 90 woodcutting to be able to use special attacks. You ALSO need 60 Smtihing to be able to use Ancient Curses. Your prayer level only changes which prayers you get. Compared to 95 prayer, 60 smithing is not negligible at all. I enjoyed training to 95 prayer and I would do it again in a heartbeat. 60 smithing (and later 80) was a devastatingly boring grind, and I would not be displeased if I never had to touch the skill again. What people like and don't like are different, what's easy to one person can be hard to another. You can not say "oh this achievement is harder than the other, therefore this one is unfair." Will they do the quests? Maybe. Stop changing the question. You asked if anyone has 95 prayer and hasn't done the quest, and the answer is a resounding YES. People do have 95 prayer without the quests. Also, in F2P, prayer makes a HUGE difference in PvP combat with maxed melee stats, because you can't restore prayer mid-battle. How many prayer points you have directly corresponds to how long you can take advantage of those benefits. The money I put into 96 herblore is negligible compared to how much effort 80 smithing took... like I said, prayer and herblore is a breeze for me. You can't use that as an argument of why something should be banned and why something shouldn't, because what's hard and what's not is not universal. Then you are simply punishing players who don't play exactly the same way as you.