TheAncient

Why not? What skills are involved in pvp then? Will a hybrid that uses prayers well really have the same win/loss ratio as someone who doesn't? If I can extrapolate correctly, PKers knowingly give their opponents a chance to win the chance to win in return. This is the PKer mentality and why Pkers find it dishonorable to safe. I disagree with this mentality because I think there are things that you can do in RS combat that make luck less important of a factor. If that's your philosophy, you can go to grave with it, but don't expect to be fought fairly if you do. I'd be very much content running on full food and safing(in addition to praying, ofcource) every time i see you in wilderness if you insist on praying. There is no need to waste my time and money on someone who fights not to die. I fight to win. I am not sure if they will have the same win:loss ratio, but i'm 100% sure a better skilled pker will be making more money if they don't pray(mostly because they use less supplies). If you don't give your opponent a chance to win, there is no reason to expect others to give you a chance, and if everyone uses cheap tactics on you, pking will be very boring. People pk mostly because of fun, and long fight that end with no winner are the least enjoyable, and praying really creates all those situations. Really, the best skiller analogy i can make to praying in nonmulty is people crashing you in a nonmulty training spot- it doesn't benefit either player and makes training more frustrating. People do it out of convenience, just as people would pray in order to not die. If everyone played to not die, wilderness would be very boring. I never saw PKing as a way of money-making. Including EP farming time I don't think it's very efficient. I see and understand your perspective. But if this is the case, why do people complain about weapons being overpowered? Although they can still KO you, they arent "overpowered" as long as you pray. Prayers aren't overpowered either; it's still pretty easy to die even if you have like 2 seconds of lag and are praying. Even with you praying and safing shark-brew, it still might be possible to KO you if you don't retaliate at all, have no healing from SS, etc. provided I have the right gear and stuff on me. just guessing here, but with good luck a dscim spec followed by a barrage stacked with a claws then two maul hits should be able to KO someone safing (the barrage makes it so that you might switch to range gear -> claws might be more accurate if you leave range gear on)

Whip/ee or eee is better Yeah, these are just semantics and there's basically no point in arguing past that point. I already admitted they are partially useful for some people at TD's. Still, I am saying they are "useless" to show exactly how limited these scenarios are. GS have like one main reasonable use, and that's about it. Saying that they're useful gives other people the impression that a GS is a reasonable purchase for a noob, which it is not.

Why not? What skills are involved in pvp then? Will a hybrid that uses prayers well really have the same win/loss ratio as someone who doesn't? If I can extrapolate correctly, PKers knowingly give their opponents a chance to win the chance to win in return. This is the PKer mentality and why Pkers find it dishonorable to safe. I disagree with this mentality because I think there are things that you can do in RS combat that make luck less important of a factor.

Because, as you said, when everyone knows how to prayer switch perfectly(and people will learn in a giffie), it doesn't benefit anyone. Why would we all agree upon something that doesn't benefit anyone? sounds stupid. And not as though it doesn't benefit anyone, it will make pking much more costly and make getting kills much harder. Do you want an empty wilderness? The dishonor of prayers really needs a real pker to know. If you aren't a pker, it's seemingly hard to understand the honor behind not praying in nonmulty. Again, I have issue with this statement because I just don't see that true in most pking vids and in my experience. By your reasoning, PKing should take absolutely no skill and people should expect a 50/50% ratio against people with their own gear. So what's the point? Taken to the extreme, why should we even use food? As a non-pker, I'm really interested in this reasoning so please expand. I'm not trying to be confrontational in saying that - I am actually just interested.

How and why is prayer switching cheap? It only prolongs the fight if both people know how to do it well. But that's not true. If it were deemed honorable, trust me, everyone would be an ace in prayer switching. It's not really a divine skill, even though you might think you are divine for mastering it. The fact that people have to take time and learn it shows that it is a skill. I'm not saying it's an amazing skill, I'm just saying it's clearly something that advantages you so why not do it.

cool opinion bro can i get a vid of you ss flicking against a tribrid Thanks for the educated response, and no you can't. Then I have no reason to believe that you are right, lol.

cool opinion bro can i get a vid of you ss flicking against a tribrid without any of your protect prays being late How and why is prayer switching cheap? It only prolongs the fight if both people know how to do it well. But that's not true.

Assuming 50% win ratio, explain how Taco Limey has gotted basically 50+ chaotic mauls and staves at 97 dungeoneering Luck? Taco Limey is over rated, and over hyped. Pretty sure he runs around with a divine now anyways. Plus he dies quite a lot too, but he of course doesn't show deaths in his videos. You want to see a less douchey pker look at sparc mac, he actually has videos where he shows himself using statius and a divine, and being koed by a kid in rune, you can't say that this game isn't luck. I'm not saying luck isn't involved, but you shouldn't say skill isn't involved either. People are able to consistently get over 50/50 win loss ratio even using the same gear. I know for example I am able to do this. And no, SS flick along with mage/melee pray does take skill, xpx. Even if you think it is a small amount of skill, it is not small for the vast majority of PKers There should e a reason behind honor, and the reason behind not praying for hybrids is dubious in my opinion

Assuming 50% win ratio, explain how Taco Limey has gotted basically 50+ chaotic mauls and staves at 97 dungeoneering Try to do that against a good hybrid when you're switching 5 items, drinking pots, eating food, etc. every two seconds

So then you just choose to be ignorant; like I said, experiences can lead to incorrect conclusions many, many times. Some people are willing to accept new conclusions in the face of evidence, some are not.

