Soma2035

Invalid points? The EXACT same concept applies to the Ancient Curses. If you aren't 95 prayer, you don't get Turmoil. If you aren't 96 attack, you don't get +7 Attack levels over Super. If you aren't 92 prayer, you don't get Soul Split. If you aren't 8X attack, you don't get +6 Attack levels over Super. If you aren't 89 prayer, you don't get Wrath If you aren't 7X attack, you don't get +5 Attack levels over Super. I can't be bothered going through the table to point out every benefit, but there's 7 attack level requirements to achieve 7 levels of benefit over Super Attack Potions, and there are 19 prayer level requirements to achieve 20 ancient curses. However, the overarching benefit, the Herblore and the Ancient Curses, is earned through non-combat and questing.

They do not give similar boosts. The boosts you get from Herblore are similar to the boosts you get from Smithing and Questing, NOT from Prayer. Prayer is the ability to USE the boosts, just like Attack is the ability to USE the boosts of an Extreme Attack Potion. Attack is represented in combat, so therefore there is no difference. There is something wrong with you in the head. Attack isn't a requirement, you can use an ext. attack potion at 1 attack and still get a boost, which is an advantage. You can't use turmoil at 1 prayer, can you? No, you can't. Extreme Attack Potion at level offers +5, which is exactly the same as the Super Attack Potion which also offers +5. While you get "a" boost, there is no difference between it and the one available for everyone, so your herblore is of absolutely no benefit to you. Why do you people act as if Extremes are a magic +7? It's not. It's a 5-26 boost versus the original 5-19 boost, with the extra 7 points being distributed between 1 and 96. Meaning that in order to get each of these seven points, you require a specific attack level... All other requirements are NOT redundant. There are people who meet the prayer requirements but not the other requirements, and there are people who meet the other requirements, but not the prayer requirements. The people who meet the other requirements but not the prayer requirements can benefit from the weaker ancient curses if they meet the lower prayer requirements (such as 92 for Soul Split). The players who meet the prayer requirements can benefit from the inherent prayer benefits (more pray points, more prayer restore) but not the ancient curses benefits. The same applies to Attack. There are people who meet the attack requirements but not the herblore requirements, and there are people who meet the herblore requirements, but not the prayer requirements. The people who meet the herblore requirements but not the attack requirements can benefit from the weaker benefits of Extreme Attack (+1, +2, +3, +4, +5, and +6 depending on your Attack level). The players who meet the attack requirements can benefit from the attack benefits (accuracy, wielding equipment) but not the extreme attack potions benefits. I'm going to use your own line here. Anyone with half a brain can see the parallels between Herblore and the non-combat requirements of Ancient Curses, and between Attack/Strength/Defense levels and Prayer in the relationship between Extremes and Turmoil, thus they do not differ and that is NOT a legit reason to disallow one and not the other.

they do boost your strength, magic, ranged etc..What are you doing in the wilderness anyways, with all those at lvl 1? Hence you do not have the combat levels from 10-95 prayer and not the ability to use turmoil. perfectly fair. Herblore is a mad expensive skill. The smithing requirement for devious minds is trainable in a few hours. If 96 attack made you able to use extremes that'd be fine, as it would be displayed in your combat level. I'm fairly sure someone dedicated to getting 95 prayer won't mind doing the quest. We can safely assume that someone with 95 prayer has done the quest. Can you name anyone that hasn't? Retired players don't count Correct. Correct. Do you agree with '85 herblore is a (10x+) harder requirement than 60 smithing'? They do not boost your stats any more than Super potions do. That is a huge misconception. Level 9 Attack is boosted 6 levels by an Extreme Attack potion, and 6 levels by a Super Attack Potion. Level 10 prayer is the same deal as level 9 Attack. If you don't have the prayer to use it, you don't get the benefit. The same applies to Extreme Attack - all the herblore in the world will not make an Extreme better than a Super when you're level 9 Attack. The benefit is graduated, and at certain levels, you'll begin to benefit from the Extreme Attack, just like at certain prayer levels, you'll begin to benefit from Curses. If the difference was 200M RC and Level 3 Attack, I would agree, but it's not. Just because you think 60+ smithing is easy doesn't mean everyone does. Just because you think 90 herblore is mad expensive doesn't mean everyone does. Unless it's something that can be universally agreed upon (like, level 3 attack is easy since even someone new to the game can achieve it within about 5 minutes with a little instruction, or 200M RC experience is borderline impossible for most players), then the magnitude is irrelevant. Look up "Madmanpur3." He's not actually a pure, either. He's already 89 (or 90? don't remember.) prayer with 95 prayer banked. He hasn't even done Devious Minds, and probably won't for a while. He's not retired, and I bet he's not alone. Also, there's quite a few F2P players with 95 prayer, because 95 prayer has its own benefits that are NOT related to Turmoil. When/If these players get membership, maybe they'll get ancient curses, maybe they won't. And no, I do not agree that 85 herblore is 10x harder than smithing. I personally feel herblore is much easier. You can throw a lot of money at it and the routine doesn't change much. Whereas, Smtihing is slo-mo if you smelt gold ores, but if you go for the faster and expensive methods, you need extra clicks (use the bar on the anvil, right click on the item you want to make, etc, etc). Also, there's the personal preference of herblore over smithing - I feel like I'm making something useful which in general makes me feel better about spending money on it. It's easier for me to make 1,000 potions that I'll use one day, instead of 1,000 mithril platebodies that I know are just going to be alched. And again, even if it were 10x easier, that doesn't change the fact it's irrelevant. 33 woodcutting is 10x easier than the smithing, and that unlocks the Dragon Dagger (represented by a whopping 25k risk and 60 attack), but you don't see me [bleep]ing that smithing is "omagawd too hard no fair."

