TheAncient

i would easily them for 8M a piece. line of reasoning: dging is fun and i'd be happy to make 1m/h doing it. takes about 8 hours for me to get one.

Add me and if I find a good cc/irc channel I'll let you know and vice versa. done deal, my dg perm team is probably gonna hunt the boss together too

Ehh yeah no... Would you like to test it on me? Yes 99.9% of the time I would win... Alright. I've already tested this out with a friend of mine, who is maxed in combat, has a chaotic rapier, dragon claws, Turmoil, Soul Split and was wearing Morrigan's with a spectral spirit shield and a master wand while being farcasted. I always won with ease lol. Sure, I'll fight you. yeah mage is pretty frickin ridiculously accurate. I've lost in near-max mage def (175+) to people in ahrim and dhide boots lol.

I would totally do this. Pay my team each 500K before the floor and 500K afterward and you have a done deal. 30 minute floors either way.

the fact that you have a steel titan doesn't remove your need for hp, lol. are you implying that someone with a titan will have good enough gear to avoid having trouble surviving? GOOD ENOUGH GEAR, LIKE A SGS? I haven't had trouble surviving on ANY slayer tasks since....level 80...when I got a bunyip/excalibur Now, I have soul split. The only thing I have to work at to survive at is Dagannoth Kings. EEE is way better than SGS at DK's. EE is arguably better too because you don't have to risk fury/chaotics. about 1/3 of my rex can be completely soul split; 2/3 of my supremes can be completely soul split flicked. I would argue that SGS nor EEE are really that necessary to last 2+ hours on a tribrid trip.

the fact that you have a steel titan doesn't remove your need for hp, lol. are you implying that someone with a titan will have good enough gear to avoid having trouble surviving? GOOD ENOUGH GEAR, LIKE A SGS? you mean EEE and Soul Split I think, lol.

Wish there were a way for good MHer's to gather together without having to join clans like OTG, lol.

How are you preparing for Nex?

The costs to get an EEE are higher than those for any godsword - by far. That's why I still like to get a godsword for slayer (saradomin).. The healing + prayer regen is better than every other item. A regular EE is almost just as good and also very cheap.

Currently, i'd just conclude that there is no number one showing of combat ability. When wilderness comes back, it will, again, dominate. Safe pvp really shows nothing of pvp ability because of the lack of risk. Risk is what separates the children from the grownups. One very important difference between Wildy pking now and Wildy pking in the past is that gear only made a marginal difference in the past but it makes a huge difference now. Regardless of how good you are, it is pretty ridiculous to be risking multiple chaotics, gear that costs in the hundreds of mils, etc. on a regular basis. Unless you are 120 DG and have a bank that's worth hundreds of billions, you will simply not be PKing in the best possible gear. "accurate" 1v1 ability will basically never be reflected by PKing now. This doesn't even include the new armors which will most likely cost 500M+ for the three sets together. Moreover, the reinstatement of the wilderness does not include the removal of safe pvp arenas.

Can I conclude that PKing mentality is outdated for the modern combat system? We shouldn't care about what's historically been valued, but what should be valued in the current day. Seeing as how much of PvP (even dangerous pvp in the form of BH worlds) is not in the wilderness now, as well as the fact that regardless of defense (excluding divine/protection prayers) there's always a chance you could get 1HKO by a simple rush, why is your perspective relevant?

At this point I think both you (xpx) and I know that arguing against something which is mostly opinion is pointless. We aren't going to convince one another whether safe pvp or pking is more fun - that's completely experiential. For example, winning a 1v19 or 1v6 hybrid 138's is lots of fun. Nonetheless, we can talk about what reflects true skill. how would you respond if I brought up the point that a DM doesn't necessarily have to be at mage bank or deep wild? What if the setting were something completely different, such as an isolated area in the wild or duel arena? If you were to challenge someone to a 1v1, how realistic would it be to bring that person to MB or somewhere where other people can kill or PJ you? It's interesting that you say that my view is limited to that of a safe pvp prod; is it not possible your views are limited only to that of PKing? Like I've been repeating, PKing has many limitations which do not reflect combat as a whole in Runescape. Another thing: What do you claim is really so skillful about KOing?