Prayer takes skill; watch a hybrid who knows how to use overheads quickly enough to a hybrid who just leaves SS on. Korasi sword has the highest expected damage per attack, as far as I know. It is completely free, requires just a few quests, and is still more powerful than weapons that cost 30-60M.

of course, it's natural not to like to admit that you're wrong. i have accepted that i was wrong about korasi just like you have accepted you were wrong about gs. the fact that you have to resort to that sort of personal affront irrelevant to the topic at hand shows this point.

Experiences lie, math does not; we are subject to a lot of sampling biases For example, my experiences told me that magic defense affected Korasi sword strength. It does not. To be completely fair, like i mentioned previously - GS have SOME use - maybe like one (TD's if you're too slow at switching whip to be effective). But for all intents and purposes it is effectively never #1 at anything else. It makes sense to think of it as basically useless.

No, I incorporated GS accuracy. (9.7% on GS; ~8.7% on whip) Nice of you to assume that I didn't, though. Actions speak louder than words

Even at 10% accuracy, against a potted praying level 75 player with 1000 defense, whip has 5.7 dps against 5.2 DPS of a GS. try harder! you can do it!

What advantage? What case is it the best? Provide evidence It's called experience :thumbup: I've given as much evidence as you have for the DPS, which is none so far. I'm also not going to pretend I know how the system in RS works either, so I won't ever be doing 'calculations' Godswords have their uses, and you for some odd reason just can't admit that. They are useless to you...they ARE NOT useless for everybody else. Let's say hypothetically I am wrong. At worst, I have reduced the use of GS to maybe like 2 uses at best. About as useful as a CLS. Worthless? Pretty much

Izenheim, do the DPS calculation. Thanks. What advantage? What case is it the best? Provide evidence

If they KS, use pray.

I never said it was relevant to low level dungeoneers. I made the claim for myself. And there is nothing prohibiting anyone from being my dungeoneering level aside from training. This is not the same as making hundreds of thousands of dollars which some people cannot even do in a lifetime. Regardless, address the fact that a competent dungeoneer can also earn a chaotic in the same time, if not faster, as making enough money for a GS. AGAIN, the main point has been totally ignored. GS are bad for DPS. I am arguing on your terms just to show you the extent of which GS are useless. It is undeniable that they are bad, so I am just trying to show you how bad they are.

Yeah your first chaotic sucks but they get exponentially easier. High DG levels are available to basically anyone combat 100+ who can DG. I think it's fair to assume a base level of competency here - I'm not going to set my assumptions to be unreasonably low. Fast, efficient floors are not by definition limited to high level dungeoneers. And you're ignoring the fact that it is still fast. I just showed you the best case scenario, and it is indeed outrageously fast. If people DG with competent people and not 117, you can average 40 minutes a floor and ~60-70K xp each, or 20 hours to get a chaotic. This can still be done in 2 days. Assuming a low level makes ~500K an hour, this is still faster than getting a BGS, let alone AGS/SGS. AGAIN, all of this is irrelevant since in addition to all of these points, GS are just BAD for dps.

huur duur armor isn't reflected in combat level lets not use armor

Is that a joke or willful ignorance to prove your point? I'm willing to bet you 500M that I can get a chaotic within one day, with a full night's sleep. It's easy. With the best teams you can consistently get 20 minute floors, at 200K xp each. That's 600K xp an hour. At 105 DG, I can get 130K a floor at roughly 30 minutes a floor, which is ~250K an hour. That's 8 hours. Even for low levels, whip+defender can be comparable to, most likely better than, BGS for dps even against moderate defense. Whip is much cheaper which is a significant consideration for lower levels. [/hide] Heh...you missed the point there...didn't ya? To be fair, the fact that chaotic weaponry is a sunk cost is irrelevant or inconsequential. It's not as if you are able to utilize the value of the weapon in addition to the combat utility of the weapon. You can only have one at a time. Moreover, your main melee weapon is not something you will sell in the short run. Also, looking at the rate at which GS are deflating in price, I would hardly say they keep their value well. At any rate, the main downsides of GS have not been refuted. GS is terrible for basically everything.

Is that a joke or willful ignorance to prove your point? I'm willing to bet you 500M that I can get a chaotic within one day, with a full night's sleep. It's easy. With the best teams you can consistently get 20 minute floors, at 200K xp each. That's 600K xp an hour. At 105 DG, I can get 130K a floor at roughly 30 minutes a floor, which is ~250K an hour. That's 8 hours. Do some research before you call someone ignorant Even for low levels, whip+defender can be comparable to, most likely better than, BGS for dps even against moderate defense. Whip is much cheaper which is a significant consideration for lower levels. _______ I just did a calculation for whip+defender vs BGS in pvp assuming level 75 stats, nooby gear. Even at ~30% accuracy, whip has a noticeable DPS advantage - 18.37 - versus BGS at 17.65. so lol. it is useless even as a non-spec wep. i guess the ONLY non-spec gs has is TD's if you're too slow to switch with whip _____ It isn't, lol, in fact weapons are much more diverse than before. before it was whip was superior to everything and now you have to consider CLS/Maul/Rapier and not to mention the huge diversity in spec weapons.

Dragon scim is probably better

Alright, godswords may not be in the top 10 (I just threw that out there). But for people who don't have chaotics, they don't "suck". I ignored the word "primary" because there's no reason to include that limitation. Outside of duelling, there is no restriction that prevents you from speccing. You can't just ignore the spec aspects, or else BGS=ZGS=AGS=SGS. Even if you include the word primary, whip is still better normal (non-spec) DPS in like 90% of cases, even for lower levels. It's also cheaper, 1-handed, has less overkill loss, etc. Also, ZS, SS, KS are better in certain cases.