They do not give similar boosts. The boosts you get from Herblore are similar to the boosts you get from Smithing and Questing, NOT from Prayer. Prayer is the ability to USE the boosts, just like Attack is the ability to USE the boosts of an Extreme Attack Potion. Attack is represented in combat, so therefore there is no difference.

I'm someone who's pointing out a flaw in your argument. :rolleyes:

Herblore isn't risked, is it? Rigour isnt risked is it? prayer is added to your combat level, isn't it? Attack is added to your combat level, isn't it? Dungeoneering doesn't add to your combat level, does it?

More smoke screen to cover the fact that you don't have an argument. Okay then. 99 Herblore does you no good when you have 1 Attack. Ancient Curses do you no good when you have 10 Prayer (hypothetically, you got your Ancient Curses and got statwiped). Herblore does not add to combat. The Quests and the smithing levels do not add to combat. 96 Attack does not mean you have Extremes. It does mean you could potentially benefit from Extremes. 95 Prayer does not mean you have Ancient Curses. It does mean you could potentially benefit from Ancient Curses. I don't need anything to be shown twice. I don't need anything to be shown three times. Prayer is shown, Ancient curses are not. Attack is shown, Extreme Attack potions are not. Prayer adds to combat levels, Attack adds to combat levels. Smithing and Quests do not add to combat levels, Herblore does not add to combat levels. What don't you understand about the fact that Extreme Attack Potions having absolutely no benefit beyond Super Attack Potions at level 10 Attack, just like Ancient Curses having absolutely no benefit at level 10 Prayer? You're not even comparing apples and oranges, you're comparing apple seeds to orange trees. There is the ability, which is the Extreme Attack Potions, or the Ancient Curses, which is not represented in your combat level. Then there is the actual benefit, which requires a combat level (but is not represented by it, because the combat level can exist without the ability). 95 Prayer doesn't show Turmoil, and 96 Attack doesn't show Extreme Attack. However, 95 Prayer shows that Turmoil is POSSIBLE should Ancient Curses be unlocked, and 96 Attack shows that a +7 advantage over Super is POSSIBLE should Extreme Attack potions be unlocked.

Yes, you are tossing another weight on the same side. No, it's not counter productive. With the scale analogy, Jagex does not know what weights are on each side (they do not know how much they need to do to actually balance everything). Chances are, if they choose to fix it, it'll be with a series of small updates, making changes one at a time. Similarly, they don't know the weight of extremes, because there's many factors to consider. How valuable is the Overload renewal effect? How powerful is the Special Restore potion? What styles of PKing will be popular in 2011, what styles will not? How do Extremes impact these styles? If you balance the scale first, then throw a mystery weight on one side, you get to start over. If you throw the weight on now and step back and take a look, the balancing process is only needed once. By allowing Extremes you punish those that didn't train herblore. By allowing Ancient Curses you punish those that didn't train smithing and don't like doing quests. Again, stop comparing Herblore to Prayer. It's Herblore to non-combat and Quests, and Attack/Strength/Defense/Ranged to Prayer. Magic is sort of an oddball but irrelevant anyways since Summoning is no longer considered part of your combat level (although it is sort of shown), and can be used to get an equivalent boost anyways. I wasn't aware making 150M was challenging, my bank just randomly accumulated over 100M in the past few months just with casual slaying and boss hunting. I wasn't aware that training herblore was challenging, my friend came back to RS less than a week ago with 60 herblore and he's already at 89 or 90. He was poor when he started, too. What's challenging to you and what's not challenging to you is irrelevant, because you're not the standard. There isn't a standard. Unless the requirement is very, very extreme (low, such as level 3 attack, or high, such as 200M RC), the difference is purely from your standpoint. The principle remains intact - non-combat skills and features are providing an invisible combat benefit that requires combat skills to utilize.