Because in a 1v1 DM of "true combat ability" all the stops are pulled - people can use the best possible equipment, food, etc. without cost being an issue. PKers have to worry about cost and risk when setting up inventories and gear, whereas in true combat cost should not be an issue. As an example, this actually does make a huge difference because magic defense is very expensive, so good magic defense is cost-prohibitive to PKers. This is why tribriding in general sucks for PKing but is necessary for safe Pvp, and in a deathmatch a good tribrid should have a significant advantage over a mage/melee hybrid. More importantly, in 1v1DMs you can't pick / change opponents in the middle of the fight. You can't run. Look at the original post - I mention PKing only in the last line. This thread is, in addition to PKing, also about combat in Runescape as a whole, because people who whine about prayer are everywhere. Moreover, you do not seem to be agreeing to the point that I extrapolated from your reason why not to pray: that PKing is about killing and Not a demonstration of accurate combat ability. This conclusion naturally follows from your reasoning.

If you didn't know that pking and safe pvp were drastically different from the getgo, i'm sorry, but you must have really been stupid. There is a reason pkers completely disregard of safe pvp of any kind. And really, most of the thread is trying to show that pkers are wusses who want people to play their way, and even you can't deny that, all while trying to convince us your way is best. For you to have a clear and educated view on this, you'd atleast need to have pked somewhat. Durr PKers completely disregard of safe pvp cus they dumb. By your logic, which I disagree with (because experiences aren't important in this case), you need to have had a clear and educated view on safe pvp to claim a good understanding of safe PvP as well. Experiences are unimportant in this case because I can just ask you what you think is important. This thread addresses PvP in general and not just PKing. If we admit that PKing and Safe PvP require different skillsets, the natural question is which one reflects true combat ability in a 1v1 deathmatch. I think this is a very valid question, since PKers pride themselves on being good at "combat" and not just "PKing". What I've been repeating is that the PKing skillset is not as related to "true deathmatch ability". This is the point I've been trying to argue - I am not claiming it to be pure opinion. I am still curious: what skills do you claim are actually involved in KOing? I take one more step in saying that I think PKing SHOULD be DM's. It is more honorable to have a fight to show true combat ability rather than just KO potential. I should highlight this as an opinion, but I don't claim this statement to be an argument. Feel free to disagree with this point, as I expect you would. I should make it very clear: the original post addresses not only PKing but also just PvP (and "true deathmatch ability") in general. I understand now why PKers see prayer as "dishonorable" (because PKing is about killing and not being better at combat), but this logic clearly does not apply to safe PvP or DM's that show true ability.

Sure seems like a topic from your perspective. But in any case, the most important thing you seem to be forgetting is that pking isn't about death matches- as dieing matters, you need to kill other people, not survive their attacks. Thus, as being able to KO your opponent is the most important factor in determining the winner, protection prayers will more or less kill any KO potential. If you can't KO, you can't pk. Like I've already said, this perspective fully admits that PKing is more KO/kill focused than who is good at combat. I'm fine with that, I just disagree with the perspective. You're willing to admit the "kill" part but are you willing to admit the "good at combat" part? In the old days, being good at combat was the same as being good at KOing your opponent. It's mostly the newschool notion that these things differ. And really, i'm not bitter about pking or anything, i'm just baffled at your perception of pking, even though you know little about it. What you need is to pk, being good and experienced at safe pvp doesn't fully translate to success while pking, and vice versa. You practically call pkers cheap, not knowing much about pking, and expect not to be criticized for it? When did I generalize that all PKers were cheap? lol. I'm not saying KO's take no skill, I'm just trying to show that PK'ers and safe pvpers require a different skillset. I never claimed I know much about PKing, that's why I made this thread to investigate your opinions.