Most people who invested in herblore knew that they wouldn't work on PvP worlds. They did not know there was any chance of the Wilderness coming back. In fact, Jagex explicitly stated multiple times on RSOF that the Wilderness was never coming back. Why was there any reason to believe that suddenly there would be a day where I could no longer slay Hellhounds in the Wilderness using Extremes? Or Greater Demons, or anything else out there? The Wilderness has been a PvM place for three years now, with no warning until a vague message in MMG's clan chat within the past couple months that the wilderness may become PvP again. The only boss that suffers is unpopular because it has a bad drop table. Guess what this update was going to change? That's right, the drop table of that one boss. In either case, this is rather ridiculous. If you say there's no reason, I mention PvM is a reason, and you go "OMG YOU WANT A PVM HEAVEN YOU'RE STUPID LOLOL." That's not the case at all. There are multiple reasons to bring Extremes into the Wilderness. Proper balance is one of them - if we believe Jagex actually WANTS to achieve proper balance, then it's best if everything's in the picture now instead of fixing it, throwing it out of the loop, and fixing it again. Fairness is another - you still have not explained where my comparison of Ancient Curses and Herblore is wrong - both of them are non-combat, both of them require combat levels to benefit from them, neither of them are actually shown in your combat level, but the actual level of benefit is dependent on a combat skill which IS usually shown.

A) Balance should include all factors. If you balance a scale and toss a weight on one side, what do you know, it's not balanced anymore. It's been proven that Jagex can not imagine every way players use content, in a process known as "emergent gameplay." The best way for Jagex to get a complete picture of the imbalances is for every major factor to be involved in the picture. B) In the meantime, you are not favoring one group of players over another. Those who invested in smithing and quests are being favored over those who invested in herblore. Those who have done both only get the benefit of half of their efforts. By allowing extremes, you benefit both. C) If Jagex wants to continue drawing people into the Wilderness to use the wilderness alternatives, then adding penalties for using Wilderness spots is not a good idea. And removing Extreme Potions is exactly such a penalty. If Jagex decides Wilderness should be designed entirely for PvP, we really don't need Green Dragons, Hellhounds, Moss Giants, Greater Demons, Chaos Elemental, and whatever else out there. They're honestly just decorations that may annoy PKers out there and interfere with player-versus-player combat. On the other hand, if Jagex wants to continue to draw people into the Wilderness, the Abyss needs to be made better, Clue rewards need to compensate for the effort required in doing a Wilderness clue, and Jagex should not further limit people who could potentially choose to do something in the Wilderness. I know no such thing. Instead of resorting to calling it BS, why not explain how my Ancient Curses / Extreme potions analogy is wrong? It looks pretty similar from where I'm standing. Non-combat to get it, combat to benefit from it, combat levels are shown whether or not the ability is unlocked? Also, what imbalances are you referring to? Personally, I feel that Dragon Claw specials are one of the most imbalanced features in the Wilderness right now, allowing you to do insanely over-the-top damage in two quick attacks. But Turmoil benefits this as much as (if not more so than) Extreme Strengths at level 96+ Strength. Similarly, Dark Bow's damage is pretty close to game-breaking, but Rigour is every bit a part of it as Extreme Ranging.

Do you understand what xpx said about them a few posts up? You are saying that PVP being inbalanced is a valid reason to introduce even more derailing items? No. Ancient Curses requires quest completion and various skill requirements to unlock. Ancient Curses requires prayer levels to benefit from it after it's been unlocked. It provides more than one benefit, with gradually increasing prayer level requirements, up to 95. Extreme Attack Potions require a non-combat skill to unlock. Extreme Attack Potions require attack levels to benefit from them after they've been unlocked. It provides more than one benefit, with gradually increasing attack level requirements, up to 95. If your prayer levels also represent the increase in combat ability due to Curses, the attack levels also represent the increase in combat ability from Extreme Potions, because without 16 Attack, you aren't getting the +1 Attack, just like without 50 prayer, you aren't getting Sap Warrior. This continues up the scale until 95 prayer and 96 attack (Turmoil and +7 Attack). Yes. I'm saying that if PvP is already imbalanced, allowing another imbalanced item that also conveys other benefits (fair to people who invested in one over the other, fair to people who want to continue using them for what they've been using them for since they were released) is a good idea, and balance should be addressed as a separate issue because it goes much farther than Extremes. You need 95 Prayer to use Turmoil. But that's not all. You need 92 Prayer to use Soul Split. You need 89 Prayer to use Wrath. So on, and so on. You need 96 Attack to use the +7 advantage Extreme has over Super. You need 81 or 82 Attack to use the +6 advantaged. So on, and so on. Having Ancient Curses does you absolutely no good if your Prayer is very low, and having Extreme Potions does you absolutely no good if your combat levels are very low. I see no difference besides the magnitude of the requirements. 65 Smithing versus 88 Herblore, or 95 Prayer versus 96 Attack. The principle is the same though. Non-combat to unlock, not represented in combat level, combat to benefit from it.

Can you stop pulling false information out of nowhere and pretending it's a valid argument? Extremes WERE allowed in dangerous PvP. Also, for some reason, that reminds me a lot of people who said "Slavery's been around forever. It's not going to change all of a sudden." Well, they were right in that it wasn't really sudden, but it eventually changed. We allow Turmoil. We don't allow Extremes. That's inherently unfair, and balance isn't a valid excuse when the system is already completely imbalanced, and proper balance could be achieved many other ways. No. Ancient Curses requires quest completion and various skill requirements to unlock. Ancient Curses requires prayer levels to benefit from it after it's been unlocked. It provides more than one benefit, with gradually increasing prayer level requirements, up to 95. Extreme Attack Potions require a non-combat skill to unlock. Extreme Attack Potions require attack levels to benefit from them after they've been unlocked. It provides more than one benefit, with gradually increasing attack level requirements, up to 95. If your prayer levels also represent the increase in combat ability due to Curses, the attack levels also represent the increase in combat ability from Extreme Potions, because without 16 Attack, you aren't getting the +1 Attack, just like without 50 prayer, you aren't getting Sap Warrior. This continues up the scale until 95 prayer and 96 attack (Turmoil and +7 Attack).

Your suggestions for players: - I already will continue blessing graves I see, whenever I can spare the prayer, or even if I can't spare the prayer if I feel the person deserves it. - This backfires, in my opinion. Talking back to trash talkers doesn't get you anywhere. Report them and move on. Same goes for PKers who harass skillers, it's one part small chance of loot, one part being able to pick on someone who might not be good at PvP, and one part attention ("Ahahahah I'm giving you a hard time"). - Uh...? - Too much to ask from most of the playerbase. Those who want to be nice will be nice, those who enjoy annoying others will probably keep doing so, because that's how they have fun. Kind of unfortunate but that's how it is. Your suggestions to Jagex: - I think you're operating under the misconception that a risk-free environment is a friendly one. I disagree, I feel that a risk-free environment is a cold one. 4 years ago, we didn't have lootshare, and we didn't have gravestones. When people hunted bosses, they did so with friends, because they wanted people who they could trust to share the loot and save their items in case of death. When you didn't have enough people, your friends introduced you to their friends and vice versa, so the community of trustworthy players could grow. Nowadays, there's pretty much no risk. Lootshare is your distribution, and as a group you agree beforehand if it's lootshare or coinshare - the rest is automatic. If you die, there's very little reason for them not to help you, which means there's little meaning in the act of blessing your grave. It's evident in the monster hunting communities - in 2006/2007, monster hunting clans like GoF and SoDB were lenient with skill levels, tough on scammers. Who you are was more important than what your character was. Now you have monster hunting clans like OTG. What do we generally know OTG for? Their stringent skill requirements. Yes, you need two (I think?) references, but when Nex came out and I was joining various teams, it was surprising how many OTG members could be in the same chat and not recognize each other. Even old monster hunting teams like SoDB have started letting in old scammers. Keeping areas that require teamwork risk-free invites the current practice of "go to the forums, find the highest levels, go boss hunting, part ways". Putting the danger back in there discourages this practice and encourages friendship, trust, and the forming of actual tight-knit communities. - Luring people into the Wilderness on false pretenses (such as a trade) was finally declared an item scam near the end of the Free Trade era. I don't see any reason it would suddenly become no longer a scam. - Making statements is not very important because the majority of the playerbase does not use fansites or RSOF. Too many players just log on and play. And besides, people who want to be jerks will hardly listen, will they? - Agreed. Either non-combat and PvM should be removed entirely, or the wilderness should be designed so PvM in the wilderness is consistently worthwhile to justify the risks. Things like the Abyss really need to change - you risk your pouches, you risk all your items, and the benefit is usually smaller than conventional methods (ZMI, Graahk, etc.) - Jagex has always tried their hardest, or so they say. Either they've been lying, or so far they've just been on the losing end of that battle. I feel it's the latter, but meh.

Where did I ever imply that the Wilderness should be a PvM heaven? Seriously, try reading before responding. What I said was, the Wilderness has always encouraged PvM, by offering people benefits they can not find elsewhere, ranging from exclusive monsters to better locations. Also, are you honestly pretending I'm the only person who kills Green Dragons? Because I'd like to point out, I don't personally kill Green Dragons, and the only reason I even know of Green Dragons is the sheer amount of people who complained to me about Green Dragon bots back in the day. Bots which Jagex promised to remove (whether they succeed is a separate question but we may as well give them the benefit of doubt as it is their game). The wilderness has always invited a combination of PvM and PvP. If something has minor imbalances to PvP - imbalances that already exist in the system - but benefits PvM significantly (especially when you consider that encouraging PvM in the wilderness also produces more targets for PvP), then I think it's rather odd to suddenly turn against principles we have accepted. The only reason I bring up PvM at all is that people say things like "oh there's no benefit to Extremes in the Wilderness." Go on, scroll back to the first time I brought up PvM in the Wildernes. Notice that it's AFTER someone said that there's no point to have Extremes in the Wilderness, which is definitely false. Stop putting words in my mouth. My point is that banning the untradeable potions on the grounds of "it's too powerful" or "it uses a non-combat skill" is nonsensical. PvM is only relevant in that there is a purpose for Extremes in the Wilderness beyond just making players deadlier. Again, if you think that the combination is too strong, why is it the potions that should take the hit? Why shouldn't it be prayer instead? Or Chaotics? Or special attacks? The easy way isn't necessarily the right way. Just because "keep doing what we've done with herblore" would fix the problem (which it doesn't, since the effect extremes have is already small) doesn't mean it's a good solution, because you're giving the shaft to a lot of players for no actual reason besides "this is sort of how we've done it for the past couple years," instead of looking at the problem closely and coming up with the best solution. What we have is neither fair nor balanced. PvP is already an offense versus defense disaster, and the presence of Extremes would have very little impact on it.

How am I looking for a whole to argue through? I honestly don't think the quote is very clear, and judging by Jagex's unwillingness to continually answer questions and offer more details, it's not going to be clarified. Overloads continually boosting you to 118/99 is certainly within the scope of what they've said. After all, it's still bringing you to the normal cap, isn't it? And Special Restores are honestly a bigger concern to me than the Extreme Attack/Strength/Defense/Magic/Ranged potions. Like I mentioned earlier in this topic, +7 skill boost is nice but not exactly huge. On the other hand, Special Restores are amazing in PvM, yet when the update originally came out, Jagex specifically re-tooled some special attacks so it wouldn't be broken in PvP. The Ring of Vigour throws a little wrench in that, but that goes back to the whole "risked benefit" doesn't it? I'm sorry if you misconstrued me when I used the terms Extreme Potion to refer to either the actual extreme potions, or the group of untradeable potions as a whole differently. I really should've worded that better. And... I don't know. I was big on PvP a long time ago, and they left a lot of glitches for a very, very long time. Recently they cater to the PvPers pretty well, but Overloads have always been an oddball with so many unintended side-effects that I really don't know what will go wrong with them, and how long it will take Jagex to correct them. And I still think that considering all the feed-back Jagex has gotten, they may re-consider. EDIT: Huh. I forgot about the Juju gumbos and the Baron Sharks entirely. I wonder if Jagex has even considered those. :mellow:

I didn't say duck into the Corp Lair to use Extreme Attack Potions, I said duck in to drink Special Restores, didn't I? If that wasn't perfectly clear, I apologize. And uhm... bugs in the first few days? I think the Overload and Dungeoneering "bug" has been around for more than a few days. My point has always been the same. The rest of my arguments are responses to other people's points, and my reasoning. My point is that we already allow factors that do not influence combat level, such as quest completion and non-combat skill levels, to influence PvP in PvP and BH worlds, so with the aim of overall fairness, there's no reason to deprive one group of players their non-combat related benefits, especially when existing benefits already outweigh them. Saying that it'll make PvP too deadly isn't an excuse, since Turmoil is deadlier than Extremes (with regards to melee, anyways, which is generally the deadliest.) Saying it's invisible isn't an excuse, since the presence of Turmoil, and heck, the presence of the last critical prayer level, is invisible, as well as the non-combat requirements attached to it. Saying Turmoil requires prayer isn't an excuse, because the formulas for Extreme Potions offer graduated benefits, just like Ancient Curses do, and these bonuses start at an absolute flat zero, meaning you essentially require combat levels for Extreme potions to be of use. At least within the scope of melee combat, there is no reason to ban Extremes and not Turmoil, and doing so is unfair to those who invested in one and not the other (or both). More importantly, you are changing up the rules on Extremes by adding more restrictions to what has essentially been a PvM area ever since Extremes have been released. These "points" are just my rational for disagreeing with the common arguments against allowing them. My actual point though, is still the same as before - it's really not fair to ban just extremes when several other features that are permissible share the same characteristics (besides difficulty, which is really an arbitrary thing and varies from person to person, especially when neither case is really an extreme). Also, I'd like to mention that my original argument wasn't that Extremes should be allowed as they are. If you scroll back to the first (or maybe second?) page of the topic, I also stated that I find it to be poor game design to force players to train a skill they may dislike to high levels only to compete, and that there always should be some alternatives.

Did they? Is this the only one you're referring to? Because that leaves quite a bit open to interpretation. First of all, that doesn't do anything with regards to the Overload effect (and seeing as even now they still haven't removed the Overload effect for Dungeoneering so you can basically have an Overload for the first five minutes, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest is Overloads will work perfectly fine in the Wilderness). Second of all, that doesn't address the other untradeable potions. Super Prayer and Super Antifire already work in PvP and BH worlds. They'll probably still work in the Wilderness. Special Restores are definitely questionable too. Third of all, it doesn't say you can't bring them into the Wilderness. You could always duck into the Corporeal Beast Lair, or into the Chaos Tunnels, or something else nearby to drink your Special Restores and go back out. Really, we don't know what's going to happen until they share more details than this. If I missed a newer answer from them, please link me? :) EDIT: Also, I'd like to think Jagex's current design is subject to change. First of all, the statuettes remaining is a horrible idea in my opinion. We do not need more coin production beyond high level alchemy and frequent money drops. This is just my opinion though, but secondly, when asked about their stance on item transferring between accounts, Jagex said that while it'll still be against the rules, they are considering it again and this may change. Hopefully, this is their general stance with regards to this update - watching carefully and making appropriate changes, rather than letting "hey this is what we used to do, we should keep doing it" be their dominant reason for most of their policies.

If you didn't fight him after the old wilderness was removed, you shouldn't have a problem fighting him now that it's back. There weren't extreme potions back then. If extremes are allowed in the wilderness, all I can say is good luck. You'll need it. I do have a problem when I invested 100M+ for Extreme Potions, with Chaos Elemental being part of the reason for it. If the chaos elemental was really that big of a reason to get extremes, I don't think you invested wisely. You say you haven't used the wilderness much, so why squander your time arguing on forums when you can be making big money killing the chaos elemental? Get out there, only 7 days left! Are you mentally challenged? It seems like you lack any semblance of reading comprehension.

If you didn't fight him after the old wilderness was removed, you shouldn't have a problem fighting him now that it's back. There weren't extreme potions back then. If extremes are allowed in the wilderness, all I can say is good luck. You'll need it. I do have a problem when I invested 100M+ for Extreme Potions, with Chaos Elemental being part of the reason for it. Are we really back at this, really? Yes, offense has gone up. But so has defense. And if you're in deep wilderness and a group of PKers show up with tb and barrage, it doesn't really matter if they have stream or not, because you're dead either way. It was like that before, and it'll be like this now too.

I took that risk every time I went out after the Chaos Elemental before the Wilderness was changed. I geared so I didn't mind dying, yet could still kill the Chaos Elemental pretty quickly. Even after the Wilderness was removed, I don't use the Wilderness much, so I don't know just how common Revenants are. I still gear to be prepared for a massive attack since I've heard rumors that you only ever see 2 or 3 Revenants at once, and screenshots showing 30. I'm okay with the risk of other players, and I don't really think they're any more dangerous because they'll have Extremes.

Sounds like someone's argument is losing steam. ;) Sounds like someone doesn't actually have an answer and is making smart-ass comments to mask it. PvM in the wilderness should not be nerfed because of a BS principle that is already violated by Turmoil and many pieces of popular PvP items.

Green Dragons are in two places. Wilderness, and Chaos Tunnels. Wilderness has risk of Revenants (soon to be replaced by PKers) which plenty of players are willing to put up with. Chaos Tunnels has constant harassment by Baby Black Dragons. There's Brutal Green Dragons, but if you want to collect your own Dragon Bones (which a lot of people do), Green Dragons are by far the fastest option if you're willing to suffer the risk. Now the Chaos Tunnels requires this risk too, and you can't use PvM potions against them in the wilderness even if you're willing to suffer the risk of PKers? Chaos Elemental is a boss monster. Boss monsters are rather limited in this game, and I personally love killing him, as he has some odd mechanics that make it interesting. At the same time, he's not hard, and his defense is low enough that I can kill him fast and enjoy the satisfaction of it. You're nerfing that, too. Oh, and rubbing it in my face by finally making his drop table decent too? Then you have the Hellhounds, Fire Giants, Greater Demons, Lesser Demons, Red Dragons, etc. There are new spots for them, but a lot of PvMers both before and after the trade limitations braved the risk of the Wilderness for a less crowded place to kill those monsters, be it for drops and slayer. Again, you're telling those people that not only do they have to brave the risk, they can't use designated PvM potions that they've been using there since the potions were released? That doesn't seem status quo to me. The Wilderness has lots of stuff that people use Extremes on, and you're nerfing that. Actually, you can't see the animations all the time. I've noticed that when I'm in combat, some combat animations override it. Not to mention in places of lag, animations definitely like disappearing, and crowded PK spots are at the top of this list. Overhead prayers give it away, but overhead prayers aren't used in a huge part of PvP, the whole 1v1 deathmatch style. Even Smite lost popularity since all it meant was both players guzzled prayer potions, and a lot of players refuse to fight against Soul Split right now. And Rigour is another example of something that's not factored in your combat level, but quite a large benefit. Sure, it needs 74 prayer, but it also needs Dungeoneering. I think we should be fair. Especially when you're getting people involved that couldn't care less about PvP, but invested 100M+ for benefits in PvM that are now going to be cramped for the sake of PvP. If you're going to be ridiculous and ban Extremes on the grounds of "oh it requires non-combat skills", just remove all quest and non-combat skill items. In fact, I think a lot of serious PvPers would think this makes PvP better, for the same reason a lot of serious PvPers preferred F2P Wilderness over P2P.

The requirement for Ancient Curses is a series of quests and a mixture of combat and non-combat skills. The requirement to benefit from the Ancient Curses (that is, to actually use them, instead of switching to the book and doing nothing with it) is prayer levels. The requirement for Extreme Attack Potions is a non-combat skill. The requirement to benefit from Extreme Attack Potions is Attack levels. You do not benefit at all from using Extremes over Supers if you don't have enough Attack, just like you do not benefit at all from using Ancient Curses over normal prayers if you have minimum prayer. And this goes all the way up to the highest levels. You don't get the final benefit from Extreme Attack (+7 over Super Attack) until you get 96 Attack, just like you don't get the final benefit from Ancient Curses (Turmoil) until you get 95 Prayer. Also, you're not leaving the status quo. You're changing the Wilderness to disallow Extreme Potions, which is relevant because there are Wilderness PvM and non-combat activities that will suffer from this. And again, this is exactly the same case as Turmoil. A high level person with 95 prayer and Turmoil is visbily identical to a high level person with 95 prayer and no Turmoil, who is visibly identical to a high level person with 94 prayer who may or may not have Turmoil. All three characters look exactly the same, but one of them has a 10% strength advantage... 69 to 70 prayer has a 0.25 increase in combat level. It may not be visible at every level, but it exists, and will be evident at some level as PKing increases your stats. 59 attack to 60 attack has approximately an 0.33 increase in combat level. It may not be visible at every level, but it exists, and will be evident at some level as PKing increases your stats. 94 to 95 prayer has a 0 increase in combat level. 95 prayer does not exist to Jagex's combat formula. You will never see a combat level difference between someone with 94 prayer and someone with 95 prayer if their other stats are the same, no matter what their other stats are.

... so how is it represented then? Player 1 has 94 prayer, Player 2 has 95 and thus turmoil. Where's the representation of Turmoil? How to I distinguish Player 1 from Player 2 without stat spy or looking at the high scores? The fact that he the gained levels in the process of getting 94 Prayer. It doesn't matter if he can use Turmoil or not. What do you mean it doesn't matter if he can use Turmoil or not? That's a 10% strength difference in high level PvP. And the levels he gained in the process of getting 94 Prayer are there to represent 94 prayer - the prayer points, the increased benefit from prayer restoring items, and the access to the prayers and items up to level 94. I seriously do not understand the point of this argument. So there's a jump in pking power from 94-95 pray. Ok? There's a jump in being able to wield claws at 60 vs 59, gs at 75 v74....not sure what your point is, or how this relates to extremes. You obviously gain CB lvls with prayer, even though you don't gain a level in that one instance, the CB system never showed every single lvl in any CB skill. There was probably a difference having 93 mage and 94 mage too. Prayer functions just like any other Cb skill. I don't really think you can argue that herblore is the same, considering you don't gain any cb lvls at any herblore lvl. When you go from 59 to 60 attack, your combat goes up. Not by a full level, obviously, but by a fraction of one that will combine with your other skills to make combat levels. When you go from 94 to 95 prayer, your combat does NOT go up. You do NOT gain a fraction of a prayer level. The combat formula disregards that level entirely. Secondly, 95 prayer is not the only requirement of Turmoil. There's a quest series involved, which includes a smithing requirement. The level requirement doesn't matter because it's the principle involved - a non-combat skill that has no representation in your combat level and quest completion that has no representation in your combat level is offering up to 10% more strength. Finally, Extremes DO require combat levels in the sense Ancient Curses do. Let's put them side-by-side. If you have Ancient Curses, they don't do anything for you until you have prayer. At level 50, you'll get the ability to use Protect Item and Sap Warrior. At 52, you'll get Sap Ranger. So on, and so on. Similarly, if you have Extreme Attack Potions, they don't do anything for you until you have Attack levels. With level 1 attack, you'll get +5 Strength from a Super, and +5 Strength from an Extreme. No difference whatsoever. At level 16 Attack, you'll get +1 from Extreme Attack that you wouldn't get from Super Attack. At level 30, you'll get +2 from Extreme Attack that you wouldn't get from Super Attack. See? You unlock the ability, be it Extreme potions or Ancient Curses, through non-combat skills (and in the case of Ancient Curses, quests). The benefit has graduated requirements for the benefits. Oh really? What is this difference then? Besides "waah 96 herblore is hard"? Lots of people find 96 Herblore very easy. I did. One of my friends who just came back to RS did. Lots of people who power to it to join good monster hunting clans think it is. Similarily, lots of people find 70 Smithing very hard. Again, I did. It seemed forever away when Devious Minds came out, and it took a lot of work for me to get there, and it was rather daunting. Different levels have different difficulty levels for different people. Therefore the actual quantity is irrelevant (unless it's a token amount, like, 3 attack, which anyone can get within about 10 minutes of playing without even knowing how to play, or an absurd amount, like 200m runecrafting experience, which most Runescape players can not be expected to get). What matters is the principle, and here, it is the fact that either non-combat levels SHOULD affect combat, or they should NOT.

... so how is it represented then? Player 1 has 94 prayer, Player 2 has 95 and thus turmoil. Where's the representation of Turmoil? How to I distinguish Player 1 from Player 2 without stat spy or looking at the high scores? The fact that he the gained levels in the process of getting 94 Prayer. It doesn't matter if he can use Turmoil or not. What do you mean it doesn't matter if he can use Turmoil or not? That's a 10% strength difference in high level PvP. And the levels he gained in the process of getting 94 Prayer are there to represent 94 prayer - the prayer points, the increased benefit from prayer restoring items, and the access to the prayers and items up to level 94.