Sure seems like a topic from your perspective. But in any case, the most important thing you seem to be forgetting is that pking isn't about death matches- as dieing matters, you need to kill other people, not survive their attacks. Thus, as being able to KO your opponent is the most important factor in determining the winner, protection prayers will more or less kill any KO potential. If you can't KO, you can't pk. Like I've already said, this perspective fully admits that PKing is more KO/kill focused than who is good at combat. I'm fine with that, I just disagree with the perspective. You're willing to admit the "kill" part but are you willing to admit the "good at combat" part? The point is that I'd like to point out the distinction, and for that distinction to be recognized. Also, just out of curiosity, exactly what skills are needed for good KOs?

I think your post are mostly about you not thinking like a pk-er. I've always despised safe pvp for being soft and stupid, and you really show why. The calculation is done very one sided and is a BS, but if you consider factors impartially, praying adds around 10% clicking, which isn't that significant. As for cheap shots, it's common knowledge that people pray after getting kills, and there being a huge crowd is highly unlikely(but you wouldn't know these things...uhh...). And yes, being a good pker has NEVER been about being good at DMs. To get kills while pking you need either to KO your opponent or TB them and chase after for 5 minutes. Agreeing to death matches is rare and mostly pointless as people don't value the skill of wasting others food. If you can't understand that notion, there is no point in pking(and remember, pking isn't safe pvp- there is something on the line, thus it would be stupid to let yourself be killed for no reason). If you think you are that good and badass, i'd really love to see you record some dangerous clan wars vids of bridding. Unless you can do that, all you talk about is thin air. I admit that I don't think like a PKer, and I am questioning why PKers think the way they do. I have stated this repeatedly. How is my calculation biased? Be specific. What evidence do you have to say that prayer adds 10% clicking? I'm not talking about PJ's at the end of fights, I'm talking about when pkers set up PJ's for their teammates. No one does dangerous clan wars, for one. More importantly, my skills have no relevance to the topic at hand, either. This isn't about me. For all you care my bridding experience may be effectively 0 and my arguments would still hold water. You increasingly seem to be a PKer who is just bitter and taking things personally, lol.

One thing that would be very nice is if the bow and quiver were separate drops. If the quiver gave the strong arrows independently of the bow, ranged weapons would be much more interesting. Next kind of reminds me of mewtwo - a tall (I assume he's slouched in that pic) thin alien looking thing. It's not as epic as I hoped but still pretty cool

I have some issue with this post: What do you mean by you disagree with my "notion that pking is about killing" and then in the next few lines say "Most pkers ... go for the 'I'll kill you approach'"? This seems pretty contradictory. Did you mean "my notion that pking is about being good at combat?" That would make more sense. But even there, I still disagree with you. Why does my calculation show that prayers are very insignificant? 280 vs 200 APM is a HUGE difference if you want to sustain it for an entire fight. And no, a hybrid that does not pray is much more susceptible to cheap shots like a PJ'ed maul+2gmauls or a PJ'ed rigour void darkbow spec that just straight up one-hit-KO's without protection prayer. If you are in a crowded area it's pretty easy for someone to set up a PJ against you I think I clearly understand your point, and in general I disagree with it because combat should be about who is better and not who should get kills. Again, I think it's less honorable to run from a challenging opponent. But I speak not from a PKer's perspective but as an outsider commenting on PKer mentality. Liike I said before, I think by now it is fair under xpx's perspective to say PKing is about killing and not being better at DM's.

No thanks, I'll trust my experience in this luck based game. I'll leave the calcs to the big names around here. In doing so, recognize that there's a large chance that you're wrong, and that you are willfully ignoring reasonable evidence and something which has been verified with measured empirical data (not opinion). If you admit to that then I have nothing more to say.

Let's see: At fastest speed, a hybrid (not using knives or Karil's bow) has roughly 2.4-3 seconds between each attack/ 1-5) To be able to switch 5 items in one interval (0.6 seconds) (which is ideal because it gives your opponent less time to react), you need at LEAST 500 APM (60 seconds in a minute, 60/0.6 = 100, 100*5=500; at "least" because the interval doesn't start immediately when you start switching) Also within these three seconds you must: 6) Hotkey to mage book 7) Click barrage 8) Right click target (good barraging technique to do so) 9) Click "Cast Ice barrage -->" 10) Click to move your character away 11) Hotkey Prayer Book 12) Click SS 13) Click Prayer 14) Drink a pot So to be the best hybrid you need about 14 actions in 3 seconds, or 280 APM, not to metnion the 500 APM required to pull off the clean 5-switch. In comparison, most professional starcraft players can only sustain an APM of 200. This analysis is pretty crude, but I'm not claiming it to be mathematically rigourous. I am just trying to show exactly how click intensive good hybriding should be. I don't think a lot of people can match this APM so this is what they would cut out: 1-5) To be able to switch 5 items in one interval (0.6 seconds) (which is ideal because it gives your opponent less time to react), you need 500 APM (60 seconds in a minute, 60/0.6 = 100, 100*5=500) Also within these three seconds you must: 6) Hotkey to mage book 7) Click barrage 8) Click "Cast Ice barrage -->" 9) Click to move your character away 10) Drinking a pot This is about 10 actions in 3 seconds, or 200 APM. By cutting out SS flick you take down the APM requirement from 280 to 200; that's pretty dramatic. Moreover, to be truly good at SS flicking, you can't SS flick every hit. You have to sync it so that your protects fall on your opponent's attacks and your SS fall on your attacks. You also have to get all of the prays correctly. This definitely requires more than a day to learn. Even if it takes you shorter, the vast majority of RS will never be able to learn it. Just look at people at Jad, TD's, and Gulega. ___ So really - what it comes down to is that prayers definitely do make you better at combat - PKers just choose not to fight people who pray. But in a deathmatch or 1v1, praying definitely counts. The way I see it, running from a fight should be much more dishonorable because you're just going for easier pickings. What it comes down to is whether you want to be better at combat or want to have fun killing. Based on what I understand from the Pkers' explanation of why not to pray, I should be able to reasonably say that PKing is about killing and NOT about being better at combat.

I like Nuke's idea but I doubt jagex would do it.

Also, GS aren't strictly "better", they are just better for people who can't switch fast enough with the whip to make full use of its speed. Whip is better ideal DPS against TD's than GS. This reasoning totally ignores the other alternatives. We care about what weapons are better than others in reasonable scenarios. If a weapon is not the best in basically any reasonable scenario, it is effectively useless. You did not offer a comparison of whip to GS, just stating the merits of GS. I have already showed you a comparison of whip to GS and it clearly shows whip is better: the speed makes up for the strength and accuracy of GS AND more. whip is cheaper; whip is one-handed; whip retains its value better; whip has significantly better raw dps; whip has better DPS than GS EVEN IN SITUATIONS WHERE GS IS SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER. Let's not forget that chaotic weapons totally outclass the GS and, ignoring the fact that chaotics are a sunk cost, take the same (if not less) time to obtain when dungeoneering properly. For the reasons I have explained throughout this thread and above, whip and chaotics are significantly better for PvP, training, all MHing except for people who are bad with switching at TD's and really low levels who do sara. Cheaper and more easily accessible weapons are better for specs.

To highlight: GS are WORSE than defender+whip for 75 defense with normal super pots even at <10% whip accuracy. There is basically NO reasonable situation, other than TD's which I have mentioned and explained, in which GS are better. Whip is better DPS than Godsword against Graar which is in the eyes of many the most important pvm boss. GS might be better for sara too but what kind of level 75 noob does sara lol. Whip has better DPS against a person with equal levels/gear and a godsword than vice versa. GS also suffer from higher veng kickback. GS also leave no option to be one-handed. Whip is superior for pvp. The only thing you can argue about GS is that they have higher variability in damage, but you should be using other weapons to KO such as DDS or korasi. AGS is only useful because it is both a main weapon and spec weapon but the GS and AGS spec are too weak compared to their counterparts nowadays That's fine by me; it matters little that the ignorant remain ignorant but rather the ones who have yet to form an opinion form the more accurate one. I don't like it when wrong statements remain unchallenged. I have nothing wrong with you doing something; for all I care you can use bronze scimitars to train. Please just recognize that you are not training in even a reasonably optimal manner.

Good thing I have a huge stock of godsword blades :thumbsup: